China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

[Sagar G]

????????????????????

What ???

[Will]

????????????????????

What ???

Aint ISRO and DRDO public sector?

[Sagar G]

Aint ISRO and DRDO public sector?

Nope, they are research organizations under GOI who have been given specific tasks. Everything under GOI doesn't mean "public sector".

[karan_mc]

China invites India’s ‘Missile man’ to teach at Peking varsity

[Nikhil T]

Reuters on J-31

China flexes mil muscle with J-31 stealth fighter

[chaanakya]

if the Chinese think they can replicate 62 all over again then they are in for a bloody nose.

Chinese should take a leaf out of strategy page of their closest friend . Just die in some avalanche and ulta pulta alliance would gift you everything free.

[shiv]

Reuters on J-31

China flexes mil muscle with J-31 stealth fighter

Could someone explain what military muscle is being displayed by the first flight of an alleged fighter that is designed externally to look like the latest western fighters (which we have all been taught to respect as the best since west is best and always ahead of the rest)?

Would China's military might have been laughed off as idiotic and non existent if they had made an aircraft that looks like the LCA rather than one that looks like the F-35? Are we talking echandee or capability?

My education in this regard may have been wrong but I thought the capability of an aircrfat is more relevant than whose cousin it seems to be.I am open to re education.

[subhamoy.das]

They become in-efficient when they are put into bad systems like Indian public sector organizations like DRDO or ISRO.

DRDO and ISRO are now public sector organizations !!!!!

These are funded and controlled by GOI - hence in the public sector - unlike TATA POWER which is funded and controlled by TATA a private entity.

[subhamoy.das]

The way I see it is as follows - I am constrained to explain

If Chinese are put into bad Indian systems they will work like Indians
if Chinese and/or Indians are put into American systems they will work like Americans
If Chinese (or Indians) are put into Chinese systems, they will work like Chinese.

Neither Chinese nor American systems are like inefficient Indian systems

But are Chinese systems like American systems? If not what are they producing?

I would again say that the Chinese public sector system ( read govt systems ) are close to that of US gov sector systems in terms of executing consistently on mega plans and delivering assuming what we see here are not photo-shopped but real products. Very few indian govts - may be some BJP ruled states - can be exception.

[Sagar G]

These are funded and controlled by GOI - hence in the public sector - unlike TATA POWER which is funded and controlled by TATA a private entity.

Subhanallah by this logic RAW,IB,CBI are also public sector onleee.

You should look into what constitutes a public sector and in which category ISRO , DRDO fall into instead of giving lahori logic.

[subhamoy.das]

Long way to go for the J-20 and the J-31 (to bring down its radar / IR signature). Nevertheless, by the time production starts in 2020+, I am very confident that US/EU/Russian technology will be able to detect them and shoot them down at range. The great thing about this technological race is that its China vs. Rest of the World (US, Europe, Russia, India, Japan, etc), and China will never develop a superior system.

This is a strong statement in support of the fact that Indian public systems are so in-efficient and corrupt.

WRONG. This is a strong statement to say that China has becomes the world's problem, and the world's leading powers will contain China. Pooling our resources to contain China makes economic and strategic sense.

We are now hiding behind the whole world to take on China.

WRONG. China wants to take on the whole world. They will loose ...

We cannot even say that - we will also be ready with a equivalent fighter to meet might with might because we know that the Indian public system will not be able to field any thing in the next 20 years other than hot talks.

WRONG. Rafale, FGFA, Su-30 MKI, Mirage 2000 upgrade, MiG-29 upgrade, etc. and our Air Defence / AEW systems will defeat PLAAF.

Most of the news item that comes out from Indian public sector carries the word "will" and seldom "has". That is the difference. The Chinese public sector may beg, steal, kill but it delivers!

WRONG. Chinese public sector delivers rubbish aircraft.

You may continue to live in denial but I am a worried person because our military is controlled by the same GOI which cannot execute on plans. In 1962 the GOI did not call in the air force and in future the SU MKI and Brahamos squadrons may be sitting out the war in their barracks. The world gagged up against NAZI germany but that did not take the fact away that German govt of that time was highly efficient and executed mega plans time and again. I think this inablility of the GOI controlled entities to execute on plans is partly due to the fact that India is not a COUNTRY at all but is a loose collection of states with a single currency and a army and more like EUROPE rather than China or US and that throws in so many obstacles to execution including lack of will or national sentiments and the CHALTA-HAI approach is adopted widely. Execution gets better when we are down to a state - which is more like a real country - with a good local pride like Gujarat but fails again in a state like bengal where the GOVT has no local ( read bengali ) pride.

