LCA News and Discussions

[Rakesh]

SaiK: His website has listed that he has limited updates till May 10th. Will have to wait till then.

[shiv]

Ok... who is this good looking young lady in red saree having such naughtier look & who is she looking at & what was happening at the other end & why the camera person is focusing on some old man with gloomy apron ?

Kansongaru. I too the photo at Aero India 2011. The lady is making eyes at the person whom Mao is talking to - Adm Arun Prakash - former CNS and the man who busted up the right stuff at the wrong place - that is the man destroyed up Chuck Yeager that Paki lover's aircraft in an air raid in the 1971 was.

[pradeepe]

That is one beautiful aircraft. I am picturing a silhouette of three of them heading out into the evening skies with a carrier force in the background. This year has been kind to the jingo heart.

[SaiK]

does anyone has links to control law article once posted here?: my old links don't work.

looking for:
1. What language did ADA use for the embedded LCA control law software? C/ADA?
2. FADEC controls, ECU - what language was used? c/c++?
3. Other operating system platforms used.

--

btw, I think shiv ji's camera focused (focal point) was on the red dot, while his camera direction was at the afsar.

[VikramS]

Ok... who is this good looking young lady in red saree having such naughtier look & who is she looking at & what was happening at the other end & why the camera person is focusing on some old man with gloomy apron ?

Kansongaru. I too the photo at Aero India 2011. The lady is making eyes at the person whom Mao is talking to - Adm Arun Prakash - former CNS and the man who busted up the right stuff at the wrong place - that is the man destroyed up Chuck Yeager that Paki lover's aircraft in an air raid in the 1971 was.

Hakeemji Your ability to frame the context is unparalleled.

[Nick_S]

Any guess as to how many t/r moduled radar panel it can house, and any size comparision between NLCA and LCA?

The LCA nose cone is pretty big for a small aircraft. IMO, a LCA AESA radar could incorporate about 1200 T/R modules.

For comparison:

LCA MMR - 650mm (as per Harry)
Gripen PS-05/A radar - 600mm ; AESA set will have about 1000 TR modules
Eurofighter Captor - ~700mm ; 1426 TR modules

[Philip]

What is the size of the MIG-29K's radar and would it be compatible with the NLCA's nose? Commonality would be ideal.What about the Russian AESA that was to have been fitted to the MIG-35? Or could the LUSH radar on the Sea Harrier's be used so that commonality with its radar and weaponry (Derby) is possible.Any idea which way the NLCA is going on this issue?

[Cain Marko]

What is the size of the MIG-29K's radar and would it be compatible with the NLCA's nose? Commonality would be ideal.What about the Russian AESA that was to have been fitted to the MIG-35? Or could the LUSH radar on the Sea Harrier's be used so that commonality with its radar and weaponry (Derby) is possible.Any idea which way the NLCA is going on this issue?

Most likely will start out with MMR or EL-2032 (which is on the Shar). The derby has already been chosen so integration with it would be easiest via the EL-2032 route or perhaps even the MMR since the latter has some input from the EL-2032 iirc. Can't see commonality with the 29K until the Astra comes online. After the fulcrums see an MLU, we might see more commonality with the NLCA.

[tejas]

I have always thought the Tejas was a great looking fighter. But I'm sorry the naval Tejas looks so tiny its almost toy like (runs and ducks for cover to avoid brickbats).

[rgsrini]

^^tejas,
You are not alone. Naval version looked awesome as a model, when I first saw it. However, when you compare the photos of the real plane, IMO, Tejas is miles ahead of the Naval version. The hump is too big for its length IMVHO.

My vote stays with Tejas, as far as the appearance is concerned.

I am sure in certain angles, it will be spectacularly photogenic.

[SaiK]

The only thing that is absent in naval LCA is the frontal divertless intake looks..chappal-less kat would then be on bikinis.

Thanks Nick for the comparisons.. again driving 1200 T/Rs is awesome, but power consuming, and I predict it has to be less consuming and high performing AlGaN onlee.

[pankajs]

LCA 'Tejas' to be inducted in Air Force this year: DRDO chief

Indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 'Tejas' will be inducted into the Indian Air Force this year, DRDO chief V K Saraswat has said.

"With 'Tejas' completing almost 1,855 flying hours (flight tests) and all problems it encountered during the initial operational clearance having been solved, it is ready to enter into the final operational clearance phase. With production also having taken off at HAL... we are now at the verge of writing history as far as aeronautics is concerned," he said here.

"LCA will be inducted this year in the armed forces where our own squadrons of Air Force will be flying this aircraft," he said.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) director general was speaking after inaugurating the 'Aerospace Luminary Lecture Series' organised by Hyderabad chapter of Aeronautical Society of India last night.

