Design your own tank

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KiranM
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by KiranM »

My wet dreams is more for the round to be used by Arjun or any IA tank.

Arjun and other tanks to use an intelligent munition. An inbuilt chip on the shell will be programmed to be switched between HE and Frag mode.

HE mode:
To be used like any regular HE round.

Fragmentation mode:
In case of frag mode, the LRF from Arjun will pass the distance of target to shell.
The gunner will have option to set the burst -12/-6/-4/-2/+2/+4/+6/+12 inches from target distance.
In case of defilade attack on a trench. Tank detects that a trench is 0.5km ahead. Sets the shell to burst in frag mode +6inches from target distance and 1 feet above.
Similarly, shell can also be used to attack opponents inside a sangar/ bunker. The shell should fly through window or opening and detonate inside.
Same concept can be used to target low flying helicopters, UAVs, etc.

For Armour penetration;
Add a cap to the shell. Cap made up of Copper plate at the base and a nose/ probe in front. This contraption will make the round work like HEAT.

The muniton by itself will be expensive than regular HE, Frag and HEAT rounds. But economy of scale should make the munition affordable. Not to forget the flexibility of using the same round for any situation. Thus a tank need not run out of a particular round in the heat of battle.

This round will be in addition to APFSDS and HESH rounds which will function as special rounds against enemy MBTs and fortifications respectively.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by sohamn »

My Dear Manish,
Good to see you researched in wiki but you should have researched further and if you do then you will get your answers.

If fuel cell or battery powered tank is so practical then why do you think no army in the world is adopting it.
Do me a favour -
get a list of all fuel cell cars and battery power cars available in the market today.
Then see why these vehicles are not so popular.
And when you apply these disadvantages in a tank it only gets magnified because of the terrain and weather conditions in which they operate.

Lets take the example of nissan leaf. It is a electric powered car. Nissan has put a lot of research to develop a remotely practical car. But let us see the specs


Driving condition ------------ Speed --- Temp---- Range -- Airconditioner
________________________mph km/h °F °C --- mi km
Cruising (ideal condition)____38 - 61 -- 68 20 -- 138 222 __ Off
City traffic________________24 - 39 -- 77 25 -- 105 169 __ Off
Highway________________ _55 - 89 -- 95 35 -- 70 110 __ In use
Winter, stop-and-go traffic__15 - 24 -- 14 10 -- 62 100 __ Heater on
Heavy stop-and-go traffic___ 6 - 10 -- 86 30 -- 47 76 __ In use

Now do you see how the specs varied with diff conditions.

Moreover to charge Nissan Leaf to 100% without damaging the battery it takes 8 hours straight. Therefore you can charge it at home or office only.
And you have to make sure that the battery charge doesn't drop below 20% otherwise the battery can be damaged.
And because of the batteries the weight is 1600 kgs quite high for a hatchback.

If you apply this tech to a tank it will be a miserable faliure. Its better to recognize potential problems in your design when others are trying to point it out to you rather trying to defend yourself. I think you agree deep down that your idea is not feasible.
The objective of this forum is to come up with a design that can be developed and used by humans in planet earth in the next 10-20 years. Think that your job is to present a design to DRDO and get it approved. How will you do it?
With your idea, Buddy, you will be denied entry in DRDO for the next 50 yrs. :wink:
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by bapatnikhil »

shiv wrote:
bapatnikhil wrote:My whole point was that unless we have a complete system of transportation converted to Hydrogen, it is not practical to run tanks on it.
This is how I see it. This is a forum where people are allowed to have ideas. But a person who has an idea will have to come up with answers to quetions about how and why the idea is better than existing technology.

I think one thing that is missed in some discussions is that we all know very well that is is possible for humans to eat nails and razor blades with food and survive. So why don't more people do that? The point I am making is that there is a huge gap between what is theoretically possible and what is desirable and implementable.

If you are talking about a "pilot project" to introduce Hydrogen fuel cell buses in Bangalore, Kerala - then experimentation, trial and error are fine. But if you are talking about a force of 500 or 1000 tanks and armored vehicles being used by our fathers and brothers to fight an invading army Chinese army that does not give a flying fuk about fuel cells and uses dirty diesel in large quantities to overrun 5000 sq km of India territory - one has to think whether dreams about tomorrow's technology can win today's war? We can't say "Oh we have the infrastrcuture only to fuel up 20 vehicles. But he Chinese attacked us with 500, so we lost"

Research and war are two different things. Ideally a warfighting machine has to work perfectly and do what is demanded of it. If you build it out of technology that you don't have or are yet to develop - you have to be able to say why the technology will work on the battlefield, and answer questions about it. I think the same arguments/hurdles have come up in the LCA thread, the FGFA thread and the deign your fighter thread.
Thanks Shiv ji. I know that. I was just thrown off by the al gore comment...
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

With tanks being protected by armor that is 500 to 800 mm thick and reactive armor to boot, they are virtually indestructible machines and require tremendous firepower to "halt them in their tracks". Arm them with a heavy caliber gun and they become a fearsome and nearly unstoppable weapon. It is not surprising that Pakistani armor being launched at Longewala were planning to reach "Ramgarh for breakfast and Jaisalmer for lunch"

see map:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Museu ... lmer08.jpg

Of course the Pakistani would have been aided by the presence of a road - they were planning to drive down the road and not cross country. A column of tanks going down a road is difficult to stop - especially if they have broken though defences and are zipping at 40 kmph. By the time anyone can communicate the news to the authorities and react 3 hours would have passed and the tanks will be 120 km inside Indian territory. the possibility of a powerful Pakistani tank thrust reaching New Delhi is not pure hot air. he story of Asal Uttar shows what happened when the Pakistanis tried that. Providence and valour were both on our side.

