Indian Army: News & Discussion

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GopiD
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by GopiD »

Since we are on the 1971 war topic, I hope the following article would help. :)

Three Indian blunders in the 1971 war

by Colonel Dr Anil Athale

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111212.htm
The move of USS Enterprise and American threats of retaliation as well as Russian caution possibly saved Pakistan.
India's three strategic blunders:

1. In 1971 India lost a golden opportunity to sever the Sino-Pak communications by land and threaten the Karakoram highway.

Kashmir was not an issue at all in that war.

Later at the Simla Peace Conference, India brought in the Kashmir issue. The conversion of the Cease Fire Line (agreed as per the Karachi agreement of 1949) was converted to the LOC or Line of Control, a sort of half-way house between the Cease Fire Line and the international border.

If India had plans to retain the captured territory in Jammu and Kashmir a major thrust towards Skardu or Gilgit could have threatened the land access between Pakistan and China.
The second blunder was the explicit recognition that India gave to the 'Kashmir dispute' in the Simla Agreement.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto came to Simla as the head of a defeated nation with nothing to bargain. 93,000 Pakistani prisoners were in India and the tehsil of Shakargarh as well as large tracts of desert were under Indian occupation.

The Pakistani State itself was tottering and the only card Bhutto had was to play on the Indian need to have a viable Pakistan survive. Using his weakness dexterously, Bhutto made sure that India could never drive a hard bargain.

All that Pakistan conceded at Simla was that it would not use force to solve the Kashmir problem and it would deal with the issue bilaterally. It is indeed astonishing that a militarily weak and defeated nation promising 'non use of force' against another country ten times its size, being seen as a concession.

The acceptance of the disputed status of Kashmir was a major diplomatic blunder and India continues to pay a heavy price for it. In the words of a sports commentator, India snatched diplomatic defeat from the jaws of victory.
Third and the greatest blunder was to let the Pakistani army get away with its 'genocide' in Bangladesh.

There is massive evidence of Pakistani army brutality in Bangladesh. The evidence is from Pakistani sources itself, the Justice Hamidur Rehman Commission Report. Some of the testimony in that report makes very chilling reading, even 40 years after the event.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

One aspect was Mrs G didn't want to convert the defeat of TSPA into enmity with the people.

There was the faint hope that the defeated ranks will turn on their bad leaders just as the Tsarist army ushered in the Russian Revolution.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:One aspect was Mrs G didn't want to convert the defeat of TSPA into enmity with the people.

There was the faint hope that the defeated ranks will turn on their bad leaders just as the Tsarist army ushered in the Russian Revolution.

She really really succeeded, didn't she?? :rotfl:

She simply should have kicked bhutto and all the other sweet folks in the land of the pure in their collective nuts and have been done with it. We will never get such an opportunity again.

Yet today, lo and behold, MMS and the WKK brigade is still trying to promote the very same cancerous and fallacious argument.

Will we never learn? We are truly masters at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, time and time again!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

^^ I remember reading the then foreign secretary's verbatim comments, (probably in Adm Hiranandani's book - dont remember source offhand)

1. Re-occupation of PoK was considered. However, the parts bordering Khyber Pakhtunwala was heavily Islamicized and densely populated for effective control. The sparsely populated parts like Skardu and Baltistan were considered, however were considered time & effort consuming.

2. India had international support on the Bangladesh humanitarian issue. Even the Russians wouldnt have been supportive for any PoK ops. (OT-Just before the war, Russian had attempted to bring Pakistan into its sphere of influence by offering military hardware, including Osa boats, that Pakistanis rejected as short ranged. What an irony!)

3. India wanted to avoid Treaty of Versailles type humiliation of Pakistan, to avoid perpetual enmity.

4. Pakistan, the way it is, was seen as a buffer to insulate India from West Asian & Central Asian problems. At a strategic level, India still considers Pakistan as a buffer to WA & CA, and their associated problems. This is an important, though not often emphasized, factor in Indian thinking on Pakistan.

5. Military rule was seen as a bane of all troubles by blaming India for everything that went wrong in Pakistan. ZAB, despite his despotism in not letting MUR take over after winning the election, as seen as someone who could reform Pakistan. Again, point 4 was a factor here.

Today, Pakistan is like Nazi Germany. Their leaders over decades have brainwashed the population that external forces like India is the cause of all troubles. Like Nazis blamed Jews and Communists. Like German Army never lost WW1 and the politicians did - that was a lie, after losing, the German generals slinked away leaving the civilian leaders to clean the mess.

