China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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ashi
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ashi »

shiv wrote: To China's credit is that at least in public there is no blanket assumption by the Chinese that someone is too big to beat or that the Chinese are not good enough. It may actually be true that China is not good enough and is blowing its trumpet too loudly, but the Chinese will not say that about themselves. Chinese spokespersons, such as yourself, (rightly or wrongly) express supreme confidence in China all the time.

It is neither necessary to believe what you say nor dismiss what you say. Developments will speak for themselves provided Indians allow themselves the chance to watch China's rise (or otherwise) without intense self flagellation and uncontrollable fear of China.
I don't see any uncontrollable fear of China in this forum. I see uncontrollable mocking and deriding of China here. Maybe there is a connection between these?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

ashi wrote: I don't see any uncontrollable fear of China in this forum. I see uncontrollable mocking and deriding of China here. Maybe there is a connection between these?
Yes. There is a connection. But you need not concern yourself with that. I can't speak for others but I do appreciate the links to news and photos of Chinese military developments even if I belong to the mocking category. This thread was designed primarily to discuss the Chinese military developments and NOT for Indians to have an apoplectic fit to advise other Indians a kick up their own backsides every time a Chinese news item is posted. Or even to discuss Indian responses to Chinese developments, or comparisons of Indian hardware with Chinese hardware. There are separate threads for that.

On here news of Chinese developments, true or photoshopped will be welcomed.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Sanku »

shiv wrote: 2. India is controlled by a sickula elite who don't know what India wants.
OT, but I would say that despite everything, it is probably India that does the best job of its govt staying in tune with its population, despite the multiple issues we mentioned. India's external stance, is often a reflection of its internal demographics. India's external problem can be solved internally.

OTHO -- US too (like China), has a massive split personality with the citizens view and the state response being two very different things. The disconnect between aam-adami and state is probably greater elsewhere than in India. That is both India's strength and weakness (when viewed from a Chinese thought prism)
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Karan M »

shiv wrote:The question that seems to keep cropping up is "What does China really want?"

My own view on this is to ask, "When China does something is it all of China that is doing it, or is it one influential core group or ruling elite who are doing that?"

If we look at the way we answer this question for ourselves using other examples, we have, in the past said that
1. Pakistanis are a fractured lot and that many things done by "Pakistan" are merely the actions of the controlling army and Islamic extremists
2. India is controlled by a sickula elite who don't know what India wants.
3. We say this about the US as well where we conclude that here is a conspiracy that keeps a tight knit elite in power.

If we apply the same logic to China it means that "What china does" is merely a reflection of the actions of the core communist politburo and not the entire Chinese nation working in unison. It also means that the question "What does China really want?" can be answered by saying that "What China appears to want is only what the Chicom Politburo wants to be made public. It need not reflect what Chinese people want"

If the politburo finds it necessary to keep up the shrill border dispute cry it might not mean that al Chinese are united in that. It might well mean that all China's disputes are highlighted by the politburo to keep the military well funded. In a country which has ethnic and economic disparity a powerful military is useful for the government. If the military is used for internal discipline to a great extent in addition to external threats it needs funding. But no government can claim funding for internal discipline alone. The external threat has to be played up. So the Chines politburo names everyone else as an enemy. If they stop doing that then we have to suspect a ploy, because they only want to survive and hold on to power while controlling 1.4 billion people.

I am not stating this as a great revelation or a previously unknown tactic. I am just putting a reminder of what seem to be facts to my mind. Conflict with China should be aimed at shaming the politburo and military leaders so they have to answer their people for the extra funding and power the Chinese military is getting.
Judging by the brainless behaviour of many of the china stlong crowd who post here (yet to see even a single serious poster who can do more than copy paste pictures or blocks of text or present a solid reasoned argument as versus trolling), its pretty evident that the communist party has a complete lockdown on their mental processes. Unless the folks posting here are the 50-centers, in which case they are just paid for their "work".

Its amazing to see how brainwashed they are though, the inability to understand nuance or debate using any sort of valid reference system which admits the rampant corruption and flaws in their own....these are severe weaknesses.

The average educated Indian who posts on the internet is usually very aware of India's weaknesses & is intensely critical. The Chinese on the other hand behave like zombies, judging by this crowd & are willing to go with whatever rubbish they are fed by their "rulers", as long as the glitzy images of some fighter, tank etc keep appearing. How shallow is that?

In which case, India does have to assume that its dealing with a populace whose elite are thoroughly in "synch" with the communist party & its tendency to believe "might makes right".
In the long term though, we need to maintain a strong defence and keep our powder dry, to dissuade the party idiots from starting a conflict.