Here is the story of that battle as an illustration of how dangerous tanks can be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHSVJNNsQ4U

However tanks have become ehavier and heavier as anti tank weapons have become more powerful, accurate and innovative.

As I pointed out earlier - there is nothing like tanks for an offensive - a thrust into enemy territory, but defence against tanks does not necessarily need tanks alone. Light mobile vehicles, men with anti-tank weapons and aircraft/helos can all be used in defending against tanks.

In my mind an attack into Pakistan is already well planned for using T90 and perhaps the Arjun. I was thinking in terms of armor for use in the North east, east and Aksai Chin. I am talking about mobility across rivers, mountain roads and plains that are 5 km up in altitude. Taking tanks up to these altiudes is possible and needs to be done in peacetime. But anyone who places several dozen or several hundred tanks up near Aksai Chin is not doing it for time-pass. He is planning an offensive.

In any case (I maybe wrong) we have to look at some lighter armor that is more easily transportable to high altitude and can negotiate mountain roads if need be. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

I just wonder how far we can go with composite armor?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_armour
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

this is a total random thought...i dont have any backing up for this....bt what if we use single crystal technology for armor.....its costly bt pretty strong....just my thoughts!!
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

KiranM wrote: An inbuilt chip on the shell will be programmed to be switched between HE and Frag mode.
Unless I am mistaken, the basic design/construction of a HE shell is different from that of a fragmentation shell.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by SaiK »

http://frontierindia.net/the-kanchan-armor

The kanchan armor next generation could be thought off, may be with a artifical spider silk kind of structure for the main all composite tank construction.

Reduced metal and more composite plastic especially woven threads to make the material light, while kanchan's RHA could be replaced with a silky-metal woven composite material to make it even lighter.

Need to learn lot from spider silk on the strength using nano technologies, that I am sure DRDO must be doing in some ways.

some 5/6 years back nat geo had a program on secret spider silk GMO goats that milk genetically modified spider genes with thik spider fibre content milk. Mostly these goats escaped PETA folks eyes, under secret khan labs.

They showed a stunning lightweight bullet proof jacket for special ops. Some similar techniques and genetic modifications can happen with ants as well for creating all the tank mechanicial parts.

nano tech synthetic materials is the way to go
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by SaiK »

jee.. i could google that damn info even now. It is still available.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... pider.html
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by Singha »

>> but defence against tanks does not necessarily need tanks alone. Light mobile vehicles, men with anti-tank weapons and aircraft/helos

but of all these anti-tank methods, it is tanks themselves that need the least amt of people, vehicles, C3I networking, cost, infra to be effective. a regiment of heavy tanks on the offensive will need a awful number of ATGM teams, spotters, UAV feeds, indirect artillery, helicopters/CAS to stop if you do not want to use tanks to head them off and lack in the kind of pervasive (and very costly) C3I networking and 'smart weapons' the US army wants to do - we cannot invest on that level in these 'green and lean' solutions to be as effective as the US army with light forces.

less resources you need to use - less logistical train/dispersion - less chance of enemy disrupting logistics/less need for force protection for these in form of people and SAMs/IAF.

the CBU105 purchase and perhaps Prithvi and trajectory corrected bomblets for Pinaka are attempts to solve the tank problem in depth areas without needing tanks ofcourse. but we need a lot more.

when "Megatron" comes calling, do you strike with 50 bumblebees or deploy Optimus Prime? :twisted:
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by Bala Vignesh »

^^singhaji,
Way to put it. But the thing is that megatron will have one hell of a time crossing the terrain in his transformed state(tank), where as Optimus will not have much of a problem in his transformed state(truck).
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

cross post from armoured vehicles thread....

Nice read...

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/t ... 69.article
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

manish.rastogi wrote:cross post from armoured vehicles thread....

Nice read...

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/t ... 69.article
That is indeed a nice read. However may I point out that it is impolite to merely posta link and say nice read and leave it to people to click and find out. Some articles need not interest everyone so it is worth putting one or two quotes of what the article says. I suppose you read this:
This has an electric transmission system, six wheels driven by electric motors, and two engines providing the power.
and
diesel engines are likely to provide the power source for some time yet. ’We haven’t reached the limit of what can be done in the mechanical diesel arena,
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

will be careful next time sir.....:)
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

Here's an article about a new electric car........ http://www.topspeed.com/cars/jaguar/201 ... 97047.html
You can go
for 68 miles just on electric juice
or 560 if you let the gasworks
recharge the Li-ion battery pack
on the go.

