India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 21:27

Reasons are needed

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Apr 2011 21:31

Rakesh wrote:Reasons are needed

Yep. They should also represent the years they belong to....

How about Mig21 = SriDevi?

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Apr 2011 21:33

@ Rakesh: I propose MiG 21 - Ramya Krishnan. Old. Older than the current admirers (read pilots) still going strong and makin men out of boys and currently in use..

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 28 Apr 2011 21:45

This eventually can pave the way for F-35.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 21:50

OH MY!!!

Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 819298.ece

Selected gems from the above article...

....described the Indian government’s decision as having settled for a plane, not a relationship.

...yet, the bigger questions were not technical, but strategic.

...there is no reason why the administration should bend backwards to accommodate India.

...the GOI knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale [and] a quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Apr 2011 21:58

Congress govt. is not going to fly the plane, IAF is going to. If US make too much noise about this, then the C-17 deal will also be lost as the media will make it untenable for this govt. to be show any more favours.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 21:59

I can't believe they are taking this so personally. What did they think we are...Pakistan? This deal was America’s to win from day one…but they bungled it up with CISMOA, LSA, EUMA and a litany of other demands which turned off the IAF big time. Statements from past service chiefs (Admiral Sureesh Mehta for one) about EUMA should have alerted them to this.

Also, purposefully downgrading the Super Hornet to just meet the MMRCA requirements did not help either. Just imagine...you are going to buy a car and they tell you that this model of the car is available for sale. There is a more powerful model but you just can't have it...even if you have the cash, we will not sell it to you. Now will you go ahead and buy the 'vanilla' model?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Apr 2011 22:04

Rafalee - Sonali my all time favourite

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Apr 2011 22:05

^^^^^^ @Rakesh: You can't deny that it was supposed to be a show piece deal. The other contracts from transports and Naval aircrafts not withstanding.

Also with Khan lover MMS as the titular head they would have thought that it was in their pocket (I did think so)

MMS must be crying tears of blood........

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Apr 2011 22:06

India very well know the response and backlash when it took the decision. It may have factored all stuff especially the yankee-bunny lobbying is at a feverish pitch. IAF did the selection and MOD endorsed it at the end.

US needs to build trustworthy relationship with India and not another condom. They haven't thought so. As time progresses the Indo-US engagement will lead to a better relationship.

The frustration for US is not about commercial deal. It has invested tooo much to take hold of India after 1998 nuke tests. Too many moles, infiltrators in all sections of India's public and private governance and CIA swarming all over India. Yet they cannot achieve what they considered as stepping stone to make India as another condom.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Apr 2011 22:08

Er what happened to the "relationship" when the test rig and software for LCA were retained at Lockheed Martin and the people despatched home in May 1998? Pah!

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Apr 2011 22:09

suryag wrote:Rafalee - Sonali my all time favourite

This is perfect as compared to insulting Rafale by naming it as Katrina-the-pale-and-display-only actress

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 28 Apr 2011 22:09

In fairness to India, the Americans did nothing to alleviate India's concerns about sanctions in the future other than vaguely saying that the F-16 is used widely by many nations and the U.S. has successfully completed its obligations, blah, blah, blah. Why couldn't they just come out and say and guarantee explicitly that they will not impose any sanctions and withhold any parts, services, technologies and upgrades under any and all circumstances? What about these EUMA, CISMOA, etc.; the Americans insisted on them and this is the result. Never the less India already has purchased many other expensive systems from the U.S. and will continue to do so in the future, but not with this critical MMRCA at this time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 22:10

shiv wrote:Er what happened to the "relationship" when the test rig and software for LCA were retained at Lockheed Martin and the people despatched home in May 1998? Pah!

