JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

I have a few questions on the F-136 -

1) Where was the 3 billion i R&D going to come from? Given that the program put a cap on development money, requiring the program to do with what was allocated after the initial rise in R&D.

2) Where was the 2-3 Billion going to come that was required to set up a production facility and create an alternative production line

3) Current NG engine costs are stated to be about the same for a Variable Cycle Engine program (Around 800 million already spent, 1.2 billion allocated with another 1 billion going into a currently unknown program that begins once the VCAT and AETD programs conclude). Where was the NG engine program going to receive money given that both P&W and GE would have been working extensively on providing for the F35.

4) Why did the program hold a formal competition, evaluate the F-135 and F-136 and then choose a winner if the looser was to be given a backdoor entry anyway?


Extensive cost cutting exercises are going on to bring down the cost ,hopefully of "delivering a 5th-gen aircraft at 4th-gen prices"
Its called the The Blueprint for Affordability initiative by Lockheed, Northrop Grumman and BAE. P&W is running a separate program to cut costs with the target to get costs of the F-135 down to the levels of the last batch of F-119 i.e around 10 million an engine.
However,the last engine fire incident has been described as "catastrophic"
Catastrophic for who? The AA27 aircraft or the program? This on the program -

Not interested in opening up talk for a second engine, "overall confident" in Pratt & Whitney F135 engine

Frank Kendall

The head of Pentagon acquisition told reporters here today that “we do not see at this point what I call a systemic problem” resulting from the F-35A fire that led to the grounding of the fleet.

Frank Kendall

Inspections of the F-35 fleet’s engines had not turned up similar problems

Frank Kendall

There is a growing body of evidence that this is not a systemic, major design problem, that the problem is a manageable problem

Frank Kendall
The repeated problems with the same part of the engine may be indications of a serious design and structural problem with the F-135 engine
From what has come out of the people in the decision loop, the two incidents are not connected.
Also, the lack of reliability will contribute to low service ability and to high operating and support costs of the F-35 fleets in several countries putting more pressure on the low defence budgets
Despite of issues in the development phase, where issues are the norm not the exception, the engine has maintained a 98% mission availability rate over 15000 hours of operations both at the test and operational units.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

I think the alternative engine thinking is Philip's imagination - cannot find any ref in a AWST article - yet.

on "F-35 Report: overview of problems with F-135 engine".......................... I shudder to think what the new engine for the PAK-FA may have in store. The old one has produced a few surprises already. I suspect such incidences add to what the IAF has already said.

And, finally, AMCA ............................ not going to be easy. IMVVVHO, a good, viable Indian "5th Gen" - be it the FGFA or the AMCA - will be around 2030ish.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Philip »

AWST 14/7/14. If the engine fire was no big deal then this wouldn't be happening.I quote again.
However, after a week the Pentagon said it still had not found the cause of the fire, that the engine was the cause (not the Integrated Power Pack) and the technical air worthiness authorities of the Department of the Air Force and Department of the Navy issued a directive to ground the F-35 fleet based on initial findings from this runway fire incident. Additional inspections of F-35 engines had been ordered, and return to flight would be determined based on inspection results and analysis of engineering data.
Investigation is said to be focused – again - to the third stage turbine of the F135 engine as the likely source of the fire. The third stage turbine is the second stage in the low-pressure turbine section and common to all F-135 variants – the F-35A, F-35B and F-35C versions.

Preparations continued for F-35 participation in international air shows in the United Kingdom, (RIAT 2014, Fairford and Farnborough). A final decision is expected July 10, 2014.

A spokeswoman of the Joint Program Office (JPO) told IHS Jane’s that they had “temporarily suspended” negotiations for the next lot of F-135 engines and that
Negotiations about the LRIP-8 series of F135 engines would resume when the scope of the latest engine issue and downstream effects would be known
From his one can see that the problem is serious as it affects all versions of the JSF.No one is doubting the capability of P&W to ultimately fix it,but the engine has had perennial problems as cab be seen from its history in my earlier comprehensive post,originating from as far back as 2007/8. Further delays will test the patience of US/NATO allies who've ordered the aircraft which is vital to their future air capability.As the report concludes,past time for the US govt. to kick ass with considerable force.

For the benefit of NR & co. here's the drift on the alt. engine controversy.

Axing The F-35's Alternative Engine Was An Incredibly Stupid Move

Tyler Rogoway
The DoD painted the F-35's alternative jet engine as a huge unneeded expense, one that was more about congressional pork than necessity or logic. Now with the fleet grounded due a mystery engine fire, we are reminded of how stupid it was to cancel the jet's other engine.
A Tail Of Two Engines...

