Libyan War

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Airavat
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Airavat »

How Libya is a showcase in the new arms race

The Libyan operation also marks the combat debut for the Eurofighter Typhoon, a competitor to the Dassault Rafale built by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. An Italian Air Force version of that plane was snapped at the 2009 show hosted by Libyan generals. Two weeks ago, that base - to which arms firms including Dassault returned last November - was attacked by western bombs.

A spokesman for the Eurofighter consortium said it had "never been involved in talks to sell the aircraft to Libya" and its presence at the Lavex air show outside Tripoli in 2009 was part of an Italian delegation organised at government level.....France has been less timid about announcing arms talks with Libya which briefly held an exclusive option for Rafale jets.

India, Brazil, Denmark, Greece, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman and Kuwait are among a growing list of countries shopping for one or more of the fighters flying sorties over Libya. "Libya is a reminder that if you can't compete on the level of attack platforms, then you need to compete on the level of defence systems," says Siemon Wezeman, senior fellow at SIPRI. "Libya had reasonable air defences and yet they didn't make a dent. If you want to defend yourself, you need either the aircraft or the defensive systems. You will see countries asking people like Russia and China what they can provide."
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

aircraft rocket pod bolted to back of truck
http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/7374/800xs.jpg

old and young - the dogs of war
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4071/800xej.jpg
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

some priceless pics of improvised rockets here
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... eos/page80
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

rebels smoking hashish near their tank-tent
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1568/800xvr.jpg (and I have that exact same chinese made red velvet blanket!)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/327/800xhb.jpg
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8863/800xq.jpg

rebel dressed in what appears to a naval anti-flame mask...lord knows why unless he doesnt want his mom to know he's been out playing guns with the boys
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/20/800xem.jpg
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/8216/800xec.jpg

rebel arty lets rip
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/2226/800xe.jpg
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

btw the stalement @ brega continues...groups of young kids shooting rockets at each other but no real movement.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Klaus »

Certainly a lot of oddball characters in the rebel forces, certain personalities who aspire to be "showstoppers" and "superstars" in the scene once Q is out of the picture (and that is a big if).

The rebel with the anti-flame mask seems to be inspired by Spaghetti western sub-genre of bank-robber hollywood heroes, certainly shows that spark of American Dream (however flawed it might seem) in his actions and temperament, same with the rebel in the mad-max outfit.

For this very same reason, these rebels cannot be one cohesive unit, this rebellion seems to be one big personality establishment exercise for many of these rebels.

Singha ji, interesting that you bought the hashish point into the picture. I think this establishes beyond a doubt the network connections of the rebels into Sudan and Eritrea, possibly even Ethiopia. A mule trail transporting weapons and drugs from these countries, perhaps?

Another question is why is the Typhoon being pressed into service so late into the action, does it have anything to do with reduced US involvement or US pulling out of the scene entirely? Something regarding classified tech which EADS lobbies do not want Unkil to know?
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by shiv »

That is a rocket pod that would normally go under the wing of an aircraft - albeit modified/truncated somewhat -?57 mm?

Now I am not sure about this but those rockets are designed to fly true and can be aimed at a target. Firing them up in the air - they will probably fly straight until they run out of propellant and then fall. I am not sure how effective or accurate they can be - unles you are randomly trying to hit a city size target.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by atreya »

unless he doesnt want his mom to know he's been out playing guns with the boys
I guess he doesn't want Gadha-Fee's troops to know he's been out playing with guns. He'll get a nice little visit from them in case they lose :shock:
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

well Shiv, they aim in general direction by dead reckoning and practice and cook it off - if it fires, loud shouts of AoA rent the air.
nobody has a clue how much damage if any, these rigged up weapons cause.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

BBC - more blue on blue

7 April 2011 Last updated at 13:35 GMT

Libyan rebels near Ajdabiya 'killed in Nato air strike'


Rebels in eastern Libya say their forces have been mistakenly hit in a Nato air raid.

