Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2011

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ShauryaT
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ShauryaT »

U.S.-India Engagement: Laying the Foundations for a New Asian Security Architecture
The Heritage Foundation is pleased to host a timely discussion on U.S.-India relations prior to the Sixth Annual East Asia Summit to be held November 17-19 in Indonesia. Our program will be led by one of India’s foremost security affairs experts and former member of India’s National Security Advisory Board, Professor Bharat Karnad. Professor Karnad will be joined by a panel of experts to assess India’s growing role in Asia and how the U.S. and India can work more closely to promote mutual interests in the region. Our speakers will examine the opportunities and constraints to furthering U.S.-India cooperation in the Indo-Pacific region, especially in maintaining freedom of navigation on the open seas and shaping the future security architecture in the region.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Philip »

Ah Ha! At last he has been "outed",like a closet gay,BK has been endorsed by none other than the Heritage Foundation.That explains why he wants India to go soft on Pak,to suit Gen.Kill-any,who can redirect his forces to deal with anti-Pak entities in Af-Pak,as he can then convicne his army that India has been "defanged" by Uncle Sam.The pressure form the US for India to take a more hostile posture against China is part of the plot.However,we being Asian,well understand the mind of the mandarins of the Middle Kingdom,having (hopefuly) learnt the lessons of '62 and the faceoff two decades ago at S Chu.

We actually do not need any urging from the US to gird our loins against China,its actions speak louder than its words.As our former R&AW chief Vik Sood said,"the US is searching for allies in Asia,but India can only offer personal friendship".We have to be exceptionally careful of a dubious "trick of the dragon".It is unusual for the PRC to warn India,wekk after week,make us focus our attention into the Indo-China region,but why? Apart from the dragon's fiery breath at our cavorting with hated Vietnam,is not this concerted public outrage meant for us to split our capabilities,which in the short to medium term will greatly help Pak,who can deliver a sudden "sucker punch",acting as China's proxy,thus fulfilling the PRC's aim of winning a battle/war without having to fire a shot! It will simply let lackey Pak walk the (Chinese) talk.If Pak can embarass India as Gen.Bandicoot did initially with his Kargil msiadventure,then China can hoot with laughter and deride India asan aspiring "superpower" that cannot even eal with China's protege.

Therein lies the danger of glancing away from the Indo-Pak border.While we take urgent measures to deal with the open threat from China,we must treat Pak as the western wing of the Han empire and devise a strategy to militarily rout Pak should it become neccessary,while keeping the dragon at bay all along the Himalayas and in the Indo-Pacific waters.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

I listened to Karnad's speech and found it disappointing. "GDP of TSP is a quarter of BSE market cap. Hence no threat" is a very poor argument. History, including Indian history is full of cases of rich flabby nations being overrun by impoverished barbarians. Was Karnad not challenged on this?

We say in Telugu, "even a small snake requires a big stick." Disrespect and dismissal of an enemy like TSP is not a good sign of wisdom.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Anurag »

BK at the Heritage...he sounded desperate and not diplomatic. Honestly, he was laughed at in my eyes.

I'm disappointed, roll back the emotional crap! The Americans are way better at putting the point across.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by abhischekcc »

Just because BK has been asked to lead a discussion by the Heritage Foundation does not make him an American asset. This is despite the fact that all that BK advocated were pro-American policies. Perhaps he is being pragmatic, perhaps he is simply being a mouth piece for policies that have already been decided upon (and hence need public justification), perhaps he really believes these policies to be in India's favor, and perhaps he really is an American stooge.

There are many possible reasons why he said what he said.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

Unspoken premise of Karnad seems to be that we have in some sense "co-opted" Indian Muslims who are mostly the same as mohajirs. So the hope might be that aam pakis will also come around in the manner and to the extent Indian Muslims did. Missing from this calculation is the availability of the TSPA. and nukes for the aam paki so that he doesn't really have to compromise with the Hindus though he might condescend to toss out a smile and kind word now and then while graciously accepting our tribute.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Arjun »

No way Karnad can be described as an American asset ....do view his speech and Q/A session as part of the Heritage foundation conference. If anything, he quite disappointed the hosts of the program. In a program meant to focus on Indo -US defence cooperation he was focusing entirely on the challenges of any such cooperation rather than the opportunities; while on the other hand going into raptures about the possibility of Indo-Vietnamese cooperation.