The inherent contradictions in their system are only going to pile up. Their seems to be no remedial system in place to even barely keep the Chinese party in check. Things are bad in India, in terms of the subversion of democratic ideals by a 1-family-1 party nexus with a pliant media & bureaucratic/police system. But they are clearly nowhere near the levels in China.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Karan M »

Singha wrote:Myanmar has steadily slipped out of the chinese orbit and the visit by Obama cements that fact. thats one prong of the chinese "strategy" soundly defeated.
look for things like textile quotas and tax breaks to come to Yangon soon, and some of the money pouring into bangladesh, vietnam and cambodia to be diverted there. they can also support the higher tech manufacturing in thailand and malaysia nearby. US marine MEU will be holding disaster relief and training drills shortly one expects.

in entire east asia, other than north korea ( :-o ), there is no chinese ally and china is ensuring they all turn to US for protection by browbeating them.

in south asia, the moth-eaten remnants of pakistan soldier on into the night, while a angry and aggressive India takes steps to bring some pain in the soft underbelly of Cheen.

Russia has retained her mil bases and "strongmen" in the CAR states.

for all the talk of Sun-Tzu strategy, to me it seems Cheen strategy in the last 15 yrs has been a spectacular failure in reducing the level of threat to Cheen from its periphery.
they are struggling to keep Pakistan "volunteers" from consuming Uighurs using iron fisted measures.
Sun-Tzutiyapanti strategy is what it is.
I have said this before. There are no bigger strategery idiots than those in China over the past few decades. The jury is still out on whether there giving Pakistan the nuclear bomb won't come back to bite them in their @ss
All it takes is a couple of robust administrations in India (bereft of the deracinated rubbish the dynasty believes in) and India may actually start working on the sort of take the fight to China scenarios this forum discusses from time to time.
Right now, thanks to Chinese breastbeating, even a NAC led UPA Govt has been forced to rearm the Indian armed forces, after the hiatus in UPA-1 which arrogantly derailed a lot of the modernization initiatives begun post 1999 after the NDA Govt.

Point is, the Chinese belligerence has been so stupid that:
1. India, has begun rearming and has firmly decided to proceed with its nuclear program to deter/counter China
2. SoKo has started focusing on defence. And no, they don't need 1K class missiles & F-15Ks for NoKo either.
3. Japan has begun its steps to enhance its defence outreach
4. US has begun reorienting itself for a Pacific Rim war with all the attendant logistics and basing
5. Chinese stupidity in outright cloning Russian tech (and that too in a yet to succeed fashion) has meant level 1 tech from Russia to China has been stopped, which India on the other hand is getting.

For all of the decisive, environment can go to pieces, we will eat grass but be the world's socks-walmart goods maker etc sort of success, the Chinese party is led by a bunch of buffoons who have managed to p!ss off every neighbour around them.

What is China going to do when all these countries steadily start working with each other to manage China? Throw another hissy fit by sending a ship that capsizes like they did to impress the Philippines? Seriously? Trying to bully the Philippines? This is China's real level as it stands today.

Insecure, arrogant & already acting like a playground bully - which is so bizarre given its own history. They got brutalized by the Japanese militarists in WW2 and so they want to be the same. To other nations which haven't done anything to them.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SNaik »

Kanson wrote:
err, Supersonic ?
Isn't Su-33/J-15 supersonic? What's wrong?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by prashanth »

SNaik sir,
Surely, you didn't mean (in your previous post) that the plane lands on the carrier at supersonic speed?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SNaik »

prashanth wrote:SNaik sir,
Surely, you didn't mean (in your previous post) that the plane lands on the carrier at supersonic speed?
Sure, I didn't mean that. What I did mean - landing (carrier landing even more so) of a supersonic jet is quite different from a propjet or VSTOL aircraft. Higher landing speed, different approach profile, different handling characteristics, different qualification of the pilot, etc.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

taiwan and Soko both seem to be developing a arsenal of land attack cruise missiles and ASMs with the quiet blessings (and perhaps ToT) from US. guidance systems, test strategies, data, high power propellent tech , mil grade GPS signals is surely being passed along.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsiung_Feng_III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsiung_Feng_IIE
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19861583
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/ ... 95/1/.html
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

http://my.news.yahoo.com/china-launch-s ... 05840.html
China to launch second African satellite
By Zhao Lei in Beijing/China Daily | Asia News Network – Sun, Nov 18, 2012

Beijing (China Daily/ANN) - China Great Wall Industry Corp will launch the Democratic Republic of the Congo's first satellite, which will also be developed by China, before the end of 2015, according to a contract signed yesterday.

The Chinese company is the country's only authorised provider of commercial satellite launch services for international clients.

The contract for CongoSat 1, a communications satellite to be developed and manufactured by the China Academy of Space Technology for the National Network of Satellite Telecommunications of the African country, was inked in Zhuhai, Guangdong province.

The signing was on the sidelines of the Ninth China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as the Zhuhai Airshow.

The contract shows the CongoSat 1 design will be based on the DFH 4 satellite platform, capable of covering the Democratic Republic of the Congo and all the central and southern parts of the African continent through the advanced transponders installed on the satellite.

China will build ground control and training facilities and will train satellite-control personnel for the client.

China Telecom, one of the country's biggest telecommunications companies, will also play an active role in the project by upgrading the operation system and providing management services to the network.

The deal marks the second time that China has exported a satellite to African nations, following the NigComSat 1,

another communications satellite that was launched for Nigeria in May 2007 by Great Wall.

