LCA News and Discussions

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 09:52

Guys, a dumb pooch. Where is LSP6 in all this?

Sorry if answer was posted earlier.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 01 Feb 2012 10:10

suryag wrote:Ahhh Arun ji you beat me to it, no AK phyrr until LSP7/NP1 flies for me despite Katrina

... just dumb luck that is all.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 01 Feb 2012 10:10

LSP6 will be used for high AOA/ High G testing. So a spin recovery chute had to be fitted. It is not related to rest of Mk1 program.

So LSP 7,8 and subsequently the SP's do not have to wait for LSP6.

IIRC, there were also talk of integrating Kaveri on it after the high AOA/G testing is complete.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 10:11

^^^ there has been no talk at all about lsp6 for a long time except for the oft-repeated titbit which says it will be used for high AoA testing and will be equipped with a chute. No one says a word about when they plan to fly it for whatever reason. IMO HAL should have the airframe with the skin ready by this time

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 10:12

Gurneesh ji IIRC Kaveri was supposed to e integrated on one of the PVs and not on the LSPs

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 11:14

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1772 Test Flights successfully. (30-Jan-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-61)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1771 Test Flights successfully. (27-Jan-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-329,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-61)

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 01 Feb 2012 11:53

Tejas Test flights are becoming more and more like test match , ever few days i visit and see only 1 or 2 runs (flights) scored

, Last year was pathetic for test flights and this year has also not started in a positive note

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 19:35

suryag wrote:^^^ there has been no talk at all about lsp6 for a long time except for the oft-repeated titbit which says it will be used for high AoA testing and will be equipped with a chute. No one says a word about when they plan to fly it for whatever reason. IMO HAL should have the airframe with the skin ready by this time

You mean we have built it, parked it and keep dusting it once in a way.

I thought, I had read somewhere that the AoA had been expanded?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Feb 2012 20:14

now that we have selected Raffa - time to start some serious production of the light fighter. Start with good order of the LCA both 1 and 2 marks. No reason to use heavy and md level ones for the missions light can do. What is the current order book - 40 for mark1 and Mark2 - Any idea of any commitment ?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 22:36

Rajanb ji quoting Shri PS's quote from DEc 2011

On the LCA Tejas programe update:
We have completed initial the operational clearance (Ioc), which means the aircraft is ready for service. After this, it is the final operation clearance (Foc). but we have decided to include another stage – user evaluation Trials , an intermediate milestone before the Foc.In this stage, we have to integrate some new features with the Aircraft such as bomb, new drop tanks and also we are trying to expand the flight envelope in terms of another two degrees of angular attack.

Also based on the flight testing that we have done so far, the pilots have given us several valuable inputs as to how the pilotvehicle interface has to be improved. The Pilot Vehicle interface is a very important element in the design of avionics and flight control system of an aircraft. This should be very friendly for the pilot in terms of reducing the workload and giving him the best comfort when he is flying the aircraft
through critical and demanding mission.This PVI (Pilot vehicle interface) improvements normally emerge only after the pilots carry out the actual missions and then identify the deficiencies and suggest improvements. We are currently going through this important phase. Also an
Autopilot is very useful function to reduce the load of pilots in certain phase of flight. This autopilot has been accomplished and was made available to the pilots for evaluation. The autopilot function has been evaluated and valuable inputs have come for finalizing this function to be
used by the operational pilots.

Also another important feature towards the carefree maneuvering of the aircraft by the pilots is also getting evolved carefully.In addition to this, certain refinements of general electro mechanical system will be carried out to make the aircraft more user friendly or maintenance friendly. These are the activities which are currently in progress. Also, several activities which are required for final operations clearance are
also concurrently in progress.

So this 2 deg AoA increase is being attempted without LSP6 i guess

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 22:54

Thanks SuryaG. Please drop the ji. Am old in years but very young at heart!

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 02 Feb 2012 02:21

Surprising that there are no pics of LSP5's cockpit (it was supposed to be redesigned or atleast tweaked).