Doctors in Ajdabiya told the BBC at least 13 rebel fighters had been killed by the strike on a rebel tank position.

The BBC's Wyre Davies reports chaotic scenes on the outskirts of Ajdabiya, with rebel forces in retreat reporting being hit by Nato air strikes.

It is the third such incident in recent days involving international forces deployed to protect Libyan civilians.

One rebel commander told the BBC he saw at least four missiles land among rebel fighters.

Many people have been killed and many more have been injured, he said.

Civilians are reported to be fleeing Ajdabiya in their thousands, according to the latest wire reports, after rumours spread that Gaddafi forces were preparing to attack the city.
Rebel anger

The rebels had been taking a group of tanks, armoured vehicles and rocket launchers near the front line between the towns of Ajdabiya and Brega in more than 30 transporters.

Click to play

A doctor at Ajdabiya hospital tells the BBC's Wyre Davies that there are many serious injuries

Whether or not a Nato pilot mistook all of that heavy armour for Gaddafi weaponry remains unclear.

Following the apparent Nato attack, ambulances were seen heading in the opposite direction, towards the hospital in Ajdabiya.

There is considerable anger among rebel troops after what appears to have been a terrible mistake.

They are asking why rebel units were hit, when they could be seen clearly advancing in a westerly direction towards the front line.

"It is unbelievable," said one Benghazi resident. "Nato, with all the equipment they have - is this the second mistake? Is it really a mistake or something arranged secretly."

Another said: "The allies and the UN Security Council must allow us to be armed. We don't want anything, just to be armed to defend ourselves against this dictator and fascist."

Rebel forces in the area began retreating on Wednesday after heavy bombardment from government forces.

They had been calling for more Nato air strikes in recent days.

Nato is said to be looking into the incident.
'Friendly-fire incidents'

The alliance took over a week ago air operations from a US, French and British coalition to enforce a UN mandate to protect civilians in Libya.

Last Friday, at least 13 people were reportedly killed when a coalition plane fired on a rebel convoy between Brega and Ajdabiya.

Three medical students were among the dead.

The attack came after rebels reportedly fired an anti-aircraft gun.

In a separate incident, seven civilians died and 25 were hurt in a coalition air strike on a pro-Gaddafi convoy near Brega.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

CNN

rebels seems to advancing strongly to benghazi :D quite 180' from where they wanted to be:

A few hours after the strikes, civilians and rebels fearing, an approach by pro-Gadhafi forces, made a panicky retreat from Ajdabiya, with hundreds of civilian cars and trucks loaded with rocket launchers and ammunition headed out of town in the direction of the opposition headquarters in Benghazi. Tanks were reportedly part of the column of vehicles.
US firms getting rich from Gadhafi?

Ajdabiya has a population of about 100,000 people, but many already have left because they fear attacks by pro-Gadhafi forces and kidnappings by the government forces if they penetrate the town.

The Gadhafi regime's persistence in the face of NATO forces has frustrated and angered opposition leaders, who say they are not getting traction despite the alliance's no-fly zone and air cover. NATO said weather conditions and tactics by the Gadhafi regime, such as using human shields and hiding equipment in populated areas, have hindered its efforts.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by jimmyray »

Gadhafi plane evades NATO no-fly zone, bombs rebel tanks

AJDABIYA, Libya -- Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's air force evaded the U.N.-ordered NATO-enforced no-fly zone on Thursday and destroyed three rebel tanks parked along a key highway here, triggering a rebel retreat that seemed to pave the way for a full pro-Gadhafi assault on the city of Ajdabiya.

Rebels at first had blamed NATO for the airstrike, which witnesses said killed between two and six rebel fighters. But Eman Boughaigis, a spokesman for the rebel National Libyan Council in Benghazi, said the attack had actually been launched by a Gadhafi loyalist aircraft.

