China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2013 19:38

And yet India is the largest importer of arms and has allocated billions for the immediate future.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 12 May 2013 20:23

From The Economic Times: Ladakh incursion: China scores bloodless victory over India, more intrusions may come

By Brahma Chellaney

In a classic replay of its old game, China intruded stealthily into a strategic border area in Ladakh and then disingenuously played conciliator by counselling "patience", "wisdom" and "negotiations". The incursion bore all the hallmarks of Chinese brinkmanship, including taking an adversary by surprise, seizing an opportunistic timing, masking offence as defence, and discounting risks of wider escalation. Occurring at a time when India has never been so politically weak, the intrusion was shrewdly timed to exploit its political paralysis and leadership drift.

What China did was to impudently violate border-peace agreements with India by employing coercive power on the ground. Then — armed with the leverage from its encroachment into the Debsang plateau — it embarked on coercive diplomacy by setting out military demands for India to meet.

In doing so, it presented India with a Hobson's choice: either endure the Chinese ingress into a region controlling key access routes or meet China's demands at the cost of irremediably weakening Indian military interest in a wider strategic belt extending up to the Karakoram Pass and the Siachen Glacier. After a three-week standoff, China withdrew from the occupied spot but only after India blinked by ceding some ground — an action it has tried to rationalise as granting China a "necessary face saver".

The plain fact is that India made a concession to end the stand-off, while China — in a triumph for its coercive diplomacy — conceded nothing. In fact, placing the aggressor and the victim on the same pedestal, India announced both sides would pull back troops to end the stand-off.
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subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 12 May 2013 22:06

That is exactly what i told earlier - we, MMS, blinked first and on top of that we had to send out messager to the darber of PRC to give bhet. Once Yaser Arafat told, with a mischevious smile on his face, India is a peace super power. We will stoop to any level for peace.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 12 May 2013 22:08

NRao wrote:And yet India is the largest importer of arms and has allocated billions for the immediate future.

That is just to loot public money via kick-backs just like MNREGA, Food Bill, etc etc.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2013 01:00

I have read the following from at least three articles (this one from here):

China has repeatedly asked the Indian Army to stop infrastructure build-up and construction of bunkers in Fukche and Chumar areas of Ladakh.

The question that arises is are these areas (Fukche and Chumar) disputed? And did IA build something in a disputed area/s?

The script for the three+ weeks seems to imply that.

BTW, it is nice to see Chellaney reading BR !!! : )

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2013 01:04

India for changes in border accord

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 May 2013 04:02

Katare,this is exactly the problem,and was so in '62 too! Abysmal political leadership,a failure to attend to mil-strategic issues,diplomacy of appeasement of the Neville Chamberlain type (we now have the continually retreating "Man Mohan" Line of surrender to replace the "Mac Mahon" line,) is the root cause of the continuing debacle.It is not the IA which is the key offender.The Economist,which is MMS's Bible has put it plainly:

Occurring at a time when India has never been so politically weak, the intrusion was shrewdly timed to exploit its political paralysis and leadership drift.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 May 2013 04:28

What will Congress gain by going tough on the Chinese? Will it lead to more money -- NO.

Congress is far far better off by giving up some land to Chinese while continuing to siphon billions through corruption (Coal, Mobile, Tatra, ...the list is bottomless)

It is a predictable outcome right from word go...No brainer

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2013 04:42

nik wrote:What will Congress gain by going tough on the Chinese? Will it lead to more money -- NO.

Congress is far far better off by giving up some land to Chinese while continuing to siphon billions through corruption (Coal, Mobile, Tatra, ...the list is bottomless)

It is a predictable outcome right from word go...No brainer

Did they give up land? And if so where?

All I can find is the IA removed a tin shed that hosted some equipment. The Chinese asked for and got what the Chinese wanted - dismantle some fixtures that the IA had built in one area.

Corruption is a problem in india - heard recently that the underground economy is twice as large as the one above. So, the people are a part of the problem.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 13 May 2013 06:33

Problem in 1962 was unable to conclude the border settlement, Nehru had a good vision but don't know why he didn't materialize it in a concrete agreement (he had a very good chance in 1954). If that had happened, 1962 debacle and years of animosity could have been saved.

we have opportunity now to solve this issue once and for all, but it requires political spine, which i don't think any political leader has.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 May 2013 07:06

If we could block PRC expansionism at Sum Chu the last time round,why did we not follow the same strategy ? The most that the current regime can hope for is some breathing space,very little,in order to put into place remedial measures to improve the infrastructure on the border with China.Easier said than done,there are innumerable posts and articles on the difficulties of achieving this and the existing advantages that the Chinese have-which they built while we slept.

