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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 13:36 
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Austin wrote:
Snehashis wrote:
Inside the Malaysian Scorpene


Impressive , Thanks for putting that up Snehashis.

It shows Exocet SM-39 in action .... hits some containers it carried 160 kg odd warhead , imagine Club with 400 kg warhead. But Scorpene is quite impressive sub and the sonar can hear lot of things including dolphins , shrimps etc :)

Should give us a good idea on whats inside this sub when IN starts operating it.



You are welcome Austin. The ICL-20 explosive developed by DRDO will be a real game changer. Think about hitting with just 160 kg ICL-20 warhead instead of 160 kg HMX. A 160 kg ICL-20 warhead will make damage equivalent of 2400 KG HMX enough to sink a carrier.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 19:32 
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PratikDas wrote:
^^^ How long will it take for one of these events to be recorded on a concealed cellphone and shared with the TV channels? I understand fisherman might not have fancy cellphones but I think even the basic ones have some video capability.


Per most articles the fishermen are not "victims" but indeed have knowingly crossed the IMBL - be it in Palk Straits or in Gujarat. Indian fishermen, also tend to be higher in numbers compare to the other side.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 19:47 
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That's a good point, Aditya ji. I'd started thinking about GPS-stamped photography solutions before the thought occurred that the fishermen might not even want to record their true coordinates!


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 20:24 
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Aditya G wrote:
PratikDas wrote:
^^^ How long will it take for one of these events to be recorded on a concealed cellphone and shared with the TV channels? I understand fisherman might not have fancy cellphones but I think even the basic ones have some video capability.


Per most articles the fishermen are not "victims" but indeed have knowingly crossed the IMBL - be it in Palk Straits or in Gujarat. Indian fishermen, also tend to be higher in numbers compare to the other side.


and other side knows that they are fishermen and why are they resorting to violence? usually, SL navy would shoot to kill. may be Italian incident has sent some dhoti shiver and now they are doing lathi charge?

may be fishermen should take up some self defense and special ops training like the one Austin posted....


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 20:38 
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> usually, SL navy would shoot to kill

That is not the attitude adopted by SLN, or IN or PN for that matter when it comes to erring fishermen. All navies however have resorted to:

1. Warning shots
2. Arrests
3. Confiscating equipment/catch

Hurling stones and bottles is perhaps not befitting a navy.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 20:50 
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>> http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... la-senarth

^^^ I can probably quote several articles.

Here is one from early 2011. published by the national newspaper of the national party.

SL navy is special; they use violence first.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 23:40 
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pandyan wrote:
SL navy is special; they use violence first.


That comes from years of conditioning of assuming that every unrecognized tug heading their way is a Sea Tiger suicide boat laden with explosives.
:lol:

In time they will get less trigger happy.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012 23:45 
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Aditya G wrote:
The Lankan Naval personnel allegedly attacked the fishermen with wooden logs, stones, bottles resulting in fracture to a 25-year old fisherman and bruises and bleeding injuries to others last night, police said.


What kind of a "navy" is this? Sounds more like a bunch of unruly thugs. If the fisherman were illegally in SL's territorial waters, they could have arrested them.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 13:21 
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A warning beacon put out at the IMBL between India-srilanka. Considering the number of lives lost in this region, it is not too much to ask for regular patrolling by coast guard or navy vessel to prevent ships leaving Indian waters. Even joint patrolling of water with SLN is worth exploring.

We might get a milder action from SLN with our naval ship in the vicinity. We could keep radio commucation with SLN vessels and even negotiate immediate handover of the captured indians/boats to be escorted back to our water. Time to start being assertive, if not overbearing.