It was not immediately clear how the aircraft had evaded the no-fly zone, which the U.N. ordered last month to keep Gadhafi planes from attacking rebel forces. Until Thursday, Gadhafi appeared to have grounded his air units. Thursday's weather in the area was windy and there were small sandstorms, conditions that may have kept NATO aircraft from flying.

The rebel military commander, Abdelfatah Younis, on Tuesday slammed NATO for being too slow to respond to rebel requests to attack pro-Gadhafi units.

The tanks - three Soviet-built T-72s and a Soviet-built T-55 - had left Benghazi, the rebel capital, Wednesday to reinforce rebel positions near Brega, site of a strategic oil terminal where rebels and pro-Gadhafi forces have been battling for days. A rebel unit commander, Salah Saraj, 34, said the rebels had parked the tanks after NATO ordered them not to go forward.

A lone aircraft attacked the four tanks at about 11 a.m., according to another rebel fighter, Ahmed Salim Youssef, 25, who said he witnessed the attack. Three tanks suffered direct hits, Youssef said. Also hit was a bus carrying rebel fighters.

Youssef said the attack took place about 12 miles outside of Brega and that the aircraft made two passes at the tanks.

The assault apparently was carefully coordinated with Gadhafi loyalist ground troops. When the rebels abandoned their positions near the tanks, loyalist forces pursued, chasing the rebels to the western gate of Ajdabiya.

Ajdabiya was the last rebel redoubt before the capital of Benghazi, 100 miles away, but it appeared to be on the verge of being seized by loyalist forces Thursday evening. Rebels who had been at the city's western gate appeared to have fled through the city and were retreating toward Benghazi. The Ajdabiya hospital, where the wounded from the aerial attack had been taken, was being evacuated Thursday night.

Rebel forces have been unable to hold their positions without NATO air support and have been driven out of towns they once controlled along Libya's main coastal highway since NATO assumed command of the operation last week from the United States. Loyalist and rebel forces had been waging a seesaw battle for Brega, about 50 miles from Ajdabiya, for the past week, but on Thursday the loyalists had gained the upper hand.

If the loyalists also occupy Ajdabiya, it would return the battle standoff between the two sides to the lines they had held on March 19, the day aircraft from the United States, Great Britain, and France began their attack on Gadhafi air defenses and military positions.
There seems to be some confusion whether it was a NATO aircraft or Libyan Airforce aircraft. If this news is true and then it is definitely a new development. It would show that Gaddadfi airforce is still a threat for rebels.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

:rotfl:

rather than tripoli the rebels are surging strongly on benghazi...if ajdabiya falls situation will be back where it was when the COW went in.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by suryag »

will the untrained rebels make libya into euro's afghanistan, i.e., drain the little money that they have and still left with Gaddafi problem with no end in sight
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Chinmayanand »

US general says stalemate in Libya is more likely now that US has turned control over to NATO
The United States may consider sending troops into Libya with a possible international ground force that could aid the rebels, according to the general who led the military mission until NATO took over.

Army Gen. Carter Ham also told lawmakers Thursday that added American participation would not be ideal, and ground troops could erode the international coalition and make it more difficult to get Arab support for operations in Libya.

Ham said the operation was largely stalemated now and was more likely to remain that way since America has transferred control to NATO.

He said NATO has done an effective job in an increasingly complex combat situation. But he noted that, in a new tactic, Moammar Gadhafi's forces are making airstrikes more difficult by staging military forces and vehicles near civilian areas such as schools and mosques.

The use of an international ground force is a possible plan to bolster rebels fighting forces loyal to the Libyan leader, Ham said at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing.

Asked if the U.S. would provide troops, Ham said, "I suspect there might be some consideration of that. My personal view at this point would be that that's probably not the ideal circumstance, again for the regional reaction that having American boots on the ground would entail."

President Barack Obama has said repeatedly there will be no U.S. troops on the ground in Libya, although there are reports of small CIA teams in the country.

Ham disclosed that the United States is providing some strike aircraft to the NATO operation that do not need to go through the special approval process recently established. The powerful side-firing AC-130 gunship is available to NATO commanders, he said.

