Indian Army Cheetah Chopper enters Pakistan airspace

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Oct 2011 06:03

Rahul, There is a report that the four officers were grounded by IAF. Lets see.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Oct 2011 06:08

is it the same report ?

edit : okay, it's a paki report. even if there was nothing untoward the officers would be questioned by MI and possibly R&AW.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 25 Oct 2011 06:37

x-posting...

A Sharma wrote:
Acharya wrote:IAF grounds four officers for violating Pak airspace‎
The News International - 1 hour ago
ISLAMABAD: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has grounded all its four officers who deified Pakistan airspace on their military chopper and landed in Pak
Isnt the Army aviation choppers piloted by armymen. So why would IAF ground them and also why the technician?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 25 Oct 2011 08:56

ramana wrote:Rahul, There is a report that the four officers were grounded by IAF. Lets see.

If it is an error they will be allowed to carry on their duties after the investigation. If they get suspended,well, then there is something which dos not meet our eye. May be an unsanctioned IA operation to survey PLA presence in PoK.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 25 Oct 2011 09:28

why suspend the 2 non-pilots?

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 25 Oct 2011 09:37

Apparently the cheetal incident happened because they were going in to rescue another chopper which was downed due to mechanical failure. Any news on what happened to that chopper?

also i read in a newspaper that there was a similar incident in 2007 where a pilot was shot or something can someone tell me about that?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 25 Oct 2011 10:22

abhinavjo wrote:Apparently the cheetal incident happened because they were going in to rescue another chopper which was downed due to mechanical failure. Any news on what happened to that chopper?

It wasn't downed. That chopper was a Dhruv which developed a snag and didn't fly. It was supposed to carry a Lt Gen.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 25 Oct 2011 12:00

Singha wrote: some of the stuff being talked about for fleetwide helicopter updates like moving map displays will finally close the gaping holes like this. Dhruv would be having this by default.

Buy them MapmyIndia GPS navigators!!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Oct 2011 12:14

Altair wrote:
ramana wrote:Rahul, There is a report that the four officers were grounded by IAF. Lets see.
If it is an error they will be allowed to carry on their duties after the investigation. If they get suspended,well, then there is something which dos not meet our eye. May be an unsanctioned IA operation to survey PLA presence in PoK.

Before we move too much remember this suspension thing is there only in a Paki paper, Paki media in my opion does not hold much credidibility. So lets wait for the Indian version of events.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2011 12:15

I wonder if the pilots are trained for such contingency event like when forced landing in enemy airfield they should take precautionary measures like deleting/formating their GPS system or the co-ordinates and other sensitive data of airfields they might have stored in there or other equipment they carry. Should be pretty much SOP.

I dont think the loss of airfield co-ordinates names etc is a big intel boon for them but its just one more independent datapoint to rely upon , besides the stuff they might already know or have and unexpected bonanza like leaked tender information.

I recollect reading the P-3C incident when PLAAF force landed the aircraft the first step the crew took was to destroy as much data as possible from sensitive equipment so all that you are left with is some dumb hardware or least intel is leaked.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Oct 2011 12:16

see pgbhat's post above. IAF suspended IAF officers for violation by IA ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2011 12:36

Rahul M wrote:see pgbhat's post above. IAF suspended IAF officers for violation by IA ?

I would think temporary suspension of officers involved directly or indirectly in this event both IA or IAF would be a normal thing and along expected lines , they would be throughly investigated by Mil Intel before getting reinstated.

In the past i have read many news of aircraft/choppers getting strayed on either side , its good the pilot had the presence of mind and landed it , instead of trying to get away which probably would have led to loss of life in any shoot out.

For any other neighboring country this would have been a event of navigation failure for indo-pak this gets highlighted.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Oct 2011 14:54

you completely missed the point. a paki source is reporting that 4 IAF officers have been suspended when the service involved is IA. that should raise red flags about the validity of the news, not whether or not that is justified.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Oct 2011 15:14

almost all the talk on this incident has been from paqui sources...