Referring to the recent successful maiden flight of the Naval variant of LCA, Saraswat said, "The first flight trial of LCA Navy achieved capability, particularly on take off and landing, from an aircraft carrier. The Naval variant will certainly be a force multiplier for Indian Navy."

The LCA has been conceived and designed by DRDO's Aeronautical Development Agency and manufactured at Bangalore- based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Saraswat said April 2012 will go down in the history as a historic month as it saw successful launches of Agni-V, RISAT-I (radar imaging satellite) and first flight trial of LCA Navy.

India today has a potent long-range ballistic missile system, said Saraswat, who is also the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.

Nuclear capable Agni-V ballistic missile, with a strike range of over 5,000 km, was successfully test-fired on April 19.

[Kakarat]

From MOD Annual Report

Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite for LCA:
Advanced EW suite for LCA is under development as a joint development programme between DRDO and M/s Elisra. The Suite consists of signal processor, transmitters and other LRU’s. The system is being installed in LCA Tejas PV-I to evaluate the performance during flight. Aircraft is being integrated with EW system.

[Karan M]

Thanks - this actually confirms what I had posted earlier about the IAF's revised specs for the LCA asking for an EW suite. This EW suite is in turn a more advanced version of the one on the MiG-27, with DARE working with ELISRA for some of the hardware (which'll be made by BEL). The core of the suite is a flexible processing architecture and receiver (DARE's IP) which can be adapted to multiple uses and placements. This is very critical - as both DARE and DLRL have now developed the capability to detect, classify and sort amongst advanced signal transmitters (LPI for example). The exhibits at Defexpo, clearly showed this capability for the first time. DLRL has a similar ESM system made for all three services, while DARE is taking care of the airborne aspect. So basically, the brains and software that receive these signals, process them (identify, differentiate and figure out how to counter) and then direct the jammer are now inhouse The MiG-29 Upgrade for instance, uses the same core, but with the Tx side codeveloped with Elettronica which is working with DARE to make a customized AESA fit with higher ERP (as suited for the MiG-29). The Super-30 upgrade, as publically shown by DARE, shows two wingtip mounted pods. Possibly yet another application of the same DARE core, but with newer Hardware for the transmit side.

Overall, good progress made in electronic warfare.

[suryag]

This was also mentioned by Col.Shukla in one of his articles. The aircraft was supposed to go to Gwalior for testing there. PV-1 IIRC was chosen because it was equipped with the plain vanilla 404 and it couldnt be used for much flight testing so it was rigged for this purpose

[Karan M]

The LCA is a Mirage 2000/MiG-29 equivalent, with better sensors than earlier Marks of both planes, in the footprint (size, logistics) of the MiG-21. This small size enforced by IAF requirement of ensuring LCA can operate within the infrastructure of the vast majority of our AFB (which have everything from HAS, to apron sizes etc influenced by different flavors of the MiG-21), makes this plane a very potent one, no doubt but also makes the design and development very challenging. Basically, the amount of optimization done at LRU level has to be very high. These units have to be compact, modular and easily accessible. Not an easy task when the amount of volume is only so much. This also partly explains why ADA/HAL are so careful when they have to do interior redesign - recently, the entire fuel/hydraulics arrangement was revisited with some redesign/rerouting, after some fuel lines leaked.

I have been long awaiting even one journalist to pick up this aspect and ask some cogent questions about the lessons learnt and how they are applicable for the future - "dense packaging" will be essential even for the AMCA, but then expecting that of our local journalist fraternity is too much.

The great editor of the esteemed Indian Express, who pontificates on programs such as the LCA and has his juniors attack them in his paper, did not even know the meaning of IOC. I don't know many acronym's, says he. Yet, he is an expert on everything from technology development to army movements

Another interesting thing is that the ADA originally explored a version of the LCA called the LCA - agile. This would have a higher thrust engine, aerodynamics improvements & some avionics improvements as well. Its interesting to see this version will see the light of the day in the form of the LCA MK2, which practically speaking has all these planned improvements.

[SaiK]

How much commonality one can see between LCA Mk2 and nLCA? I doubt we still have not gotten the core engine GE 414-INS6 ported into it yet, and that would really mean lot of things needs to be revisited for upthrusted engine specs, and how various things handle.

Not long back ago we had this debated on how does these changes will make the LCA Mk2 look like? lot of speculations were made.. any look and feel pics available as to how the mk2 will be?

[SaiK]

somethings I found here

http://idp.justthe80.com/air-force-proj ... /tejas-mk2

The fuselage has been extended by 500mm.
retractable fuel probe
weight reductions - wonder how much it will be offset by fuselage extension?
are some of the interesting changes.
All these will have be done by another 1 1/2 years time left (2014)

[SidSom]

During one of the exercises with Khan, their pilots were highly appriciative of Mig-21 with its big jammer. A small plane with a big jammer really put them off... Going by the same analogy I believe Mig 21++ (which is a way of derogating Tejas) should really kick some a%^ not only will it have better aerodynamics but it will have better avionics and finally be more reliable. Our constant rant has been produce it as is..... lets get this plane in IAF and work on constantly improvements.... Learn from the panda....