The Joint Strike Fighter was envisioned with having two engine options since early on in the program's history. These included the F135, based on the F-22's Pratt & Whitney F119 turbofan and the General Electric/Rolls Royce F136 turbofan based on the competitor of the F119 during the Advanced Tactical Fighter program fly-off in the early 1990s, the General Electric F120.


Generally speaking, the F120 was known to have been the more advanced and innovative engine design when it was flown on the YF-23 and YF-22 ATF test aircraft. Although it was slightly heavier than the F119 it was said to have greater room for thrust upgrades in the future and excelled at high-altitude, high speed operations. In the end the USAF chose the F119 mainly because it presented less technological risk.

The ATF competition was held well over 20 years ago, and a lot has changed when it comes to engine technology and metallurgy since then. Yet, the Joint Strike Fighter's F120 derived F136 engine was seen by many as more advanced than the F-35's primary engine choice, the F135. None-the-less, the F135's predecessor was already nearing operation in the F-22 and it had years of federally funded development time under its belt in comparison to the F136.

This was not much of an issue during the early and mid-2000s as the JSF program progressed and funding to the F136 alternative engine continued to flow even though there were some sporadic calls for its cancellation. Once the F-35 program hit the rocks and became mired in weight issues, sliding timelines and broken budgets, along with the crash of the US economy towards the end of the decade, the "almost all my eggs in one basket" fighter concept turned into an "every last egg in one basket" fighter concept when the Pentagon and the Obama Administration began threatening to cancel the F136 alternative engine project once and for all.

The Obama Administration's call for canceling the F136 was not the first bit of turbulence the JSF's alternative engine program hit, in fact, threats of cancellation from one congressional committee or politico or another began as far back as the middle of the decade. I will spare you the massive soap opera like timeline, as you can get a good idea of it here. Yet by the late 2000s, then Secretary of Defense Robert Gates showcased the F136 program as needless waste, even though a clear majority in the defense analyst and journalism world saw it as an essential and stabilizing element of a program that was already viewed as extremely high-risk.

By the fall of 2011, the F136 development was over 80% complete and had about another $2B to go before wrapping up. Yet Washington went along with the Obama Administration's veto threats and the program was finally cancelled. Apparently, the thought that saving a couple billion dollars in the very near term was worth adding massive risk to an already very troubled and risky trillion and a half dollar weapons program, the biggest in the history of mankind.
Spend Two Billion Now, Save Billions Later...

The strangest thing about the cancellation of the F136 is that it defies exactly what the Pentagon learned during the "great engine war" of the mid 1980s and 1990s. This successful practice in choice driving increased efficiency, quality, capability, and lower costs saw the F-16's customers, and years later the F-15's customers for that matter, go from having only the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine option, to having a choice between it and the General Electric F110.


With the USAF soliciting bids from both engine manufacturers to outfit its yearly F-16 purchases, as well as foreign customers having the choice between both engines, the results were stunning according to the GAO:

Nearly 30 percent cumulative savings for acquisition costs
Roughly 16 percent cumulative savings for operations and support costs
Total savings of about 21 percent in overall life cycle costs.
More rapid improvement in both engine designs, including more thrust and "twice the life and much more durability"
Much higher product service from manufacturers

The fact that the USAF now had redundancy built into their fighter engine program was free.

So why, after such a successful hallmark program that not only saved money but created better, more powerful and reliable engines, with better product support from their suppliers, would the Defense Department think such a practice is a waste of money for the F-35

Even during the aforementioned "great engine wars" of the 1980s and 1990s, America had multiple fighter aircraft in production including the F-16, F-15, F/A-18, with many other fighter and attack aircraft in service with extensive rebuilding programs being offered by their manufacturers. The F-35, on the other hand, will most likely see no alternative manned fighter aircraft built in the US once it enters widespread use in the 2020s.

Such a meek indigenous fighter aircraft production outlook compounds the reality that the F-35 will only have a single engine option, even though it was built to "plug and play" either the F136 or the F135. This means that in the coming decades the vast majority of America's fighter fleet could be grounded at any given time due to engine issues, and considering the Pentagon has never asked for 40,000lbs of thrust out of a single turbofan from its contractors, this is real possibility.
The Jet Didn't Request, Design, Build & Procure Itself ...

Like so many things F-35, the flawed philosophy behind its genesis and its procurement are mainly to blame for its woes, not the resulting hardware alone. If you are going to have a one-size-fits all fighter jet that will take the place of many distinct types than you better at least build some sort of redundancy into the program wherever you can. Having an alternative engine available is one place where injecting some of this redundancy makes the most sense, especially since we were already heavily invested in it at the time of its late cancellation.