However,worse than the defence infrastructure is the manner in which the mandarins of South Block's diplomacy have shown the "white flag" without a shot being fired! We have several key cards in our strategy chest that our diplomats can use.They all begin with the letter "T".Tibet,Taiwan,Treaties and Trade.The use of these four cards deftly can put enough pressure upon China to stall its creeping invasion of India.India after all is the second most populous nation on the planet after China,with a market of a billion+.It is also the world's largest democracy and leader in IT.It also possesses a professional and very competent military force that is growing in capability and size and moire importantly for global security,has been used in several trouble spots as peacekeepers by the UN.

An India that challenges Chinese suzerainity over Tibet,opens up official talks with Taiwan,with a threat of full recognition to it,and anti-China trade sanctions,like a ban on all cheap goods entering India from China,etc.,would severely harm it.In addition,treaties with nations also threatened by China,of "peace and friendship" (read defence treaties,missile sales),with the prospect of India building nuclear plants in those nations like Vietnam,etc.,will give the Chinese goosebumps.Thus a combined military,economic and diplomatic strategy needs to be worked out to counter the threat of encirclement from China.In fact,this is exactly what china is doing to us!

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 13 May 2013 08:04

Challenging China over tibet and taiwan will not help India, need to form alliance with US-Japan-Australia, symbolically Japanese Army Chief is visiting India's Eastern Command. It is a very good warning to China.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 13 May 2013 09:36

you are expecting too much from congi...they just cancelled the live exercise with US and japan

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 59257.aspx

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 13 May 2013 13:37

krishnan wrote:you are expecting too much from congi...they just cancelled the live exercise with US and japan

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 59257.aspx

From that article

This year's Malabar exercise, if held at all, will be a bare bones Indo-US affair in the Arabian Sea later in November. Officials say even this may not happen as both governments keep pushing the date back.

"The dates of Malabar are still to be finalised and depends on the commitments of the Fifth Fleet's engagement in the Gulf," said an Indian Navy official.

The Indian withdrawal from the trilateral exercise occurred before the Chinese border intrusion in eastern Ladakh.

So, what is the right? I'm confused... which happened first?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 13 May 2013 14:03

Either DDM at work , or govt bluffing....

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 13 May 2013 22:13

Great detailed article with historical maps by RN Ravi, former Special Dir of IB. (he worked closely with the Army during his IB days)

Chinese intrusion : Govt is MISLEADING people

Added later: Interesting that particularly aggressive Chinese intrusions started in 2006 when the UPA-I was beginning to show its ineptitude in national security with TSP sponsored bomb blasts occurring at 6 month intervals. And since then these intrusions have been on an upswing.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 14 May 2013 01:48

China Study Group must be abolished.... Filled with easily scared guys....

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 May 2013 02:49

"PLA has carefully chosen its spot. Along the entire 4,057 kilometres of LAC, India is most isolated at DBO, being entirely reliant on airlift. In contrast, PLA can bring an entire motorised division to the area within a day, driving along a first-rate highway," says Major General Sheru Thapliyal, also a former 3 Division commander. Beijing has made it clear that it has demands that must be met before it withdraws.

Of apparently greater concern to Beijing is the growing Indian capability in Ladakh. India has moved at least two additional infantry brigades into southeastern Ladakh and an armoured brigade will become operational by 2017. ALGs have been activated in Nyoma, Fukche and DBO.

China's discomfort with all this was conveyed last month when Beijing handed New Delhi a draft proposal to freeze troop levels and defences on LAC, institutionalising India's disadvantage.

While such an agreement would cap the Indian build-up, the intrusion at DBO seemed to be a trial balloon for dealing with troublesome Indian positions that already exist. And if this worked, this method can be invoked in other sectors as well.

India has more troops on the border but, without a road network, the rugged Himalayas reduce those impressive divisions to isolated groups of soldiers sitting on widely separated hilltops.

P Stodan, a former Indian ambassador who is from Ladakh, points out, "Around Ladakh, the Chinese can move troops at 400 kilometres a day. We can do leisurely 150-200 kilometres if we are lucky."

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 14 May 2013 06:22

aditya.agd wrote:China Study Group must be abolished.... Filled with easily scared guys....

