Bharat Rakshak

the training is likely to be long and hard given the complexity of the machine, in a movie I have seen pilots must compulsorily train with 'the hood' a black screen blacking out all their view and fly at night using instruments only...perhaps its done on simulators first and then on real machine. some wash out in that test.

we will likely need to embed some instructor pilots with a us army training unit for a while...

the upcoming LOH helis (200 units) would be the ideal spotter and recon asset. more than the heli the fleetwide datalink and comms is important.

even in civil light aircraft, pilots are asked to wear a "hood" for instrument training, basically its like blinkers - stops you looking outside at the horizon and forces eyes onto the instruments

^^^Saw a discovery channel program on Apache and it had training footage from US Army. What they did was to paste opaque panels on the cockpit panels - which basically meant that the pilot could not see outside. So, all the flying was with the help of instruments.

I believe we are getting all the Block III sensors which US armed forces Apaches are getting but without the sensitive communication equipment. So DRDO has to fit in our own comm packages and datalinks.

Would this be the first American "offensive weapons system" India is getting ever? In which case this is making history of sorts.

* The original process was cancelled and the new one - as one site article claimed - was rigged for this machine (Sank + Phillip can have a field day now : ) )
* These pups can be used - as some of the vids have shown - for more than chewing up armour. The same web site that claimed the RFP was rigged, was also very thrilled that these machines will now stop infiltration in J&K. ???? Will they be used for such a purpose? Dunno.

I have not seen any article - so far -claiming these to be Longbows. Are at least some of them Longbows. I do recall Boeing mentioning that they offered Longbows. Outisde of a mention the Hellfire Longbow, I have not seen any mention that the machine itself was of the Longbow variety.

On offensive weapons system - I am not sure, but how far back does one would like to go? BTW, the P-8I has those light torpedoes.

P-8I would be the first I believe..

afair, the number of longbow radars mentioned in a report few months back was less than number of helis. so it seemed a subset would be longbows.

I say if we are getting so few (less than holding of a single US army corps or 1st airborne), let us go 100% and "make it large" - all longbow onlee. crossbows and shortbows belong to the mediaeval times. longbow rules.

per ET article:
The Apache has the capability to detect 256 moving targets in speed, distance and direction and engage them as required.

Is it capable enough to attack high altitude positions in Kargil for example?

This is Awesome!

This comment best echoed my thoughts

That honour would go to the B-24 Liberator.

btw - has this news actually been confirmed by an Indian MOD/IAF or Boeing/US Gov. source?

Mihir, The B-24 were restored from stock that was scrapped in India. I met the guy who put them together in massa.

So not official sale or handover.

what about those 105mm recoilless guns mounted on jeeps? who made them?

They were US made. And later in OFB. Also 3.5" bazookas and equipment for 8 mountian divisions after 1962. I dont know if all were equipped or the supply got cut off after 1965.

KS garu wrote about the military liason group posted in early 60s in Delhi, to monitor the 'aid' to ensure it was PRC specific.

But recall 106mm recoiless guns wont let you take the war to the enemy., Good only for when the enemy comes in tanks! IOW they are defensive.

Its another thing CQMH Abdul Hamid got PVC for taking out four Pattons at Assal Uttar with the 106mm RCL.

Its the man not the gun.

Ramana, that is true. But it was still the first American offensive system in Indian service.

OT: There is an IAF B-24, donated by the Indian government, at Pima Air and Space Museum in Tucson, Arizona

as long as the gun is not more than a generation behind

>> Is it capable enough to attack high altitude positions in Kargil for example?

I think at hi alt like afghanistan they do not use the hover-n-creep mode but fast Mi35 style gun/rocket runs...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79CdqhTW ... re=related

afair they have been fitted with more powerful engines sometime in last few yrs , post 9-11 which permit better hovering and safety margins at hi alt

but creeping around is still done as in this video where a armed taliban foot column is taken out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1jD7v2ucBc

looking at it, if you dont expect to be fighting enemy mobile columns in the mountains, there is no need for longbow...the vanilla version is seen in afghanistan gun run video above. but for dual role between anti armour and anti personnel, then longbow is the insurance policy

and the hellfire is proven and deadly accurate as seen in the nightly work of the national bird. the hydra rockets are pretty nasty too. I would run with hellfire anyday over the new kit like PARS or lesser used kit like Spike. perhaps cost is the reason it was not invited to the tender?

Re: First American "offensive weapons system"-

Sikorsky Sea King ASW helos?

I thought all of our's were license built by Westland but per this Wiki page:
which are the ones that came with INS Jalashwa/Trenton. However, these should be the UH-3 cargo/utility version.

those came later with the trenton right?