Frankly that was not very smart - he should be focused on encouraging any nation that has a convergence of interests with India and I found his attitude on the Heritage panel quite disappointing and somewhat strange.

The other factor that makes the possibility of him being any kind of American asset quite remote is his stance on nuclear power. The Heritage Foundation is a known votary of nuclear power. Karnad's stance on the nuclear deal & civilian nuclear power is quite the opposite of American interests.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by shiv »

Arjun wrote: Frankly that was not very smart - he should be focused on encouraging any nation that has a convergence of interests with India and I found his attitude on the Heritage panel quite disappointing and somewhat strange.
I didn't listen, but that is a very Indian thought process - that is that he should appear positive and encouraging even if he does not feel that way. I always thought that it was an American tendency to be up front and forthright, and an Indian tendency (and Pakis too as Ms Fair writes) of not being up front and not saying things straight for fear of embarrassing a host.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Arjun »

shiv wrote:I didn't listen, but that is a very Indian thought process - that is that he should appear positive and encouraging even if he does not feel that way. I alwyas thought that it was an American tendency to be up front and forthright, and an Indian tendency (and Pakis too as Ms Fair writes) of not being up front and not saying things straight for fear of embarrassing a host.
Americans are typically quick to size up the other party in any negotiation...if they feel there is nothing of value to them they would be quite upfront and blunt about it. On the other hand, if they perceive even a little possibility of the other party being of some use to them - the charm and sweet talk would be turned on full blast !! Americans are quite the best marketers in the world in that aspect.

Coming back to the Heritage program - I am not suggesting Karnad should have acquiesced to any American stance - not at all. But he should have laid out the big picture of what India's interests are and under what terms and conditions the Americans can fit in in that scheme of things. My sole crib is that some amount of that 'big picture laying out' was missing - Karnad jumped straight into 'here are the challenges' kind of a stance.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ParGha »

Rudradev wrote:
ParGha wrote:The primary focus will be on breaking this combine, from the begining to end. Since we don't know WHY they have combined, let us generally say conciliatory gestures, concessions and bribery of appropriate types can be tried on CH to leave PK in the lurch. When it escalates to a shooting war, the first focus will be on isolating a sizable PK formation (plus some) and completely annihilating it - not rendering it combat ineffective, simply totally destroying it. It serves two fold purpose: to tell the PKs that the nature of fighting India has changed, India may or may not win this war but sure as hell there won't be a PK left to feed on the carrion. The second purpose is to implicitly ask the CH if such warfare is acceptable to a nation under One Child Policy. Repeat as necessary.
Not really sure how this is supposed to work. It may be convenient to talk about "isolation" but where on the great rolling plain across the IB is this lone sitting duck of a Pakistani formation supposed to present itself ? Isolating and destroying Pakistani formations in the mountains has not been of any use; we did exactly that in Kargil and what did it solve? The TSPA simply refused to admit ownership of the 4,000 corpses they left behind, and suffered no political consequences for the destruction (because domestically, they are completely teflon-coated with respect to their dismal war record against India). ... BUT the strike corps and CSD are NOT going to be the tool for getting India's subcontinental house in order... only to deter aggressive action by Pakistan. If we try to use them in an offensive or punitive capacity, we run up against the Pakistan Paradox, as I mentioned in my earlier post. I do not buy the possibility of isolating and destroying one TSPA formation and the Pakis learning any valuable lesson from it; moreoever, whatever we destroy, China and the 3.5 friends will gladly replenish. So even if it were technically possible, I don't see what the strategic advantage would be.