The C-X75 – At a Glance DESIGN – A celebration of 75 years of beautiful, fast Jaguars which points the way to a new design language PERFORMANCE – 0-100kph (62mph) in 3.4 seconds, top speed of 330kph (205mph) and 80-145kph (50-90mph) in just 2.3 seconds PROPULSION SYSTEM – A Range-Extended Electric Vehicle (RE-EV) using a unique combination of electric motors and micro gas- turbines to increase its range to 900km (560 miles) EMISSIONS – A zero tailpipe emissions range of 110km (68 miles) while running solely on battery power SUSTAINABILITY – By capitalizing on its plug-in charge capability the C-X75 will produce just 28 grams of CO2 per kilometer on the EU test cycle CONSTRUCTION – Jaguar’s advanced lightweight aluminum construction techniques provide great weight-saving and economy benefits. Additionally, up to 50 percent of the metal content is recycled ACTIVE AERODYNAMICS – Drag coefficient of 0.32Cd and active downforce created through the use of an underbody Venturi THEATER – A dramatic entrance to the car is created by striking electro-luminescent wire lighting which alters to enhance the driving experience UNIQUE USER INTERFACE – The touchscreen Jaguar Co- Pilot interface manages the information workload by predicting the needs of the driver BESPOKE MATERIALS – Interior seamlessly blends traditional, hand-tailored leathers with textured neoprene panels and two different aluminum finishes
What i want to say is that the electric concept has the necessary potential and using micro gas turbines is quite awesome!!...... P.S.-the car is a sexy beast and looks gorgeous!!
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by Tanaji »

Manish,

I think the issue is that you are talking of designing a tank using tech that is 25 tears in the future. Others are designing 5 year lead time stuff.

If you look at it objectively, you are suggesting an alternative power plant without really explaining what advantages it brings to the table over current ICE ones. Simply using a new technology for the heck of it serves no purpose. A tech should be used only if it provides certain advantages in terms of reliability, logistics, efficiency or firepower.

As far as the Jag is concerned, please compare the weight of a Jag with that of a fully armored tank and then see if it works in terms of range. Forget the Jag: a lot of higher end cars come in armored versions, find out what power plant they use. Hint: they are either V8 or V10s, due to the bullet proofing. Now thats for a CAR... imagine a tank with a cannon on it. And then see if electric works.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

^^^sir i have many times stated the advantage of the tech i am proposing....and sir nowadays tech moves quite fast....today this tech is a concept car,...and possibly it could be common in 6-7 years.....also i am a firm believer that defense systems needs to be at cutting edge tech!!i see my design to start getting in production after atleast 8-9 years.....so definately it seems possible....with the jag concept i think we dont even need the generator vehicles i said previously....also i agree that jag and tank could not be compared..,...but definately as the size increases....the electric system's size would also increase to support it!!
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

manish.rastogi wrote:^^^sir i have many times stated the advantage of the tech i am proposing....and sir nowadays tech moves quite fast....today this tech is a concept car,...and possibly it could be common in 6-7 years.....also i am a firm believer that defense systems needs to be at cutting edge tech!!i see my design to start getting in production after atleast 8-9 years.....so definately it seems possible....with the jag concept i think we dont even need the generator vehicles i said previously....also i agree that jag and tank could not be compared..,...but definately as the size increases....the electric system's size would also increase to support it!!
Indian defence tech is at least 30 years behind the US in many areas. This is a hard fact that Indians must understand no matter how hurt and upset they feel when they hear it. If the US still does not have something how do you think India will get it without getting to where the US was 10 years ago at least?

It is good to have dreams but dreams must be tempered by reality - or you may wake up. Nobody gives technology. It has to be developed in house. And our in house technology is 20-30 years behind the US in critical areas.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

^^^sir comparing ourselves with americans or any others really irk me.....i dont understand why we look upto them they are definately not gods......i totally believe that we have the potential and innovation to catch up.....i maybe wrong but at no cost i am going to let ourselves be compared to americans or any others!!my mom says 'hame kisi ki HIRAS nahi karni chahiye'....and i totally agree!!.....also are all the new techs and innovations in various fields come from america.....??
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

manish.rastogi wrote:^^^sir comparing ourselves with americans or any others really irk me.....i dont understand why we look upto them they are definately not gods......i totally believe that we have the potential and innovation to catch up.....i maybe wrong but at no cost i am going to let ourselves be compared to americans or any others!!my mom says 'hame kisi ki HIRAS nahi karni chahiye'....and i totally agree!!.....also are all the new techs and innovations in various fields come from america.....??
Correct. But India has not designed even one diesel powered tank engine yet and you are dreaming about stuff that has not been done anywhere in the world. I believe I have been kind to you because you have already put your age on here. You are actually talking rubbish with your designs because they cannot be implemented. Are we supposed to feel sorry and say "Oh he is a bacchha - he is allowed to dream".