Pakistan needs a nation wide re-education akin to Germany after WW2. Unfortunately the US squandered that opportunity by diverting its attention to Iraq.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by VinayG »

daaaaaaaaaaaa i have been reading these conservations in BR since past 5 years popping up here and there we should have done this & that ( 1971 scenario ) the reality is that opportunity is long gone and dead just burry it and hope we dont repeat it again 8) 8)
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/Trans2Tr ... m[quote]Dr KB Lall, who was the Defence Secretary in 1971, recalls:"After Gen Niazi's surrender on 16 Dec, lengthy discussions were held in New Delhi regarding a unilateral cease fire. There were two schools of thought. One in favour of an immediate unilateral ceasefire. The other in favour of consolidating the gains made before declaring a unilateral ceasefire. I recall a discussion on whether the disintegration of West Pakistan was at all in India's interest. My view was and is that the disintegration of West Pakistan would only serve to bring the turmoil of Central Asia to our doorstep on the Punjab border. It was preferable by far to keep it further away on Pakistan's Western border".[/quote]
IMHO, that is the Indian raison d'être for the existence of Pakistan, and IMVHO, a very sound one.

If one reads the Battles in Medieval India thread, Airavat has posted a good account of Shah Jahan's Central Asia expeditions was enormously expensive in terms of men and material and yielded no strategic gains. Same for British expeditions to Afghanistan. Hence the buffer state of Pakistan, in my view, is a blessing in disguise.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

buffer state of Pakistan, is not a blessing in disguise but taken with what we got
There is no other choice but to have a dysfunctional state to keep thing inside
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

I kind of agree, iff TSP can itself be kept sane (reasonable level) and not a 24x7 threat. its the strategic depth for us.

but as of now the CAR states are stable, oil and gas rich and modernizing rapidly. only afghanistan, TSP and Xinjiang is a contiguous problem area.

I feel with TSP becoming china's cats paw against us, the strategic depth and central asia unstable model that was valid until 10 yrs ago has broken down. a stable pak is no longer in our interest unless we are able to co-opt their military and business elites into our economy and get them to control the street level jihadi rats - which is not happening.

if TSP were replaced with a warlord run emirate like afghanistan and nukes taken away for safety to china, we could atleast vent our anger by bombing them periodically though it would have no strategic impact on the internal situation there. we could pay off and bribe warlords like the americans do. we could set them at each others throats maybe.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by member_20292 »

Spoke to an army colonel uncle of mine. He said that stable Pakistan is in our interests.

I disagree. A stable Pakistan, like we had from 1975 till 2004 ish did a Khalistan and Kashmir on us.

It is in our total interests to ensure that Pakistan keeps boiling over, internally, to ensure that their focus cannot go to India in any manner.

Let them decide who is the purest, before talking to us at all.

We must support all the free Balochistan, free Karachi, free FATA movements.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

Singha wrote:but as of now the CAR states are stable, oil and gas rich and modernizing rapidly. only afghanistan, TSP and Xinjiang is a contiguous problem area.
Not quite, Uzbekistan is still dysfuctional and the rest are facing Saudi/Iran/Chinese/Russian & US meddling.
Acharya wrote:buffer state of Pakistan, is not a blessing in disguise but taken with what we got. There is no other choice but to have a dysfunctional state to keep thing inside
Let me rephrase my comments. A cesspit is a blessing in disguise because it keeps humans healthy by preventing shit from lying all over. If there is no naturally occuring one, we need to dig one, which is not easy in the geo-political sense.

We got one in 1947. Green Revolution, Industrial growth, and investment in education leading to IT spurt wouldnt have been possible if that money went in cleaning shit in the 50s, 60s & 70's instead.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by merlin »

tsarkar wrote: 3. India wanted to avoid Treaty of Versailles type humiliation of Pakistan, to avoid perpetual enmity.
We have succeeded in this in spades haven't we?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Prabu »

x posting

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Reason: Is this related to the Indian Army? Dont proliferate threads with non-relevant links
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

Gents, looking for the book "Sky is the limit" authored by Gen.Deva, which is about the role of Corps of Signals in Op.Pawan. Any idea where can we get the book from? (Especially which can be ordered online)
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Marut »

^ I bought the book from a jingo who got it from the Gen. Deva himself! It is a self published book hence you may have difficulties getting it outside. His contact details can be found here - http://www.ydeva.info/ Alternatively, if you are passing by maximum city or know someone who is, then I can loan you the book as well.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rahulm »

Sachin, I bought my copy from Gen. Deva himself. He was kind enough to sign it for me.