Death that could have been prevented, are let to happen, and worse, forgotten.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 13:46 
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Sanku wrote:
That comes from years of conditioning of assuming that every unrecognized tug heading their way is a Sea Tiger suicide boat laden with explosives.
:lol:


that and the anti-piracy patrol rounds done by IN. IN may mistakenly shred the SL boats to pieces if they were shooting around. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 16:06 
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why dont we mark the palk strait border with a system of floating buoys with night lights and moored to the bottom?

afaik the big commercial ships sail south of SL and never enter the shallow palk strait.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 16:14 
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pandyan wrote:
Sanku wrote:
That comes from years of conditioning of assuming that every unrecognized tug heading their way is a Sea Tiger suicide boat laden with explosives.
:lol:


that and the anti-piracy patrol rounds done by IN. IN may mistakenly shred the SL boats to pieces if they were shooting around. :mrgreen:

That would be an act of war. I don't think the IN will move away from SOP.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 18:17 
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Snehashis wrote:
Austin wrote:
Impressive , Thanks for putting that up Snehashis.

It shows Exocet SM-39 in action .... hits some containers it carried 160 kg odd warhead , imagine Club with 400 kg warhead. But Scorpene is quite impressive sub and the sonar can hear lot of things including dolphins , shrimps etc :)

Should give us a good idea on whats inside this sub when IN starts operating it.



You are welcome Austin. The ICL-20 explosive developed by DRDO will be a real game changer. Think about hitting with just 160 kg ICL-20 warhead instead of 160 kg HMX. A 160 kg ICL-20 warhead will make damage equivalent of 2400 KG HMX enough to sink a carrier.


The bolded part is patently wrong. ICL-20 is nothing but indigeniously synthesized CL-20 explosive. CL-20 explosive are ~20% more potent than HMX. This has been reported as 20 times more potent by our DDM!!! :roll: With regards to using ICL-20 in our warheads, it's a long way out(10-15 years at least) before we do so. HMX costs about Rs.6000/kg while ICL-20 as of now costs Rs.70,000/kg. Till the time we can manufacture ICL-20 within Rs.10,000/kg, it will not be viable for mass adoption.

So 160kg of ICL-20 will give the effect of 190kg of HMX while costing 10 times more. You still want to sink an aircraft carrier? :twisted:


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 21:55 
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India to export warships to African countries
Quote:
PANAJI: Looking for export markets for its vessels, defence undertaking Goa Shipyard is offering its smaller size naval vessels to countries in Africa and the Middle East.

In this regard, a Nigerian delegation headed by a senior Navy officer of that country visited the shipyard last week in Goa.

"The visit assumes significance in view of GSL's ongoing efforts to market its state-of-the-art Patrol Vessels to coastal African nations and Middle East etc," the shipyard said.

The delegation was headed by Senator Chris N D Anyanwu, the Chairperson Senate Committee on Nigerian Navy and held discussions with GSL chief Rear Admiral (retd) Vineet Bakshi.

The delegation was also informed about the modernisation programme and progress made thereof, the spokesman said.

Expressing satisfaction on GSL's capability to design and build sophisticated and high value ships, the visiting delegation lauded GSL's efforts to upgrade its shipyard to meet the future defence requirements.

GSL is one of the main shipyards building vessels for the Indian Navy and Indian Coast Guard. The yard has also provided speed patrol boats required for coastal surveillance.


good going india


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 00:23 
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Marut wrote:


The bolded part is patently wrong. ICL-20 is nothing but indigeniously synthesized CL-20 explosive. CL-20 explosive are ~20% more potent than HMX. This has been reported as 20 times more potent by our DDM!!! :roll: With regards to using ICL-20 in our warheads, it's a long way out(10-15 years at least) before we do so. HMX costs about Rs.6000/kg while ICL-20 as of now costs Rs.70,000/kg. Till the time we can manufacture ICL-20 within Rs.10,000/kg, it will not be viable for mass adoption.





I stand corrected. Thanks Marut. Never thought it is possible to mix up with 20 percent and 20 times. :eek:

Quote:


So 160kg of ICL-20 will give the effect of 190kg of HMX while costing 10 times more. You still want to sink an aircraft carrier? :twisted:





Yeah! With a bigger warhead on Nirbhay. :twisted:


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 01:14 
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Location: Sukhoi/Sukhoi (Jaguars gone :( )Gali, pune
Was just imagining a scenario where we have to sink the *deleted* Carrier (CC) using CM's.