Other strike aircraft, including fighters and the A-10 Thunderbolt, which can provide close air support for ground forces, must be requested through U.S. European Command and approved by top U.S. leaders, including Defence Secretary Robert Gates. Ham said that process is quick, and other defence officials have said it can take about a day for the U.S. to approve the request and move the aircraft in from bases in Europe.

Ham said recent bad weather and threats from Gadhafi's mobile surface-to-air missile systems hampered efforts to use aircraft like the AC-130 and the A-10 to provide close air support for friendly ground forces. He says those conditions contributed to the stalemate.

Since the U.S. handed off the strike mission to NATO, U.S. planes account for only 15 per cent of NATO planes now doing those air attacks, Ham said.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by shiv »

I am now reading an immensely interesting book about the piskology of men at war, called "Acts or war" by Richard Holmes. I think it is a must read even for senior military officers and strategists - but I digress. (Will write a review sometime)

The effectiveness of men in combat increases up to three weeks into battle and may stay high for a further 2-3 weeks. But beyond that men in battle become ineffective and uncaring zombies- and may even put their own lives in danger apart from being ineffective. Good training improves this - but even the best trained men have had enough by 4-8 weeks of continuously being on the front. Ill trained men won't last even that long.

I expect the rebels are reaching that stage. Unless fresh men - or well rested experienced men are infused into the battle with clear aims the offensive will peter out and reach a stalemate. In any case their arms seem to be a limitless number of pick-up trucks with armament no heavier than can be accommodated on the back of a pick up truck
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by krishnan »

Fatigue , it takes lots of mental strength to stay sane after few weeks with so much killing going on
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

seems to me the rebels lack a clear org and unit structure....ultimately it has to be organized down to platoon level led by experienced NCOs and fighting always together with their own platoon.

so the failures are both at the top and bottom.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by UBanerjee »

Quite a turnaround from no boots on the ground, eh?

Hilariously overestimated rebel fighting capabilities, it seems.

OTOH it might just be talk to make Qaddafi do some dhoti-shivering and plump for an exit.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

indeed. smoke n mirrors for now to induce dhoti shiver.

qadhafi should call their bluff - which I think he will. he is smart or has smart people around him...low key effective 'players' as opposed to the iraqi cabal.
Last edited by Singha on 08 Apr 2011 12:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by bmallick »

Most of the pics that we have seen, shows that for heavy supporting fire the rebels mostly have rockets. Rockets on pickups, rockets on trucks etc. I haven't seen any pic of Arty guns, even small - medium calibre ones, or did I miss a few pictures.

This I think points to one interesting observation.
1. It is far more easier to train for handling rockets than artillery.
2. Rockets probably have easier logistic requirements.
3. Are more mobile.

Guru's are these observations wrong.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by krishnan »

All i am seeing is them firing it blindly in the air, i dont see any hits or targets getting blown off, looks like more psy ops. Looks like they are doing it for the video
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

I had posted a single pic of a 105mm RCL type gun mounted on a pickup. but thats the only artillery I have seen yet.

plenty of improvised rockets and the basic bm21 truck also.

not seen a single towed gun yet
seen a few pix of captured Palmyra SPG but never seen in action thereafter
no truck mounted arty gun seen - but maybe thats a modern concept as seen in archer 155mm/DONAR 155mm - libya may have none

between towed guns and BM21/pickups, the latter is certainly more mobile.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Aditya_V »

I was under the presumption from Western Media reports that the Libyan Airforce was complety put out of action in the 1/2 of Cruise Missile air stikes, but if the Libyan airforce is active in Eats Libya then it is certainly news to me, that the air defences, radars runaways etc have not been taken out, they are all within Cruise missile Bomb reach, so some SAM's must still be active to defend these bases.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

this mythical libyan AF strike maybe a H&D thing to cover up a NATO strike mistake.

with pervasive E3 cover were they not able to backtrack it to its base and target it immediately? if not, then awacs and fighter cover is probably withdrawn believing that all-iz-well.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Virupaksha »

IIRC when Gates was saying no to NFZ, it was said that such a no-fly zone with EWs is very effective against planes that use radars, not so much if radars are not used. Also dont know if NATO has air bases inside Libya for the 30-60 minute timeframe. One cant keep planes in air running in every zone all the time, it burns too much money.