[shiv]

Folks on the general issue of cuteness or un-cuteness of Naval LCA - I think the real deal will be a single seater. It made no sense to make a single seat NLCA because pilots require special training in carrier take-off/landing. Hence NLCA first build is a two seater for training purposes.Clearly it will carry less fuel and payload than a future fighter.

[vina]

I have been long awaiting even one journalist to pick up this aspect and ask some cogent questions about the lessons learnt and how they are applicable for the future - "dense packaging" will be essential even for the AMCA, but then expecting that of our local journalist fraternity is too much.

That is expecting way too much from those dorks. Most have them lack at least one of the following three a) Any sense of understanding even high school physics b) Any rigor in terms of logical analysis and commonsense c) Ethics . A significant number of those dorks lack more than 2 with Ethics being disturbingly the one they lack most often.

[SidSom]

Ethics . A significant number of those dorks lack more than 2 with Ethics being disturbingly the one they lack most often.

I agree it was sad seeing that the newly launched US Boeing 787 for AirIndia occupied Page 1 slot where as the first flight of our very own LCA was relegated to an inner page

[saje]

The NLCA's capabilities (short, light, STOL, strengthened landing gear) would also make it the best candidate for road-based operations from the forward areas in the event of a nuclear strike or during a 'two-front war'. Do we have any idea as to what the final takeoff/landing run of the NLCA would be?

[shiv]

Saw a Tipnis grey SDRE LCA take off today - pay have been the same one that did the Aero India demo with marks on wing.

[SaiK]

so, how many single seater nLCAs are planned?

any photoshop gurus could model a single seater nLCA?
and another on with a superimposed landing on ADS?
and for those creative gurus, perhaps a modified twin engined divertless nLCA! (just a wish onlee)

[PratikDas]

any photoshop gurus could model a single seater nLCA?

Photoshop not required. BR has a photo here.

[suryag]

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1839 Test Flights successfully. (27-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-339,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-49,LSP4-49,LSP5-80,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1837 Test Flights successfully. (26-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-339,LSP1-74,LSP2-206,PV5-36,LSP3-49,LSP4-49,LSP5-80,LSP7-2)

[Indranil]

any photoshop gurus could model a single seater nLCA?

Photoshop not required. BR has a photo here.

NP2 most probably will look like that.

However, LCA NAVY MkII will look much more similar to the airforce version.

Click to enlarge

[Bala Vignesh]

Thanks Indranil sir for the images..
The frontal view of the nLCA sure looks mighty similar to that of Gripen..

[member_20317]

I have been long awaiting even one journalist to pick up this aspect and ask some cogent questions about the lessons learnt and how they are applicable for the future - "dense packaging" will be essential even for the AMCA, but then expecting that of our local journalist fraternity is too much.

That is expecting way too much from those dorks. Most have them lack at least one of the following three a) Any sense of understanding even high school physics b) Any rigor in terms of logical analysis and commonsense c) Ethics . A significant number of those dorks lack more than 2 with Ethics being disturbingly the one they lack most often.

That reminds me of someone I knew a long time back. He was a Metallurgy graduate engineer with a strong moral fiber and he tried to make it in Journalism. He used to tell me how English Honours and History Honours graduates are preferred at most English language dailies. After investing a few years he had to give up last I heard of him, he had migrated back to engineering.

[member_20317]

Also I read in some site that a delta wing does not need a very high Angle of Attack. Can someone point me towards something on this (dummies level).

[SaiK]

nice pics.. interestingly the naval Mk2 shows a very different undercarriage (more steroidal), than the dual seater NP1. [/artist error]

[Indranil]

Thanks Indranil sir for the images..
The frontal view of the nLCA sure looks mighty similar to that of Gripen..

Glad you liked it ... but no 'sir', no 'ji' please ... Well the Tejas and Gripen has many things in common.

Also I read in some site that a delta wing does not need a very high Angle of Attack. Can someone point me towards something on this (dummies level).

On what feature?

If you are interested, read this. you need not understand the formulas, just understand the logic
click

Coming back to turn rates ... actually you have to be much more precise ... there are a lot of variables involved like speed, altitude etc ... the delta wing just by itself would be excellent for instantaneous turn rate but not for sustained turn rates ... this is somewhat offset with high TWR to overcome the high drag ... also modern delta wings will use slats/canards/vortex generating devices and to maintain control at lower speeds and FBW to lower the drag.

