China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

[ashi]

Chengdu's new UAV

[adityadange]

can anybody please please please post something that relates to "specification" of that UAV?

on a lighter note - china seems to be developing new scooter too. just look near forward landing gear.
is it 5th gen stealth scooter?
new addition: there are few more mopeds and cycles too. is it really UAV for military use or stealth cargo plane?

[adityadange]

another question: what is significance of that diamond shape wing at the rear end? can any guru shed some light?

[nash]

Chengdu's new UAV

What you want us to do this pic, spec and some info. will be good.

[D Roy]

oh that's a sensor integrated aerostructure configuration that generates lift as well as houses an sensor array.

a load bearing structural array.

[adityadange]

oh that's a sensor integrated aerostructure configuration that generates lift as well as houses an sensor array.

a load bearing structural array.

but wont it add its contribution in RCS?

[sarabpal.s]

It seems like China is carrying out tests for new 105 mm light tanks in Tibet.

old pic atleast a year

[Selamat Pagi]

Chengdu's new UAV

What you want us to do this pic, spec and some info. will be good.

This is a High Altitude and High endurance UAV. It can fly at over 50000ft !! Only China has a FULL SIZE UAV of this unique wing design.

[Selamat Pagi]

another question: what is significance of that diamond shape wing at the rear end? can any guru shed some light?

Not a guru, but its normally called as closed wing or C-wing. Provides better lift. No Idea about how it will impact RCS.

China has another UAV that is build for sheath.


This is a scale model in flight.

[shiv]

This is a High Altitude and High endurance UAV. It can fly at over 50000ft !! Only China has a FULL SIZE UAV of this unique wing design.

7000 km range, 750 kmph at 18,000 meters. It is not the body shape (which is available on Popular Mechanics). It is the engine. China does not have an indigenous engine for those specs.

[NRao]

UAVS that fly at high altitudes. Fly long distances. And, have no proper sensors?

All these are fine machines. Will not last long.

[Anand K]

>> Selamat Pagi post on UAV specs

Is it just me or does the "Soar D" part of the Soar Dragon specifications sheet looked taped over? Different font and font-size?

[adityadange]

In the second pic of the white UAV, there seems to be arrester hook in the rear. Is it real or just some object in the background?

[vina]

This is a scale model in flight.

Nope. This is photoshopped rubbish. Look at the wheels vs the power lines in the background. Also, notice that this model has twin tails, sort of like F-117.

[Selamat Pagi]

In the second pic of the white UAV, there seems to be arrester hook in the rear. Is it real or just some object in the background?

Yes it is an arrester hook. Below is a picture showing a sucessful landing on a scaled model of an aircraft carrier.


Another UAV also landed on the scaled model of the aircraft carrier.

[VinodTK]

China's PLA seeks 'new type' relations with Indian military

[abhik]

Chengdu's new UAV

http://bbs.chinaiiss.com/attachments/mo ... 6603d4.jpg

Does this aircraft actually have landing gears or is it propped up by by some other means(Of course it is continently obscured in the pic)? It looks to me like the aircraft is at too high a level wrt the ground to be on its landing gear.

[member_20317]

This is a scale model in flight.

Nope. This is photoshopped rubbish. Look at the wheels vs the power lines in the background. Also, notice that this model has twin tails, sort of like F-117.

Damn right it is photoshopped. In fact the photograph is the enlarged version of the 'scaled down version' that is shown as being tested below.

Compare the sizes of the crafts with respect to the bush in the foreground in the above picture and then compare the size of the scaled down version against the man in the background to get an idea of the level of enlargement done.

Then see the exact same enlargement done for the antennas on the craft.

The dumb idiots want to tell us that the antennas will grow as the craft size would increase. What kind of idiot would suggest that.

Yes it is an arrester hook. Below is a picture showing a sucessful landing on a scaled model of an aircraft carrier.

[member_20317]

Chengdu's new UAV

http://bbs.chinaiiss.com/attachments/mo ... 6603d4.jpg

Does this aircraft actually have landing gears or is it propped up by by some other means(Of course it is continently obscured in the pic)? It looks to me like the aircraft is at too high a level wrt the ground to be on its landing gear.

Did not notice that at first but yes the guys (even for a chinese) in the picture are standing straight and still there is so much space between his head and the wings.