[Samay]

X-posting from Indian army thread..

Amazing...

Walk The Talk with 1962 war veterans
Part 1
Part 2

Apart from remembering these warriors at least a big budget movie should be made on this story

[shiv]

I would again say that the Chinese public sector system ( read govt systems ) are close to that of US gov sector systems in terms of executing consistently on mega plans and delivering assuming what we see here are not photo-shopped but real products.

Well everyone is entitled to his opinion. Thank you for stating yours.

[subhamoy.das]

These are funded and controlled by GOI - hence in the public sector - unlike TATA POWER which is funded and controlled by TATA a private entity.

Subhanallah by this logic RAW,IB,CBI are also public sector onleee.

You should look into what constitutes a public sector and in which category ISRO , DRDO fall into instead of giving lahori logic.

I am using the sentence "public sector" to represent all entities which are funded by GOI ( read public money ) and yes by that definition RAW,IB,CBI are all in public sector and they all suffer from the same lethargy and in-efficiency and CHAI-PANI culture which is the hall mark of indian public sector. Include railways, NHAI, municipality, AAI, port authority of India and the list is end less. Some exceptions will be there but it does not look good. Look at how the Arushi murder case is handled by CBI, the way a brilliant RAW agent was treated in Beijing, the way ISRO has only the PSLV working for a long time now when China is doing moon walk, the way army is trying to acquire a field gun for 15 years now ... I mean whom are we kidding and I hope we are matured enough to accept it and move on and be part of IAC if we want to change this.

[Pratyush]

subhamoy.das ji,

Their are other threads for this discussion on the efficiency of the DRDO and the ISRO on this forum, Please feel free to participate in them. This thread is for dissecting the PRC capabilities and not for discussion the Indian PSUs.

[shiv]

subhamoy.das ji,

Their are other threads for this discussion on the efficiency of the DRDO and the ISRO on this forum, Please feel free to participate in them. This thread is for dissecting the PRC capabilities and not for discussion the Indian PSUs.

Shush Pratyushji shush! PRC capabilities on this thread are the very place where Indians get reminded of India's weaknesses and fears and feel the need to lecture other Indians who are all dumb and do not know. Did you know all the things that subhamoyda has written? I did not know. I thought everything was fine in India and I know that most BRFites feel like me. Just listen to the lecture and learn.

[Pratyush]

^^^

I will attend the class room as you suggest

[member_22539]

Really, where do these jokers crawl out from. Why is it that some people just assume that fellow Indians are ignorant fools and have this irresistible itch to give a lecture on the various warts that are visible to them. This never stops. Every couple of months a new joker lands on one of the many threads and proceeds to laboriously educate the local ignorants. Its high time we post a disclaimer at the top of every page, informing these people that no lectures are required and that the residents are well aware of how "pathetic and inefficient" India is.

[shiv]

Every couple of months a new joker lands on one of the many threads and proceeds to laboriously educate the local ignorants.

True. It's absolutely predictable. Happens every few weeks and has occurred 3-4 times on this thread alone. To me it is an indicator of how many indians fear China and yet love India so much that they feel a quick lecture would "jagao" Indians.

To a significant number of Indians it is necessary to fear China and any other Indian who does not express a fear of China needs to be told off as an ignorant idiot whose attitude lost the war in 1962 and is contributing to a certain defeat in another conflict.

No other attitude is allowed. I see this as a bruised and insulted Indian ego that actually wants China's butt to be kicked and for the Chinese to suffer so that Indians can laugh and start feeling better about their miserable selves. I credit Mao with this amazing achievement - and if you notice - even giving Mao credit for keeping a few million educated Indians shit scared of China even after 50 years has been criticized as "blaming Mao" by Subhamoyda. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the Chinese have a good laugh at Indians, they would not be wrong - but anything China does is greatly feared and respected by some Indians, and this feeling is only exacerbated by the unavoidable fact that China is a bigger and more populous country with a bigger economy and armed forces. Anyone who refuses to blindly fear China is given a lecture. I am certain that Indian viewpoints will introspect only when some Chinese military university scholar publishes a pdf of the Indian psyche pointing out that the 1962 war has left a whole lot of educated Indians with a deep fear and loathing of China. I think the Chinese to need to know if they haven't figured it out by now.

[Rakesh]

Could someone explain what military muscle is being displayed by the first flight of an alleged fighter that is designed externally to look like the latest western fighters (which we have all been taught to respect as the best since west is best and always ahead of the rest)?

Would China's military might have been laughed off as idiotic and non existent if they had made an aircraft that looks like the LCA rather than one that looks like the F-35? Are we talking echandee or capability?