Or it could be re-named:

CSG: China Surrender Group
CSG: China Suppine Group
CSG: China Spineless Group
CSG: China Stupid Group
CSG: China Scared Group

In fact, each of the eminent members of the CSG could be given their preferred nickname: Surrender, Supppine, Spineless, Stupid and Scared.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2013 07:00

you forgot the most obvious one "China Shiver group"

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 May 2013 13:32

Well about the ( CSG/ Govt of India and its assorted Ministers/IAS/IFS ) I can think of a saying from Duke of Wellington.." I do not know how they will impress the enemy, but by God, they frighten me" !!

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 May 2013 13:35

Challenging China without building up the requisite capability, infrastructure etc etc..will be our greatest folly !! we look doomed to repeat the mistakes of 1962.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 14 May 2013 16:45

Indian sovereignty can't be protected now with a weak military....

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 14 May 2013 16:54

manjgu wrote:Challenging China without building up the requisite capability, infrastructure etc etc..will be our greatest folly !! we look doomed to repeat the mistakes of 1962.

The cowards in Indian establishment will never allow the build up of capability and infrastructure as they use that as an excuse not to take on China and chicken out of border situations which call for confrontation.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 May 2013 19:39

Field Marshal Robert: " the art of war teaches us not to rely on the likelihood of the enemy not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on chance of not attacking but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable"..

somebody to read this to MMS and Co..

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 May 2013 01:43

SiddharthS wrote:
Katare wrote:...To achieve your primary objective you pollute every thread with you highly partisan and OT political attacks on GoI and evil west. But what's really disturbing is your effort to disguise your political rhetoric as relevant facts to each and every issue at hand.
If anyone points to the root cause and that is indeed political (and more specific to a political party), why are you making a personal attack on the person. It amounts to shooting the messenger. Can you please provide any better reasoning for the current turmoils we as a nation are facing from everywhere? If not, I doubt your intentions.

Don't want to derail this thread, but could not stop myself seeing such kind of comment.

Siddharth,

BRF is military oriented forum where political discussion is discouraged and members are expected to keep the political discussion to bare minimum if needed. I have no problem with you or anyone finding the political root cause that suits your/their needs what I was trying to point out is that cursing GoI and PM for everything and every time solves nothing.

As for personal attacks, you must have a very different definition of the term than I do. I respect Philip and his opinions and believe we can have honest and frank conversation without calling names. My replies were about content and political orientation of posts not about the writer.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 May 2013 02:16

Philip wrote:Katare,this is exactly the problem,and was so in '62 too! Abysmal political leadership,a failure to attend to mil-strategic issues,diplomacy of appeasement of the Neville Chamberlain type (we now have the continually retreating "Man Mohan" Line of surrender to replace the "Mac Mahon" line,) is the root cause of the continuing debacle.It is not the IA which is the key offender.The Economist,which is MMS's Bible has put it plainly:

Occurring at a time when India has never been so politically weak, the intrusion was shrewdly timed to exploit its political paralysis and leadership drift.

I don't think so, you can go and find stories to support both the sides. Media is filled with very pro govt and very anti govt stories but you only pick one side of the coin. In my assessment this govt has done very decent job over last 10 years on most aspects when compared to any other Indian regime in the past. Defense budget has quadrupled (10 years), 30K net increase in the IA numbers, after decades, on north-east border, in last 4 years 10K KM of border roads have been built and WW2 ALG's opened and first strike corp for China border approved under MMS/UPA.

Economy has never done better in any other 10 years than what UPA 1 and 2 has delivered. Don't buy into fake ghotala and absurd bribe numbers thrown out by media. These things have always existed in our systems and all the govt that I can remembers were called “most corrupt” govt ever.
I particularly like the response of GoI (neta, babau and Brass) on the recent boundry issue. Media, analysts and Jingos behaved like scared little boys and girls while govt (GoI/Army) behaved in a confident and matured manner.

They immediately publicized it, DM clarified the incursion is 19KM (not 10KM as mentioned by media) inside from what India claims is its border with China. Actually Chinese never crossed into India, unlike what happened in the Kargil where demarcated LAC was crossed. China was seen as aggressor in both domestic and international media which is a major diplomatic win for us.

Armed forces immediately set-up their own tents right in front of Chinese tents

GoI didn't over react, or showed any fear by starting build up at border or increasing troop alert level. Indian leadership saw through it right away that it's just a pinprick and it was treated like one.

MMS announced that it's local matter that would be solved at local level by local commanders who would have very limited jurisdictions. This move insured that no other outstanding issues can be dragged by Chinese as bargain point.

