Bharat Rakshak

There is nothing "heavy" about the Apache's firepower that should upset the netas' fine humanitarian sensibilities. Automatic grenade launchers and rocket-propelled tank busters are common on COIN missions. All the Apache will do is place those munitions with extreme accuracy in any kind of weather, day or night, reducing collateral damage and unescessary casualties. There is an outside chance that they can stop infiltration in its tracks and that is an outcome that will justify the perceived costs. We don't need 44 or even 22 Apaches to do this--3 or 4 Longbow equipped helos should be more than enough. The rest can sit and gather dust in hangers, waiting for the chinese and paki tank columns.

Airpower is considered escalatory and effects are considered heavy. Its true that a dozen AGL rounds plus a couple more Carl Gustaf rounds may cause similar damage or even more than a single precisely aimed Hellfire in terms of perception (though latter will carry more HE still) - depends on the situation I guess, but bottomline is that airpower is seen as escalatory by the powers that be. Remember, even at Kargil IAF had to await GOI permission to get involved, and the recent hue and cry over IAF helicopters being allowed to fire back in self defense against Maoists.

Of course, most of the weapons employed by existing helicopters (bar SACLOS ATGMs) are area weapons or not so precise, that could contribute in part to the IAF itself being risk averse in using these systems in urban terrain. Now things could change. The Israelis have long been using their Apaches and US made weapons though in urban terrain. However, in isolated areas, even rocket pods should not be a problem at all.

The latest advances have been very specific to urban warfare. Even with tanks - DTI had a very nice article about it about a yera ago. In fact, LM has designed a "13 Lb" bomb (could never figure why 13, 10 or 15 Lbs - a nice round number? no, 13 it is) for light UAVs for urban warfare. Recall in shells. Etc, etc, etc.

I am not sure where you detected the disagreement. I cannot recall having said that they would not be useful. If you can kill a tank at 8 km, you can kill a man. Using Hellfires if need be.

All I am saying is that I am willing to bet my left testimonial that they will not be inducted with that purpose in mind.

Every news item you read is from the Army saying that they have infiltration pretty much under control and here you have the Air Force getting Apaches and every one is saying "Infiltrators! Infiltrators!". I think that is wrong. They are not going to be used for infiltrators. I repeat that I will humbly bow my head in shame if they are, but I am confident that they have not been acquired for that. The discussion in my view is pointless.

The max operating height is 21k'. Do we see any issues with this especially for a-chin area?

The Longbow radar is,ultimately a radar. It has some capabilities and it likely has some weaknesses and some ECM to counter those weaknesses. If I was a Paki or Chinese who wanted to figure out the capabilities of that radar I would love to have an Apache circling about maybe within sight or within 5-10 km using its radar so I can use passive sensors to monitor what it is doing. It may be a low probability of intercept radar, but if I can monitor it silently I will get a better idea.

What would I do?

I would pick up starving Pakjabi kids, train them for jihad and send them just across the LoC into India and keep my sensors ready. If I sent 100 such men - maybe 80 are killed the LoC. 15 are killed in firefights and 5 get away, to hide in the mountains and forests where I have told them to hide. If the sucker Indians keep using their Longbow at the border for me to monitor, me and my tarrel deepel pals will son have the Longbow sussed out.

er, the longbow radar is used to detect metal objects like tanks, for people hunting its totally passive thermals.
the radar is a pencil beam that sweeps back and forth.

the pakis could have done what you suggested in afghanistan already, and passed it on to tall fliends. they dont need to do it for LOC.

I will take that with a large bag of salt. expect the apache to carry *nothing* when it is at 21k.
the version with the earlier engines had trouble *crossing* 17,000 feet with reduced load during operation anaconda. I am sceptical a 6% improvement in power would suddenly make it a full fledged fighting machine at 21k.

at higher altitudes it will still be the LCH.

Karan, you seem to be confused on what I was saying. First of all, people were talking about using Apaches for checking infiltration, ie border patrol. Apaches wont be stationed near the border and there will only be (at current count) some 44 apaches.
Apaches flying hundreds of kilometres everyday for patrolling the border is unrealistic.