Two destroyers/frigates and 2 Missile boats equipped with Nirbhay and Brahmos (Missile boats with Brahmos). When the CC is to be attacked the MB's use their higher speed and move around 100 kms ahead of the Destroyers. The Destroyers Launch the Nirbhays (12 apiece) from little under max range. When Nirbhays are around 100 kms from the CC they will likely be detected. Approximately at this time the MB's will launch Brahmos (4 apiece) from max range (300 kms) and pull back at max speed.

When the CBG is busy with the Nirbhays the Brahmos punch through the CC and well that is history. Meanwhile a few Nirbhays in loiter mode will have enough time to fool targets and punch into the CC/ CBG and damage a few more ships.

Meanwhile out Destroyers/ Frigates and MB's will move back into the protective cover of a couple more destroyers as self defence.

Well, probably a lot of mistakes in this, but possible??


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 02:04 
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Without AWACS or some sort of airborne platform to provide the targeting information it is not going to work.

Assuming you have that Unkil tried it with TASM it never worked out because essentially with Ashm longer range the higher probability of missing target since you have larger radius to look for the ship (Brahmos like Ship wreck with its supersonic speed and higher flight altitude gets around it). In 30 or so minutes it takes to reach the target there is good chance the missiles will be going after a shipping vessel that happens to be in theater of conflict rather than the carrier. Besides without air support a handful of Fighters can take out the Frigates and missile boats even before they even get within firing range.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 11:46 
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In the short term,with the huge gap appearing in the sub fleet,the IN has no altertnative but toi bridge the gap by leasing out more N-subs from Russia.With Russia too needing large numbers of both conventional and nuclear subs too and has accelerate its construction programme,with just 4 years needed for a new SSBN/SSGN,another two Akulas if ordered now would arrive by 2016,the first,an unfinished sub according to some reports,perhaps as early as 2015.Obtaining an extra 3-4 SSGNs from Russia would also allow the local SSBN programme to concentrate asap upon building the first 5 SSBNs planned for the strategic deterrent.This way by the decade's end,we would be able to possess 5+5 SSBNs and SSGNs,along with 6 Scorpenes,and around 8-12 of the U-209s andupgraded Kilos available,when the second line of subs starts being inducted.If a Russian boat is chosen before 2014,then we could have the first two subs in service even before 2020.This would giv ethe IN a formidable sub force of both nculear and conventional AIP subs.


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 07:26 
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Location: Atop Orthanc, cursing, "Damn it where are those backfires??"
Ahem, can I once again make my humble plug for those Backfires? Nothing better (in the interim) to deter CBGs than half a dozen Tu-22M.3s that could sneak up at short notice, release a couple of dozen B'mos/Clubs and run away. Even if release is around 300km, time to target is not much, and carrier/assets can't get far enough away to avoid being slammed. I doubt the air defence bubble is going to work that far off from mothership so results should be pretty good. If a couple of capital ships are sunk, that is a HUGE loss for the enemy.


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 07:28 
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how are they in terms of serviceability and uptime?


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 21:00 
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Tu-22Ms are passe .... we wants Su-34


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 21:37 
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I think we had better wait a bit for the PAKDA. renderings on web show it smaller than Tu22M, but perhaps bigger than Su34. a useful size for small stealthy ASMs or hypersonic quickstrike missiles + LO airframe.
size ofcourse varies based on the enthu of the person rendering it...all the way upto a big 73m airframe
http://weapons.technology.youngester.co ... omber.html

some concepts are probably going to be there.
- atleast a 5000km combat radius with load (given Russia's vast size and sparse strategic bases like Engels)
- big wet wings to get that range
- a modified form of the 5th gen fighter engine or a cleaner smaller version of the tu160 engines with significant gains in noise, sfc, EDE, reduced IR sig
- deeply hidden engines behind long serpentine air intakes
- internal bay for the good stuff
- option to hang a few pylons for Dday + N low risk missions
- 2-4 man crew
- massive passive & active EW suite as penetration aid
- (for Russia) - KH101 and KH65 as the prime weapon & Yakhont2 as the ASM