Saar, only we SDREs are supposed to have amnesia. That is the way it works.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 28 Apr 2011 22:10

Here is the link of Ashley Tellis who had written an article on MMRCA. It is 2 MB file.

www.carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 22:12

It was already posted on BRF before. Thanks though.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 28 Apr 2011 22:34

In terms of dollar value, GOI has done more than enough for Khan. Starting with the Air India deal for Boeing/G.E a few years back, American maal has been purchased wherever it has been on par with the need. If the strategic relationship is defined as every deal being sent the Khan way in return for seeing the neighborhood Banana republic being armed then to h*** with it.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Apr 2011 22:45

Bharadwaj wrote:In terms of dollar value, GOI has done more than enough for Khan. Starting with the Air India deal for Boeing/G.E a few years back, American maal has been purchased wherever it has been on par with the need. If the strategic relationship is defined as every deal being sent the Khan way in return for seeing the neighborhood Banana republic being armed then to h*** with it.

Few more C130 and C17 should make US companies happy.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 28 Apr 2011 23:05

Masterful move by GOI to pit the EF against the Rafale.

The EF was always the front-runner for many reasons (I had analyzed the reasons about a year ago in this forum). In fact, Germany and Britain may even be under the belief that it is their right to win this deal. But by pitting the EF against a very similar Rafale, the onus is now on the EADS consortium to come up with a price offer that would beat Rafale's. The planes are so similar that EADS doesn't really have an excuse for not being able to offer the EF at the same price-point as France is offering Rafale.

GOI has ensured that India cannot lose from this point onwards.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Apr 2011 23:06

Acharya wrote: Few more C130 and C17 should make US companies happy.

Acharayaji, the takleef is this - currently. Khan power is personified by two things amongst World public. Its aircraft carrier sailing ominously over a calm sea and the multi-role fighters that dash off to smote "God's righteous anger". Forget the fact that those 10s of bus-size satellites make it all possible. In fact no lowly tinpot cringes when these satellites silently flit over their heads. But the stock footage of roaring teen fighters and stock footage of a carrier with lots of conveniently parked craft in CNN makes them assume the worst......

So any number of orders for transports is not going to get khan to acknowledge that their wazikashi is blunt. Especially when said by an SDRE warrior with a barely straight face. There is going to be bitterness against India. Bitterness of a kind that would make a paki jihadi or Osamy-mama contemplate apostasy.....

Geez, I cant afford a 2$ meal, but boy am I laughing

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 28 Apr 2011 23:15

Very good timing on MoD's part. The actual choices for the downselect have probably been firm for a while now, and this was just a matter of when to let the news out: the POTUS is busy trying to convince anyone who'll listen to him as to where exactly he was born, and it's not like GoI would not have known in advance of Roemer's departure. Very Chini like sense of timing.

There'll certainly be attempts to scupper this. It's important that folks keep it in mind when they start rolling in, and not just wring hands and respond emotionaly - classify the leaks and rumors by source and just paint them with it. Known flunkies can be expected to come up with their works once the money is wired in and they've finalized their drafts to publicize. Just mark them off from the list as they come out with diatribes. For now, there's just Ashley Tellis wagging his finger with his 'you Indians...!' rant (yes, I know he's SDRE too).

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Apr 2011 23:16

hnair wrote:
So any number of orders for transports is not going to get khan to acknowledge that their wazikashi is blunt. Especially when said by an SDRE warrior with a barely straight face. There is going to be bitterness against India. Bitterness of a kind that would make a paki jihadi or Osamy-mama contemplate apostasy.....

Geez, I cant afford a 2$ meal, but boy am I laughing

I know. There is something else bigger which is going on above all this noise. It will start after oct.

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Apr 2011 23:30

has there been any competition where khan planes have been involved with others and they haven't won it...or get a separate deal?
If no...then these results are gonna stung hard...and should be heard like a gong, go to hell...