"Today is a big day, a historic day, for us," Richard Achinda Wahilungula, director-general of the Congolese network, said after signing the contract.

"China has abundant experience in satellites and telecommunication. We came here because China can help us develop a satellite and telecommunication, and we never contacted anyone else for this project."

"Compared with Western nations, China's satellite technology may arguably not be the most advanced, but it definitely suits the demand of Africa. China has reduced African countries' satellite operation costs and trained a great number of professionals for us," said Bode Agusto, who was senior budget adviser to former Nigerian president Olusegun Obasanjo, according to an earlier report from Xinhua News Agency.

China Great Wall Industry Corp has completed three international contracts in 2012, including the launch of VesselSat 2 for European space systems contractor LuxSpace and VRSS 1, a remote-sensing satellite for Venezuela. By the end of this year it will conduct two more launches for international clients.

China has been providing launch services to international clients since 1990, when a communications satellite was sent into space on a Long March 3 booster.

As of now, Great Wall has launched 35 rockets carrying a total of 41 satellites for foreign clients. It has also provided seven piggyback launch services to foreign clients.

"With the support of the central government and the public, our aerospace industry has enjoyed rapid development during the past years," said Lei Fanpei, deputy general manager of the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp, parent company of the China Great Wall Industry Corp. Despite the grim global economy, he said, China's aerospace industry has maintained an annual growth rate of 12 per cent.

In addition to the African country, the Chinese Academy of Sciences and two Hong Kong-based satellite companies also signed service contracts with Great Wall.

According to China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp, China aims to take up 10 per cent of the international satellite market and 15 per cent in the world's commercial launch field by the end of 2015.

DFH 4 bus
http://www.cgwic.com/In-OrbitDelivery/C ... -4Bus.html

Image


http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Nicar ... a_999.html
Nicaragua negotiating satellite purchase with China
by Staff Writers
Managua (AFP) Sept 14, 2012



Nicaragua is in negotiations with China to purchase a $300 million satellite, which the Central American country hopes to launch into orbit by 2016, officials said.

The accord between the Nicaraguan Telecommunications Institute (Telcor) and the Chinese firm Great Wall, which has manufactured satellites for several Latin American, African and Asian countries, could be signed in October.

"In mid-October of this year, the two parties are going to conclude the negotiations on all aspects of this contract," said the Chinese firm's vice president, He Xing, at a press conference in Managua on Thursday.

Xing said the device would be a third-generation satellite capable of providing modern telephone, Internet and digital television services for Nicaragua and some residents in nearby countries.

The project, referred to as Nicasat-1, will cost approximately $300 million. The Nicaraguan government plans to seek financing from Chinese banks, which have offered favorable interest rates, Telcor said.

Nicaraguan officials have said the satellite will promote economic development in the country -- one of Latin America's poorest -- and help to improve communications in the event of a natural disaster.
Sri Lanka ordered one 1n 2012
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/supremesat-3.htm

Belarus Sat 1 will be launched in 2014
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/belarus-sat-1.htm

Laos
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/laosat-1.htm

Túpac Katari 1 (TKSat 1) - Bolivia will launched in 2013
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/tupak-katari-1.htm
Last edited by Don on 27 Nov 2012 05:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

Vietnam refuses to stamp new Chinese passports over map
Vietnamese officials are refusing to stamp new Chinese passports bearing a map that lays claim to disputed areas.

Border authorities have instead been issuing visas on separate pieces of paper and stamping those issued previously as invalid.

Vietnam, the Philippines and Taiwan have objected to the map because it shows disputed islands in the South China Sea to be a part of China.

India is also embroiled a row over the map's inclusion of disputed areas.

Official Chinese maps have long shown Taiwan and the South China Sea to be part of its own territory despite ongoing disputes with its neighbours.

China's Communist party newspaper, The People's Daily, said that Vietnam and other neighbours were trying to contain China with help from the United States.

Vietnam, the Philippines, and Taiwan have already complained to China about the map on the new passport, which they say is an infringement of their sovereignty.

The potentially oil-rich Paracel islands, claimed by Vietnam and also claimed by Taiwan, appear on the map, as do the Spratly islands, part of which are claimed by the Philippines.

India, which disputes two Himalayan regions also claimed by China that is included on the map, is stamping its own map on visas it issues to Chinese citizens.

Meanwhile, the Philippines is still currently accepting the new Chinese passports while it considers its options, says Foreign Ministry spokesman Raul Hernandez.

Last week, a meeting of the Association of South East Asian (Asean) nations in Cambodia saw China and the Philippines openly clash over disputed islands.

Asean has been trying to reach consensus over how to resolve the various territorial disputes with China.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

China passport shows some islands, excludes others
China's new passports show a map including its claim to almost all the South China Sea -- provoking protests by the Philippines Thursday and Vietnam -- but leaving out islands bitterly disputed with Japan.
Strange people!!!

Their view of the world changes based on their military strength I guess.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

An inevitable conclusion to Chinese aggressive methods.