Big Difference: You are thinking Kargil, I am thinking Khalkhin Gol. What applies better to the goal of preventing a two-front war?
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ParGha »

Rudradev wrote:
ParGha wrote:No such paradox; you are inducing self-paralysis through over-analysis. In fact in 1965, Premier Chou En-Lai did recommend Gen Ayub Khan to continue fighting an indefinite Maoist People's War (which the Chinese could have fast supported with first-hand experience {Japanese Occupation of China in WWII and the Chinese Civil War}, and expertise in materials and tactics for such warfare); Gen Ayub Khan flat out refused to fight such a war, and instead chose to sue for peace at Tashkent Conference. The Pakistanis know Pakistanis better than most people, and know how fickle is faith without fear (ask Airavat for historic explanation). The decision to end the war in 1965 was driven by the need to keep it a winnable one-front war (which India did win).
India's victory in 1965, as you have outlined, is simply further evidence that this paradox exists. India's achievement on that occasion amounted to thwarting Pakistani territorial aggression and restoring the SQAB... and that is exactly what we did. It was a military victory but in strategic terms, a tacit admission that the Pakistan paradox exists. What if we had not responded to Ayub suing for peace at Tashkent, but pressed on into Lahore? Whether the Pakistanis had collapsed in surrender or continued to fight a "people's war"... or both, with some factions going one way and some the other... India was completely unprepared to handle either outcome. We could deflate Grand Slam and invest Lahore but at the end of the day we gave away even the Haji Pir pass... why?
The 1965 India-Pak War was instigated/supported by Mao; the Chinese intervention was anticipated (demarches had been issued). Not as simple situation as you propose. No room for your paradox to exist within the time and capability constraints.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Kanson »

Arjun wrote:
shiv wrote:I didn't listen, but that is a very Indian thought process - that is that he should appear positive and encouraging even if he does not feel that way. I alwyas thought that it was an American tendency to be up front and forthright, and an Indian tendency (and Pakis too as Ms Fair writes) of not being up front and not saying things straight for fear of embarrassing a host.
Americans are typically quick to size up the other party in any negotiation...if they feel there is nothing of value to them they would be quite upfront and blunt about it. On the other hand, if they perceive even a little possibility of the other party being of some use to them - the charm and sweet talk would be turned on full blast !! Americans are quite the best marketers in the world in that aspect.
My reading is quite contrary to conclusions on Karnad's message there. Background of this, is the US relation with India and other countries in west pacific from the point of rising China. From the beginning, Karnad's message delivered there on India-US relationship is, and till the end as he mentioned when balloon goes up US won't be here, there is still a lot of mistrust in the minds of Indians on US and US should do more.

You are seeing the other way around. Here the 'negotiation' if any is steered by Karnad and not Americans and Americans wants to hear it out. Daniel, another speaker, agrees to Karnad's contention by quoting Obama's U turn to China for a G2 setup in the beginning. But he tries to sell the relationship saying with US in India's side, it gains leverage in the eye's China. while at the same time Lisa agrees to Karnad that China's change in stance is more to do with Indo-US defence partnership and N deal. And it is clear from American speakers, there is lot of uncertainty and they India to be on their side - actually lot of selling.
Coming back to the Heritage program - I am not suggesting Karnad should have acquiesced to any American stance - not at all. But he should have laid out the big picture of what India's interests are and under what terms and conditions the Americans can fit in in that scheme of things. My sole crib is that some amount of that 'big picture laying out' was missing - Karnad jumped straight into 'here are the challenges' kind of a stance.
From the above view, i think... I think, he let Americas to come up with their end of offers. That's how i read it.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Arjun »

Kanson,

Karnad pretty much dissed the whole Indo-US 'strategic partnership' as based on a false premises. There's no question that he was consciously taking a 'glass half empty' stance - which Daniel noted and commented on. Also at one point I think Lisa asks Karnad incredulously whether his views implied that he does not see any merit in partnership with like-minded nations? To which Daniel responds with a laugh that Karnad sees value in partnering with Vietnam but not with the US.

But you are right - on second thoughts Karnad is sending a clear message to the US. His point is that there are 2 false premises the US is basing the strategic partnership on.

1) Since balancing China is a key factor that the US has spelt out for the strategic partnership, the restriction on India's strategic program from US NPAs needs to go - otherwise India cannot be of much use in deterring China

2) India needs a government that has the will to stand up to China. Until this comes about, the US is basing its expectations from the deal on false premises.