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 25 Oct 2011 18:32

Pak took security data from the Army chopper

Indian security has been breached in the sensitive Siachen Glacier-Aksai Chin-Ladakh-Kargil sector as Pakistan Army downloaded the GPS coordinates of all helipads from the army helicopter that strayed across the Line of Control (LoC) into Skardu region on Sunday morning. The Indian Cheetah helicopter along with the crew was allowed to return by Pakistan government later in the day.

Top government sources said the incident was being probed at a high level as the GPS data of the helicopter was found wiped out along with nicknames and code signs of all the helipads in the 14 Corps area.

The Nemu, Leh-based 14 Corps is responsible for defence of Kargil-Leh, Siachen Glacier and Line of Actual Control (LAC) with Tibet.

“We are treating the incident with utmost concern as coordinates of all helipads in the 14 Corps including Siachen Glacier and LAC are now with Pakistan army with code signs and nicknames,” said a senior official.

Senior officials said the Indian crew was being questioned as the Cheetah was fitted with the GPS and there was no reason for the machine to stray into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).

To add insult to injury, the Pakistan artillery helipad (with number 90), on which the Cheetah landed in the Marol area just across the LoC in Kargil sector was not known to the Indian Army. The Pakistan army allowed the chopper to return to Kargil after refuelling the machine and giving directions to pilots.

While Pakistan now says its fighter jet forced the Indian helicopter to land across the LoC, prima facie evidence reveals that the Indian pilot didn’t know where he had landed the helicopter due to bad weather conditions nor the Pakistan army had any clue about the landing.

Sources said 14 Corps commander Lt Gen Ravi Dastane was visiting an Indian position on Sunday morning ahead of Kargil when his advanced light helicopter (ALH) helicopter developed a snag and was grounded.

While another machine landed and flew Dastane to Srinagar, the Cheetah with a maintenance engineer was flown to the post to bring back the ALH after repairs.
It was during this maintenance mission that the Cheetah flew into bad weather and without the pilot realising it crossed the LoC into Pakistan territory of Marol, just across the Kargil town.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Oct 2011 19:30

Can someone create a time line from the above facts for this is good case to study?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Oct 2011 22:46

all said and done, two glaring loopholes coherently exists from tech-security speak.

1. The copters GPS was not used or failed [or was the GPS jammed by unkil-men team?].

2. The pakis had no warning on their radars that an enemy helo was approaching.. and no interception happened as well.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 26 Oct 2011 07:23

US helped India secure release of army chopper: Sources
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/us-h ... 57501.html

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 26 Oct 2011 08:01

BRF news feed
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=16266

Helicopter straying into PoK

Army will change codes of helipads, call signs in Ladakh
Ajay Banerjee/TNS

New Delhi October 25
Two days after an Army helicopter strayed into Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) after crossing the Line of Control (LoC) in the Drass sector, the code names of the helipads that dot the Himalayas in Ladakh will be changed along with the calls signs of the pilots of the Army Aviation Corps operating in that militarily sensitive mountainous region.

The process has started and will be completed over the next couple of days. Sources said the move has been initiated after it was suspected that Pakistan authorities, who questioned the four Army personnel during their stay in the PoK, had read the global positioning system aboard the copter to establish whether or not the Indian crew was speaking the truth.

Indian authorities had said the helicopter carrying two pilots, an engineer and a Junior Commissioned Officer had strayed into PoK airspace due to inclement weather conditions.

The LoC in the Drass-Kragil sector runs across a ridgeline that has an average height of 11,000 feet. The incident occurred around 1.20 pm on Sunday and the Indian crew was released four hours later following intervention from the Directors General of Military Operations and senior diplomats on both sides.

It was but quite obvious that Pakistan authorities, after quizzing the Indian crew, studied the GPS to establish whether or not they were speaking the truth, admitted a functionary. However, he added that there was no major cause for alarm. All that needs to be done is to change the code names of helipads and call signs of pilots, he added.

The process of changing call signs of pilots is a continuous one and at times these are normally changed once a week. An official explained the codes of helipads are not by the name of the place. For example, a helipad in Drass will not necessarily be called Drass. It could be identified by just a number or even a alpha-numeric code.