What they could be used for is certain COIN ops where there is already intel on terrorist locations and thus support in rooting them out. Though to be used for that, as you have rightly said, it would require political will and approval.

Correct me if I am wrong: I reckon the LCH and Rudra's will see more action in COIN ops as army wont need permission for using its air assets offensively. Apaches being under IAF, will require additional approvals.

bringing that article to further discussion here: so, for people hunting there is only 12 there. am I right?

and I do feel, for mountains, we need an LCH specially tailored to our use, and we could still put many of the apache features into it.

The BFR-SR is a people radar. If the Longbow can't do that it would be a shame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEL_Battle ... ance_Radar


If the pencil beam can be detected in the Af Pak border it can be detected in the LoC. If they have not picked it up in Af Pak they will definitely try at the LoC. In fact keeping 10 armed men waiting just on the Pak side of the LoC would be a great way to ask for a beam to illuminate them. The thermal imager is passive, but the Apache is totally unstealthy and noisy - and up in the mountains will be heard from 5-6 km away. 5-6 km is too far for guns, and unless they use Hellphyr that Apache is not going to be useful. The men will take cover the minute they hear a helo and in the Kashmir mountains there are no shortage of places to hide. I don't think an Apache that picks up traffic in a road in Yamerika is comparable to picking up men hiding in caves in mountain forests.

I doubt Longbow can detect a crawling , standing or running humans like a BSR could , Radar can detect every thing that gets reflected by the object it would boil down to processing those raw rf returns and what you want to filter.

Longbow radar are optimised to detect tanks and similar military objects like LAV and possibly UAV but not humans , else these would end up cluttering every thing and every body that has RF returns , Object below certain speed will automatically get filtered out.

Also i agree using Apache to take out infiltrators is simply wishful thinking in most circumstances , after all in how many anti-infiltrator operation in past 2 decades have we used gunship although the Mi-35 with Israel upgrade are quite capable to hunt humans in day and night using EO but has never been used AFAIK in that role.

This helecopter will be a quantum jump in technology for the users. It follows the other acquisitions from the USA -Globemaster and the C-130J. According to some media reports, India has not been provded with certain advanced accessories as it has not signed the end users clause of the agreement on US dotted lines.
Even if that is true, the very fact that the USA is selling modern systems to India is a very welcome development. Since the end of the cold war, it took almost two decades for the USA to finally agree to sale India military hardware.It signifies the change in the thinking at Pantagon about India. The other important point that needs to be taken note of is that these defence deals will not go down well in Pakistan and may further strained relations between Pakistan and the United States.It strongly indicates that USA is keep to come more closer to India.

We can't wait for a few more years until the LCH is perfected and for it to arrive in decent numbers mid-decade.Unlike the C-17 requirement,the need for attack helos is now,with Pak having superior attack helos and the new dual threat from China.The very fact that we almost doubled the original MI-17 order,and these will be armed as well,indiactes the burgeoning need for more helos on all fronts for the IA. A high-low mix of heavy and light armed helos and even armed very light helos,will provide the IA with a variety of rotorcraft for its range of ops.The only innovative feature missing with the Apache vs the Russian helo was the additional compartment for rescuing downed airmen,2-3 individuals.The problem with the armed forces-as Sandeep's article in I-Today,about the army's poor condition,is that decisionmaking takes about "7years" for any major acquisition.The utter dereliction of duty by MMS of gthe nation's security both internal and external,has made it neccessary for these $50B acquisitioins from abroad.The pressure of strangualtion of India by the dragon has been increasing with intensity by the day and a quick induction of Apaches will help stem the tide.

if the apache can fly without external stores at 20,000ft it will be able to self-deploy from Leh / Manali onward by flying over the passes like Khardung La and Chang La following the roads which I think max out around 18,000ft . munitions, fuel and spares for the Fwd ops base will either have to go by road or be flown to ALGs beyond the high passes like daulat beg oldie using AN32 and C130J.

that solves a big problem which is "get the dog into the fight"

likewise it should be able to make it upto north sikkim on its own power. the sikkimese passes are generally around 4000ft less than ladakh.

same should apply to Dhruv, LCH and WSI - deploy on own power but follow up on stores via road or airlifters.