[DavidD]

Does this aircraft actually have landing gears or is it propped up by by some other means(Of course it is continently obscured in the pic)? It looks to me like the aircraft is at too high a level wrt the ground to be on its landing gear.

Did not notice that at first but yes the guys (even for a chinese) in the picture are standing straight and still there is so much space between his head and the wings.

It's for RCS testing. The J-10B recently did the same thing for the same purpose.

[Aditya_V]

What are 2 cherrys on the bottom side of the global hawk type UAV abd why are bikes parked all over? and unlike J-10 above, the UAV engine inlet seems modular with the rest of the body, seems to be a model with no engine, no avionics, no cameras etc, in initial stage around 5-8 years before the first test flight takes off.

[member_20317]

It's for RCS testing. The J-10B recently did the same thing for the same purpose.

Reasonable possiblity. Besides I am not familiar with RCS testing requirements.

The only other example of RCS testing that I have seen is for the US aircrafts lofted way above on long poles.

Won't this method of RCS testing bring in the issue of clutter? Unless that is the idea to begin with.

[Selamat Pagi]

Nope. This is photoshopped rubbish. Look at the wheels vs the power lines in the background. Also, notice that this model has twin tails, sort of like F-117.

Damn right it is photoshopped. In fact the photograph is the enlarged version of the 'scaled down version' that is shown as being tested below.

Compare the sizes of the crafts with respect to the bush in the foreground in the above picture and then compare the size of the scaled down version against the man in the background to get an idea of the level of enlargement done.

Then see the exact same enlargement done for the antennas on the craft.

The dumb idiots want to tell us that the antennas will grow as the craft size would increase. What kind of idiot would suggest that.

This is only a scaled model of the real sheath UAV. That is what I said. These images of the flying scaled model were taken over a year ago. The real sheathy delta winged UAV should be rolled out soon.

[Brando]

^^ What in God's name is "sheath" UAV ??

[Brando]

It's for RCS testing. The J-10B recently did the same thing for the same purpose.

I seriously doubt it, unless the Chinese want to waste their time.

RCS mapping is done in a controlled space where background reflections and ground return is absent. Further, there is no point is having an aircraft so close to the ground that all you get is noise.

It's quite possible these aircraft are being tested somewhere else and that "platform" is just to rest the aircraft between tests as otherwise they would need to run the engine/APU to get the hydraulics going to lower and retract the landing gear for the tests.

[Singha]

the more 'accepted' way of doing RCS test is like this (JSF)
http://www.thehowlandcompany.com/main/news-howland.htm
or EF http://www.targetlock.org.uk/typhoon/anechoic.jpg

however it seems sukhoi does it outdoors exactly in the way that j10 is put

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 47c1-9d02-

in the 1st case the plane or model can be moved around in 3D angles
in the 2nd case the radar sending the pulses has to be mobile...kind of like the portable x-ray machines they wheel around in hospitals I guess.

[rohitvats]

^^^There are pics of F-117 full scale model being subjected to RCS testing by mounting it on a pole like structure...it was said that the biggest challenge was to ensure that the design of pole did not produce RCS BIGGER than the aircraft...

Check this: http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/stealth ... s_test.jpg

[member_20317]

the more 'accepted' way of doing RCS test is like this (JSF)
http://www.thehowlandcompany.com/main/news-howland.htm
or EF http://www.targetlock.org.uk/typhoon/anechoic.jpg

however it seems sukhoi does it outdoors exactly in the way that j10 is put

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 47c1-9d02-

in the 1st case the plane or model can be moved around in 3D angles
in the 2nd case the radar sending the pulses has to be mobile...kind of like the portable x-ray machines they wheel around in hospitals I guess.

The 'accepted' way may be too TFTA for Russian, Chinese and even Indians. The 2nd case you present is not, entirely unbelievable.

The photograph of the J-10B does show it parked on the grass with at least on two sides there being a reasonable tarmak for the sensors to be hauled. Could be that these guys were testing for RCS on only the two sides. The view that gets the compressor blades or the engines into the picture may be done in still another way. In which case the fuselage may be the only thing resting on those silly looking drums.

Also by now the mathematics of the radiated energy and the received energy must be pretty well established to go in for RCS testing in such moderated ways. After all in real life because of the distances involved the target getting painted may also be reflecting energy in a much more 'shaky' manner. Perhaps you can shake the sensors in such an ungainly fashion to simulate the flight patterns of the bogie.