Subscription :: Cautiously, Japan Raises Military Profile as China Rises
After years of watching its international influence eroded by a slow-motion economic decline, pacifist Japan is trying to raise its profile in a new way, offering military aid for the first time in decades and displaying its own armed forces in an effort to build regional alliances and shore up other countries’ defenses to counter a rising China.
And after stepping up civilian aid programs to train and equip the coast guards of other nations, Japanese defense officials and analysts say, Japan could soon reach another milestone: beginning sales in the region of military hardware like seaplanes, and perhaps eventually the stealthy diesel-powered submarines considered well suited to the shallow waters where China is making increasingly assertive territorial claims.
“During the cold war, all Japan had to do was follow the U.S.,” said Keiro Kitagami, a special adviser on security issues to Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda. “With China, it’s different. Japan has to take a stand on its own.”
“We want to build our own coalition of the willing in Asia to prevent China from just running over us,” said Yoshihide Soeya, director of the Institute of East Asian Studies at Keio University in Tokyo.

Or, as the vice minister of defense, Akihisa Nagashima, said in an interview, “We cannot just allow Japan to go into quiet decline.”
China, which itself suffered mightily in imperial Japan’s 20th-century territorial grabs, has reacted with warnings that Japan is trying to overturn the outcome of World War II by staging a military comeback. At a defense conference in Australia last month, Lt. Gen. Ren Haiquan of China warned his hosts against allying more closely with what he called a fascist nation that once bombed the Australian city of Darwin.
“Our strategy is to offer hardware and training to create mini-Japanese coast guards and mini-Japanese Self-Defense Forces around the South China Sea,” said Tetsuo Kotani, a former defense ministry official who is now a researcher at the Japan Institute for International Affairs in Tokyo.

Under the decade-old civilian aid program to build up regional coast guards, Japanese officials say they are in the final stages of what would be their biggest security-related aid package yet, to provide the Philippine Coast Guard with ten cutters worth about $12 million each. Ministry officials say they may offer similar ships to Vietnam.

Japan’s Ministry of Defense, meanwhile, said it planned to double its military aid program next year to help Indonesia and Vietnam. Vietnam could also be among the countries Japan would allow to buy its submarines, according to a former defense minister, Toshimi Kitazawa, who named Australia and Malaysia as other possible buyers.

“Japan has been insensitive to the security needs of its regional neighbors,” Mr. Kitazawa said in a recent interview. “We can offer much to increase their peace of mind.”
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

Corruption in Military Poses a Test for China
BEIJING — An insider critique of corruption in China’s military, circulating just as new leadership is about to take over the armed forces, warns that graft and wide-scale abuses pose as much of a threat to the nation’s security as the United States.

Col. Liu Mingfu, the author of the book, “Why the Liberation Army Can Win,” is not a lone voice.

Earlier this year, a powerful army official gave an emotional speech describing corruption as a “do-or-die struggle,” and days later, according to widely published accounts, a prominent general, Gu Junshan, a deputy director of the logistics department, was arrested on suspicion of corruption. He now awaits trial. The general is reported to have made huge profits on illicit land deals and given more than 400 houses intended for retired officers to friends.

Those excesses may be mere trifles compared with the depth of the overall corruption, the speech by Gen. Liu Yuan, an associate of the new party leader, Xi Jinping, suggested.

For Mr. Xi, who boasts a military pedigree from his father — a guerrilla leader who helped bring Mao Zedong to power in 1949 — China’s fast modernizing army will be a bulwark of his standing at home and influence abroad.

But the depth of graft and brazen profiteering in the People’s Liberation Army poses a delicate problem for the new leader, one that Colonel Liu and others have warned could undermine the status of the Communist Party.
Recent territorial disputes with Japan and Southeast Asian neighbors have raised nationalist sentiment in China, and the popular desire for a strong military could make it politically dangerous for Mr. Xi to embark on a campaign that unmasks squandering of public funds.

In his opening speech to the 18th Party Congress, Mr. Hu said China would aim to become “a maritime power.” It was one of the few references in the address about foreign affairs, and one that suggested the government would continue the double-digit increases in expenditures for the military.

But along with the modernization and bigger budgets has come more corruption, a problem that pervades China’s ruling party and its government.
In his book, Colonel Liu, a former professor at China’s National Defense University, wrote that the army had not been tested in decades and had grown complacent. “As a military that has not fought a war for 30 years, the People’s Liberation Army has reached a stage in which its biggest danger and No. 1 foe is corruption,” he wrote.

Colonel Liu first became prominent in 2010 with the publication of his book “The China Dream,” an ultranationalist tract arguing that China should build the world’s strongest military and move swiftly to supplant the United States as the global “champion.”

In his new work, the colonel drew a parallel with 1894, when China’s forces were swiftly defeated by a rapidly modernizing Japan, even though the Chinese were equipped with expensive ships from Europe. Historians often attribute the defeat to corruption.

Another retired army officer, and a member of the aristocratic class known as the princelings, said that corruption existed throughout the military but that the new commission would probably refrain from a sustained campaign against it.