Reposting:

A mini-documentary on Apaches:

Battle Stations - Apache Attack Helicopter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5UmgB7_ ... re=related

Even If I ignore the hyperbole, it still looks like a great machine.

At 27:16 the apache pilot explains how difficult it was to locate stationery men. He says "most of the times we were not able to find them, to be perfectly honest" and then "The best way to find them was to get them to move". So maybe its not so good at finding holed up militants.

>> Correct me if I am wrong: I reckon the LCH and Rudra's will see more action in COIN ops as army wont need permission for using its air assets offensively. Apaches being under IAF, will require additional approvals.

unlikely. IA already has used the armed lancers but discontinued after terrorists started targeting the helos. in any case India is highly reluctant to use air power on its own soil.

kesari, shocking and surprising it shall be.. and it is a reality, evidently from our past experiences.

Remember that chopper that was destroyed by the Americans during the Bin Laden episode? All that talk of a new secret stealth helicopter? Most probably it was one of the prototypes of the cancelled Commanche program.

It was.

Also, please note that the yankees keep fooling the world where the exotic and next generation technologies for the next 50 years ahead is used by special ops forces. They are directly funded and controlled by US prez, and do not have a constraint from regular mil c&c.

Companies including Boeing and LM work on secrete projects that will be only public after 50 years. They get special ops funding as well.

I think war is coming. Pakistan's pending victory in Afghanistan combined with its rapid US-funded military buildup since 2001, China's buildup of military infrastructure and offensive forces along the border, and the criminal neglect of our own armed forces during the same period... these factors all combine to create the perfect storm.

The balance of power has shifted; Pakistan will soon be in a position where they can unleash large-scale and blatant terror attacks all over India knowing full well that their armed forces can give us a serious bloody nose should we try to retaliate. Not only has our relative military edge eroded, but we now face a much bigger threat along the Chinese border as well. In the event of war, a huge chunk of our military capability must now be tied down facing the Chinese, meaning we have even less combat power to use against the Pakis. Unlike previous conflicts where we could relegate minimal forces to the Chinese border, we now face a very potent threat there. And we certainly wouldn't be getting any help from the broke and war-weary US.

I feel the Paki\Chinese generals are looking to pick a fight with India sometime in the next year or two. I hope I'm wrong because I don't see how we can undo so many years of neglect in such a short time, even if GOI were truly cognizant of the threat.

I really hope that I have missed an attempt at sarcasm here.

Any one feels here that a war between India against china and pakistan is so easy since all three are neuclear armed.

Instead of being such a cheeky ****, explain yourself. Are you predicting the US will win in Afghanistan, that Pakistan will not immediately take over the place once America withdraws in 2014? Do you deny that our armed forces have lost much of their relative edge over Pakistan in the last decade? Do you deny the Chinese are building a large road & rail network, along with a large buildup of offensive military forces, in the regions bordering India?

I'm curious, is your arrogance justified or do you simply have your head buried in the sand, in classic Indian fashion?

Sorry for getting OT; I know this thread is about Apaches not war scenarios. But I do feel this hasty decision to induct the Apaches, along with other recent hasty acquisitions, reflects some concern in high places. The fact is our relative military power vis-a-vis Pak & China has eroded significantly. After the US pulls out of Afghanistan, Pakistan will be needing a victory to reunite their divided country and recover lost H&D. China needs a victory to cement its new superpower status and silence domestic dissent. And with US-Pak relations declining, it's clear that Pakistan and China will be growing closer than ever as strategic partners. It makes sense they will jointly orchestrate a limited war with us, given they'd almost certainly win.

^^
I see, name calling and personal attacks. OK, you win and don't expect any more replies from me. Anyway, what's the point? We arrogant cheeky **** Indians are doomed in any case, so we might as well accept defeat in the mighty internet battles to get into habit. I pity members like rohitvats who continuously give their silly little reasoning and figures in China thread. Who are we kidding, its all futile. Might as well accept defeat and request China and Pakistan to make India their dominion. Out defeat is inevitable anyway, so might as well avoid the bloodshed while we can.

interdicting forward area logistics.