You have a lot of dreams but you have no idea of how it can be done. You are only good at arguing - not at answering questions as to how your dreams can be achieved. For that you have a readymade defence "i am young onlee and I want gurus to comment on what i have written"

Well what you have written is science fiction. It cannot be done with until the technology is developed. And you are not writing one word about how and where the technology will come from. I am being blunt. But honest. People have so far been kind to you. If you had not revealed your age as 17 you would have been blasted for writing stupid stuff by now. Some of the stuff you have suggested is both silly and ignorant.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

i never thought that revealing my age woule cause others to treat me as different.....and also i would like to be treated as an equal and bashed rather than left out due to my age......for all the kindness from anyone i am greatly thankful.....but for once and for all please don't consider my age while posting.....
I agree that i don't know in detail how my dreams could be implemented and for that i would blame lack of technical knowledge....which i am trying to gain but that doesnt mean that i could not give suggestions which could be used.....i am open to all the questions and criticism shot towards me.....and i would keep trying to answer them to the best of my capability.....also be honest and ask yourself how many times when you saw my posts you thought about them seriously....i know my thoughts at first glance may look shit....but they are not!!i have many times said that the tech for my thought is developed but needs further development.....i have given various links in which there are clear examples of the tech which is like less charging time, long range,reliability and others!!if anyone would have seriously given even a brief reading of those links....i am pretty sure one would have got what i said!!

Now i dont want to look like an arguer but what am i supposed to do when everyone asks the same questions and ask me to reply even when i have given one in my above posts!!

I have no grudge or anger towards anyone but just a humble request that please treat me as an equal rather than a baccha!!
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by Jeff Wickline »

shiv wrote:
--snip snip ---
You are actually talking rubbish with your designs because they cannot be implemented.
---- snip snip ---
You have a lot of dreams but you have no idea of how it can be done.
---- snip snip ----
Well what you have written is science fiction. It cannot be done with until the technology is developed. And you are not writing one word about how and where the technology will come from.
Well, Manish do not get discouraged by the reprimand. The seniors are concerned that you should not waste your and their time by floating outlandish ideas .
At the same time, I request you to take the criticism in the right spirit. Do not get demoralized. Do keep on thinking creatively.
Innovations sometimes do come out of wild ideas, when adequately tempered with experience and engineering calculations. Sometimes wild ideas may take centuries before they are actually realized.
My humble suggestions: Keep thinking creatively, keep reading and do not get tempted to communicate an idea before you have done your home work and checked the idea from different POV's. Meanwhile, let us keep getting soaked with ideas from the seniors.
I am sure, this forum would get good innovative and robust ideas from you soon.
Cheers from one nuby to another.
(Wildly OT: Manish may be amused to know that when we were in our early twenties, some of my friends formed a group called "Patents and Patents Unlimited", mimicking the name of a reputed IPR firm. This group encouraged thinking about impossible things and gadgets. Alas it lasted only a few years but probably catalogued hundreds of outlandish thingy's.)
Last edited by Jeff Wickline on 18 Dec 2010 21:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

manish.rastogi wrote: Now i dont want to look like an arguer but what am i supposed to do when everyone asks the same questions and ask me to reply even when i have given one in my above posts!!

I have no grudge or anger towards anyone but just a humble request that please treat me as an equal rather than a baccha!!
What are you supposed to do when everyone asks the same questions?
Select one of the following
1) Argue more
2) Write posts that give no answers
3) Answer the questions.

Would you have to ask mummy to help answer this one? Sorry. You want to be treated like everyone else then get yourself up to speed and put your money where your mouth is and answer them rather than arguing. If you don't have he answers say "I don't know".

But if you can't answer questions about your ideas it means that they are not going to be accepted as workable. That's really tough but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

^shiv sir i don't think anyone would expect from anyone to give the same answers again and again....i have given my answers everytime but instead of questioning my answers, many times same questions crop up.....please tell what to do in these situations??.....i was and will always answer questions to the best i can....if you would like to see i always try to get more stuff in my posts to back me up,i never argue like getting admant on my points....i always am willing to change......but i need logic so that i could see that my thoughts are not viable!!
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

Jeff Wickline wrote: Well, Manish do not get discouraged by the reprimand. The seniors are concerned that you should not waste your and their time by floating outlandish ideas .
At the same time, I request you to take the criticism in the right spirit. Do not get demoralized. Do keep on thinking creatively.
Innovations sometimes do come out of wild ideas, when adequately tempered with experience and engineering calculations. Sometimes wild ideas may take centuries before they are actually realized.
My humble suggestions: Keep thinking creatively, keep reading and do not get tempted to communicate an idea before you have done your home work and checked the idea from different POV's. Meanwhile, let us keep getting soaked with ideas from the seniors.
I am sure, this forum would get good innovative and robust ideas from you soon.
Cheers from one nuby to another.
(Wildly OT: Manish may be amused to know that when we were in our early twenties, some of my friends formed a group called "Patents and Patents Unlimited", mimicking the name of a reputed IPR firm. This group encouraged thinking about impossible things and gadgets. Alas it lasted only a few years but probably catalogued hundreds of outlandish thingy's.)
thanks jeff.....don't worry i am not discouraged by this.....with there posts also i got to learn something.....also i always try to make my thoughts as realistic as possible!!