I'll revise my earlier opinion - Karnad IS actually selling his vision, and sending a clear message to the US on what is required to make the partnership successful.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ramana »

Was Tellis in the audience?
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:Was Tellis in the audience?
No, not at heritage. However, he did meet Tellis earlier in Princeton and something interesting was mentioned. Tellis does not think a test by India will necessarily have a severe reaction from the US!
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ShauryaT »

Arjun wrote:
I'll revise my earlier opinion - Karnad IS actually selling his vision, and sending a clear message to the US on what is required to make the partnership successful.
I am glad you did, saved me a lot of typing :)

Here is the correct way to read Karnad, IMO.

- His raw gut is to represent the non compromised view of the Indian national interest based on great power ambitions for India, without fear or favor to ANYONE
- His policy advises, example (co-option of TSP) is a considered view, which takes into account various factors such as competing interests, threat assessments, political environment and attitudes, military capability, economic strength, partnerships, etc.

So, he knows that arming vietnam with nuclear weapons is a raw articulation of an non compromised view of Indian national interest, unlikely to fruition. When it comes to policy, this raw view has to be tempered by other facts. We need someone out there to articulate this raw view of the national interest (example: the answer to the last question in the heritage program) as 99% of them already concede and articulate a compromised view.

Example: A very respected nuclear strategist for India had a particular view just before the 1998 tests and soon thereafter.His nuclear postures were more more warheads and more MT than even BK ever suggested. However, as the political environment changed, this person no longer articulated the same views. He is still very respected in policy circles in India and the word is, he is changing his views again to what BK has been saying. My point is - very few in India have the guts to articulate the non compromised version of views. This is what BK does best and India needs these views on the table - even if a large majority of them are unlikely to be ever adopted as policy in their raw form.

As for the matter that BK speaks for the Americans, MMS, WKK's, DIE, TSPA, etc - take it all with a pinch of salt. He is what he is, a non partisan and fiercely independent advocate for the Indian National Interest, as he sees them.

The only thing to be careful is to detect, which parts are policy oriented and which parts are aspirational. The untrained eye and even experienced ones can easily get confused between the two.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by SaiK »

ShauryaT wrote:[Tellis does not think a test by India will necessarily have a severe reaction from the US!
sub-critical testing needs no dhoti shiver to anyone. actually the reverse is true.. many in khan land, fear of India going out of control and beyond.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ramana »

ShauryaT wrote: My point is - very few in India have the guts to articulate the non compromised version of views.
Its not about guts but about being invariant on national-state interests. The problem with ost Indians is they see and seek the middle way even if they don't have all the facts. Most likely the above expert was looking at West only and not at PRC psyche and came to terms with the values of POKII and hence adovcated that was a sufficeint stance. If he has changed it means there is a change in the capability now. Again going with the wind.

Sometime back I had called Karnad a maximalist and CRM a minimalist.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Arjun »

ShauryaT wrote:His raw gut is to represent the non compromised view of the Indian national interest based on great power ambitions for India, without fear or favor to ANYONE
Agree, I think it is important for some policy expert to articulate the maximalist position with regard to China - and looks like Karnad is taking on that mantle.

But the hope should of course be that India and China, which largely represent the future of the world in many ways - will start dealing with each other in a rational and level-headed manner, and remain sensitive to the other's concerns while growing their own economies.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by RamaY »

FWIW,

BK clearly said in NJ-meet that India will have to face its demons on its own. West or any other country will not come to its rescue vis.a.vis China.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by yantra »

India has to start thinking like a super power before it becomes one. TSP has to be 'managed' - instead of it being so by China, US or Russia (?), it better be India and soon, since India understands TSP culture better than anyone else in the game.

No one is saying ignore TSP or see it as a reduced threat - in any form or manner. Right now, it is perceived as the only major threat. All BK is suggesting is to invest India's energies optimally and prioritize in strategically important order, and build our capabilities accordingly (he said India optimally requires 13 Mountain Divs, and we are struggling to get to 4 right now).