Pata nahi

The corrugations on the silly drums would be a big issue, whichever way one looks at it though. To that extent the POV of rohitvatsji is understandable.

This should esp. be so in RCS testing of Non-stealth aircrafts which are going to present a much bigger RCS then the F117 types which probably requires a clear calculation for ever facet of its fuselage. Arre noticed that F117 is also tested outdoors though much clear surroundings.

[disha]

This is only a scaled model of the real sheath UAV. That is what I said. These images of the flying scaled model were taken over a year ago. The real sheathy delta winged UAV should be rolled out soon.

Selamat, you are very right. It is very difficult for lot of people here to accept the fact that a stealth UAV is stealthy by the very fact that it is unseen. Chalk it down to cognitive dissonance.

[eklavya]

Wonder if China is dumb enough to start a war ...

Dangerous shoals

The risks of a clash between China and Japan are rising—and the consequences could be calamitous

CHINA and Japan are sliding towards war. In the waters and skies around disputed islands, China is escalating actions designed to challenge decades of Japanese control. It is accompanying its campaign with increasingly blood-curdling rhetoric. Japan, says the China Daily, is the “real danger and threat to the world”. A military clash, says Global Times, is now “more likely…We need to prepare for the worst.” China appears to be preparing for the first armed confrontation between the two countries in seven decades.

China and Japan have well-known differences over history and territory—most pressingly over five islets, out in the East China Sea, which Japan controls and calls the Senkakus but which China lays claim to and calls the Diaoyus. Rational actors with deeply entwined economies are supposed to sort out their differences, or learn to put them safely to one side. At least, that was the assumption with China and Japan.

But this changed in September, after Japan’s then prime minister, Yoshihiko Noda, nationalised the three islands Japan did not already own. It was a clumsy attempt to avoid them falling into the hands of Shintaro Ishihara, a right-wing China-baiter who was governor of Tokyo until late last year.

Yet China insisted that the move was an anti-China conspiracy to strengthen Japan’s claim. It set out to blow a hole in Japanese pretensions to sole control of the waters and skies around the islands. Incursions by surveillance vessels came first. Then, in December, a patrol plane buzzed the islands; Japan scrambled fighter planes. This month Japanese and Chinese jets sought to tail each other near the islands’ air space. Japan, newspapers report, is considering ordering warning shots to be fired next time. A Chinese general says that would count as the start of “actual combat”. So long as China vies for control, conflict will be a hair-trigger away.

This week senior American officials rushed to Tokyo to urge caution on Shinzo Abe’s hawkish new government. America is obliged to come to Japan’s aid if it is attacked, and being sucked into a conflict with China is almost too unbearable to contemplate. But in the face of repeated Chinese incursions, a Japanese reaction is understandable. Mr Abe has announced that after a decade of declining military budgets, defence spending will rise this year. This week he visited South-East Asia to shore up relations with countries that also have concerns about Chinese expansion.

Mr Abe’s aims in South-East Asia were crude. But it may be that, short of simply handing the islands over, nothing that the Japanese government could do could satisfy China. This week an editorial in the China Daily acknowledged that Japan is working to build bridges with China, but immediately dismissed the efforts as part of a “two-faced strategy”. Japan, says China, is the threat—though, unlike China, it has not picked a military fight since 1945.

Chinese diplomats accuse Japan of attempting to do down their country when it is beset by domestic challenges. Yet they bristle at the notion that Chinese incursions seek to take advantage of Japanese weaknesses, such as enfeebled governments and a sullen economy. China seems unwilling to entertain other perspectives or interests. The sources of this chauvinism are not entirely clear. It may be that the government is responding to the ultra-nationalist sentiments that people increasingly give voice to on the internet.

Horrible history

East Asian parallels from a century ago are hard to ignore. Then, as justification for continental expansion, a bullying Japan drank from a dangerous brew of nationalism and a manufactured sense of foreign aggression and victimhood. As China pursues a policy of maritime expansion, the rhetoric of victimisation is remarkably similar. The coming clash that China now talks about could be as calamitous as that previous one was. It would imperil not just China’s but the region’s peace and its momentous economic advances.

The world, including America, has a duty to warn China before it is too late, though warnings will be interpreted as conspiracies. So who in China will speak out against this unfolding madness?

[NRao]

China is getting bold for two reasons:

a) Her own growth has an impact on her decisions, and
b) More importantly the total lack of push back from others

It is the second one that prompts her to get even more bold.