The reason i put my thoughts here is i believe that people here are more knowledgable than me.....i would get different views of what people think of my ideas and to garner constructive criticism to further refine my idea and my thinking process!!
Cheers.....
(OT:THAT sounds quite interesting,they would have had quite a time of life during that time)
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by Tanaji »

manish.rastogi wrote:!i see my design to start getting in production after atleast 8-9 years.....so definately it seems possible....with the jag concept i think we dont even need the generator vehicles i said previously....
First, stop calling anyone "sir". I dont think anyone is asking for it

Secondly, I am guessing your background is not in a science stream. This is not a drawback at all, but it requires a bit more effort and reading from you.

What others are trying to tell you is that you should :
1. Read more
2. When you suggest something, think of the possible ramification of the suggestion

Electric vehicles are only now coming into main stream. The ones that are on the market and have significant range (think Toyota Prius type hybrids) are regenerative ones that use a ICE along with a battery. Pure electrics currently do not have the enough range even for cars let alone heavy vehicles. That may change in the future, but no one has yet figured out a way to store electricity in small form factors that can be recharged quickly, give the same capacity over a range of operating temperatures and retain capacity over the years. IT may happen but it is 10 years or so away before being productionized.

As far as cutting edge goes: have you wondered what processors the most modern of aircraft use? Are they the latest Intel ones? Nope, they are the old 385 and 486 ones. Why do you think it is? Surely it is not a question of cost... rather it has to do with reliability and the benefit aspect. There is no benefit to jumping to the latest processor when the current one is good enough. A similar argument can be made for your engines.

Had you prefaced your post saying 25 years in the future, no one would have batted a eyelid. But the reason people are contradicting you is you claim it is possible in 5-10 years when all available evidence suggests it does not.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by darshhan »

As far as cutting edge goes: have you wondered what processors the most modern of aircraft use? Are they the latest Intel ones? Nope, they are the old 385 and 486 ones. Why do you think it is? Surely it is not a question of cost... rather it has to do with reliability and the benefit aspect. There is no benefit to jumping to the latest processor when the current one is good enough. A similar argument can be made for your engines.
Absolutely right.The latest processors are simply not proven enough.

Manish as far as electric engines in vehicles are concerned , militaries around the world will only accept them once they have been proven conclusively in civilian roles.Electric vehicles have just started appearing for now that too in American/western/Japanese markets.For now they are too costly,take hrs to charge,lifecycle costs are virtually unknown and weight of the battery pack is a huge concern.Then you will have to factor their ruggedness in combat environments.Most of these electric vehicles use some form of lithium ion cells.Ironining out all these issues and then observing performance of electric vehicles will easily take 10-15 yrs at the least(for pure electric vehicles).

Hybrids might be inducted in limited numbers by some militaries earlier.But even these will be for wheeled vehicles.I doubt if any country will apply any sort of electric engine technology to tanks anytime soon.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by darshhan »

This might be OT.I would like to point out another thing.Most of the times we try to follow America as far as defense production and research is concerned.Our reaction is if they can do it then so can we.If they have stealth then we will also develop it.So I will try to explain the American approach.First DARPA/AirForce labs/National labs/private companies etc start developing a technology(For eg stealth,AESA Radar etc).Only when they achieve closure on such a technology project , the services start the process of ordering products which employ that technology.Then the private companies lockheed,raytheon etc can license that technology and start developing that product.This approach ensures that all the building blocks are well in place before the product development is even started.It is a very pragmatic approach in my opinion which tends to save both time and money once the product development commences.In nutshell Defense procurement is seldom held hostage to basic research which is what happens in India(cause of most of the delays).For example before F-117 the first stealth aircraft was developed DARPA had initiated a program to validate the stealth concepts under a super secret program.I think the name of the program was "Have Blue".Once the technology was demonstrated it took less than a decade to get the F-117 flying.

There are times when US didn't take the same path and they had to suffer from same delays.For eg F-22 and F-35.F-22 took around 25 years to develop and finally less than 200 are being inducted.Something similar is happening to F-35.

In our country however research only starts when services lay down their specifications of a product.Majority of delays can be traced to this approach.For eg. even as AMCA project has commenced , I do not think DRDO is anywhere close to mastering stealth.

Hence the better approach for designing a new tank or aircraft would be to use what is available now instead of hoping that a new technology appears from somewhere resulting in super duper weapon system.Use evolutionary approach to achieve what is achievable.

I am not saying that advanced research should not be done.In fact we should focus much more on research providing more funds and manpower.I am only saying that Defense procurement should never be held hostage to basic research.This is especially true for our country which faces a continuously worsening security situation.What good is a revolutionary weapons system if it is not available in time or adequate numbers.

