Bharat Rakshak

Absolutely no argument with that. That is why the presence of a large fan on the outside is indicative of cooling, not heating. That is what I meant by my post.

why would one require to transport a road vehicle on other road vehicle?
1) i assume chinese tanks are capable of travelling on road.
2) with a tank on board of approx 45 tons wouldnt one require bigger engines ==>> more fuel ==> more operating costs?
3) in case i dont want to damage the road wouldnt rubber padding on tracks be better option? or driving the tank off the road (again i assume it is capable of travelling off road)
4) why not rail transport? i think i would be cheaper and faster.
5) instead of deploying can be taken back to garage for repairs???

Tanks are transported from point a to point b using trailers - same as you see in the pics. This is more efficient and economical. Those tanks engines and tracks have finite life and are meant to be used during exercises/wars. You would not want to spend that engine time in simply going from point a to point b. Secondly, tanks do 1kms in 4-5L of diesel - better to transport them using those trailers. Saves fuel and engines/tracks from wear and tear.

thanks for the info.

Chinese-official-leaves-to-resume-border-talks-with-India

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/Chinese-official-leaves-to-resume-border-talks-with-India/articleshow/11507424.cms

It is a Class2 Highway.

BTW, Chinese highway hierarchy for your information:
- Expressway, full access control, at least 4 lanes;
- Class1 Highway, at least 4 lanes;
- Class2 Highway, 2 lanes with hard shoulder (enough for parking or running slow speed vehicles);
- Class3 Highway, 2 lanes paved road

Chinese State Councillor's article in The Hindu newspaper

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 511326.cms

Chinese leaders communicating directly with the Indian public can be used to manipulate Indian public opinion with lies. Can Indian leaders write similar articles in the People's Daily? Next the Chinese can start writing articles about Dalai Lama, Arunachal Pradesh, new Indian army divisions, S. China Sea, internal problems of India etc.

Chinese army’s first training simulation game

Co-developed by the People's Liberation Army, Glorious Mission, the online, first-person shooter game allows players to destroy enemies that resemble U.S. forces.

The status of Chinese Nuclear Submarines.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hticbm ... 20116.aspx

Can anyone comment on the credibility of the source?

Lt General Parnaik's warning on China

http://www.timesnow.tv/Top-Generals-war ... 393849.cms

Top General's warning to China
17 Jan 2012, 0917 hrs IST, TIMES NOW
As the fifteenth round of indo-china boundary talks begin, efforts are on to build confidence between the two sides amid contentious issues that have shadowed bilateral talks for the past few weeks.

Even with that process underway comes a word of caution from one of Indian army's top generals. The GOC in charge of the all important northern command has reported a number of cases of transgressions from the Chinese side, including the strategically vital Demchok raising concern over a potential threat.

Lt General Parnaik may have stopped from categorically calling china a threat to India but his concerns over a potential Chinese march through Tibet cannot be ignored.

Shivshankar Menon is likely to work out details of a pact on the border mechanism with his chinese counterpart today. But General Parnaik's word would weigh heavy on any such understanding.

China banking on Pakistan for India intel?
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 98640.aspx

Well Indian’s have free access to write in the Indian version of the ‘People’s Daily’ a.k.a the Hindu; see this article for example, http://hindu.com/2006/11/24/stories/200 ... 1100.htm...

Jokes apart, does it really matter that Chinese politicians are allowed to write in Indian newspapers, even blatantly biased ones like the Hindu. So long as the citizens have the right and freedom to counter, ignore and or write against the Chinese viewpoints howsoever disseminated, let them shout themselves hoarse. Freedom of speech is a fundamental right, and an important corollary would be the right to hear others.

- Mike.

You have an excellent point. I agree with you with the caveat that Indian democracy and freedom of speech etc is for Indians as well as foreigners living or visiting India. I think this freedom should not include leaders of adverserial counries/organizations that claim Indian territory.

How China is advancing its military reach



The 3 carrier battle groups totals out to the following:

• 3 x Aircraft Carriers + 1 x training/reserve carrier
• 120 x Fighters
• 24 x FFG/DDG
• 9 x SSN
• ?? x Support Ships (at the minimum 3 to 6 x Large Fleet Tankers)

Indians will respect only those countries which respect Indians and have similar freedom. Indians demand similar reciprocating access.
Oppressing monks are not the way Indians can be impressed.

[/quote]

OT, but a small correction; foreigners, non-citizens, barbarians are entitled to only human rights at best, only citizens have the right to speak and to hear what they want. though even this right of citizens is not as strong as the american freedom of speech right.

- Mike.