Our national posture and bearing should change in accordance with our economy and national stature - it cannot be Pak-centric all the time!
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Rudradev »

Philip wrote:Ah Ha! At last he has been "outed",like a closet gay,BK has been endorsed by none other than the Heritage Foundation.
Philip,

Did you actually watch the video and hear what BK said to the Heritage Foundation? In the opening 15-20 minutes, he first says that the USA has a trust deficit in New Delhi. Then he goes on to explain multiple US behaviours that have contributed to the trust deficit... from the US sanctioning India's nuclear program, to the US building up China and winking at Chinese non-proliferation, to the ridiculous impositions implicit in the CISMOA and EULA.

He says all this with a blunt forthrightness that I've frankly never heard from an SDRE speaking to an audience of American policymakers. We have had Krishna Menon spitting bilious histrionics, and we've had Jaswant Singh's half-apologetic references to equal-equal "mistakes on both sides" before his friend Strobe... against all that spectrum, BK's address is a breath of fresh air. He tells it like it is; US doesn't have the stakes in Asia that India has, and India must chart its own independent course to deal with China rather than relying on any American partnership.

If the Heritage Foundation was planning to "endorse" BK then he certainly made them sorry.

Anyone who thinks that there's any serious extent of commonality between BK and the MMS GOI... despite the one aspect of optimism regarding Pakistan (unwarranted in my opinion)... needs to watch BK's address to Heritage.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Bharath.Subramanyam »

Rudradev wrote: Did you actually watch the video and hear what BK said to the Heritage Foundation? In the opening 15-20 minutes,...
Can any one please post the link to this video? I tried to search in youtube, couldn't get any video of BK speaking in Heritage Foundation.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Arjun »

Rudradev wrote:Anyone who thinks that there's any serious extent of commonality between BK and the MMS GOI... despite the one aspect of optimism regarding Pakistan (unwarranted in my opinion)... needs to watch BK's address to Heritage.
From what I can make out, BK has a single-minded objective of wanting India to resume testing of nukes and develop MT-level nukes so as to deter China...That is the overriding objective that drives every other statement of his.

His views on Pakistan also need to be analyzed in light of their utility in countering opposition to renewed testing from the usual NPA quarters...
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Philip »

Rudra tx.Initial reporting of BK's "Heritage" jaunt appeared to be lopsided.Let's give hm the benefit of the doubt,but his stance on going soft on Pak is highly questionable.

If you take a long look at US attempts over the last decade to induct Inda into its fold,it has continually adopted a slanted approach to India;ss ecyurity,always conducting military exercises ONLY with its Pacific Command! It has never allowed any Indian contact with its central Command which has a very strong relationship with Pak,despite India's repeated requests.WE can thereforesee US duplicity at had,keeping Pak close to its bosom,in lustful enbrace,while trying to play "footsie" with India under the table.India therefore must pretend that Pak and its cross-border perfidy doesn't exist,that we should forget about a nation called Afghanistan and pluck out an eye from our face allowing us to only look to wards China and that Asia-Pacific region! SEcurity experts like BK or others,whp peddle this postue that India must adopt-"softly ,softly" with pak,are merely mouthing what the US has been saying all along nd whether by design or default,are peddling the US's flawed security architecture for the Indian subcontinent

While it is indeed true,as BK said,that no one will come to our aid in a crisis,it is therefore absolutely neccesary that we adopt a two-front scenario,from an "axis of evil",on the ground ,while also planning for a third front,enemy agression on the high seas whether it be in the IOR/Persian Gulf ,Indo-China Sea or the Pacific. India thus will have to find on its own genuine partners,who also fear the ambitions of the Middle Kingdom in the east,like several ASEAN states,afearing the evil designs of the TSP and its Islamist jihadis in the west, like the Afghans,Central Asians and Iranians too.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ShauryaT »

Arjun wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Anyone who thinks that there's any serious extent of commonality between BK and the MMS GOI... despite the one aspect of optimism regarding Pakistan (unwarranted in my opinion)... needs to watch BK's address to Heritage.
From what I can make out, BK has a single-minded objective of wanting India to resume testing of nukes and develop MT-level nukes so as to deter China...That is the overriding objective that drives every other statement of his.