Therefore while designing a tank(or any other weapon system) which is supposed to be ready by the end of this decade we should be pragmatic and use only those technologies that are available to us now.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by Virupaksha »

Darshann,
There are some projects in DRDO which are for development of basic sciences. I remember to have read somewhere that DRDO spends are tiny single digit percentage(dont remember exact) for exactly those kind of projects. But I would hazard a wise a$$ guess that as of today they would be more towards applied science than pure basic science.

What you said would imply that you are ready to spend on a r&d project before you know whether you need it or not.

How much % of money can be spent on doing that type of research when we are not yet in a position to develop all the sciences which we needed like yesterday.

Do we start working on exotic metals for future when we are not able to build a decent engine?

When you are at the cutting edge of research and can spend 8-9% of GDP on defence and all your population is well fed like the US was at that time, those kind of "projects without need" can be done.

When in technology you are 20 years behind in most techs, the luxury of "projects without need" is too rich.

If only the lions, princes and rajas decide to not eat $40B, but spend them on DRDO which gets a measly $1.5B
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by srai »

bmallick wrote:Based on the idea of Singha sir, how about having a squadron of 4x4 vehicle.

The squadron would consists of:
1. 6 vehicles armed with canisterized ATGM, maybe 6-8 each.
2. 4 vehicles having recoiless guns.
3. 2 vehicles armed with IR AAM, providing air cover ( like the avenger)
4. 1 dedicated vehicle for having a Nishant type UAV
5. 5 vehicles with 5 infantry each, thus providing upto 30 soldier prodiving screening and support.

Of course the numbers here are not something sacrosant, but something that just came out of my mind.

Thus a total of 18 4x4, air deployable squadron. Of course this does not provide heavy hitting power, but does provide enough skirmishing power to hit enemy where we want and when we want.
  • Instead of the 2 Air-Defense vehicles, it would probably be better to go with 81mm/120mm Mortar vehicles or NOLAS. This will give this squadron a much better firepower to tackle a numerically superior force. AD can be provided by MANPADS (around one per vehicle for a total of 8 missiles).
  • Each of the infantry vehicles could be armed with 2 ATGMs as well as heavy caliber machine guns. Also, equip 2 MANPATS (Man Portable Anti-Tank System) with each IV team. This way the number of vehicles assigned to ATGM roles can be reduced from 6 to 3. And instead raise the number of IV to 8 (with 7 infantry each for a total of 56 troops and 16 MANPATS and 16 vehicle-mounted ATGMs).
  • Nishant UAV is bit too big for this mobile small force. They would need something smaller and disposable. Maybe carry 4 units of these smaller/disposable UAVs for reconnaissance and targeting.
Revising your list ...
The air-deployable 4x4 vehicle squadron would consists of:
  1. 3 vehicles armed with canisterized ATGM, with 6-8 rounds each (total 18-24 ATGMs).
  2. 4 vehicles having 105mm recoilless guns with 18 rounds each.
  3. 2 vehicles NOLAS/Mortar (81mm/120mm) with 18-30 rounds each
  4. 1 dedicated C2SR vehicle with 4 small/disposable UAVs
  5. 8 vehicles with 2 ATGMs + 8 infantry each (total up to 56 soldiers for screening and support armed with 16 MANPATS + 8 MANPADS)
Total Firepower:
72 x 105mm rounds
36-60 x 81mm/120mm Mortar rounds
34-40 x ATGM rounds
16 x MANPATS rounds
8 x MANPADS rounds
4 x UAVs

Plus, vehicle mounted machine guns and infantry weapons.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

I guess being young has one big advantage - and that is having a mind uncluttered by prior experience of what might go wrong.

I was thinking about electric powered vehicles - and thanks to young Manish Rastogi for that. My dear Unkal Googal tells me that there are a few companies that are capable of making electric powered vehicles weighing up to 10,000 pounds - i.e around 4 tonnes. There is another company that makes an electric tractor that can pull a 10 ton container load.

But this must be set up against the fact that tanks are typically 40 plus tonnes (i.e over 80,000 pounds) - often over 100,000 lbs (what a stupid unit - this "pounds" business. I will stop NOW!)

Also it appears that electric vehicles are being designed under the following two conditions:
1) In areas where there is a lot of stop-start-stop-start - i.e situations in which diesel/petrol vehicles are burning fuel for nothing (like milk/mail delivery vehicles)
2) Where the range required is fixed and unvarying - eg circular routes.

The reason why electric vehicles are being used is more because of environmental concerns rather than anything else. That is of no concern in war. When you are exploding bombs and killing - the environment is that last thing anyone will worry about.

However electric vehicles have two advantages that may be applicable for a combat situation - i.e low noise and low IR signature. This may be of some utility in special ops - esp at night. No special new technology is required and IMO nothing special should be used. Plain lead-acid batteries which can be abandoned if necessary and no enemy gains anything by capturing the vehicle. Such vehicles are already being made in India (in Bangalore, Kerala) by Maini tech - but Mahindra have recently bought them out. Maini had a presence with DRDO in Aero Indian 2009.