My education in this regard may have been wrong but I thought the capability of an aircrfat is more relevant than whose cousin it seems to be.I am open to re education.

I am appalled that you are using logic to try to understand this situation. It has been made very clear that swarms of J-20s (and now J-31s) are going to fly over the Himalayas and single-handedly win a war against India. Only Rakhi Sawant (Shornet) and her sister (Mallika Sherawat --> F-35) has the ability to stop the Chinese hordes. Alas, because our policy makers are such fools...they chose the Rafale instead...which is going to come up woefully short against the Wuhan-powered J-20s and J-31s. I am tired of explaining this to you and others on this forum, each time the Chinese come up with something new. It would be better that you shiver in your dhoti and beat your head against a wall.

[Sagar G]

I am using the sentence "public sector" to represent all entities which are funded by GOI ( read public money ) and yes by that definition RAW,IB,CBI are all in public sector and they all suffer from the same lethargy and in-efficiency and CHAI-PANI culture which is the hall mark of indian public sector. Include railways, NHAI, municipality, AAI, port authority of India and the list is end less. Some exceptions will be there but it does not look good. Look at how the Arushi murder case is handled by CBI, the way a brilliant RAW agent was treated in Beijing, the way ISRO has only the PSLV working for a long time now when China is doing moon walk, the way army is trying to acquire a field gun for 15 years now ... I mean whom are we kidding and I hope we are matured enough to accept it and move on and be part of IAC if we want to change this.

Hmmm, since you seem to have an irrefutable upper hand in matters of deciding what constitutes a public sector and how lame India is, I would wait for my pee ehh dee before replying to you. Till then you can continue educating poor dirty SDREs how despicable they are.

[chaanakya]

I am using the sentence "public sector" to represent all entities which are funded by GOI

Please educate yourself.
I am sure you would have heard of Companies Act.

http://www.india.gov.in/spotlight/spotl ... ?id=78#mf2

[member_22539]

^^Why do you even bother? He didn't come here to "be" educated. He came here "to" educate you and every other desi yokel here.

[Chinmayanand]

I see some mod with broom coming here for cleanup.

[eklavya]

You may continue to live in denial but I am a worried person because our military is controlled by the same GOI which cannot execute on plans.

WRONG. Refer to economic growth of 8% p.a. since 1991. Refer to consistent improvement in every social and economic indicator since 1947.

In 1962 the GOI did not call in the air force and in future the SU MKI and Brahamos squadrons may be sitting out the war in their barracks.

WRONG. Refer to 1971 liberation of Bangladesh. Refer to 1987 Sumdrong Chu face-off with China.

The world gagged up against NAZI germany but that did not take the fact away that German govt of that time was highly efficient and executed mega plans time and again.

WRONG thread for worshipping fascism

I think this inablility of the GOI controlled entities to execute on plans is partly due to the fact that India is not a COUNTRY at all but is a loose collection of states with a single currency and a army and more like EUROPE rather than China or US and that throws in so many obstacles to execution including lack of will or national sentiments and the CHALTA-HAI approach is adopted widely.

WRONG. Bharat-varsh is several thousand years older than US, EU and all their grand-daddies.

Execution gets better when we are down to a state - which is more like a real country - with a good local pride like Gujarat but fails again in a state like bengal where the GOVT has no local ( read bengali ) pride.

WRONG. To test your theory, please could you climb aboard an Agni V rocket on 13 November and request DRDO to launch you in the general direction of Antarctica. Please don't return. Ever.

[Craig Alpert]

New pictures show second Chinese stealth fighter being test flown

[NRao]

Reuters on J-31

China flexes mil muscle with J-31 stealth fighter

Flexing, perhaps.

But, a plane that surely can be trumped.

Technology IS about leapfrogging after all.

But, a good effort for the Chinese.

[shiv]

But, a good effort for the Chinese.

Of absolutely. I have found it very difficult to discuss Chinese developments on this thread in what I consider a rational manner because discussions are constantly interrupted by jingoistic Chinese photoshop boys and their alter ego the Indian "be scared of China" SDREs who will not allow anything to be said unless an Indian slaps himself and says "I will not crticize China" first

But I still find it interesting that the Chinese have started releasing information like a woman doing a strip tease.

Nothing is fully released, and an air of mystery is maintained.

This is fascinating because, to me it reveals a particular Chinese way of thinking and a Chinese way of playing with information. They are not wrong. The west too play with information in a similar way although it is less obvious to us because we tend to believe that the American way or western way of releasing specs is "right" and other methods are wrong.