“It won’t be a big campaign against corruption,” the retired officer said in an interview. “You can’t do it too much, otherwise the party comes out too black, and the leaders won’t like it.”

Indeed, the arrest of General Gu was probably just another example of sporadic efforts against big names in the army rather than a concerted campaign, argued James Mulvenon, an American analyst of the Chinese military, in a recent article for the China Leadership Monitor.

“Before Gu Junshan’s arrest, there had not been a high-profile P.L.A. corruption case in more than five years, which says more about the political constraints on corruption enforcement than the actual level of corruption in the P.L.A.,” Mr. Mulvenon wrote.

The new lineup of the military commission suggests that being too outspoken about corruption is detrimental to career advancement.
The Chinese military also faced outmoded methods of organization that hamper its ability to fight, said a Western diplomat who specializes in the study of the Chinese Army.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

anyone can play this map game. in a tit for tat gesture,
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... 63350.aspx

India, China in visa war with tit-for-tat maps
Jayanth Jacob & Sutirtho Patranobis , Hindustan Times
New Delhi / Beijing Beijing, November 23, 2012

Anyone travelling on new Chinese passports will now have an Indian visa stamped with a map showing Arunachal Pradesh and Aksai Chin as part of India. This comes as an apparent retaliation to Beijing’s new passports that show these areas as part of China in a map on the watermark, a security feature of embossing an image in passports and currency notes.


In a step that shows China's aggressive territorial claims, the new map shows disputed territories in the South China Sea, such as Paracel and Spratly islands, with Vietnam as well as the Philippines. Both countries have lodged strong protests with China.

While India has an unsettled land boundary with China, most southeast Asian countries have maritime disputes with China.

The 10-member Asean group is now discussing a code of conduct in South China Sea to rein in the Asian economic giant.

Official maps issued by China have historically included territories, both land and sea, in dispute with India and the other neighbours, but that this map is now included in the passport could require other nations to endorse those claims by stamping their official visa seals - at a symbolic level at least.

It is learnt that India hasn't diplomatically taken up the issue, noticed for the first time some three weeks ago. Instead, it calibrated an action of stamping its own official map on the visa issued on these Chinese passports. The matter was also not raised when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh met with his Chinese counterpart Wen Jiabao on the sidelines of East Asia and related summits in Cambodia early this week.

As reported by HT first, China and India were in a diplomatic row over public sector OVL's exploration of two oil blocks in Vietnam in the backwaters of Paracel Islands in South China Sea. Though India had withdrawn from block 127, it's staying on in 128 after a rethink.

China has long claimed territorial rights over the whole of Arunachal Pradesh that India considers as an integral part of its territory.

"The outline map of China on the passport is not directed against any particular country," foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said. Meanwhile, strategic economic dialogue between India and China

will take place early this week after which dates will be finalised for the national security adviser and special representative on boundary talks to visit Beijing.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 382419.cms

Jet designer dies after carrier glory
By Saibal Dasgupta, TNN | Nov 27, 2012, 06.54 AM IST

BEIJING: China's success in managing the precision landing of its J-15 fighter jet on the country's first aircraft carrier on Sunday was overshadowed by the sudden death of Luo Yang, the scientist who had designed the jet. The death was caused by cardiac arrest that took place immediately after the flight landing mission abroad the carrier, official sources said.

Luo, 51, was under severe mental pressure to achieve the landing feat, his colleagues have said.

"Luo worked all day and night and bore enormous psychological pressures during those days," the official news agency Xinhua based on an interview with Meng Jun, chairman of the State-owned AVIC Shenyang Liming Aepo-Engine (Group) Corporation Ltd said. Luo spent eight days on the carrier from November 18. Xinhua also reported that Luo felt uncomfortable at one point, but didn't ask the doctor for examination. He was busy analyzing testing data and watching the flying and landing processes.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

chinadaily.com.cn - seems like a good man and a dedicated engineer.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 960636.htm

Death of respected aircraft designer leaves military, and nation, in shock

In the eyes of his teachers and classmates at college, he studied hard and was always happy to lend a helping hand; his colleagues respected him because he had devoted all his life to his work; and for Chinese military fans, he was the man who enabled the country's first carrier-based fighter jet to fly high.

However, the respected Luo Yang, a senior aircraft designer, can no longer hear these words of praise.

Luo, general manager of the Shenyang Aircraft Corp, which develops and manufactures the J-15 fighter jet, died of a heart attack on Sunday morning in Dalian, Liaoning province, soon after the carrier-based aircraft successfully completed landing and take-off tests on the country's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning. He was 51.

China Central Television broadcast footage of Luo's final hours on its prime time news program on Monday, showing he was smiling when leaving the Liaoning.

CCTV quoted company sources as saying Luo had felt unwell on the carrier but carried on with his work.

"After Luo left the Liaoning, Xie Genhua, our corporation's Party chief, went to receive him and found he did not look well. Luo then returned to the hotel and in his suite, had a sudden heart seizure," Wang Enfu, chairman of the labor union at Shenyang Aircraft Corp, told China Daily on Monday.