I want to ring in my endorsement too. I mean, you and I, both of us are just simpletons and will be taken in by any propaganda anyone would write. The worst possible result is that the common man make up his own mind about the nature of our adversaries and we can't really have that. I mean our government, which is as pure as driven snow, feeds us with the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, while the Chinese will always lie through their teeth and brainwash our simpleton unwashed masses. Our Mai-baap sarkar should limit hostile information so as not to confuse us. Satyameva Jayate.


What is the perceived problem here? That they might be lying or that they might be telling the truth?

That is not how free press works ... we can't/shouldn't stop anybody from writing (unless it leads to violence) ... selective censorship is a dangerous tool ... who decides what has to be censored.

The whole idea is about openness ... if you think that somebody's points are invalid, you provide your counterpoint ... if you think somebody is portraying his/her bias or creating false propaganda/thoughts, call it!

I would hate the day when India chooses to take step back and moves towards the stupid rules of censorship as exercised in China!

Would I be wrong in suggesting that Chinese writing in our newspapers will allow us to attack their line of thought too. I am salivating at the thought. Lets feed Hu to the dogs. or did I miss some perspective?

Yeah you forgot one perspective, An alternative to reflexively "attacking their line of thought" would be about trying to figure what they are saying, and what do they really mean?

Lets see what he is saying, so we can "attack his line of thought".
[1] Cooperate to economy, trade and finance.
[2] Strengthen people to people ties.
[3] Improve political trust through dialogue and communication
[4] Expand cooperation in international affairs.

How about a saner, less suicidal take on the relationship?
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-vs-china-dai-bingguo-shivshankar-menon-pla-indian-army/1/168402.html

another interesting article,
http://business-standard.com/india/news/shyam-saran-talking-downtension/462115/

FWIW, eurasia review reports that China has moved ICBMs to Tibet region

^^Funny, Euresiareview.com does not come in browser and is accessible through Anon proxy. Is it gagged in India??

However from the same article

Finance has asked question about threat from China two years from now.

I can see it.

there are vast flat dry unopulated areas in tibet where 50 airfields can be made in desired. we dont seem to have the luxury down here in gangetic plains.

The problem is that most of these are bromides and are sometimes dangerous ideas:


China is considered by most nations to be at least a bit of a rogue player in trade. Indian industries suffer and will continue to suffer because of China's currency manipulation. Most foreign companies that have dealt with China in China have lost out in various ways (including industrial espionage) in the long run. Increasing co-operation will just mean more Chinese access to India's markets at this point. Except on a case by case basis, it might be safer for India


what exactly does this mean? Given that china supports various violent Indian communist/ Maoist/Naxal movements, allowing greater access to Chinese citizens is a security risk. There are already a lot of people to people ties given that India and China have large expatriate populations which often mix with each other. It does not really seem to made any difference. Also the Chinese have a large number of supporters in the left who have been to china / have had contacts with Chinese people. This has benefited China a lot through easy access to propaganda channels in India. It does not appear to have benefited India though.


Sure communication is always good. But in perspective talks with China have been going on forever -- if there isn't much trust by now, some more talks wont help.


India already does this with mixed results. There were suspicions that India had been played by china in the climate talks some time back. Agin co-operation should be only on a case to case basis...

hailinfreq, yes I am aware of Chinese economic dumping, diplomatic support to Pakistan, arms supplies to naxals etc etc.

An call is currently being made to improve ties; this should be welcomed and reciprocated. Yes, China will maneuverer towards its own national advantage, as will India. Either would be stupid not to.

But to attack the line of thought that "we should cooperate and become better friends" is nonsensical. What next? Dismiss motherhood and apple pies cause the Chinese approve of it?

No one is calling out for blindly trusting our adversaries. But when a hand is extended in friendship (however insincerely) it must be reciprocated. Just don't drop the stick, keep hold of it in the left hand.



If people to people exchanges are largely limited to expat populations then no wonder it has not made any difference, but I agree with you that P2P will not make a fundamental impact on mutual trust or national priorities, rather it will according to the old saw promote 'familiarity that breeds contempt'.

IMO, The point of the people to people contact is less to do building institutional trust, but as a check on each of our own governments. If the national governments are the sole source of the adversarial image there is a non-trivial chance of 'they hate us for our freedoms' moments.

Regarding discouraging people to people contact : you have heard of similar things tried elsewhere - Berlin Wall, Iron curtain, Great Firewall of china etc. Doesn't have a very good track record nor works very well.

China Plays Rough
India breathes fire as dragon China dominates

Other than the first point, the last four hardly seem to be throwing in the towel.