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 23:42 
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There are dozens of TU-22s available,many mothballed,but all need their avionics,etc. upgraded as the Russians found out in the Georgian spat where one was downed.The range and payload of the aircraft,a strategic bomber, is far superior to that of the SU-34 ,which is a tactical strike aircraft.A dozen Backfires would give the IN massive reach even without refuelling and enable the IN to operate in the Asia-Pacific theatre apart from anywhere in the IOR.


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 23:54 
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Backfire are only effective in used in large numbers to saturate the carrier defenses their size and large RCS makes them easy picking for any carrier borne fighters. Any threat would in Indian ocean so range is not a major factor. As we had discussed much better and cheaper strategy would to send a squadron of flankers (with tankers if need be) half of them can provide air cover and target designation (flying high) for low flying flankers carrying AshM.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 08:30 
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Indian Naval Destroyer INS Ranjit arrives at Surabaya


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 11:07 
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Cain Marko wrote:
Ahem, can I once again make my humble plug for those Backfires? Nothing better (in the interim) to deter CBGs than half a dozen Tu-22M.3s that could sneak up at short notice, release a couple of dozen B'mos/Clubs and run away. Even if release is around 300km, time to target is not much, and carrier/assets can't get far enough away to avoid being slammed. I doubt the air defence bubble is going to work that far off from mothership so results should be pretty good. If a couple of capital ships are sunk, that is a HUGE loss for the enemy.


Why not TU 160? I like them.
K


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 11:30 
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IS the Sea Eagle AShM still in service with the Indian Navy.Is it integrated on all aircraft of naval aviation,because wiki shows that the Sea Harrier,Sea KIng,TU-142,IL-38 and the Jaguar IM can fire this missile.Is this missile outdated because every user except us has retired the missile?I also read on Klub's wiki page that an air launched version is in development to arm Indian and Russian Navy;s tu-142.Any news on that matter ?


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 12:22 
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afaik only the Pune based Jaguar IM unit ever used Sea Eagle (barring the IN Sea Kings and IL38). the Sea harriers did not use it apparently. I guess its still in service until a similar option is funded like harpoon or some israeli equivalent. never heard of air launched klub...such a huge missile .... the air launched version of KH35 does exist though ... no word on us buying it.

imo we can buy something like harpoon or exocet for the MKIs and Rafales as they are the ones most long legged and payload wise can carry 2 x ASM a good distance over the ocean. the Mig29K could also use it if mil-std bus etc are in use which is likely.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 12:25 
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Singha wrote:
afaik only the Pune based Jaguar IM unit ever used Sea Eagle (barring the IN Sea Kings and IL38). the Sea harriers did not use it apparently. I guess its still in service until a similar option is funded like harpoon or some israeli equivalent. never heard of air launched klub...such a huge missile .... the air launched version of KH35 does exist though ... no word on us buying it.

imo we can buy something like harpoon or exocet for the MKIs and Rafales as they are the ones most long legged and payload wise can carry 2 x ASM a good distance over the ocean.


where in pune the jaguars are stationed? i never saw any jaguar at pune airport.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 12:28 
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I have never been to pune in my life. but thats what all the literature says. maybe they moved to jamnagar or vadodara at some point?