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Feb 2012 13:37

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1773 Test Flights successfully. (01-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-62)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1772 Test Flights successfully. (30-Jan-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-61)

Rajanb hope you can snap a pic or two of the LSP5 when it is zipping past your window

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Feb 2012 14:05

Surya, unfortunately that runway is at an angle to my residence. By the time it goes by my window i can just about make out its delta wing. And so I have learned to recognise it from the roar of its engine. So I get to see it if I am close to the window. And it is taking off so its quite fast. When the wind is south west then it comes in for landing. That's the time I can put my Canon 20X to good use. Will try and post.

Guys like Shiv, who play a decadent sport called golf

, get to see it better and bigger because it flys low over the KGA golf course.

Many thanks for the continuing updates on the LCA.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 03 Feb 2012 12:43

x-posting from mrca thread
Art of deal-making Bharat karnad

In fact, the US armed services’ eagerness to render this sort of assistance is reflected in a pioneering venture involving the naval variant of the Tejas. The Indian Navy had reportedly considered consulting with EADS and Dassault in areas such as determining the location of the arrester hook-landing system, ways to test this system, “aerodynamic fixes” to improve carrier takeoff and landing, optimising landing gear design to handle larger operating weight, integrating operational payload, reduction of aircraft weight, selecting an alternative engine for a better power-to-weight ratio, etc. The US Navy, which has the most extensive carrier aviation experience, was finally approached for advice.

The Indian Navy’s gambit paid off. Its Letter of Request, while occasioning a short but intense debate in the Office of the US Chief of Naval Operations, elicited a positive response. A Letter of Agreement and consultancy contract soon followed, and veteran US naval aviators, deputed for the job, began working seamlessly on the Light Combat Aircraft many months back. The reason for the success of this scheme, according to a Pentagon officer, was that all relevant decisions on the Indian side — from initial contact, drafting the consultancy contract, to payments and arrangements for hosting the American naval aviators — emanated from a single source, the officer heading the programme, Commodore C.D. Balaji, with the redtape-inclined defence ministry having no role.

Go Navy!

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 03 Feb 2012 16:55

Flight test update
LCA-Tejas has completed 1774 Test Flights successfully. (02-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-63)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1773 Test Flights successfully. (01-Feb-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-330,LSP1-67,LSP2-198,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-62)

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Feb 2012 17:03

^^^ We seem to tracking our very own bird on a daily basis. Hope there is a flight everyday and LSP 7 AND NP 1 hit the skies with their threatening thunder soon.

Remember our guys take sundays off.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 03 Feb 2012 17:23

rajanb wrote:Remember our guys take sundays off.

Only the pilots, not everyone

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Feb 2012 17:26

raghuk wrote:
rajanb wrote:Remember our guys take sundays off.
Only the pilots, not everyone

I know RaghuK. I have worked at HAL on a Sunday.

And enjoyed it, for the better good.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Feb 2012 19:40

rajanb wrote:
Guys like Shiv, who play a decadent sport called golf , get to see it better and bigger because it flys low over the KGA golf course.

HAL and IAF and Intel and Dell have spies posted outside KGA waiting for me. First they stop flying when I go there. Next, cars from Intel, Dell etc wait on the side roads for a signal that I am coming out of KGA and they all enter together together to clog up the roads.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Feb 2012 20:27

raghuk wrote:Only the pilots, not everyone

if it's ok to ask, any idea what the t/o, landing distances are like for LCA ?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Feb 2012 21:45

shiv wrote:
rajanb wrote:
Guys like Shiv, who play a decadent sport called golf , get to see it better and bigger because it flys low over the KGA golf course.
HAL and IAF and Intel and Dell have spies posted outside KGA waiting for me. First they stop flying when I go there. Next, cars from Intel, Dell etc wait on the side roads for a signal that I am coming out of KGA and they all enter together together to clog up the roads.