Last I know, Kapil may have a few copies for sale.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Marut »

Sachin, I purchased the book from rahulm onlee!

rahulm saar, any visits to the watering hole on our side of the jungle?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

Sachin

Got the book from the author himself. Also talk to him from time to time.

I really need a jingo to go and spend time with him.

rahul unfortunately was on short trips.

anyway - ping him and he will tell you the modalities to get the book.

Else ping me or rahul and we can get you in touch with him


PS: shame on you for waking up to this book so late :)
Last edited by Surya on 13 Dec 2011 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Marut »

Surya wrote:Sachin

Got the book from the author himself. Also talk to him from time to time.

I really need a jingo to go and spend time with him.

rahul unfortunately was on short trips.

anyway - ping him and he will tell you the modalities to get the book.

Else ping me or rahul and we can get you in touch with him
I may end up in Gurgaon next year and will be alone since SHQ will join after 5-6 months only. I maybe able to help you out with whatever you have in mind.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

Marut

Thanks - ping me a reminder.

Let me contact him and see what we can do.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Surya wrote:Marut

Thanks - ping me a reminder.

Let me contact him and see what we can do.
Err......I thought Gurgaon was millenium city???....Me also in Gurgaon, so please to let me know what needs to be done. I'll be more tham happy to meet the author and get the book. Will get the copy for meself also.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

if you do not stop spamming I am going to assume your account is hijacked and ban it.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by member_20069 »

Surya wrote:
Pakistan being shambles what else did we need to close Kashmir with Pakistan and set them right, once and for all
Lets stop these wet dreams.

Do you even understand the state of the economy in 71. The war had already cost us a fair amount. The Pakistanis in the West had not given up and more importantly their allies WERE not going to allow us to finish them.

If you look at how fierce and casualty prone the land battles were in the West you will understand how much more of a slog was left. Simply put we could not afford it - period.

its easy to have wet dreams of we could do this and that. We are not in a position to even do that now let alone in 71.
Surya, we don't even let them know our position forcefully, couldn't do then, can't do now for reasons galore. Going by what you say then we should be mute spectators and watch getting buggered all the time, allow them to implement the policy of 1000 year war and death by 1000 cuts, right? By the way I'm not the only who feels that way and certainly not the only one, who says that we shouldn't have allowed it to linger on to this day.

As I have mentioned earlier, hit them where it hurts them most, support Baluchistan to the hilt, formant trouble elsewhere in Pakistan, oppose them everywhere in international forms where they try and get dole and easy money to run their country. We just let them off the hook in EU tariff matter saving them millions if not billions, to be used against us some other time. Question, have we ever had any consistency in our approach towards them, only knee jerk reactions?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

sbhalla

all I am saying is lets not beat up on the people in power in 71 - for what you think they should have done.


Our situation was not good - economically\militarily etc

As for now and future - its a different story and different scenario although a lot of limitations remain
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by member_20069 »

Surya wrote:sbhalla

all I am saying is lets not beat up on the people in power in 71 - for what you think they should have done.


Our situation was not good - economically\militarily etc

As for now and future - its a different story and different scenario although a lot of limitations remain
Surya, it is just not 71, we have had inconsistent policy since inception or since the trouble started to brew with them. Have one policy and exploit it to the extent it makes sense, then make corrections if required. By not having consistent policy it only damages us more than even following a wrong policy. Also, see the line up of people who have been in power when dealing Pakistan, you name them and they have faultered. Pandit Ji 48, Indira Ji 71 ( I wouldn't say she faultered, but she left job incomplete), I.K Gujral Raw, Atal Ji, Lahore followed by Kargil, MMS Mush and the followed by Mumbai attack. See Pakistan in contrast they have only one policy which is harm us in any and every way. Shouldn't we base our policy, approach and responses based on this premise?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Marut »

Surya, I'll have clarity on job situation by month end, will keep you posted.