Rajrang – “Chinese leaders communicating directly with the Indian public can be used to manipulate Indian public opinion with lies.”
mikehurst – “Well Indian’s have free access to write in the Indian version of the ‘People’s Daily’ a.k.a the Hindu”

ravi_g - "will allow us to attack their line of thought too"

becomes

'reflexively "attacking their line of thought"'

Only goes to show how a person can only further his own goals. Surely that is why the Chinese would want to address our people, direct. To be able to further their interests. Say for example the Danes don’t care enough to want to have a contact with me nor do I itch for it. No mutual interest no any mutual enmity no counter claims.
Though this is unprecedented, a foreign govt. addressing the citizens of a country that it does not directly govern. Even if not unprecedented, I hope you would grant that this is not the standard practice. At least I don’t remember being addressed to, by say a confidante of the Amerikhan/Pakistani Head of State. Someone who is “said to be close to” Amerikhan/Pakistani Head of State. Have you heard words to the effect that "There does not exist such a thing as Amerikhan/Pakistani 's attempt to 'attack India' or 'suppress India's development'. Amerikhan/Pakistani will remain committed to the path of peaceful development,"?
Badar when a lawyer goes to work he carries a vakalatnama, when you report to work you carry your ID card around your neck. Have you been shown any protocol for such an interact as you have ended up supporting?
Personally I am all game for this too, so long as the addresser and his appologists can take what comes with it.
Badar your 4 points have a whole hearted support from me. Only thing that seems prudent is to have the ability to judge xyz from ‘hindi chini bhai bhai’ which I am sure a senior like yourself on the forum (240 posts to my 100) will grant is possible with only a through hammering of the proposal. If there is any substance to the proposal it will outlast the hammering.

ravi_g, ambassadors writing opinion pieces in newspapers is hardly novel or comment worthy.



It was a fluff piece to reduce tension which was being stoked by some irresponsible journalism.



No such thing as a "forum senior". Your 100 posts are probably more clearly thought out and better articulated then my usual mischief mongering. Quality of a poster is not a metric of number of posts or his duration on the forum nor even how popular his viewpoint is. Attack mine (or anyone else's viewpoint) as you wish irrespective of weather they are senior, so long as the attacks do not become personal.

If there is anyone you should defer to in this forum they are the moderators. Not because they can ban you, but because they do the thankless service of keeping riff-Raff (like your truly) in check and enforcing a basic level of civil discourse.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b4b_1327077154


ha ha chinese military training video

DF-21 Analysis:
http://the-diplomat.com/2012/01/20/behi ... le-hype/3/

Caveat – Badar, in the following, my quoting from your post is not meant to be confrontational. Certain parts were important because they represented something that is real. What I am writing below is more of a ‘message in the bottle’ kind of post.



To my view message in the write up by the “Chinese Special Representative, State Councilor Dai Bingguo” (not the ambassador, more like the ‘shuttle diplomat’ HK telling Indians what his vision for Indo-US relations would be) was reasonably clear and reasonably successful in its scope though not in scale. The scale of the success was not much simply because the size of this country and its diversity is too great to be handled by one such piece. I am sure the Chinese are aware of this limitation of writing in ‘The Hindu’ and arranging for things such that ‘ToI’ lets it be known to a certain type of people about which way the wind blows. Had the Chinese been interested in addressing the whole of India with this message, they would have choosen more then one media and more than one media outlets in more than one language. Something I am damn sure they know how to do. This piece is addressed to Indians who read these particular papers and :

1) are either amenable to ‘Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai’

2) for want of a better word, the Jingos.

To the first set it is meant to hold out a carrot, they may or may not be holding a stick in their left hand. But this is actually a very small portion of the total message because people with hope (expectations) are likely to hang on, to something, anything even nothing. They don’t actually need to be addressed for the most part. At least not in this manner. Expectation is enough for most compliances.

The larger part of the message was to the Jingos. The great Dai Bing, the one who is “said to be close to the Chinese President” knows that quite a lot of people in India do get affected by the “irresponsible journalism”, that, as BK pointed, does not act “mature”. Even amongst the Jingos the Vernacular Jingo can be safely left out. After all this message is not even discussed by people reading “Dainik Jagaran” or other such vernacular papers. I wonder if it was even reported by the vernacular press. So message is more for people like Rajrang, mikehurst, ravi_g (hereinafter refered to as the BRhees) and a lot of others like us who are not on BR (hereinafter ‘bhais’). That is why it extracted a response from Ranjrang and mikehurst and thanks to Badar, now from me too. To me it sounded like my opponent telling me “I will payoff your countrymen the consideration they are looking for, the way they are looking for and then I will drown out your proposal of the desh dharma”. It is designed to extract a response of denial &/of impotent rage from the BRhees and the Bhais alike. Why I believe, it has been reasonably successful is not because it extracted any impotent rage form BRhees (Only 3 BRhees have expressed anything against it out of the 150 plus that are usually there on the site on a normal day and hardly any of the expression was impotent). It is successful because it actually got at least one (probably two) fellow BR member to talk about the likely benefits and at the same time it was not thought over (opposite of denial). I am sure the views of such members are also read and shared by at least a few of the reading members and lurkers. I am also not reflexively against these views.
It is rather obvious that the Dai Bing article is actuated by the advice of the Chinese ambassador who threw a fit when queried by and Indian Journalist of the ‘irresponsible’ kind, who in turn was in all probability advised by the ‘responsible elements’ in the media.