His views on Pakistan also need to be analyzed in light of their utility in countering opposition to renewed testing from the usual NPA quarters...
Let us put it this way, China is a justification for a proven deterrent. BK has one agenda - it is rooted in great power ambitions for India, which is the overriding objective.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by yantra »

Bharath.Subramanyam wrote:
Rudradev wrote: Did you actually watch the video and hear what BK said to the Heritage Foundation? In the opening 15-20 minutes,...
Can any one please post the link to this video? I tried to search in youtube, couldn't get any video of BK speaking in Heritage Foundation.
http://www.heritage.org/Events/2011/11/ ... ment#watch
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by yantra »

ShauryaT wrote:
Arjun wrote: From what I can make out, BK has a single-minded objective of wanting India to resume testing of nukes and develop MT-level nukes so as to deter China...That is the overriding objective that drives every other statement of his.

His views on Pakistan also need to be analyzed in light of their utility in countering opposition to renewed testing from the usual NPA quarters...
Let us put it this way, China is a justification for a proven deterrent. BK has one agenda - it is rooted in great power ambitions for India, which is the overriding objective.
^^++1
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by SaiK »

there is a tussle going on with masan political junkies.. to aid pakis or not.

what does she mean by "too nuclear to fail" here:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rep-bachmann ... r-to-fail/

china-paki ally seems to be the focus area... and that will never be broken even if masans give 100b from left pocket.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ramana »

She thinks the TSP is awash in nukes and could lead to loose nukes syndrome. However same time, the self same US is ready to assure India that the proximity security put in place since 9/11 is very tight and that the TSP does not have assembled weapons. I really would like a weapon scientist to opine on this but then can expect snow in hell.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by SaiK »

yes.. we need to blow this thing up as much as possible. let us take her argument, and get the grilling done from babu zone. show me the paki nukes.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Rudradev »

SaiK wrote:there is a tussle going on with masan political junkies.. to aid pakis or not.

what does she mean by "too nuclear to fail" here:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rep-bachmann ... r-to-fail/

china-paki ally seems to be the focus area... and that will never be broken even if masans give 100b from left pocket.
LINK GIVES MALWARE ALERT. Be careful.
SaiK
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by SaiK »

thanks for warning. please to share the detection s/w info if not OT?
Guddu
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Guddu »

SaiK wrote:there is a tussle going on with masan political junkies.. to aid pakis or not.

what does she mean by "too nuclear to fail" here:
The line she expertly deployed, that Pakistan is "too nuclear to fail," comes from a quote from the Brookings Institution's Stephen P. Cohen. Bachmann is not a very bright bulb.
In the Republican debate the best answer to dealing with pak was provided by Gingrich, straight out of BRF. Romney remains quite dumb on the issue.
ramana
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ramana »

One item that Bharat Karnad forcefully conveys in the Heritage piece in response to a desi accent student on India-China relations at Georgetown Uty question on India recognizing Tibet as part of PRC is that India recognizes an autonomous Tibet region in PRC. Implied in that formulation is : if there is no autonomy there is no recognition.

Around 1:01 time frame.
Philip
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Philip »

What an asinine *&^.I apologise to all animals that provide us with milk!

If the mighty Soviet Union,far more "Nuclear to fail" than this little pestilential terrorist parasite Pak,could fail so catastrophically,what justification does this mentally retarded yanqui squaw imagine that Pak will never fail because it possesses nuclear firecrackers? This must indeed be heartening news to Dear Leader Kim,who I have no doubt will starve a few more million of his undernourished people and manufacture a few more N-bombs to ward off forign devils!

The squawks and squaels from this squaw of Capitol Hill provide us with great entertainment,but sadly,in the mentally depleted institution of N.Am-I exclude Canada from this asylum,such shrill sounds are mistaken for real music and Yanqui diplomacy and strategy looks to such insanities for inspiration.I can see in my crystal ball Ahmed-in-a-jacket and the ayatollahs scurrying to their underground N-installations and screaming to their scientists to accelerate Iran's N-ambitions so that it too can boast of a Bachmann quote in the future!
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:One item that Bharat Karnad forcefully conveys in the Heritage piece in response to a desi accent student on India-China relations at Georgetown Uty question on India recognizing Tibet as part of PRC is that India recognizes an autonomous Tibet region in PRC. Implied in that formulation is : if there is no autonomy there is no recognition.