The upside of this strip tease game is that it keeps people guessing; it feeds Chinese ego and feelgood to see the curiosity and sometimes fear or envy this evokes. The downside (for the Chinese) is that caginess and secrecy can hide faults and failures. The great thing about openness is that failures and faults are visible to everyone. People from other countries may laugh and mock, but knowing what is wrong and accepting that things have gone wrong is a route to future improvement.

The route to technology is arduous and there is no single route and all routes have their advantages and disadvantages. But the Chinese hide things here. It may be recalled by some that the Russians too used to be cagey. The Russians were cagey right up to the time when I was in my twenties. But nevertheless they were releasing books and papers where their technological strengths were visible.

I get the feeling that China. like Pakistan and other oligarchic states displays its military and tech prowess partly to impress its own population and keep them admiring the state which is really the only explanation for lack of openness.

Still, I think China is changing and opening up. It presents an interesting spectacle for us to watch. But we can't do that as long as we continue to see the Chinese as "human wave hordes waiting to overwhelm us as they did in 1962". Mao was an interesting phenomenon. It requires absolute dictatorial strength and a stupid peasant population to allow Mao to get away with a statement he made. He had stated that it is OK if 300 million Chinese die in a nuclear war. But he set the stage for the lens through which the rest of the world views China - as uncivilized hordes. Of course he also killed off some of China's civilization and did make the Chinese of today less civilized than they were historically. The Chinese may have become a grabbing, bragging civilization that will need to feel pain to show that others too exist on earth

China's main competition is with the west. In a strange way that is true for India as well, but we are handling it differently. While we need to retain the ability to kick Chinese butt and make them suffer with a great deal of pain if they provoke, in the long term cooperation between countries that represent 1 in 3 of all humans can only be beneficial. Neither of these can come unless we study China truthfully rather than with shill emotional talk that chides and criticises all Indians every time China farts and claims to smell like Chanel No 5.

Above all I am convinced that we cannot study or understand China if we have to lecture other Indians (or hear lectures from other Indians) about how stupid and incompetent we Indians are compared to China every time the Chinese show something. It is Indians who change the subject from China to India. It happens all too often on BRF. In my opinion that is because of a deep Indian fear and inferiority complex compared to China. We need to suck it up and get over it.

[nash]

You may continue to live in denial but I am a worried person because our military is controlled by the same GOI which cannot execute on plans. In 1962 the GOI did not call in the air force and in future the SU MKI and Brahamos squadrons may be sitting out the war in their barracks. The world gagged up against NAZI germany but that did not take the fact away that German govt of that time was highly efficient and executed mega plans time and again. I think this inablility of the GOI controlled entities to execute on plans is partly due to the fact that India is not a COUNTRY at all but is a loose collection of states with a single currency and a army and more like EUROPE rather than China or US and that throws in so many obstacles to execution including lack of will or national sentiments and the CHALTA-HAI approach is adopted widely. Execution gets better when we are down to a state - which is more like a real country - with a good local pride like Gujarat but fails again in a state like bengal where the GOVT has no local ( read bengali ) pride.

In Democracy it is "yatha praja tatha raja"..if people of bengal continue to elect an inefficient and corrupt commie government for 33 years it is not the fault of GOVT, it is the foolishness of people only.

Also they never create a option for national party like BJP or CON-GRESS in their state, so the only option left to is TMC which is also not doing great.

with all due to regards to bengali pride people of WB need to think right,do right and elect right.

sorry for OT post.

[Sagar G]

Of absolutely. I have found it very difficult to discuss Chinese developments on this thread in what I consider a rational manner because discussions are constantly interrupted by jingoistic Chinese photoshop boys and their alter ego the Indian "be scared of China" SDREs who will not allow anything to be said unless an Indian slaps himself and says "I will not crticize China" first

Fellow BRFite committing blasphemy, deserves to be slapped.

'Dragon on the High Seas' by Rahul M

[pentaiah]

All military parades displays are to impress the home crowd as well as the touring crowds aka diplomats chief guests. This is true irrespective of any nation.
Firstly we are talking about stealth aircraft which by name itself renders to secrecy no?
so why should PRC release even a picture as if to do a Demi Moore to Burt Reynolds unless it wants to impress India and sell to TSP

My not so intelligent question is plane and simple if it is indeed stealth it should not even be captured in photographs no?
It should be like invisible man comic I read as a kid Classics Senior like this

[Austin]

China's Y-20 Heavy Operational-Strategic Transport: A Hybrid Of An-170, An-77 And Il-76MD
Sergey Goncharov
MOSCOW DEFENSE BRIEF
http://mdb.cast.ru/