The big lines of communication like vital bridges can be taken out with air strikes, but loitering hunters are ideal for ambushing smaller more fleeting targets of opportunity.

I don't know about India and China feelings, though the later show more belligerence than substance. India has substance but meek in strategic affairs.

Whereas on pakis I can always say they are ready to get destroyed.

Well I'm certainly not above admitting when I'm wrong, and I was wrong to engage in name calling. Fair enough.

However, I see nothing wrong with being realistic about the threats India faces. There is definitely a very strong "bury thy head in sand" philosophy prevalent in Indian affairs. But perhaps these recent hasty acquisitions at extremely high unit cost (overpriced AH-64's, used P-8I's for $250 million a pop, etc) indicate some last-minute scrambling to address the systemic neglect of the last decade. One can only hope...

I only wish our government hadn't so severely neglected defense for so long, as we're now in a position where our hasty attempts to acquire needed weapons are resulting in severe price-gouging from foreign suppliers.

>> but loitering hunters are ideal for ambushing smaller more fleeting targets of opportunity.

the 1st airborne found out to its cost that when apaches get too far ahead and try to be A-10 they get shot up. the idea of AH64s loitering deep behind strong enemy lines is a non-starter because any fighter once it sees them on radar can take them down easily from a distance.

they are best used as fastmoving mobile tanks packing a deadly punch of 16 hellfires, could also be used to lay anti-tank mines from the air - a trade in which NATO had a lot of capability in mid 80s (though we should rig the Mi17v for it).

Assuming that this is 100% correct, it is also true that it is OT for this thread which is specifically to talk about the Apache purchase rather than geopolitical issues regarding Pakistan, China, Afghanistan India and the USA

The points you have raised are interesting and debatable, but not on here please.

Hasty? They floated a tender in '08. Cancelled and refloated in '09 and we've come to a decision in '11. Most of the contenders pulled out at so there weren't even many choppers to evaluate anyway. Would you like all acquisitions to be like our arty process?

Used P-8I?

Arent we getting spanking new ones?

they will have 50 hrs on them for factory certification and the delivery flight - hence used

"...war is coming".The quote is pertinent,as many analysts have recently written that a '62 style situ is fast developing,with a leadership that has been for almost a decade cuckoo about security and even the phrase accurate or not, "Krishna Menon" situ with the PM,FM and DM allowing babudom to delay ,most urgent acqusiitions,like the artillery requirement for example.I have posted in the Paki thread the news that the Pakis are making huge increases in production of tactical N-weapons and delivery systems for the same,indicating,that they intend using them in a limited war scenario.The dragon-pig combine want to "teach India another lesson",as India's rapid growth has surpprised China and the world sees India as a democratic alternative to totalitarian China,a safer investment haven. AS the contradictions within China come to the fore,its economy will start to fall and to preempt such a flight of western capital,and safeguard its trade and energy supplies,it must neccessarily deliver the lesson to us asap.

Given the huge borders that we will have to defend,with the dragon-pig axis stretching our forces thin all along the frontline with real and fake thrusts into Indian territory,as Shiv soid,force-multiplying assets are the need of the moment.Rapid mobile forces able to sped to the battlezones are essential and to destroy enemy spearheds early before they can consolidate gains on the ground,hold them and win a moral and tactical "victory" before the inevitable cease-fire is imposed upon India,just as we saw in the Kashmir campaign and again in'62.We need at least 200 dedicated attack helos apart from other armed liight and medium utility helos.

actually, the Comanche is a two-man attack helicopter, while the military's postop report states that all of the personnel/supplies aboard the helicopter were mission-capable and intact. [thus, the helicopter that crashed obviously had more than two occupants]
plus, this is a pic of the tail rotor of the crashed helicopter


this is a pic of the Comanche's tail rotor (note the fact that it's completely enclosed)



the stealth helicopter in question was a stealth version of the UH-160 Blackhawk with (probably) less RCS and radar/IR ablative paint.

looks like it.. stealth blackhawk down!... now, a dozen of such helos could send pajama shiver to OBL loving fakies.