Effects of initial attacks on bases could have been reduced by hardened shelters, camoflauge, dummies and most importantly repairs. Also whether initial attacks of France attacked all the bases is not known. Taking out a runway of even a medium airforce requires continuous attacks. I havent heard lately in this NATO operation of such attacks.

If Libyan airforce stops using radars and flies in a low-low profile and immediately comes back into the base. There is not much the present NFZ can do against such attacks.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by shiv »

krishnan wrote:All i am seeing is them firing it blindly in the air, i dont see any hits or targets getting blown off, looks like more psy ops. Looks like they are doing it for the video
Yes. We should be hearing some news of what the rockets are doing at the end of their flight.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

no mortar units seen either - it seems the rebels have not engaged in the 1-2km range fights where mortars are useful...moment the loyalists approach to within 5km its time to pack up and run.

the helicopter rocket pods used are claimed to have a range of 4km.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Klaus »

Singha wrote:no mortar units seen either - it seems the rebels have not engaged in the 1-2km range fights where mortars are useful...moment the loyalists approach to within 5km its time to pack up and run.
Indeed, almost seems like the rebels are putting a show for child refugees in Darfur, showing them the "thrills" and fascination of a soldier's life, trying to make a lasting impression on impressionable minds!
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by shiv »

ravi_ku wrote:IIRC when Gates was saying no to NFZ, it was said that such a no-fly zone with EWs is very effective against planes that use radars, not so much if radars are not used. Also dont know if NATO has air bases inside Libya for the 30-60 minute timeframe. One cant keep planes in air running in every zone all the time, it burns too much money.

Effects of initial attacks on bases could have been reduced by hardened shelters, camoflauge, dummies and most importantly repairs. Also whether initial attacks of France attacked all the bases is not known. Taking out a runway of even a medium airforce requires continuous attacks. I havent heard lately in this NATO operation of such attacks.

If Libyan airforce stops using radars and flies in a low-low profile and immediately comes back into the base. There is not much the present NFZ can do against such attacks.
Technically AWACS is supposed to pick up take offs - but perhaps the Libyan figured out when the AWCS was not lookig - or the airfield was "shielded" by a mountain range or something
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Henrik »

Image
Signatory at MP.net: "JAS 39C 'TIGER 37' refuel from SwAF C-130 'MIGHTY 65' for a recon mission near Tripoli, April 8 under Unified Protector. Crd: FC Stefan Wilson"
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Gaur »

^^
One of the best shots of Gripen. Thanks for sharing. :-)
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by SaiK »

nice spot on gripen for refuel-er probe. What is it doing in libya btw?
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

defending democracy, spreading freedom...
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Henrik »

SaiK wrote:nice spot on gripen for refuel-er probe. What is it doing in libya btw?
Participating in Operation Unified Protector together with 7 other Gripens, one C-130 tanker and one SIGINT aircraft.
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by jimmyray »

AFP reports that NATO intercepted a rebel MiG-23 as it tried to take off from Benghazi and there are also some reports that a rebel helicopter gunship was flying near the frontlines near Ajdabiya.

NATO forces Libyan rebel's fighter jet to land

NATO intercepts rebel fighter
NATO said it was investigating the report on the helicopter. Its warplanes intercepted a MiG-23 fighter jet flown near Benghazi by a rebel pilot on Saturday and forced him to land after he violated a UN-mandated no-fly zone, an official at the alliance told AFP later
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Raja Bose »

Why no pics of Gadha-fis army?
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Post by Singha »

there are plenty in militaryphotos.net forums but none in last week.
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