Rohit, I'm in maximum city currently but may end up in your neck of the woods - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1209729
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by shiv »

SBHALLA wrote: Also, see the line up of people who have been in power when dealing Pakistan, you name them and they have faultered. Pandit Ji 48, Indira Ji 71 ( I wouldn't say she faultered, but she left job incomplete), I.K Gujral Raw, Atal Ji, Lahore followed by Kargil, MMS Mush and the followed by Mumbai attack. See Pakistan in contrast they have only one policy which is harm us in any and every way. Shouldn't we base our policy, approach and responses based on this premise?
Bhallaji - please pardon me for being blunt pointing out something that I see in your post. I see this as a common stream of thought among a large number of Indians who spend a great deal of time analysing Indian history, looking backward in time and saying "He was wrong, he was also wrong and that other fellow also was wrong. All were wrong"

In your post above
1. India Gandhi - incomplete job/faltered
2. Gujral - RAW - wrong
3. Atal - Lahore/Kargil all wrong

You are yet another Indian who sees the history of his nation as all wrong. Nothing right. I find that an amazing Indian trait - looking back and wishing "If only my aunt had a di*k, she could have been my uncle". And there is a ready made example in every generation of aunts who did not become uncles.

But what I find particularly disagreeable is that you single out Pakistan for "praise" as having only one policy and demand that India, whose history you believe is all wrong should take Pakistan's example and have one policy. Having spent the better part of my life reading about Pakistan and the last decade writing about it also I find your ideas incomplete and not thought out completely, and ignorant to the extent that you have not said how Pakistanis policy has led to overall good for Pakistanis as a whole. You are making a light pencil sketch and saying 'Here is a complete empire". That is unconvincing and sounds like a needless rant of which I have read too many over the years. A rant comparing Pakistan only to show up India unfavorably and unreasonable. Pakistanis are doing that anyway. You too? Why?

Your own ideas reflect the incompleteness of the thoughts and actions of all the leaders you criticise. Those leaders were all Indians like you with the same human limitations and faults that you are putting on open display by your posts. Only you refuse to acknowledge that and are pointing out that past leaders were not superhuman, only human. But your insights are no better sir. I think you need to be realistic about yourself and others and not put yourself and past leaders in two different brackets. I see this need to critcise history and historic figures and yet not be able to rise above them in ability or ideas as a very Indian trait brought about by the very Indian education that we and our parents had. I am beginning to gain some insights into why Indians love to talk the way you have done, but there is another therd for tht.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Marut wrote:Surya, I'll have clarity on job situation by month end, will keep you posted.

Rohit, I'm in maximum city currently but may end up in your neck of the woods - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1209729
If you need any help, let me know.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

Surya wrote:anyway - ping him and he will tell you the modalities to get the book.
Else ping me or rahul and we can get you in touch with him
I tried sending him an e-mail, it bounced back because the mail box was full. The other option was to send a snail mail or call him up. But if you have any faster means do let me know please. I can be reached at sachin-at-br.com ID.
PS: shame on you for waking up to this book so late :)
It is me getting my Amateur Radio Op. license which rekindled my interest in the book. The LTTE chaps freaked out on Amateur Radio bands ;).
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Sachin wrote:
Surya wrote:anyway - ping him and he will tell you the modalities to get the book.
Else ping me or rahul and we can get you in touch with him
I tried sending him an e-mail, it bounced back because the mail box was full. The other option was to send a snail mail or call him up. But if you have any faster means do let me know please. I can be reached at sachin-at-br.com ID.
PS: shame on you for waking up to this book so late :)
It is me getting my Amateur Radio Op. license which rekindled my interest in the book. The LTTE chaps freaked out on Amateur Radio bands ;).
Sachin, if the author is based in Gurgaon, I can pick it up for you and send the same across through courier.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

rohitvats wrote:Sachin, if the author is based in Gurgaon, I can pick it up for you and send the same across through courier.
The address mentioned at http://www.ydeva.info is
Maj Gen Yashwant Deva, AVSM (Retd)
Operation Pawan Veterans,
1115 Sector A, Pocket A,
Vasant Kunj,
New Delhi - 110070 (India)

So looks like it is in New Delhi :(. Would try on the phone numbers or drop a snail mail. Thanks for the help :)
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by aditp »

Law ministry rejects Gen Singh's dob claim. Gen may take recourse to armed forces tribunal. - Toilet paper print edition.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by merlin »

aditp wrote:Law ministry rejects Gen Singh's dob claim. Gen may take recourse to armed forces tribunal. - Toilet paper print edition.
I hope he does and also files a suit in the court if the tribunal doesn't agree with him.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by karan_mc »