China’s efforts to create its own strategic military transport fleet coincided - though not entirely by accident - with the break-up of the former Soviet Union. Those efforts were spurred by the new opportunities for military hardware importers which opened up thanks to the crisis in the USSR and, in later years, in the former Soviet republics. The first Chinese contract for three Il-76MD transports was signed by the Tashkent Chkalov Aircraft Production Company (TAPOiCH), an Uzbek aircraft maker, in 1990. The planes were delivered to the Chinese in July-October 1991. They were assigned to the Chinese Air Force, although formally they were given civilian registration numbers and the color scheme of China United Airlines, a commercial carrier. In 1992 China placed an order for another seven Il-76MDs, which were delivered in September 1993- February 1994. A year later Beijing ordered another four aircraft, delivered in 1996. All 14 Il-76MD transports bought by China were given the local designation Y-13, and assigned to the Chinese Air Force’s 13th Air Division, based at the Danyang airbase in Hubei Province.1 Even though the aircraft have the Il-76MD Soviet/Russian designation, they are not equipped with a defensive cannon unit at the rear, and their outward appearance is similar to the civilian Il-76TD model. In addition, after 1991 China bought at least six used Il-76MD aircraft from Uzbekistan. 2

Another stage in the development of China’s strategic military transport fleet began a decade later. In September 2005, during the 12th session of the Russian-Chinese intergovernmental commission on military and technical cooperation, Rosoboronexport and China’s National Defense Ministry signed a contract for 34 Il-76MD transports, four Il-78M aerial refueling tankers, and 51 spare D-30KP-2 engines, worth a total of 1.045bn dollars. TAPOiCH was assigned the role of the main subcontractor. Deliveries were due to commence in 2007 and finish in 2012.

But then the Uzbek company began to play for time; it tried to revise the terms of the contract in an effort to get a better deal. Its primary argument was that about 95 per cent of the aircraft’s components had to be imported from Russia, making the final product more expensive. Besides, it soon turned out that the Tashkent-based company simply could not resume mass production of the IL-76 in such a short time - most of its specialists had quit, and there was no-one left to assemble such a large batch of aircraft. TAPOiCH could guarantee the delivery of only 16 planes - that is how many finished airframes it had left from previous years. As a result, in March 2006 TAPOiCH rejected the unit price which had already been agreed with the Chinese, and refused to sign the sub-contract with Rosoboronexport. The Chinese contract fell through.3

It is only in late 2006 that the Russian MoD officially announced that TAPOiCH would not be able to meet the deadlines under the latest Chinese contract. But less than a month after the Tashkent company refused to sign the subcontract with Rosoboronexport - namely, in April 2006 - Chinese trade representatives in Ukraine approached ANTK Antonov, a Ukrainian aircraft maker. They said China wanted the Ukrainian company’s help in developing a new operational-strategic transport. That request went beyond the scope of the already agreed areas of Ukrainian-Chinese cooperation in aircraft design and manufacture. (ANTK Antonov took part in the China-2000 AirShow in Zhuhai on November 6-12, 2000, where it signed a cooperation agreement with China’s AVIC II aircraft corporation. The two companies agreed to work together on upgrading China’s An-12 and Y-8 aircraft to the Y-8F600 specification, and on bringing the An-2 / Y-5 fleet to the An-3 specification, which has a turboprop engine. Two years later ANTK Antonov signed another deal at the AirShow China-2002 event, a design contract with AVIC I. The Ukrainian company undertook «to conduct the entire range of works related to designing the wing of the ARJ 21 future regional aircraft»)4. The Ukrainians said they were ready to provide the required assistance. A few months later a large Chinese delegation, which included representatives of the Chinese MoD and of the Industry and IT ministry, came to Kiev for a low-key visit to discuss the details.

As an alternative to the Uzbek-Russian Il-76MD transport, the Ukrainians offered the Chinese the An-70, which had already entered limited production. After a brief pause - which the Chinese probably made for diplomatic appearances’ sake - that offer was turned down. One of the reasons was the insufficient maximum payload the An-70 can carry (47 tonnes, whereas the combat weight of China’s Type 98 main battle tank is 48 tonnes, rising to almost 50 tonnes when the MBT is equipped with an extra fuel tank and detachable self-entrenching gear5). Even more importantly, the maximum range of the An-70 with maximum payload is only 1,350 km. The Chinese wanted at least 3,650 km, which is what the Il-76MD offers, and would have preferred the figure to go as high as 4,000 km or more.