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 12:53 
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Singha wrote:
I have never been to pune in my life. but thats what all the literature says. maybe they moved to jamnagar or vadodara at some point?


i just did dome research and came to know 12 jaguar IMs were built and currently they are operated by No. 6 Squadron (dragons) stationed at Tiruchirapalli.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 13:29 
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:eek:
I think they are more likely to be in jamnagar.per web search brings a brf link: In 2007, the Squadron moved to Jamnagar to allow Pune to become an exclusive Sukhoi-30

earlier were in lohegaon per BRF pix
http://members.tripod.com/mani_singh/in ... force3.htm

2 x IAI Astra for ELINT visible in jamnagar


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 14:17 
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i have seen lots of jaguars at pune airport


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 14:31 
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yes they used to be in lohegaon. had the pleasure of seeing them once upon a time. moved to jamnagar last I heard.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 18:47 
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Rahul M wrote:
yes they used to be in lohegaon. had the pleasure of seeing them once upon a time. moved to jamnagar last I heard.
Yes, saw them take off at JAM and do the sorties. Quite visible from a taxiing plane. Such a pretty sight they are.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 19:24 
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IIRC, Jamnagar also hosts the 224 Squadron which converted to Jags after retirement of Mig-23MF.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 20:26 
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Singha wrote:
the air launched version of KH35 does exist though ... no word on us buying it..


Both MiG-29K and IL-38SD have been photographed testing the Uran missile in Russia. 99% it is in service with the Navy as well - otherwise we are saying that the naval air arm is flying aircraft that cannot attack ships!

And then BR report says:

Weapons include RVV-AE BVR missiles, R-73 missiles and Kh-35 Uran air to surface anti ship missiles besides the standard range of bombs and an internal GShSh 30mm cannon on the port side above the wing root..


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 21:26 
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late Harry once posted a pic of a IL38 with a pylon mounted Sea Eagle I think! caused quite a stir here.

on google earth Jamnagar looks like the most Shakinah IAF base in terms of infra and size . well ahead of jodhpur for sure. it has X runways and huge aprons, with couple of alert takeoff HAS at the end of each runway to permit 1min scrambles . couple of IL38 with sea dragon radar housing is also visible, as are Dorniers, a entire squadron of Jag IM (black nose), normal Jaguars in another area, Astras for ELINT...the place must hum with activity.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 22:05 
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rohitvats wrote:
IIRC, Jamnagar also hosts the 224 Squadron which converted to Jags after retirement of Mig-23MF.


new build jags? 2 seaters? with the darin III?


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 22:45 
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The US is planning for a naval blockade of Iran before any attacks,to prevent it from shipping its oil.In such a scenario,India would have to escort its tankers transiting the Gulf and a situ might develop where we will be opposed against US/western naval forces.The IN and IAF had better start training for such an eventuality asap as Uncle Sam is mightily p*ssed off with India and other nations who have defied its sanctions regime against Iran.
Now the need or rather the absence of LR strategic bombers like the TU-22 Backfires is sorely felt.We will not be able to operate any aircraft barring the TU-142s,without refuelling as far away as the Gulf.The sooner such an acquisition is made the better we will be able to safeguard our energy supplies.

In the interim,before the sh*t hits the fan,we should import as much oil from Iran as is possible-as much as they can ship.Iran is supposedly offering huge discounts right now and the oil imported should be used to build up a strategic reserve for many months,using even the oil tank farm at Trinco where IOC has a presence.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/NewsDeta ... fault.aspx

Quote:
Naval Blockade Of Iran Must Be Considered: US Senator
‘Boost Pressure’
WASHINGTON, March 10, (RTRS): An international naval blockade of Iranian oil exports should be considered before any resort to air strikes against the country’s disputed nuclear program, the chairman of the US Senate Armed Services Committee said on Friday.
“That’s, I think, one option that needs to be considered” to boost pressure on Iran to curb its nuclear program in line with U.N. Security Council resolutions, Democratic Senator Carl Levin said in an interview taped for C-SPAN’s “Newsmakers” program.
He said any such blockade should be preceded by lining up alternative oil supplies to avoid a price spike on world crude markets. Iran is OPEC’s second-largest oil producer and the world’s third-largest petroleum exporter.
Levin was responding to a question about possible ways of increasing pressure short of combat, including imposition of a “no-fly zone” over Iran.
Such moves “could be very effective,” he said. “I think (these are) options that whoever is willing to participate should explore, including Israel and including the United States.”


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