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 29 Apr 2011 00:00

Pros for Rafale:
1. Rafale is being flown only by French airforce
2. Has a higher payload caPacity
3. Rafale is not currently flown by any middle-east country
4. Full tech transfer
5. IAF is extremely happy with mirages
6. Similarity with mirages
7. Snecma engines

Pros for EF:
1. Consortium of friendly countries
2. Smallest radar cross-section
3. Reliable engines
4. Used by airforces of many countries

Cons for Rafale:
1. Only One user - French
2. French may supply to any user for money

Cons for EF:
1. Khichdi of 4 partners
2. Non operational for lack of spares in Royal airforce

I think Rafale has clear advantage and IMHO it will win.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 29 Apr 2011 00:04

aditya.agd wrote:Pros for EF:
2. Smallest radar cross-section
3.

errr....... are you sure of this ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Apr 2011 00:06

hnair wrote:Geez, I cant afford a 2$ meal, but boy am I laughing

It ain't over Saar, till Amreeki says ok. That is the reality that MMS has come to believe. So don't keep your hopes up. I am distributing barfis, only after I see the first Rafale in IAF colours like this photoshopped one...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... le_IAF.jpg

manum wrote:has there been any competition where khan planes have been involved with others and they haven't won it...or get a separate deal? If no...then these results are gonna stung hard...and should be heard like a gong, go to hell...

From recent memory, they have won every fighter contract out there. It is a hard sting alright. But they can sting back equally hard. The F-16IN could very well become F-16PN, just so that there is parity. They are begging for additional F-Solah as baksheesh and a Block 70, APG-80 AESA radar would be a potent addition to their fleet.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 29 Apr 2011 00:07

Bharadwaj wrote:errr....... are you sure of this ?

Check on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 29 Apr 2011 00:15

aditya.agd wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:errr....... are you sure of this ?
Check on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

Not exactly a gold standard source is it?.
Edit: Really difficult to locate any reliable source for rcs of any aircraft but an active cancellation development was in place on the rafale- no recent news on it.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 29 Apr 2011 00:19

aditya.agd wrote:
Pros for EF:
1. Consortium of friendly countries
2. Smallest radar cross-section
3. Reliable engines
4. Used by airforces of many countries

.

the biggest advantage is that the consortium has ITALY in it..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Apr 2011 00:20

Only Dassault, Eurofighter left in IAF fighter selection
by Ajai Shukla

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... on/433894/

Neither Dassault nor Eurofighter have been officially informed that they have been down-selected, or that they are the only two vendors remaining in contention. But both are assuming their aircraft met the IAF’s requirements during the technical evaluation and field trials.

“We’re not yet popping the champagne or handing out bonuses,” said an executive from one of the vendors still in contention. “We haven’t heard anything yet from the MoD, so any celebration would be premature.”

No Barfis YET!!!!

Indicating that Washington has not yet given up hope, US Ambassador Tim Roemer stated today, “I have been personally assured at the highest levels of the Indian government that the procurement process for this aircraft has been and will be transparent and fair. I am extremely confident that the Boeing F/A 18IN and Lockheed-Martin F-16IN would provide the IAF an unbeatable platform with proven technologies at a competitive price.”

That is why gloating is a waste of time...

In the next step in the MMRCA procurement, which is expected any day, the MoD will ask Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault for fresh commercial bids that will remain valid for the next two years. The two companies will also be asked to finalise their offset proposals. Then the commercial bids will be opened to decide the winner. Finally, an MoD-instituted cost negotiation committee will negotiate a final cost with the winning company.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 29 Apr 2011 00:23

jamwal wrote:Mig25 - Sonali Bendre
Mig 27 - Raveena Tandon
Mig 21 - Karishma Kapoor

:p

Mig 21 - Aruna Irani - Beautiful in yesteryears with a sharp bite. Now, ugly and still b!!!chy

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Apr 2011 00:27

rafale was the only contender who took RCS reduction into consideration from day 1. foe everyone else it was an afterthought with problems that go with it.

lastly, this should be taught along with nursery rhymes nowadays.

DO NOT BELIEVE everything you read on the net. esp if it is from wikipedia. particularly if it gives RCS figures without reliable references.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 29 Apr 2011 00:39

Rakesh wrote:Only Dassault, Eurofighter left in IAF fighter selection
by Ajai Shukla

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... on/433894/

Neither Dassault nor Eurofighter have been officially informed that they have been down-selected, or that they are the only two vendors remaining in contention. But both are assuming their aircraft met the IAF’s requirements during the technical evaluation and field trials.

“We’re not yet popping the champagne or handing out bonuses,” said an executive from one of the vendors still in contention. “We haven’t heard anything yet from the MoD, so any celebration would be premature.”
No Barfis YET!!!!