Another reason why Beijing refused to consider entering the An-70 into service with the Chinese Air Force was the D-27 turbofan engine used on that aircraft. To begin with, the Chinese knew that the engine had turned out to be fairly unreliable during the first phase of the An-70 flight tests in Ukraine. Besides (and perhaps more importantly), they had decided that it would be impossible to launch production of such a complex engine at China’s own factories. The Chinese military asked instead that the future transport be equipped with the tried and tested Russian D-30KP-2 engine, which China’s own industry was already gearing to start making under the local WS-18 designation.

ANTK Antonov said the wishes expressed by the Chinese could be accommodated. By early 2007 it had set up a new VTL (Heavy Transport Aircraft) working group, which was soon given the green light to start developing a heavy transport using the existing designs for the An-77, a turbojet version of the An-70, which had earlier been put on hold. (Officially, however, ANTK Antonov, which is the head company of the Antonov State Enterprise, is merely providing advice and consultation to the team designing the new aircraft.) The take-off weight of the aircraft was increased from 132 tonnes to 187 tonnes, and its maximum payload went up from 47 to 50 tonnes. (The volume of the cargo bay was increased by adding a 2-meter insert in the airframe in front of the center-wing section.) The original An-77 design relied on four CFM56-5A16 bypass turbofan engines; these were replaced by four D-30KP-2 bypass turbofan engines in the Y-20. The aircraft retained its ability to take-off and land using short landing strips, although the take-off length went up to 900m. (The solution for increasing the thrust is the same as the one used in the An-77. It was first introduced in the C-17A Globemaster III and boils down to directing the exhaust jet of the bypass turbofan engine at the high-lift flaps. In the An-70 extra lift is achieved by using the SV-27 propfan, which sits on the D-27 engine’s shaft, to blow a stream of air at the wing.)

Work on this design, which was initially designated as the Y-XX, continued for three years. It is widely believed that first information about the Y-XX, which by that time had been re-designated as the Y-20, was published on December 23, 2009 by the China Military Aviation portal. The report referred to the Y-20 military transport being developed in China by Xian Aircraft Industrial (Group) Corporation. In actual fact, however, first news about the project appeared on the discussion boards of Russian aerospace news websites almost a year before the article on the China Military Aviation website - namely, in the autumn of 2008. When the new aircraft was “declassified” in that article, its specifications were still very similar to those of the Il-76, with a maximum take-off weight of 200 tonnes and a maximum payload of 50 tonnes. The prototypes and the first mass-produced aircraft were expected to be fitted with the Russian D-30KP-2 engines. The later versions of the Y-20 were to be equipped with the Chinese clone of that engine, the WS-18, or its WS-118 modification. The first Y-20 prototype was slated to take to the air in 2012.7

But serious changes were made to the Y-20 design in 2010. The reason for that is thought to have been the entry into service with the Chinese army of the Type 99-IIA main battle tank, also known as the Type 99A2. The combat weight of this tank, which has many similarities to Germany’s Leopard IIA6, is 58 tonnes.8 That has translated into greater payload requirements for the Y-20, which is still expected to be able to carry even the heaviest tanks now in service with the Chinese Army. As a result the whole project has switched to a different underlying design by ANTK Antonov, the An-170, which is another variation of the An-70. The An-170 is a heavy operational-strategic transport which Antonov worked on in the late 1980s - early 1990s. The project was in competition with the Il-106, a rival design by the Ilyushin Bureau. The Il-106 was announced the winner by the Soviet authorities, but owing to the crisis which ensued after the break-up of the Soviet Union neither aircraft went into production. The An-170 is much larger and heavier than the An-70, with a take-off weight of 230 tonnes and a maximum payload of 60 tonnes. Another difference is the »regular» wing profile of the An-170, whereas the An-70 uses the so-called «supercritical» profile. The latest version of the Y-20 project still relies on the four D-30KP-2 bypass turbofan engines. Naturally, this means that the excellent short take-off and landing specifications of the original design are now out of the question- but there is every reason to believe that these specifications are still fairly good by normal standards.