The Cheetah does not have any other guiding system for the pilots like an international navigation system (INS) or an electronic command and control suite.

The copter that strayed into the PoK had a GPS system on-board which records its movement and on a prompt from the pilot, displays the coordinates and code names of the helipads in the vicinity. This information is recorded on the hard drive of the GPS.

Army sources, however, down played the apprehension that Pakistan would now be able to read the coordinates of India’s helipads.

Phew.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Oct 2011 08:18

What is international navigation system another DDM ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Oct 2011 08:22

He means Inertial Navigation system (INS) for the Cheetah.

Thats OK. He has covered the basic story quite clearly.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Oct 2011 09:25

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 488577.cms

'No sensitive material on chopper that strayed into Pakistan'

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Oct 2011 09:30

^^ Thanks heavens a Dhruv didnt stray across!!!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Oct 2011 14:03

we can't help keeping on spinning our wheels on this can we?
bad weather, high mountains, limited places to land, thinnest of opertional margins on equipment due to altitude
in an emergency where the pilot has to decide quickly whether to land in the nearest flat spot he can see or crash into the mountain and die, there are few options
and again, due to the harsh terrain, it is unclear in many instances where the LOC actually lies, and even if the GPS was pointing it out, it may not be exactly clear to a human looking down on it.
almost everything else written about this story is hype and ignorance

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 26 Oct 2011 14:18

What surprises me is that we DO NOT know that there is a helipad 20 KM on the other side of the LOC. Do we not monitor activities across LOC? How can we miss such a launch point?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Oct 2011 14:20

doesnt surprise me in the least, in steep mountain areas, it is not possible to know what lies 10m away horizontally (but maybe 1000m away vertically)

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 26 Oct 2011 14:53

Lalmohan wrote:doesnt surprise me in the least, in steep mountain areas, it is not possible to know what lies 10m away horizontally (but maybe 1000m away vertically)

I thought we have 1 square meter resolution satellite recon of the LOC? We have satellites to monitor these activities. What if they launch a barage of Hatf IX Nasr very close to LOC on our positions. Is it not a threat? I thought we monitor entire LOC atleast 50 KM deep into enemy territory.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Oct 2011 15:06

^^^Can we stop making mountains out of molehills? What do you think a helipad is? Some super-duper structure? At best, in these areas, it a leveled ground in a favorable - read relatively flat- area, with ease of ingress and egress for the choppers. Invariably, it means that the same is located in some large village in one of the valleys. The whole area (flat land) can be used as helipad - in this case, a portion would have been marked and reserved. And btw, if the village is big enough and suitably located, the same area would also house the main administrative hub for the region. In case of a shooting match, the area will come under shelling from our side.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Oct 2011 16:44

^^^ you mean it doesn't look like Thunderbird 2 launch site?!??!

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 26 Oct 2011 20:12

rohitvats wrote:^^^Can we stop making mountains out of molehills? What do you think a helipad is? Some super-duper structure? At best, in these areas, it a leveled ground in a favorable - read relatively flat- area, with ease of ingress and egress for the choppers. Invariably, it means that the same is located in some large village in one of the valleys. The whole area (flat land) can be used as helipad - in this case, a portion would have been marked and reserved. And btw, if the village is big enough and suitably located, the same area would also house the main administrative hub for the region. In case of a shooting match, the area will come under shelling from our side.

Totally agree.. folks just think way too much ..very similar across all professional areas.. folks at 60,000 feet level has no clue of ground realities and just make decisions and opinions based on marketing brochures and Harvard Business Reviews lolz

Will · Post by **Will** » 26 Oct 2011 21:12

Sources said 14 Corps commander Lt Gen Ravi Dastane was visiting an Indian position on Sunday morning ahead of Kargil when his advanced light helicopter (ALH) helicopter developed a snag and was grounded.

While another machine landed and flew Dastane to Srinagar, the Cheetah with a maintenance engineer was flown to the post to bring back the ALH after repairs.
It was during this maintenance mission that the Cheetah flew into bad weather and without the pilot realising it crossed the LoC into Pakistan territory of Marol, just across the Kargil town.