In a typical duel, the pilot with the delta wing (P1) will try to use higher energy from its less draggy cruise/dash and higher instantaneous turn rate to get his nose inside the line of a turning duel first and go for a gun/missile option. Whereas the swept-wing pilot (P2) would try to avoid the first salvo and try to get P1 in a long sustained turn duel ... as P1 loses speed faster, after about 5-6 seconds, the P2 can go for higher alpha to get his nose inside P1 and go for a gun/missile option.

Also the high instantaneous turn rates of the delta are very helpful in breaking out of missile locks etc.

[SaiK]

I have never seen a delta winged TVC fighter. And any analysis on such a plane adds vital discussion points for our LCA.

[srai]

I have never seen a delta winged TVC fighter. And any analysis on such a plane adds vital discussion points for our LCA.

Check this out: Rockwell-MBB X-31

[SaiK]

cool.. thanks for that. doh, why I did not think about X31! (gray hair). The 3 axis design is a good basis for LCA. Further modifications can be done such that the 3 axis could hinge on to extenders, and provide higher degree of angle so that it can serve dual purpose thrusting - reverse thrusting capabilities.

[Abhibhushan]

Air Marshal Rajkumar responds to the post The Tejas Arrives

[vina]

Air Marshal Rajkumar responds to the post The Tejas Arrives

Don't know who this TKS dude is, but yeah, whatever, he seems to be the classic stereotype of an IAF/Army type who while good in what they do, simply don't have the background, training, temper ,skills and most importantly institutional backing in terms of rewards to actually develop something new.

Lets face it. An officer who does really well in doing something like product /weapons development is really an orphan. He is really committing career suicide.. (duh.. if you want to rise in the IAF, would you rather be a Group Commander or a test pilot at NFTC.. ask the first Tejas test pilot that question.. though he left to fly Deccan airways!).

Also, the way the IAF acted is really shameful. Just like the Kaveri project..(hello.. they were simply supposed to fail and be wound up, but holly molly, unfortunately they have come up with a working engine!), the entire Tejas itself was an orphan child. Folks who had the "Sucker.. Kicked Upstairs on the Way Out" stuck on their backs were posted as Project Heads, IAF couldn't be bothered, why, they couldn't even be bothered to think about what kind of weapons the planes will fly with.

The attitude was.. Oh well. Let the damn thing fly at all! No way it can fly. The FBW is stuck. The civilians can't make it..Haa. Haa. There boy, A peg of Whiskey! Harrumph. What do they know about planes ? Guess what, it flew and then. Oh dang!.. Now they want to know what kind of weapons. but hey. weren't you supposed to be killed and not bother us.. Oh well.. Take these as weapons fit. What! Now you say the wings need to be redesigned /tweaked. It's your problem, not mine!.

In fact, when I first started posting here (must be 2005/6 I think) and I picked through a logical thread to see WTF they weren't doing carriage and separation trails, the only logical hunch I had that the wing wasn't aero-elastically good enough for the weapons fit the IAF wanted. All this was simply piecing together the open source info and making educated guesses. It was a stunning thought, and I wrote it here on BRF and was quickly confirmed by on poster who worked on the structural design for the Tejas and resulted in a 1 year delay!

The larger point is this. The IAF and the retired blow hards can harrumph all they want about "Bad Project Management" .. "Oh we told you so" (very rich and easy coming from folks sitting on their a**es in the side lines, but can't lift a finger to do anything). To all that, all I can say is this.

The IAF orphaned the Tejas project and simply didn't even want to talk of it and wished it would go away. But it keeps coming back like a bad dream! The IAF until recently (just like the Army with the Arjun), was a big part of the problem and not the solution. Old fuddy duddies blowing their foghorns doesn't change the fact.

We have a Gripen C/D class fighter entering service (think of it. India jumps right into a full multi role class fighter as it's first entry!) and will be fielding a Gripen NG class fighter soon. All in all a stupendous achievement with timeline to MK-II /Gripen NG being very similar.

What we have today is a fighter that is literally far far removed from the initial 1983/4 specs of the Tejas.

All I can say is that the bulk of the IAF are going to be very surprised when this reaches the squadrons and takes on other types like the M2K, Mig 29 and yes the SU-30. When those types have their A**es hand back to them by the Tejas, the shock will be something similar to what the Army brass had when the Arjun mauled their blue eyed boys , the TinCan-90s.

[SaiK]

call it shock and awe for the forces...eh!
there must be some inherent proudness here, and somewhere in their minds and hearts.
perhaps hidden, and can't say it.

[suryag]

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1840 Test Flights successfully. (30-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-340,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-49,LSP4-49,LSP5-80,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1839 Test Flights successfully. (27-April-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-339,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-49,LSP4-49,LSP5-80,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

Not sure about the following
1. Why hasnt PV-5 flown for a long time
2. Why hasnt LSP-7 flown after its second flight