Meanwhile other nations that can feed on Japan will also take advantage of the situation.

War will arrive if and when all these forces are optimized. IF any one of them has any -ve coming out of a war, it will more than likely will not happen.

[Brando]

Special Report: China's Military hawks take the offensive

I don't think we can consider Sino-Japanese relations to come under the same umbrella as China's relations with the other neighboring states. There is a deep and sometimes legitimate grievance that the Chinese have with the Japanese. And despite 6 and a half decades of peace, the Chinese are not willing to let bygones be bygones. IMO, the Chinese won't be satisfied till they extract their pound of flesh for what they perceive as past humiliations against them. This revanchist attitude is going to take a life of its own if it gets away from the leaders in China and the leaders in China can't seem to be seen as being "weak".

What makes this situation so dangerous is that USA, the one country that is supposed to guarantee Japan's security in exchange for Japan's pacifism and can actually deter the Chinese is now equivocating on its commitment and if the Japanese find the Americans to be unreliable, they might decide that pacifism no longer suits them. The generation of Japanese that grew up post WW2 in Japan, is slowly dying out and the newer generations don't understand the dangers or the costs that militaristic nationalism brought to Japan and to all of Asia as a result.

[Misraji]

^^^
I have been asked a few times by my University Chinese friends if I still hate England.
They are a bit surprised when I reply that I could not be bothered.

For, the Mango Chinese do harbor a deep hatred for the Japanese.
Hence in that sense, this growing rhetoric indicates trouble.
IMHO, the Chinese government will be willing to take risks if it thinks it can score points with its domestic audience.

--Ashish

[NRao]

Special Report: China's Military hawks take the offensive

Interesting. Though nothing new. China is a hydra. One of the facts we must face in a situation where the military is not under the civilians. The PLA will have a lot of bark, but I doubt they will bite. If they do, it will be a very expensive one even if it just a chicken they kill.

[sarabpal.s]

biggest situation is that Chinese people's fall for Pla propaganda which is like a bait to actully move to other topic rather than internal topic specialy the anti communist single party government. Pakistan doing the same by stroking anti India Strom .

[Surya]

What makes this situation so dangerous is that USA, the one country that is supposed to guarantee Japan's security in exchange for Japan's pacifism and can actually deter the Chinese is now equivocating on its commitment and if the Japanese find the Americans to be unreliable, they might decide that pacifism no longer suits them.

there is no more equivocation - the US has clearly stated that japan has it under its control and it would come to aid under its obligation.

[Prem]

Japan should sign overt military pact for mutual defense with India , It will for sure light the fire under Commie feet. Call it Defangwang treaty.

[subhamoy.das]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 100410.cms

China asks heli unit to be prepared for war - with JAPAN.

This is a trade war being culminating into a real war. The CHINESE GDP is too much on a opimum on exports at the cost of jobs in the west and the west is hitting back with economic sanctions - like pressure to let YUAN float freely etc - which the CHINESE cannot accept as this will destroy its economy and bring in social unrest and even break up the nation. This is getting interesting but dangerous. May be this is the way the CPC will go. If I am CHINESE CPC agent then I will be very worried but alas nothing much can be done now. If I let my currency appreciate then my economy dies. If i keep it under valued then the other economies will force me to wage a war and it will destroy my economy. So in either case the CHINESE economy will suffer. Brings in a word of wisdom "Jaisi Karni Waisi Bharni".

[VinodTK]

Chinese Army to use helicopters for combat role

Beijing, Jan 20 (IANS) The Chinese Army now plans to use helicopters in combat operations and will accordingly change training programmes for its aviation personnel, a media report said Sunday.

The focus of People's Liberation Army's (PLA) army aviation unit will be shifted from logistics missions to combat ones, from building the capacity for non-war military actions to core military actions, the China Daily cited the PLA Daily, the flagship newspaper of China's armed forces, as saying.

The PLA plans to change the training strategy of its army aviation unit as more and more armed helicopters joined the service, it reported.

The unit will work on major missions such as long-distance tasks, large scale offshore operations, attack coordination with other units and large scale airborne operations.

The unit also aims to improve its operation capability based on IT technologies, the report added.

[Sagar G]

I truly wish that China starts the war cause this is a war which China can't win. It will fail militarily and economically, then the interesting part of chinese internal dynamics would start.