Ahhh. Unfortunately all the people I knew at HAL have hung up their boots. So no luck getting in there ever again.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 05 Feb 2012 09:26

Navy chief says ADA let it down on LCA front - The Hindu

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma on Saturday lambasted the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for frequent time overruns in the development of the Naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

“They [ADA] focused largely on the Air Force programme and the LCA [Navy] did fall behind…. There have been many promises made by the ADA but they failed us,” he told The Hindu on Saturday on the sidelines of the ongoing multi-naval Milan initiative hosted by the Navy.

Terming the carrier-borne aircraft development programme ‘crucial' for the Navy, he said the naval version of the aircraft was considerably different from the Air Force version, given the type of forces it would undergo while making arrested landings on a carrier deck. This called for a reinforced undercarriage. “It is often said that there is only 15 per cent difference between both versions. The Navy has always maintained that it may be 15 per cent in terms of material and systems, but it is a substantial part. And they [ADA] underestimated it.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2012 09:37

So now that IN seeking USN expertise for undercarriage designs reported by Bharat Karnad, make sense.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Feb 2012 09:50

IN atleast is going ahead with LCA rather than dump it..

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Feb 2012 10:02

Kakarat wrote:Navy chief says ADA let it down on LCA front - The Hindu

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma on Saturday lambasted the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for frequent time overruns in the development of the Naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

“They [ADA] focused largely on the Air Force programme and the LCA [Navy] did fall behind…. There have been many promises made by the ADA but they failed us,” he told The Hindu on Saturday on the sidelines of the ongoing multi-naval Milan initiative hosted by the Navy.

Terming the carrier-borne aircraft development programme ‘crucial' for the Navy, he said the naval version of the aircraft was considerably different from the Air Force version, given the type of forces it would undergo while making arrested landings on a carrier deck. This called for a reinforced undercarriage. “It is often said that there is only 15 per cent difference between both versions. The Navy has always maintained that it may be 15 per cent in terms of material and systems, but it is a substantial part. And they [ADA] underestimated it.”

Heh heh, there is the IN's pitch for the Rafale - fly Navy! Seriously though - the technocrats have been a little overambitious before too. In any case, it'd have to be a miracle of sorts to have a single engined bird, that too with a some what anemic TWR to take of from a STOBAR carrier. But who knows.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2012 21:11

Between the cup and lip, there is a slip. I do see the reasons and arguments from both sides.. I think there are ways to work towards an expected schedule by right sizing, and right estimation methods on things. But there is also an empirical data that does no good to ADA, for the past in the minds of people, and this is where many anti-national media men have made their $$s.

I was reading about F-18 actuators... especially the EHA one, that I guess the right technology for LCA to grasp. It would increase reliability and space gain.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Feb 2012 13:07

Cant stop admiring the bird, what a handsome dude he is... darn i wish he is inducted soon

all my prayers for tejas
tejas at goa

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 07 Feb 2012 13:10

http://www.defencenow.com/news/500/firs ... ramme.html

The DRDO Chief V.K. Saraswat has stated that issues over platform safety had been overcome and that the team was finally confident about entering the flight-test phase. Some of the issues that needed to be addressed include the platform’s landing gear, recovery mechanism and approach control laws.

"addressed" or "tested"?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Feb 2012 13:16

Nothing new the same old stuff, I dont know how many times they will overcome the difficulties

sorry for sounding so cynical, wont believe until it flies

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2012 17:10

well nobody forced the "smallest lightest airframe" thing on them, its a self-inflicted wound.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 07 Feb 2012 17:30

Thinking back, it was the naval prototype which was given so much hype on 6th July 2010, unlike airforce TDs and PVs or trainer...

All that smoke-screen, celebrations, being towed out of the hanger - little did we know it wouldnt take off for the next year and a half

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Feb 2012 18:44

only process & engineering maturity can lead to process optimization further leading to advanced thoughts like miniaturization. first steps, and step by steps are the only way to go about this.

self inflicted wounds will have to factor healing ratios as well.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 09 Feb 2012 08:23

Okie experts tell us the design changes done on NP1

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2012/02/n ... th-np.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2012 08:38

suryag, Not an expert but looks like NP1 is a total new design. The article says the areas that were changed are:

...
“The overwhelming challenge of large structural loads, better over the nose vision has lead to heavier undercarriage and re-design of the front fuselage. Commonality was achieved in only few mechanical systems and avionics. The stringent naval requirements and rigorous ground testing of various systems is nearing completion,” say sources.
The modification of flight control laws, cabin pressurization including environment control checks, laser precision alignments and host of associated naval flight critical systems are in its final stages. “The landing gear with its high sink rate of 7.1 m/sec arising from ship deck requirement has imposed serious challenge to the designer which has now been successfully circumvented.