Thank heavens it was not the chopper carrying the corps commander that landed in Pakistan. The shit would surely have hit the fan then

Ramin · Post by **Ramin** » 27 Oct 2011 05:55

<del>

Ramin · Post by **Ramin** » 27 Oct 2011 05:58

SaiK wrote:all said and done, two glaring loopholes coherently exists from tech-security speak.

1. The copters GPS was not used or failed [or was the GPS jammed by unkil-men team?].

2. The pakis had no warning on their radars that an enemy helo was approaching.. and no interception happened as well.

from what i've read (even in indian sources) 2 PAF aircrafts were deployed and established visual/radio contact

they also warned the Cheetah not to leave their airspace. I could be wrong though

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Oct 2011 06:00

Ramin wrote:
SaiK wrote:all said and done, two glaring loopholes coherently exists from tech-security speak.

1. The copters GPS was not used or failed [or was the GPS jammed by unkil-men team?].

2. The pakis had no warning on their radars that an enemy helo was approaching.. and no interception happened as well.
from what i've read (even in indian sources) 2 PAF aircrafts were deployed and established visual/radio contact

they also warned the Cheetah not to leave their airspace. I could be wrong though

what kind of Indian sources? press?

saip · Post by **saip** » 27 Oct 2011 06:03

What Indian sources, official or unofficial? Do you have any links? Were they quoting Pakistani sources? I have not seen any Indian official accounts which said the Heli was forced to land. All they were saying was that 'it strayed' across the LOC in bad weather. Only Pakistani sources and Indian sources quoting Pakistani sources are saying the heli was forced to land.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Oct 2011 06:04

Also I am curious .. given the nature of the terrain and weather up there.. and without GPS during 70s and 80s this did not happen... from either sides.. how did we manage to pull this off now? .. don't we have radio contacts with any airborne aircraft's all the time and monitor their movements?

saip · Post by **saip** » 27 Oct 2011 06:11

What I think happened was after the heli took off it encountered bad weather ('white out conditions') and as it has only a 'rudimentary hand held GPS' it strayed across the LOC and when the pilot(s) saw a helipad they decided to land and were approached by Paki rangers who were close by. Scrambling of fighters and djinnis and all fake claim by Pakis to save their H&D just for consumption of local abduls especially considering the hit their H&D took after Abbotabd raid and the claim by our Army chief (?) that India too can launch such a raid.

Anyway let us wait for the Indian official report when it comes after the debriefing of the Pilots.

saip · Post by **saip** » 27 Oct 2011 06:12

prithvi wrote:Also I am curious .. given the nature of the terrain and weather up there.. and without GPS during 70s and 80s this did not happen... from either sides.. how did we manage to pull this off now? .. don't we have radio contacts with any airborne aircraft's all the time and monitor their movements?

Probably at that time we were only flying in fair weather?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Oct 2011 06:15

[OT]

I am not a big fan of hindi movies .. and especially Sharukh Khan.. but was the movie Veer-Zara story line based on an Indian pilot trapped behind enemy lines falling in love with a pakistani chick?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 Oct 2011 06:19

saip wrote:
prithvi wrote:Also I am curious .. given the nature of the terrain and weather up there.. and without GPS during 70s and 80s this did not happen... from either sides.. how did we manage to pull this off now? .. don't we have radio contacts with any airborne aircraft's all the time and monitor their movements?
Probably at that time we were only flying in fair weather?

based on my experiences of trekking in himalayas ...any altitude above 4000m in mountain range... .. the weather moves in very quick.. with micro-bursts being the biggest danger.. .. it is virtually impossible to predict the weather pattern there because of so many variables.. still incredible no incursions happened when the technology was so rudimentary and flying was done only through visuals .... (key peaks, rivers and valleys.. ).. ...

may be someday we will have a simulator simulating the terrains of that region.. if we don't have it already.... we need highly accurate GIS for that.. ... with all the cartographic satellites we are sending up there.. there should be some outcome soon..