Development of the Y-20 appears to be nearing completion, although the deadline for the maiden flight of the first prototype may still be pushed back a little. In a press release of May 12, 2011 XAIC confidently promised that the aircraft would take to the air before the XVIII Congress of the Communist Party of China, which is scheduled for later this year. But that press release was later removed from the company’s official website.9

The Y-20 project has given a new lease of life to the D-30KP engine, which is made in Rybinsk for the Il-76 aircraft. (The version in production since 1982 is the D-30KP-2, which can maintain its thrust specifications at higher surrounding air temperatures.) Despite its venerable age, the engine, which was launched in 1963, still remains in production thanks to Chinese custom. According to the press service of NPO Saturn, a contract between Rosoboronexport and China for 55 D-30KP-2 engines, to be delivered by 2012, entered into force in April 2009. The first batch was delivered to the customer in November 2009, another thee batches followed in March-October 2010, and the final fifth batch of 11 engines was delivered in March 2011. Although these five batches are sufficient to fit almost all the Il-76 aircraft currently in service in China with new engines, the Chinese have recently placed an even larger order. In late 2011 they signed a contract with NPO Saturn for 184 new D-30KM-2 engines, to be delivered over four years.10 Beijing is not saying what it needs those engines for - but it seems clear that most if not all of them will be installed on the Y-20 transports.

Project specifications of the AVIC Y-20 heavy transport11

Maximum payload, tonnes 60-65
Maximum speed, km/h 750-800
Service ceiling, m 13,000
Service range with maximum payload, km 4,400
Dimensions, m
Length 49
Wingspan 50
Height 15
Wing surface, square meters 310
Maximum take-off weight, tonnes 220
Empty weight, tonnes 100
Engines: type C… number C… engine thrust Bypass turbofan D-30KP-2, 4C…12,000 kg(f)
Crew 3

1. A. Manyakin, A. Fomin. KJ-2000. China's all-seeing eye in the sky/Vzlyot, No 11, 2009.

2. K. Chuprin, China's power in the sky, Harvest, Minsk, 2007.

3. O. Sharifov, Dead loop for TAPOiCH/Fergana - international news agency, November 15, 2010 (http://www.fergananews.com/article.php?id=6798).

4. S. Goncharov. Taking off in parts/Defense Express, No 7-8, 2006.

5. China's military equipment and hardware. Issue One. Tanks. Otvaga.narod.ru Internet project, Saransk, 2003.

6. V. Shunkov. Special purpose planes, Harvest, Minsk, 1999.

7. Aviatsiya i vremya, No 1, 2010 (Panorama section).

8. A. Berdnikov, China's Type 99A2 main battle tank/Zarubezhnoye Voennoye Obozreniye, No 1, 2012.

9. China's new heavy transport could take to the sky in 2012 - June 28, 2011 - Fifth-Generation Aircraft (http://pakfa.ucoz.ru/news/kitajckij_tja ... 06-28-1968).

10. A. Fomin. The Russian aircraft engine industry. Yearly results and plans / Vzlyot, No 4, 2012.

11. Table compiled from the following sources: bmpd - Chassis for China's Y-20 future transport (http://bmpd.livejournal.com/266273.html), SATURN Research and Production Company. Corporate website (http://www.npo-saturn.ru/).
Print version

[Don]

China's Y-20 Heavy Operational-Strategic Transport: A Hybrid Of An-170, An-77 And Il-76MD
Sergey Goncharov
MOSCOW DEFENSE BRIEF
http://mdb.cast.ru/

But serious changes were made to the Y-20 design in 2010. The reason for that is thought to have been the entry into service with the Chinese army of the Type 99-IIA main battle tank, also known as the Type 99A2. The combat weight of this tank, which has many similarities to Germany’s Leopard IIA6, is 58 tonnes.8 That has translated into greater payload requirements for the Y-20, which is still expected to be able to carry even the heaviest tanks now in service with the Chinese Army. As a result the whole project has switched to a different underlying design by ANTK Antonov, the An-170, which is another variation of the An-70. The An-170 is a heavy operational-strategic transport which Antonov worked on in the late 1980s - early 1990s. The project was in competition with the Il-106, a rival design by the Ilyushin Bureau. The Il-106 was announced the winner by the Soviet authorities, but owing to the crisis which ensued after the break-up of the Soviet Union neither aircraft went into production. The An-170 is much larger and heavier than the An-70, with a take-off weight of 230 tonnes and a maximum payload of 60 tonnes. Another difference is the »regular» wing profile of the An-170, whereas the An-70 uses the so-called «supercritical» profile. The latest version of the Y-20 project still relies on the four D-30KP-2 bypass turbofan engines. Naturally, this means that the excellent short take-off and landing specifications of the original design are now out of the question- but there is every reason to believe that these specifications are still fairly good by normal standards.

The first flight could happen this year. It will be a step forward for Chinese aviation when it happens. One small step at a time.

[subhamoy.das]

subhamoy.das ji,

Their are other threads for this discussion on the efficiency of the DRDO and the ISRO on this forum, Please feel free to participate in them. This thread is for dissecting the PRC capabilities and not for discussion the Indian PSUs.