The NP-1 has completed its ground vibration test (GVT), structural coupling test (SCT) and extensive system integration tests with power plant using state-of-the-art facilities,” sources said.

Fuel management with dump facility for emergency recovery on board is a special feature of this aircraft. The heart of the flight control system (FCS), which is a quadruplex redundant digital flight control computer supplemented by LEVCON (leading edge vortex controller) air data computer, is being integrated with auto throttle and arrester hook. “The LEVCON functionalities for conventional and ramp take-off is under regression checks for final assessment on various simulators prior to its implementation on the aircraft. The arrester hook design for ship-borne operations is yet another unique carrier borne feature,” sources said.

The aircraft so far has completed four engine ground runs (EGRs), including three with after burner for entire operational envelope. “The platform is underway for low and high-speed ground handling and flying quality checks to assess the aircraft characteristics prior to its maiden flight,” sources said.

The big lapse that services have is they dont seem to have periodic updates on the program progress. Looks like total redesign of LCA was done and proofed on ground. How come the IN chief lashed out as he appeared to be not in the loop? Atleast did he have a staff officer monitor the program? Did he or his flag officers attend any program reviews?

Seems the LCA program also did not manage the expectations of the IN.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Feb 2012 08:51

It is disheartening that there should be communication problems with the services and developers. I think, they should come out of this shell of humbleness and be point blank on where they stand, and how much time they actually require. No body is good at estimations, but I guess we have progress done [probability theory of past data of similar work /prediction intervals from actual data(hope they fill correct timesheets)], and have enough data on such projects to estimate it better.

I am sure there is an argument here to the fact, this is something different and new.. but there is also a fact in the database, that this not entirely new, and there is a baseline data. hence, my argument.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 09 Feb 2012 08:58

That article by Tarmak, is probably a response to the Naval Chief outburst, it is dated Feb 9th.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 09 Feb 2012 09:11

Thanks Ramana guru. I was wodnering if any of our experts could figure out visually the changes made to the front fuselage based on the high res pics in the link. Btw was the F35 supposed to have a problem with fuel dumping ? If our guys have accomplished it kudos to them.

No word still on LSP7 though

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 09 Feb 2012 09:26

Quoting Shri.Balaji during the roll out for posterity

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/07/lc ... l-out.html

In 2003, based on the progress made on the Air Force LCA Programme the Govt approved Phase-1 development of 2 LCA Navy Prototypes that would operate from an aircraft carrier with the concept of Ski-jump Take-off and Arrested Recovery (STOBAR). Navy actively supported this Challenging programme to design, develop, build and flight test a carrier borne aircraft for the first time in the country. The two prototypes under development would be used to demonstrate that the aircraft is capable of operating from a ship, i.e., carrier compatible.

The question often asked is ‘what are the changes in LCA(Navy) in comparison to the Air Force version?’ Typically the aircraft will get airborne in about 200m over the ski-jump on the ship as against a land based take-off run of about 800m. Landing on the ship is with an arrester hook on the aircraft engaging an arrester wire on the ship and the aircraft stops in 90m which is about 1/10th land based stopping distance.