"A driver and a local guide rushed him to the hospital, but he could not hold on, even though the car was only a few hundred meters away from the hospital."

"The tragedy happened all of a sudden, we could never have anticipated it," said Liu Yongtao, deputy general manager of the company. "Last night, after his body was sent back to Shenyang, we arranged for the hearse to tour the factories in our company and the Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute where he worked for nearly two decades.

"Thousands of our researchers, technicians and workers crowded alongside the roads to salute Luo and bid farewell to him."

Luo made his final call to his wife on Saturday, telling her he was pleased that all test missions had been completed, according to Liu.

He said the company is now preparing for a mourning ceremony to be held on Thursday in Shenyang, capital of Liaoning province.

An LED screen on the top of the main office building in the company's compound displays a dedication to Luo. "Your name will be enshrined for your dedication to China's aviation industry, and your virtue and contribution will last forever in the eulogy from the blue sky," the screen reads.

The main page of Shenyang Aircraft Corp's website has been changed to black and white.

The company also opened a mourning hall on Monday afternoon in the SAC Hotel.

Luo studied high-altitude equipment at Beihang University and graduated with a bachelor's degree in 1982. After graduation, he joined the Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute and was gradually promoted to deputy director of the institute.

In 2002, Luo was appointed vice-chairman of the Shenyang Aircraft Corp and later became general manager and chairman.

Both the design institute and corporation belong to Aviation Industry Corp of China, the country's top aircraft manufacturer.

"He was very diligent and hard-working when he studied here," Wang Xueren, a retired teacher at Beihang University who tutored Luo's class.

Wang said although Luo usually kept a low-profile, he was an enthusiastic participant in class activities and often came up with good ideas.

Chen Shuhuo, a former classmate of Luo, remembers him fondly.

"Luo was an easy-going boy and the organizer of sports events in our class. All the classmates knew he was always ready to help and had a strong sense of responsibility," Chen said.

"He was a good student and a dedicated man," Wang Xueren said. "Most of his classmates have left the aviation industry, but he persisted."

"He turned down two opportunities to be promoted because he didn't want to leave the research-and-development field," Chen added.

"We feel extremely proud of you," reads a condolence letter sent by Wang Xueren and two other teachers.

"Every one who has contributed to, and toiled for, the nation's aircraft carrier development deserves our respect. And now more and more young people with dreams and determination are joining this glorious team. I hope this will make you feel gratified," Yang Yu, a well-known news commentator, wrote on his micro blog.

His words were echoed by netizens, who posted images of candles on their micro blogs to demonstrate their condolences and respect.

"He was too tired. Now he can finally have a rest," Wang Enfu said.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Karan M »

More Sun-tzutiyapanti in the thread above just as predicted. After all the "discussion" on the copy paste antics by the usual gang of Chini gents, what does #1 Chini cltrl+c poster do? Copy pastes yet another non military news (China launches African satellite) to show China stlong.

No insights on the context of the article, no limited quotes/high lighting, no ability to defend a POV, nothing of the sort.

Cltrl+C zindabad. Just like China itself.

J-15 on carrier? Remade Su-33. Press release, designed and developed in China.
J-15 support staff? All dressed in virtual copy cat uniforms "inspired" by the USN all the way down to similar jackets and helmets. No original thinking whatsoever ..

Copy-Paste! China rise! China strong! Sigh..it says a lot when the actual thinking on what China's strengths and weaknesses are, comes from the Mil Scenarios thread by an Indian poster. The China strong crowd can't do anything at that level. Only big blocks of text, with the standard pic thrown in per State Directive 000-1000-111 or whatever
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 382419.cms

Jet designer dies after carrier glory
By Saibal Dasgupta, TNN | Nov 27, 2012, 06.54 AM IST

BEIJING: China's success in managing the precision landing of its J-15 fighter jet on the country's first aircraft carrier on Sunday was overshadowed by the sudden death of Luo Yang, the scientist who had designed the jet.
A good man may have died, but may I post a photo of the J-15 that was "designed" by this man?

It looks like an Su-33 to me
Image

Once you copy the shape and import the engines the aerodynamics are all sorted out. "Design" after that is merely using local materials to mimic shapes and hopefully strength and weights. But this man is credited for designing the entire aircraft. If an aircraft looking like the one in the pic above had been described as "designed by DRDO or ADA", what would the Chinese say about it? what would Pakis say? And what would Indians say?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Karan M »

- posted above
Last edited by Karan M on 27 Nov 2012 09:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Karan M »

shiv wrote: A good man may have died, but may I post a photo of the J-15 that was "designed" by this man?

It looks like an Su-33 to me
Image
And AQ Khan developed nuclear technology after Pakistan ate grass. But nothing to be surprised about, really.

Admission of Russian help for FC-1 leading to the program being salvaged? Zero.
Admission that the J-11s are now nothing but ripoffs of Sukhoi's genius? Zero.
Admission that elements of the J-20 and huge design elements of the J-31 are virtual ripoffs of other fighters? Zero.