We did not purchase those aircraft. Those were abandoned in India after the war. We fixed them and used them

We bought Westland Sea Kings

^^ this is the 6 second hand ex USN sea kings we bought with the trenton.

i don't really know - but I suspect they will work in Aksai Chin. I suspect that must have been the kind of thing the IAF would have factored in.

If you arrange the following list in order of what is offensive and what is not what arrangement would you make in order of deadliness/danger to an adversary. I have not listed it in my order - will do that later.

F-16
Tanks (eg Patton)
Orion
P-8
Sea King
Self propelled 155 mm Howitzer
Fire finder radar
AMRAAM
Apache
C-130

^^ True but there was a transfer of about 6 H-3 Sea King Helicopters along with the purchase of Trenton. And these were the utility versions not the ASW versions.. The ASW versions are from Westland..

PS: Rahulda beat me to it..

lot of assimilation ops needed to learn, and improve lch[sensors and mmw RFI radar]. now, we have an excellent platform to study now.

Folks - I don't believe that it is easy flying any aircraft or helo. But modern helos/aircraft are designed to reduce pilot workload and make his job easier. So I think he assumption that this Apache acquisition will lead to a long and hard struggle is myth making at its worst without any info. Indian pilots/ground engineers may take to it like a duck to water and may excel in it soon rather than what they have had to deal with in the past - like aircraft where they lose 4 liters in sweat before they take off and then do the work of 3 people in the cockpit.

The "work" may be in developing tactics to use it to its maximum potential.

Feeling a little concerned at the numberof US systems that we are buying. You know even our engines on the new boats are Lockheed Martins and stuff. If we were sanctioned tomorrow, I think we might be in a lot of trouble. 22 isnt a big number for heli's I suppose. But they shouldnt be in front line and crucial areas.

I like sanctions.. it kind of makes us more agile, and keep our labs and product development teams work on the next generation of weapons. I like to obtain the best in the world, and get sanctioned.

Though it has been exposed to Indian conditions during the evaluation process, shouldn't we ask for a few pieces from their surplus stocks to train & operate here, so that we can get comfy with the machine and also recommend any particular changes which can be incorporated while our batch is being manufactured? ... just like the initial batch of SU-27s we got?

Apologise if my questions sounds silly !


What about the source codes ? The US does not offer them . Does that mean we cant integrate any ATGM other than hellfires ?

As shyamd garu hinted, Are we moving from being a soveit dependent to US dependent now ? Will it be 1965 repeat again when the US will turn the suppy parts tap on and off as per its wishes ?

The US has zero incentive to turn off the supply tap and every incentive to give us their best technology, weapons and support. It's entirely up to us. Even if we had succeeded in developing our own sophisticated weapons, this would still be true. The world has changed 180 degrees and we really need to get over it and move on. If any country is stupid enough to piss India off now, it's days are truly numbered.

I think you went a little over board there with emotions.. I don't think we can say that in a sense, where any nuke in numbers is enough to be on par with a massive striker.

our doctrines are contextual, and it is entirely up to us to drive the show, and become the leader. if we are in a state always dependent on some one else (like a kid), then we would never mature.

so for the longer run, we need to come up with our own long bows.

Shivji....my comment was not meant to convey the feeling that this is history in the making...
I was talking with a TFTA amirkhan some days ago about Indo-US military relationship and I had mentioned to him that so far in recent times we have restricted ourselves to only buying secondary role weapons from the US and stayed away from full strike options sourced from the US due to the uncertainity associated with long term strategic support from Amirkhan....

Although I have been proven wrong if indeed the AH-64 make it to our armoury and after this the Howitzers....

It is more complicated than that. They have monocular instrument trained on the Right eye and the left eye is open to scan horizon etc. So basically they are training the mind to accept info from two different inputs.Not sure what that right eye is trying to read but thats how they follow the process.
Jayram

^^The monocular instrument is the helmet mounted targeting system. It is connected to the chain gun which moves in the direction the pilot is looking. It has nothing to do with what rohitvats is saying however.

right eye monocle is a HUD and also chain gun pointer - where the eye looks the gun follows

(nachiket beat me to it)

hello, hello, all that (monocular NVG helmets, guns slaved to helmet etc) are old hat for SDRE pilots flying the hinds with the decade old israeli upgrade.

unkill ka chaap perhaps that is making it tfta?

I dont think it is only slaving or NVG that is achieved by the monocular sight. It also acts as a HUD as Lalmohan points out which means the pilot receives critical instrument and environment info he needs to process without requiring a glance at the main instruments panel to carry out targeting and nap of the earth flying (for example) as described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display. However that does not mean we dont have that capability already - I have just not seen it implemented that way.