Unlike shore based take-off and landing applications, typical ship borne requirements imposes large loads on the aircraft structure which entails new design. Also, the nose section of the aircraft is drooped down in order to have better pilot vision for ship landing. Whilst the external aerodynamic shape of the aircraft is same as the Air Force Trainer, the internal structure is entirely different due to larger loads resulting from carrier operations. However, all Mechanical, Avionics and Flight Control system layout are by and large common with the Air Force version. The design of LCA(Navy) has been performed in a 3Dimensional Computer Aided Design (CAD) concurrent engineering environment. A Digital Mock Up (DMU) of the aircraft was ultimately created which had all the internal equipment laid out. This helped in visualising possible areas of clash with various system groups and the structural interfaces due a possibility of ‘virtual walk through’. No physical mock up has been built. Due to first time design, there could be additional reserve factors taken as a conservative measure, but would be optimised based on experience in the future prototypes. This would result in significant weight savings.

Areas identified as challenges over and above the Air Force Version were structural design, Landing gear design, arrester hook, introduction of a new control surface (LEVCON) and ski-jump take-off. A case in point for Naval specific activities was the development of large sized landing gear forgings. Midhani had to develop the special tooling and processes and provide the special steel forgings. In addition, Bharat Forge, Pune provided the near shaped forgings of the major landing gear elements. These have been fabricated at private companies at Hyderabad and landing gears have been assembled at HAL (Nasik). Some of the typical challenges encountered during the development cycle, resulted in them taking longer than anticipated. However, today these have been resolved and we all await the aircraft’s rollout in the presence of the Hon’ble Raksha Mantri and the Chief of the Naval Staff.

In its primary role of Air to Air combat, the aircraft will carry both Close Combat Missiles (CCM) and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles. In its Air to Sea role, the aircraft will carry Anti Ship Missile (ASM). The aircraft can carry external fuel drop tanks to increase range and endurance. The aircraft can carry a wide variety of bombs based on role requirement.

To meet specific Naval testing, new test facilities have and are being developed. A new landing gear drop test facility has been created to handle testing to Naval requirements for qualifying larger landing gear loads. A hardware-in-loop simulation for flight control system testing called ‘Iron-bird’ has been set up and functioning. In this facility, entire hydraulics, flight control system and avionics would be integrated for the evaluation of the software. The Avionics and Weapon test rigs have been suitably modified to test the changes in system layout and architecture required for the Naval version. Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) to simulate an aircraft carrier with ski-jump and arrested recovery is being set up at the Naval Air Station at Goa. The ski-jump facility is expected to be ready by the last quarter of 2011 and the landing area a year later. Goa Shipyard Ltd is handling the complete structural work, system integration and operations. R&D Engineers and CCE(R&D) west Pune are handling the civil works. Specialised equipment supply is from Russia in order to have the same configuration as on the Vikramaditya.

It is critical to demonstrate carrier compatibility to infuse confidence in the Indian Navy that we indeed have a Carrier borne aircraft and towards that it is critical to demonstrate ski-jump take off and validate the simulations that have been carried out by the control Law team. Navy has defined the Mission and Performance requirements expected of the aircraft. As mentioned earlier, due to first time design, there may be shortfall in certain parameters with the current engine. Two more LCA(Navy) prototypes has been sanctioned by the Govt in Dec 2009 with a higher thrust engine to enable meeting the Mission objectives set out by the Navy.

The act of ‘Rollout’ is a significant milestone in the development process of an aircraft wherein it is structurally complete, equipment installed, plumbing and wiring completed. The aircraft is on its wheels and can be moved by assisted power and is a precursor to the phase of ground based system integration testing leading the engine ground run, taxi tests and flight. Every effort is being made by all the stake holders to have the maiden flight in 3 to 4 months time.

This day of NP1 rollout has been possible with the active involvement of HAL as the Principal Partner of ADA and support by DRDO, CSIR labs, CEMILAC, DGAQA, Public and Private sector industries, Educational Institutions and a host of other agencies. I wish to salute all of those who have contributed as a composite LCA Navy Team in realising this important milestone and look forward to the same spirit to take the aircraft towards its maiden flight at the earliest.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Feb 2012 10:33

Well, what is quite obvious from the Tarmak article is that the work was not 15% different from IAF version....and that is where heartburn from IN lies. It seems it was a case of overpromise in when it came to development timeframe and underassessment of challenges....I was hoping DRDO would have learn from LCA saga so far.