Imagine a vehicle that is under 5 tonnes - with a range of say 100 km being airdropped 10-20 km from a target installation. Armament can be RCL or RPG or 12.7 gun plus accommodation for commandos. Having a separate motor to power each of 4 or 6 wheels should provide excellent cross country capability including the ability to turn within its own radius. It should be no greater in width than a Tata Sumo/Mahindra Scorpio so that it can negotiate most narrow lanes. Silent, cool (low IR signature) and disposable if need be, and uses only existing technology.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by arunsrinivasan »

I did suggest this a couple of pages back but seems to have got lost in all the back & forth. My understanding is a pure electric MBT is not feasible for now based on current technology. How about a diesel-electric hybrid, this technology is used widely in locomotives. Am not an expert .... but based on unkal google, the reasons for its use is - it is more efficient than pure diesel & simplifies the transmission system etc. However am not sure from a weight / size perspective if it could be use in an MBT. If yes, it might provide significant advantages, no logistical problem, mature technology, but might have to be modified and customised for MBT application. Would appreciate feedback on this idea.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

But this must be set up against the fact that tanks are typically 40 plus tonnes (i.e over 80,000 pounds) - often over 100,000 lbs (what a stupid unit - this "pounds" business. I will stop NOW!)
I agree with that also i am not sure but it seems possible that by increasing the size of batteries and other components tanks could be turned electrical(I am not totally sure about this one).
Also it appears that electric vehicles are being designed under the following two conditions:
1) In areas where there is a lot of stop-start-stop-start - i.e situations in which diesel/petrol vehicles are burning fuel for nothing (like milk/mail delivery vehicles)
2) Where the range required is fixed and unvarying - eg circular routes.
Okay thats something new and informative....i didn't know that...thanks for that!!!Also i have seen that with regenerative braking quite a lot of energy could be reused.
The reason why electric vehicles are being used is more because of environmental concerns rather than anything else. That is of no concern in war. When you are exploding bombs and killing - the environment is that last thing anyone will worry about.
Absolutely....
However electric vehicles have two advantages that may be applicable for a combat situation - i.e low noise and low IR signature. This may be of some utility in special ops - esp at night. No special new technology is required and IMO nothing special should be used. Plain lead-acid batteries which can be abandoned if necessary and no enemy gains anything by capturing the vehicle.
with special batteries like li-ion and some other types....both range and charging time issues could be taken care of(to quite an extent....like achieving 80% charge in some 30 min).Also i would like to state that if the fully electric thing seems futuristic than micro gas turbines could be used....they weigh 35kg each...produce some 140kw power....and 4 of those could increase a car's range by almost 800kms....ofcourse we can't achieve that in a tank but still a lot could be achieved....one more thing all this with just 60l of fuel!!!



First, stop calling anyone "sir". I dont think anyone is asking for it
Done...
Secondly, I am guessing your background is not in a science stream. This is not a drawback at all, but it requires a bit more effort and reading from you.
No....i am in science stream only.(i am really curious to know that what led you to this assumption)
What others are trying to tell you is that you should :
1. Read more
2. When you suggest something, think of the possible ramification of the suggestion
1.I would start reading more and more right away....and would try to make my point with a strong reading backing from next time!!!
2.I always do that but i would do that even more from now on....
Had you prefaced your post saying 25 years in the future, no one would have batted a eyelid. But the reason people are contradicting you is you claim it is possible in 5-10 years when all available evidence suggests it does not.

I said above that maybe due to less knowledge about current trends in that industry.....i may have got it wrong with all electric system.....but if you would like to look at the new concept of using micro turbines along with such batteries......it seems promising!!!



With all this i would like to make a statement....i respect everyone's view.....but the thing in which i believe is that....if nobody has taken the initiative....then why not you do that!!!
Maybe all other people in this world never thought about it that way.....we could!!!
If we keep the attitude of that no other country has been able to done it, then why us??....i guess we would never be able to overtake them.....what our country would do is when the tech gets in production....we would start on it and then another 10 years to get it on field.....its futuristic but quite possible....so i guess we should grab the opportunity!!!(I don't know where all this came from :roll: )
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by shiv »

Manish let me teach you the meaning of nonsensical but correct answers. If someone were to ask which school you attended a valid answer would be "It could be any school". Of course you did not attend "any school". You attended some particular school or schools. But the answer "Could be any school" is correct. As long as nobody knows the correct answer - it is easy to say "it could be any school"

In the same token I am going to ask you "Who manufactures 35 kg microturbo engines that give 140 KW of power?" That is a specific question. It can be answered in a general way by saying 'Oh anybody can manufacture such an engine with suitable research". That may be true - but it is only as true as saying "Manish Rastogi could have attended any school"

So tell me "Who manufactures the 35 kg microturbo engines that produce 140 kW power" for the car that you are talking about? In which country is that microturbo engine manufactured? These are very specific questions requiring specific answers. Naming any one manufacturer and the country is enough. Please don't post a link and ask people to read for themselves. You need to learn to find specific answers to specific questions. You have a computer and internet access. Why not give the questions a shot?