The mainland Chinese MIC folks and their online supporters seem to think that being brazen & dishonest is all ok.
Fundamentally, this is why these "experts" try to downplay anything Indian, given the amount of transparency in India about anything & everything "imported".

Their so called ZTZ-xx tanks? All based off the classical Soviet template of the T-72. Unlike India with the Arjun and its involvement with KMW, no admission of China talking of the ZTZ origins openly and any discussion regarding the flaws in the T-xx system.
The PL-series AAMs? One is a direct 1-1 copy of a Russian AAM. Another a TOT derivative of the Israeli Python-3. Another uses a Russian seeker apparently (but just see whether any Chinese fan will admit to anything of the sort)

I still remember some Chinese chap coming here a few months bragging about how India was taking Russian help for the Kaveri as versus China stlong.

Later I researched and discovered, that the Russians actually SOLD an entire IL-76 engine testbed to the Chinese for their engine programs. And the WS-10 still has lousy reliability.

These guys have literally copied, purchased everything from Russia - but cannot acknowledge any of it. Where does this massive insecurity stem from?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by kmkraoind »

China refutes its new jet fighter J-15 is a Russian Su-33 copy
"It is not surprising that some western media quickly responded to the inspiring news with criticism and taunts, since the J-15, with an unfinished coating during the exercise had a similar aerodynamic shape with the Russian Su-33 jet", state-run Xinhua news agency said in a commentary today.

"There is always criticism of China for the crime of "plagiarism" when the country makes progress in military hardware development, questioning China's respect to others' intellectual property rights and belittling the hardware's technological and tactical qualities", it said.

"It is true that China used to rely heavily on imported Russian military aircraft, warships and other hardware to modernise its troops due to a lack of independent innovation abilities, it said. But people should not use that as an excuse for criticising Chinese people who have made tough endeavours and even sacrifices in developing the J-15's engine, fire-control system, electronics system and other key components", it said.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Even for my untrained eye, J-15 looks similar to Su-33, yet Chinese claims its not, what a joke.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Surya »

obviously the criticism is starting to get through :)

you can only make that many lookalikes and keep saying its all local
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

kmkraoind wrote:
Even for my untrained eye, J-15 looks similar to Su-33, yet Chinese claims its not, what a joke.
Ultimately the behavior of the plane will depend on the shape. That shape pretty much decides its flying characteristics.

Those of you who read AM Rajkumar's article on testing the Jaguar with even minor external modifications will know that once you fiddle with the shape of an aircraft you are fiddling fundamentally with the way it flies and behaves. That is why wind tunnel models can be used fo early testing. So once the external shape is decided and tested completely you can build a plane out of plywood, thermocole, aluminium, steel, carbon fiber anything you can fill the insides of a plane with shit if you like provided you leave space for pilot, engines, controls, fuel and balance the plane with the shit as necessary. Of course if the plane can't stand the stresses it will crash. If you make it over strong, it will fly, but will be heavy. You can use aluminium in place of composites. You can use steel instead of titanium. The weights will change as will the range, payload etc. But it will fly because the basic design made in Russia is already flyable.The Chinese have never ever released the specifications of any aircraft. It is different when they want to keep something secret, but an out and out copy like the Su 33 has certainly removed all the burden of early testing and flying characteristics.

Someone please show me a video of J-15 doing in Zhuhai what the Su-27/30/33 series is capable of doing in airshows.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by disha »

kmkraoind wrote:
"It is true that China used to rely heavily on imported Russian military aircraft, warships and other hardware to modernise its troops due to a lack of independent innovation abilities, it said. But people should not use that as an excuse for criticising Chinese people who have made tough endeavours and even sacrifices in developing the J-15's engine, fire-control system, electronics system and other key components", it said.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Even for my untrained eye, J-15 looks similar to Su-33, yet Chinese claims its not, what a joke.
I for once thought that the Russians must have given them their unfinished Su-33 or designs or some such collaboration. Chinese claiming that J-15 is home-grown is bit too much.

Anyway, this caught my eye (it is a red flag when the Chief engineer has to die during an exercise)
The J-15's successful landing on 'The Liaoning' aircraft carrier last week, ended on a sad note as the Chief engineer of the fighter jet project Luo Yang died during exercise.
PS: Fixed quotes
PPS: Already discussed news regarding Chief Engineer.
Last edited by disha on 27 Nov 2012 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by disha »

Karan M wrote:These guys have literally copied, purchased everything from Russia - but cannot acknowledge any of it. Where does this massive insecurity stem from?
Incompetence.

^ sorry for the one-liner. I cannot bring myself to admire their fat-box or any other copies.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by hnair »

so dude died after the plane landed? Must have been one big surprise for him.

Anyway, what is cool about his career as an engineer? Sounds like a fricking loser who could not get a job anywhere else and wasted time in government labs for "automatic promotions", doing copy-paste and figuring out deep-TOT" from Russians. You know.... similar to those time-wasters in DRDO/ISRO/<insert a org> that we hear a lot of BRF-ites rant about in a lot on lots of threads.