Around 1:01 time frame.
I have heard Pranab Mukherjee say the same, so BK is on good ground on the above.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by ShauryaT »

This transcript is from a talk at the INSS/NDU, co-sponsored by the Atlantic Council.
Rethinking Indian Policies Towards Pakistan

Posting only a part.
One of the things I‘ve suggested – incidentally, in my first book, which was not mentioned, which was many years back – I‘d said I was under the impression then that Chinese had given the Pakistan state a dirty bomb. I got that from somewhere. And what I suggested was that we actually give (our clean implosion trigger) fission weapon technology to Pakistan as a way of eroding the mistrust. So you know where I‘m coming from; that‘s by way of laying the context. Meaning that if you have to address Pakistani security, let‘s do it, because as far as I‘m concerned, Pakistan has never posed a threat to India, credible threat to India, is not now a threat to India, cannot ever be a threat to India. And I‘ll not get into the asymmetric aspect of the threat from terrorism; that‘s a separate issue. I‘ll deal with it as a final bullet point.

Some of the things I‘ve suggested – and by the way, when I suggested that we should actually transfer nuclear weapon technology that‘s clean, and I believed that our design was clean – the position was endorsed by General K. Sundarji. His endorsement is in my book I edited called ―Future Imperiled,‖ published by Viking in 1994. So you have it there, in a sense that he had gotten over the institutional fixation, as I have said, with Pakistan that prevails in India. And now the kind of gestures that I‘ve suggested that India take, in a sense, to let Pakistan know that we don‘t mean ill. Then they would have to deal with whatever response they have on their terms.

First of all, I said – and this was when I was in government, in the National Security Council – that we really ought to withdraw all nuclearized short-range ballistic missiles that are liquid fueled, which are a major liability anyway – their being liquid fueled – completely from the western border, unilaterally, demanding nothing of Pakistan.

Since then, I‘ve suggested that we really ought to begin to consolidate the three strike corps establishments that we have, which is really the major thing that Pakistani army‘s spooked by, into a consolidated corps – a single corps with a number of independent armored brigades. Now, the problem there is many in the army see the point but then there‘s the vested interest, which all of you understand. Armor and mechanized forces are now in the Indian army hierarchy a major vested interest. I mean, a force with 3,300-3,500 tanks – many of them mothballed, actually, up on bricks. But you have enormous investment; and therefore, a bureaucratic and political investment by the military in the armor and mechanized forces. And the result is Pakistan fears this massive mobile element; after all, India is not going trundle three-strike corps against China even through the Sikkim plain and Demchok triangle. You can‘t do it.
So you talk to reasonable cavalry generals in India, armor generals and they say, yeah, but things stop there. The reason being, after the last pay commission and the hike in ranks, at every turn in Delhi in the defense industry, you run into a Major General at every turn. Meaning so many flag-rank officers – Brigadier, Major General, and Lieutenant General rank officers have been created – many in the armor and mechanized forces, because it‘s a major combat arm – that they will not allow a diminution of their position and the kind of power and clout they wield within the military. That‘s bureaucratic politics and it is understandable.

And therefore, we are at an impasse, as it were. I mean I think many people even in this government, which I don‘t find particularly clued in in military and strategic terms, agree and concede that something needs to be done. But something this drastic – and they consider this rather radical – is, I think, beyond the pale as far as they‘re concerned – beyond the pale because of bureaucratic interests that oppose such consolidation and loss of flag rank billets.
But I think gestures of this kind would really begin to see change on the Pakistani army‘s part. I mean, what are the Pakistani army people responsible going to make of these gestures that are unilateral, that demand nothing in terms of what Pakistan should do? They can do what they want; they can build up their armored, mechanized corps even further if they want to.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

This is really more than enough.
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Re: Dr. Bharat Karnad: Guest Speaker at BRF NJ MEET Nov 13 2

Post by Rudradev »

Here is the video presentation of Bharat Karnad's talk at the Bharat-Rakshak meet on Nov 13, 2011. The link is a playlist, the videos will play in sequence on clicking it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia3SFPG ... 052&lf=BFp
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