I post these question with a warning. More questions will follow if you answer the question. If you don't answer it - your microturbo idea cannot be taken seriously. I have a good idea of the answers to all my questions but I think you don't know. Let's see if we can get you to open your eyes. You do not yet understand why people are pouring cold water on your ideas that sound good to you. You need to understand why.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

i would like to give it a shot and would answer the questions as much as i can......the company producing such micro gas turbines is bladon jets in uk!! the uk government's Technology Strategy Board funded it to
develop an Ultra Lightweight
Range Extender (ULRE) for next
generation electric vehicles.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by ashokpachori »

micro gas turbines could be used....they weigh 35kg each...produce some 140kw power....and 4 of those could increase a car's range by almost 800kms
Each 35Kg machine produces 70Kw and not 140Kw.

For 800 range, you just need 2 of these Micro Turbines.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by manish.rastogi »

^^^sorry for that one.....my bad!!
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by ashokpachori »

manish.rastogi wrote:^^^sorry for that one.....my bad!!
Need not be sorry.
Its all right.
Cheers.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by bmallick »

srai wrote: Revising your list ...
The air-deployable 4x4 vehicle squadron would consists of:
  1. 3 vehicles armed with canisterized ATGM, with 6-8 rounds each (total 18-24 ATGMs).
  2. 4 vehicles having 105mm recoilless guns with 18 rounds each.
  3. 2 vehicles NOLAS/Mortar (81mm/120mm) with 18-30 rounds each
  4. 1 dedicated C2SR vehicle with 4 small/disposable UAVs
  5. 8 vehicles with 2 ATGMs + 8 infantry each (total up to 56 soldiers for screening and support armed with 16 MANPATS + 8 MANPADS)
Total Firepower:
72 x 105mm rounds
36-60 x 81mm/120mm Mortar rounds
34-40 x ATGM rounds
16 x MANPATS rounds
8 x MANPADS rounds
4 x UAVs

Plus, vehicle mounted machine guns and infantry weapons.
I really like your idea of dispersing the AT & AA power into more platforms. Thinking along the same lines, why not remove the dedicated ATGM vehicle and rely on MANPATS completely.

Thus a further revised list:
1. 2 81 mm Mortar vehicle, each carrying one Mortar system and 30 rounds.
2. 1 dedicated C2SR vehicle with 4 small/disposable UAVs
3. 15 Troop carrier, each having 4-5 soldiers. Among these 7 would be having 3-4 MANPATS and 8 Having 2 MANPATS & 1
MANPAD. Thus a total of 35-40 MANPATS & 8 MANPADS. Also around 6-8 vehicles having heavy machine gun and 3-4
having Automatic grenade launcher. The vehicles which do not have heavy machine gun or grenade launcher would be
carrying additional ammo for everybody.

Please note that I have restricted the number of troops to 4-5 ( including driver ), thus totaling around 60-75 soldiers. The reason for restricting their numbers is to have extra space in the vehicles for food, water, medicines, additional fuel & equipments. Also this smaller number would mean we can do with a smaller 4x4 like Jeep. Also such a force would be mince meat in flat terrain where enemy heavy firepower can see for miles, however in the northeastern hills, and northern mountains, where LOS is limited such recon with force squad can be helpful.
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Re: Design your own tank

Post by Pratyush »

Guys,

Since this thread has gone to sleep. I thought of bringing it back to life. The previous discussion on the
thread was for a 20 ton vehicle firing a gun for the northern areas and Tibet. I had felt that it would be
too heavy to be airlifted in quantity with the available & projected Airlift available with the IAF.

I have been thinking for some time, WRT, how to overcome that problem and my thoughts keep going
back to the 106 RCL and the exploits of Abdul Hamid.

Here was a powerful AT weapon that was relatively light and quite mobile on the battlefield. Its
primary protection against the enemy was its small size & signature. In the modern army the ATGM
has replaced the RCL and has taken over that role from it.

Now that does not mean that an RCL weapon will have no role to play. It just need to be redesigned to
fit on the modern battlefield. With that in view I propose the following vehicle, the all up weight for
which should not exceed 7.5 tons. Wheeled/ tracked vehicle designed with the same philosophy as
the Russian BMD airborne armored vehicle mated to a 140 mm RCL weapon and having auto loader
with the ability to engage targets on the move along with moving vehicles. The main gun should be
capable of traversing & shooting 360 degrees. The following are the type of ammunition that I would
like to see for the vehicle.

F&F ATGM with 4 to 6 km range
Sabot round
HEAT
Hesh
The new anti infantry round capable of engaging dismounted infantry.

The vehicle should have an ideal ammo load out of 30 rounds.

The usual refinements should give us a vehicle capable of defeating any MBT on the battlefield. The
protection will not be the strong suite . But when employed with skill and finesse it can break up any
armored assault from any enemy.

JMT onlee.
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