I must not underestimate his sheer awesomeness, but I somehow do, thanks to the chinese official media's goofiness.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by disha »

shiv wrote:If an aircraft looking like the one in the pic above had been described as "designed by DRDO or ADA", what would the Chinese say about it? what would Pakis say? And what would Indians say?
For Indians, it is simple - Rona-Dhona.

:rotfl:
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by kit »

Luo yang is the guy who was apparently a genius in modifying and improving on foreign aircraft designs.even for making a copy work demands good skills.this dude was singly credited by the western powers as behind the proliferation of new airframe designs in china.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Indranil »

hnair wrote:so dude died after the plane landed? Must have been one big surprise for him.

Anyway, what is cool about his career as an engineer? Sounds like a fricking loser who could not get a job anywhere else and wasted time in government labs for "automatic promotions", doing copy-paste and figuring out deep-TOT" from Russians. You know.... similar to those time-wasters in DRDO/ISRO/<insert a org> that we hear a lot of BRF-ites rant about in a lot on lots of threads.

I must not underestimate his sheer awesomeness, but I somehow do, thanks to the chinese official media's goofiness.
I challenge you to copy-paste a single fighter part. The Chinese media is goofy, but your post is no better.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by hnair »

indranilroy wrote: I challenge you to copy-paste a single fighter part. The Chinese media is goofy, but your post is no better.
I vaguely remember you for only one thing - asking for detailed answers of a confidential nature from a serving Indian test pilot. You don't really check out. Moving on.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Eric Leiderman »

Copying is an art form , Also to follow this path means, u are willing to take risks , and failures do not get into the limelight , it works with each copy being tweeked to make it that little bit better, Japans auto industry started off with this model of development and they are world leaders now. ditto for the Korean auto industry.

OT rant follows:-
On a personal note I think we are being too cautious with our LCA yes it is our first forey into unknown relm of certification. I am not a test pilot and have no source of info other than what is available on the web.

However looking at the dwindling squadron strength , our aderversies are getting ahead in capibilities in leaps and bounds. I can see the IAF's perspective, We need to weigh the pros and cons and possibly (as the saying goes) either have a shit or get off the pot. As the good doc will testify sitting on the pot for too long has disadvantages.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^^ Indranil what's the kasht you have with this post? as I see this is the exact tone these bullies understand.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

Even our nuclear devices and missiles are more or less modeled after Soviet design.. that does not stop us from celebrating our defense scientists. Lets not play rude with departed. It does not serve anyone
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Indranil »

hnair wrote:
indranilroy wrote: I challenge you to copy-paste a single fighter part. The Chinese media is goofy, but your post is no better.
I vaguely remember you for only one thing - asking for detailed answers of a confidential nature from a serving Indian test pilot. You don't really check out. Moving on.
I was having a technical discussion with him. He divulged as much as I should have known. I don't know what is wrong in that.
Manish_Sharma wrote:^^ Indranil what's the kasht you have with this post? as I see this is the exact tone these bullies understand.
Discuss/criticize the products/technology. Why take potshots at the departed. I am pretty sure that the man in question was much much more knowledgeable than most, if not all posters in this thread. To call him "a fricking loser who could not get a job anywhere else and wasted time in government labs" and going on to generalize it to "similar to those time-wasters in DRDO/ISRO/<insert a org>" is a little too much under the belt.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Indranil »

The J-15 airframe is a Su-33 ripoff. Whoever questions that, needs an eye examination.

Would like to know more about it's air to surface munitions.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by hnair »

^^^ You are again doing the same rubbish. He divulged diddly and squat. Do not create trouble for him by using weird words, because I called you out here. Nonsense!
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by hnair »

Manish_Sharma-saar, the other thread that doc-saar has started, it is a good start, but as you realize we do underestimate our own problem. If the drones indulge in photo-shopping, our side indulges in photobombing at its worst in this thread. I mean I dont like blue-on-blue, but patronizing comments is :(

Pointing a finger at the chinese media and some of my chronically depressed fellow Indians became a jibe at the departed. This guy became known only after his unfortunate death. So now it is convenient to claim he was the "designer of the plane", since he cant answer any questions from, say, the Russians? And any questions on this cynical game is a disrespect to departed. And yes, there are only certain methods that make CPC-heads change their outlook, sarcasm being one. They are notoriously thin-skinned on that front
Prithwiraj wrote:Even our nuclear devices and missiles are more or less modeled after Soviet design.. that does not stop us from celebrating our defense scientists. Lets not play rude with departed. It does not serve anyone
Since its inception, USSR/Russia has been fiercely adhering to the Non-Proliferation Act. In fact more than any other nuclear weapon state. Any flippant allegations about "resemblance of Indian nuclear devices with russian designs" is ignorance at best and frankly, needs a degree of technical insight that is not available in any fora. Particularly in the matter of the physics packages. Same is the case for the strategic rocket programs of India. There is not even much overt resemblances in propulsion, guidance systems or RVs. And that is how it shall remain.

The only strategic area in which there is an open acknowledgement by both sides is the ATV program. So kindly do not wave around such crap lightly
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Indranil »

Are there any pics of the J-15 with weapons?
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