To me, it looked like, the Journalists in last few months have actually started playing a more engaging role especially since they saw the huge crowds drawn in by Baba Ramdev and Anna Hazare and got convinced that national issues have a real market. It was in this atmosphere that the Chinese shenanigans were reported by the media.

I would say that the sudden appearance of a "backbone" in the Indian jellyfish,is actually more of a reflex action of our babudom,who consider themselves the true heirs to the "heaven born" ICS of the Raj era,than any new resolve by the GOI.The current dispensation well knowing how its neglect of the Chinese threat,has left India weak and exposed in the Himalayan regions,ripe for another Chinese "lesson" of the likes of '62.It is extremely fearful that another "lesson" in realpolitik diplomacy
from China,will bury the govt. and the party.

ravi_g, Usually when such "opinion leading/forming/disseminating" pieces are published, the are published in one leading "newspaper of record" and left at that. It is sufficient to publish in one major newspaper as the quotes, analysis and straight-forward reports will be echoed and disseminated across the rest. These kind of pieces are treated quite differently than a press release which is shoveled out to everyone over every media.


I don't think this was intended for the jingoes or man-on-the-street directly. My reading is that this was directed squarely at the opinion leaders and opinion-manufacturers in India (as is usually the case with such pieces).

What do you make of the fact that the original article is a pure tone piece with no arguments at all?


I am lost as to how you came to this conclusion from that piece. I am surely missing some vital ingredient that you saw but for the life of me I can't make out what it is.


Anna Hazare caught wind for a while precisely because the issue he was addressing made a personal impact on the vast majority of the citizens. "National issues" are still given short thrift my most Indians (Shooting at the border - meh; Shooting in Bombay - omg! omg! omg!)

The news media made a fuss about the Chinese Shenanigans(?) because it allowed them a fresh cycle of breathless reporting in the shrill Burkha Dutt vein.

Badar you are focusing on where its printed, how its printed, who are usually addressed by these pieces. I am in fact agreeing that the piece is a weak one with no reasoning...nothing to back it up. Which brings us to a new question. Will the "opinion leaders and opinion-manufacturers in India" even give a thought to such a Pastor's sermon?



My comment was in view of the context that I am dead sure is entirely within your grasp, where the gap between what is said and what is done is such that it makes the whole excercise of addressing such pieces to "opinion leaders and opinion-manufacturers in India", meaningless.

Here is what Brahma Chellaney an acknowledged "opinion leaders and opinion-manufacturers in India" says in response to the same message when delivered from a different mouth.


“Manmohan Singh's emphatic statement in the Lok Sabha last month that "China will not attack India" thus seems more than gratuitous. Disturbingly, the more timorous Singh has been, the more belligerent China has become.”
But the context here is not Indian gratuity and Chinese extortionism, which is what everybody already sees. The context was “The deception began much earlier, in keeping with its perceived utility in both peacetime and wartime. One example was Premier Zhou En-lai's 1960 New Delhi visit, during which he dangled the carrot of a border settlement without putting his money where his mouth was.”
Badar I hope you are not discounting the existence of the POV that places the stick in the right hand instead of the left.


Also lets leave this at that, the piece doesnt deserve it and we run the risk of falling into arguments about chickens and eggs.

ravi_g, I agree. The only interesting point is that the piece was written at all, and what it signals.

I would just say that my own perception of the situation is more attuned with that of the PM than with BC.

Chinese soldiers play with explosives

1. Wear dhoti
2. Click link for video.
3. Observe dhoti shivering

Thanks for posting!!

This is as fake as it gets. Propagandu.

The most fake thing about the video is the "smoking parcel". Someone plunges the detonator of a pre-positioned explosive as soon as the circle of men hit the ground. And that is only explosion 1

Watch the second one closely. The man on the extreme left passes the parcel and when he gets it back he drops it near his own feet. The men jump and there is a puny explosion just before the clip is cut off - totally unlike the faked big explosion earlier. And the second puny explosion occurs in a different place wfrom where the smoking parcel falls.