Refused to cancel either of the political trips openly but kept the pressure by not notifying it.
Best option for us at this point was to not get in to a fight with a much larger and more powerful adversary by being cocky while makind sure it understood that there will be a fight if things don't get solved in timely manners.

Chinese left, we may have agreed to take down a few structures for now. It was a more than satisfactory conclusion for India, given the ground realities

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 May 2013 02:32

inside from what India claims is its border with China

That is the key. People forget, rather easily, that there is no marked border there, that there is a buffer zone of a few kms, and both claim this buffer zone. Or what I would like to call a no-mans-land of sorts. Both sides patrol this region - mostly they take turns to do so - so that they do not clash. Both sides have been doing that for some 40 years or so.

Here is a map that explains some:

Besides that one needs to look at the bigger picture too. Check out what Shyam Saran, DM and the Chief said in the past few days (with the week).

China, - actually no one - can afford to pick a fight in the next 5-10 years.

One +ve: Indian response was within 6 hours!!!

With bad roads, talk of China having better infra, etc, etc, etc.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 15 May 2013 02:43

Katare wrote:Actually Chinese never crossed into India, unlike what happened in the Kargil where demarcated LAC was crossed.

What sort of topsy-turvy logic is this? On this topsy-turvy logic, the PLA could have set up its tents on the gardens of 7 Race Course Road, and they would have still not "crossed into India" because there is no demarcated border.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 May 2013 03:21

People are living in La La land.
Bharat is bigger than just land boundaries. It is entire area even upto people who are connected to Indians beyond our boundaries.

We need to reach a point where no other country can claim our land boundaries or even our own citizens!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 May 2013 18:19

India calls for an early solution to border dispute

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 May 2013 18:27

La La land is right next to conspiracy theory land. Some live here and others choose to live their.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 May 2013 18:29

eklavya wrote:
Katare wrote:Actually Chinese never crossed into India, unlike what happened in the Kargil where demarcated LAC was crossed.
What sort of topsy-turvy logic is this? On this topsy-turvy logic, the PLA could have set up its tents on the gardens of 7 Race Course Road, and they would have still not "crossed into India" because there is no demarcated border.

Either it is topsy-turvy or it appears topsy-turvy to you because you don't understand it.

member_24670 · Post by **member_24670** » 15 May 2013 21:57

Lijian

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 May 2013 23:00

^

Well, we all expected the Chinese to get their hands on the downed US drone in Iran, but this is the best they could do to reverse it?

Normally I am pretty reserved about blatantly making fun of Chinese advances but this is too much!

-Vivek

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 16 May 2013 01:39

vivek_ahuja wrote:^
Well, we all expected the Chinese to get their hands on the downed US drone in Iran, but this is the best they could do to reverse it?
Normally I am pretty reserved about blatantly making fun of Chinese advances but this is too much!
-Vivek

I didnt get it ...

Whats so funny?

--Ashish

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 16 May 2013 03:42

It's looks a lot more like BAE Taranis, except that oversized engine.

They are making big leaps.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 May 2013 05:27

Misraji wrote:I didnt get it ...
Whats so funny?

--Ashish

Let's just say that trying to get that over-sized engine inside that fuselage defeats quite a few aerodynamic purposes of the design.

Clearest case yet of how far behind Chinese propulsion tech is and how much it needs to go.

They are so busy trying to make things LOOK more advanced and more potent than it actually is, that its become funny to me now.

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 May 2013 05:32

Sid wrote:It's looks a lot more like BAE Taranis, except that oversized engine.

They are making big leaps.

You are assuming that just because this thing looks like the BAE design and can fly makes it a big leap. This is not necessarily so (well, perhaps it is from PR standpoint, but that's another argument). I understand that they are trying to learn by copying and that this represents the first steps. So down the line this experience might pay off for them (everybody has to start somewhere, right?). And so maybe later they will get more advanced designs out that actually are impressive.

But their lack of innovation is on full display with this model and is quite frankly, laughable. Not one original thought on display. I am not even sure they fully grasp the technological evolutionary path that has led to this design.

But, pliss to note, saar: personal opinion onlee.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 May 2013 06:06

I think their idea is to copy designs, make them fly and then gather data on what makes it work and what are weak points.
That way both the PR and skill building angle is covered. War fighting might take another 15 yrs but it will come. If they can make the ws10 nothing prevents from using similar tech for smaller engine once the ws10 is sorted out for foc service.

To add the obligatory self flagellation, we are still trying to test the rustom which is a heron class uav. No schedule declared for ioc or sensor pkgs. it seems to be in science project mode.