In the next step in the MMRCA procurement, which is expected any day, the MoD will ask Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault for fresh commercial bids that will remain valid for the next two years. The two companies will also be asked to finalise their offset proposals. Then the commercial bids will be opened to decide the winner. Finally, an MoD-instituted cost negotiation committee will negotiate a final cost with the winning company.

PTI reports are quoting MOD officials as saying that both Euro and Dassault have been asked to provide price extensions..... till December 31 and not two years as MR.Shukla is reporting.

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 65365.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Apr 2011 00:42

Check this out...

Air India’s Boeing buy forced: CAG
http://www.livemint.com/2011/04/2900492 ... buy-f.html

manum · Post by **manum** » 29 Apr 2011 00:43

Rakesh wrote: From recent memory, they have won every fighter contract out there. It is a hard sting alright. But they can sting back equally hard. The F-16IN could very well become F-16PN, just so that there is parity. They are begging for additional F-Solah as baksheesh and a Block 70, APG-80 AESA radar would be a potent addition to their fleet.

don't you think, that they anyway are going to do...arm every other nation with their equipments, so that enough balance is created...they still can not chuck Pakistan,and till they are together Pakistan will get goodies, why else it'll stick with USA.
they could attack, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and what not...but they couldn't attack Pakistan and kill the source of the evil...but did they do it,no...

now they are providing them, and till they are together pakistan will get its goodies, Don't you already think its to keep India in balance? and keep China in balance by India...This is so damn clear, this is why I am so happy about the signal MMRCA short listing has given...and if babu's have gone so far to give the signal...I am sure they'll do their best to protect the intention and not back track from it...

We can not really control what USA is going to do or not, It can leave Afghanistan just now and sell it to pakistan, what can we do about it, It can help China lift the embargo to sell C-130 or whatever, It can sanction us, and so on and on...and how can we stop it from doing it...
Either we lick and say yes sir...
or We can control our decisions, progress and might...and garner the well deserved respect...So i just dont care what unreliable USA can do, I only know what one billion Indians can achieve...and our top leaders must understand that potential, take every decision to lead us to self dependence to maximum extent...not a reverse engineered like china, to buy a dustbin culture from all of the world...

anyway...I need to get scientific with my talk or soon I'll get a warning...

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 29 Apr 2011 00:59

Rakesh wrote:Check this out...

Air India’s Boeing buy forced: CAG
http://www.livemint.com/2011/04/2900492 ... buy-f.html

If I remember correctly, the Europeans were crying foul for a while after that one. The 787 selection was bound to happen given that Airbus was competing with a warmed over a330 at that time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Apr 2011 01:32

Two important pieces of hardware that should be bought if Katrina is chosen;

Reco-NG AEREOS pod
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/avi ... m.html?L=1

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/02/ ... sight.html

Thalès Damocles LDP
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Case_Studies ... _DAMOCLES/

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2010/08/ ... afale.html

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 29 Apr 2011 01:53

Rakesh wrote:
hnair wrote:Geez, I cant afford a 2$ meal, but boy am I laughing
It ain't over Saar, till Amreeki says ok. That is the reality that MMS has come to believe. So don't keep your hopes up. I am distributing barfis, only after I see the first Rafale in IAF colours like this photoshopped one...

Of course, Rakesh-saar! As I mentioned in that same post, if khan calls "tsull!" or "bathroom break! Not ready!" to stop the process, I shall laugh again.... Nowadays, I laugh a lot holding just 2$. <giggity>

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Apr 2011 01:57

What is your secret saar? I have only $2 as well...but I am crying!!! I miss India so much

I need to go back. Somebody give me a job!!!

Although my naming convention will not help!

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Apr 2011 02:12

Rakesh wrote: F-18: Rakhi Sawant (was not named by me...but by another BRFite...but aptly fits)

That was me. Hey but I suspect that Rakhi might flash a thing or two at the last moment and MoD might fall for it.

Btw I can share the cost of mithais whenever we have a original West Coast meeting in Bombay.