Shush Pratyushji shush! PRC capabilities on this thread are the very place where Indians get reminded of India's weaknesses and fears and feel the need to lecture other Indians who are all dumb and do not know. Did you know all the things that subhamoyda has written? I did not know. I thought everything was fine in India and I know that most BRFites feel like me. Just listen to the lecture and learn.

It is not fear but frustration at been beaten by the Chinese in almost every field where it could well have been the other way round but for the GOI. I am sure you are kidding when u mention "all is well in India..." and if not then come and live here or else tell me which state you live and I will come and live there.

[shiv]

if not then come and live here or else tell me which state you live and I will come and live there.

I live in America, Austin, California. God bless America.

But have you checked the subject of this thread? If you keep going of topic I will report your post to the admins.

[subhamoy.das]

WRONG. Refer to economic growth of 8% p.a. since 1991. Refer to consistent improvement in every social and economic indicator since 1947.

This growth is driven by the INDIAN PRIVATE sector and as - aired in public forums again and again - INSPITE of the GOVT and in areas where GOI did not meddled. Look up the HDI of the world and you will know where GOI stands.

WRONG. Refer to 1971 liberation of Bangladesh. Refer to 1987 Sumdrong Chu face-off with China.

Talking about the Chinese here. And how would u respond to the public domain reports of how the CHINESE military intruding into Arunachal Pradesh at will and our GOI just covers it up and does not have the balls to authorised the IA to engage?

WRONG thread for worshipping fascism

I am just worshiping a well oil ed execution engine here

WRONG. Bharat-varsh is several thousand years older than US, EU and all their grand-daddies.

[

You are comparing faith to country here.

WRONG. To test your theory, please could you climb aboard an Agni V rocket on 13 November and request DRDO to launch you in the general direction of Antarctica. Please don't return. Ever.

JINGOISM will not alter the fact. While I can certainly climb on a AGNI V but a CHINESE citizen counter part of me can climb on a ROCKET and go 2 times farther ( 11K range ) and have the option of picking on multiple destinations ( MIRV ) and have the option of landing on a SATELLITE ( A-SAT ) and possibly coming back ( i am sure they will soon launch a re-usable version of the same ). And one final attempt - I could have had these same options as well but will have to wait for another 20 years because of GOI.

[shiv]

Above all I am convinced that we cannot study or understand China if we have to lecture other Indians (or hear lectures from other Indians) about how stupid and incompetent we Indians are compared to China every time the Chinese show something. It is Indians who change the subject from China to India. It happens all too often on BRF. In my opinion that is because of a deep Indian fear and inferiority complex compared to China. We need to suck it up and get over it.

It is not fear but frustration at been beaten by the Chinese in almost every field

..touche

[subhamoy.das]

I am using the sentence "public sector" to represent all entities which are funded by GOI

Please educate yourself.
I am sure you would have heard of Companies Act.

http://www.india.gov.in/spotlight/spotl ... ?id=78#mf2

I improvised the term to represent all entities controlled and funded by GOI via public tax payer money. You are focusing on the term while the issue is that the Chinese GOVT is far ahead of the GOI in execution and that is hurting the country big time. Last 10 years is a complete waste.

[Christopher Sidor]

J-20 with its massive internal bays can serve primarily as two ways. One as an air-dominance fighter. Second as a long-range marintime fighter-bomber, target USN/IN Carrier Battel Groups. This leaves air-to-ground role. There J-31 might be able to fill in the role. From the first look it seems that PLAN/PLAAF are following USN/USAF lead.

Americans have seperate types of fighters, because they believe in specialist roles. But in case of India we believe in Omni-role or a fighter doing all sorts of sorties. So India has Rafale which can serve in air-dominance as well as ground strike operations. And we are slowly taking SU-30 along the same path.

Just like USA F-35 fighter, J-31 might be offered to other countries, noteably Pakistan. This would give PAF bragging points against IAF.

It seems like J-31 and F-35 bear striking similarities. Look at the image given below

Observe that F-35 is a single engine fighter while J-31 looks like a twin-engine. This obviously gives certain advantages to J-31 but leaves a host of other questions unanswered. For example will J-31 have, like the F-35B, a V/STOL variant. J-31 may have a carrier variant, but this will imply that PLAAF is going to field a CATOBAR carrier. That will truly be a game changer. Our IAC-1 is not going to be a CATOBAR carrier.

What is unknow is the state of avionics that is going to be on this fighter. That will truly define how capable this fighter is going to be.

But it is kudos to the Chinese to spend so much money on two stealth fighters.

[Don]

From behind

From Side