Polaris Industris receives first order for Indian Army

Image

Recently i took a test ride in my city, of newly opened Polaris Dealer , they are mean machines and cost as much as a small car . after test ride i was wondering why don't Indian army buys them , its great for few men patrols and even for special operations , good choice
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Just check their India website. There are different types of vehicles listed under the Polaris Defence sub-section. But anyhow, apart from border patrols, something like above should allow SF to really operate like SF in deep recon missions.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

BTW, the pic shown is of Garud Commando during Ex Red Flag 2008.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

sigh you evil people

don't you have any feelings for Philip saar

now he will go into another Captain Haddockian fit about a US product being bought MMS govt.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

From the BRF News Section:

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=17013
But the real military marvel was tucked under camouflaged nets 25 km away: the Joint Operations and Information Room (JOIR). Linked to a standalone server and an array of antennae, the JOIR, set up by the army’s 21 Corps, is the first practical application of network-centric warfare (NCW) at the corps level in India.
The JOIR looks like a high-tech set from a Bond movie. It comprises four shipping containers that could be assembled anywhere in two hours flat. Multiple screens line the walls and officers shuttle between maps and workstations. Each station was responsible for a separate set of information. Some access real-time intelligence reports from UAVs, direct satellite feeds for the first time (a separate military satellite is in the pipeline), special forces, radars and enemy intercepts. Another station maintains a constant link with the IAF. Others look at supplies, artillery and enemy degradation. A data wall allows the commanders to view information as and when required, as well as stay in touch with different headquarters and centres simultaneously. The biggest breakthrough is a constantly updated map, with red and blue dots denoting enemy positions — movement and our responses.
To prevent an information overload, data is screened at a Unit, Brigade and Division level before being forwarded to the Corps level. The apex body will remain the Corps and each system will not overlap. “We have opted not to follow the networks-of-networks system. Soldiers out on the field have only a one-to-one link with their respective command centre, they are not connected to the entire network,” explains a senior officer. “Say five soldiers are behind enemy lines, one is captured and is unable to access the kill switch on the radio. The enemy will not be able to tap into the NCWsystem as the soldiers radio set is not connected to the entire system. They provide information up the channel, which is processed on a need-to-know basis. Our system will recognise the change in voice signature and modulation and we will cut off that particular set.”
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Sanjay »

Rohitvats, can you tell me anything regarding reserve service liability in the Indian army ? For what period are ex-servicemen liable and is there any refresher training ?

I mean theoretically, the GoI can call up everyone under 50 but what is the formal liability ? Thanks.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Sanjay wrote:Rohitvats, can you tell me anything regarding reserve service liability in the Indian army ? For what period are ex-servicemen liable and is there any refresher training ?

I mean theoretically, the GoI can call up everyone under 50 but what is the formal liability ? Thanks.
Sanjay, from here: http://delhicourts.nic.in/nov/5580.htm
The petitioner was enrolled in the Indian Army on 28th June, 1963 with the terms of engagement requiring him to complete 10 years of service in colour and the remaining 10 years in reserve service. On 24th July, 1974 the petitioner was transferred to the reserve establishment. In the aforesaid manner, the petitioner was called for and he attended biennial reservist training. On 20th January, 1978 the petitioner was again called for biennial reservist training for the period from 5th June, 1978 to 2nd July, 1978 by the O.C. Reservist, by sending a registered letter to the petitioner on 20th January, 1978. The petitioner, however, failed to attend the said training. On 16th May, 1978 again another registered letter was issued to the petitioner by the O.C. Reservist Establishment directing the petitioner to report for training on 19th June, 1978. The petitioner also did not report and did not attend the aforesaid training. On the failure of the petitioner to report for training he was declared a deserter as he absented himself from training without leave.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by nelson »

^^
Currently reserve liability varies with rank and trade. for example...
Officers with permanent commission have two years of reserve liability from date of retirement.
JCOs have five years of reserve liability from date of retirement or 54 years of age whichever is earlier.
NCOs have two years of reserve liability from date of retirement or 49 years of age whichever is earlier.
Other Ranks in skilled trades have three years reserve liability or 48 years of age whichever is earlier. Other Ranks in GD and certain other non-skilled trades have two years reserve liability or 42 years of age whichever is earlier.
Locked