Surely the F-35 program will recover from its latest incident, although this one looks like it will be the first Class A mishap ($2M or more in damage) that the JSF program has experienced. What is worse is that the $120M F-35A involved was brand new and may not be rebuildable resulting in a total write-off. Additionally, this event comes at a time when the F-35 was supposed to make its much hyped international air show debut and first cross-ocean crossing to the UK, which is now in doubt. As a result, the "optics" of such a catastrophic event occurring at this highly publicized moment in the program's already troubled existence is less than ideal to say the least.

Assuming the engine issue that caused the recent F-35A fire are rectified without major refitting being needed, something that could put the program months further back on its already atrociously reformed developmental timeline, it is still a clear of reminder how the couple billion dollars that the F136 needed to finishing development was a relatively small price to pay for a large serving of redundancy and piece of mind. This is especially true considering that history has proven that a second engine will pay for itself over time and will result in a more capable and dependable fighter aircraft.

Let's say the F136 alternative engine program were restarted, and somehow the remaining unsunk development costs were never recouped through competition and its resulting efficiency, that couple billion bucks equals about one half of one percent of the entire F-35 procurement cost (close to $400B), and less than one fifth of one percent of the entire trillion and a half dollar F-35 program.

When you take a step back and look at those comparative figures, finishing development of the F136 is an incredible bargain for the DoD, the US Taxpayer and the Warfighter, and you don't have to be a jet engine scientist to figure it out.

Pictures via Lockheed Martin, DoD, GE and P&W
Tyler Rogoway is a defense journalist and photographer that maintains the website Foxtrot Alpha for Jalopnik.com
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/axing- ... 1601589678
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

This year in the Air force association conference, The USAF chief gave an excellent 1 hour long presentation. One of the things that struck was " Nice to have" vs " need to have". An alternative engine is a nice thing to have for the program management. It gives choice, keeps the vendors honest and drives competition. However the fact remains that the F-135 and P&W won the engine fight off and the F-136 program was an effort to keep GE alive through an entry into the program through the backdoor. Why compete then? Why not for the sake of risk also keep on funding Boeing and the X-32? Why stop at that, fund Northrop Grumman and the F-23 if nothing else but to keep Northrop as a prime contractor in the fast jet business (NG has a legacy that is enviable).

The R&D phase of the F-35 saw a 1 billion cost rise due to delays, and design changes that needed to be incorporated for a host of reasons well known in the media. At that point a decision was made by the politicians not to add any more money to this phase of the program. The JPO was given a choice, either fund R&D with the money you have i.e. get your house in order, or begin to reduce capability in order to stay within the development budget. The F-136 was cancelled to save 3 billion in direct developmental costs. Things that could be used on a host of other things. To this day, those that support the F-136 are unable to answer a simple question as to what capabilities would have to go in the EMD and SDD phase for the F-136 to be fully funded.

Then comes an overall debate into the propulsion budgeting. The F-135 in contrast to the F-136 was an extension of the F-119 program. General Electric chose to develop a clean sheet engine instead of pursuing an extension of the F-120. GE was not left in for dead with the F-136 cancelation. The design team transitioned almost immediately onto the ADVENT program, where P&W was not given a contract. GE Now has a 4 year head start and upwards of 500 Million dollars in government funded R&D compared to P&W when it comes to Variable Cycle engines which are one of the most important future propulsion technologies in the US department of Defense S&T budget.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

Philip,

It is nice to read such articles, but not nice to take them seriously.

Someone had to make a decision to decouple the F-136. It is just plain part of the process. That person is being paid to do so and one would expect that person to be qualified to do so.

As far as others, they are paid to write. which is fine too.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

There is a very strong case for the F-136. It keeps competition open for the future. Why does one stay with just the propulsion? The The MFR beat a 2nd generation AESA offering from Raytheon which at the time was rumored to have better performing T-R modules (MFR was the study that lead to the Apg-81 specs being written - the MFR T-R Modules were not the same as those on the Apg-81). Similarly Boeing has a better grasp of large industrial projects thanks to their commercial interests so they should have been allowed to pursue the X-32 development concurrently.

At the end it all boils down to money and risk. The F-135 is based on an in service, proven F-119 base although it is much upgraded especially materials and software (4 FADEC systems). The F-135 is in development phase and despite that, and despite the issues its fleet availability is very high (98%) and its cost is on a downward trajectory (although not as fast as the JPO would like). GE on the other hand has been given a lot of money to advance their R&D effort in the 6th generation engine designs and Variable Cycle engines, where they are well experience having chosen a Variable Cycle Engine for the ATF competition (F-120). In the end its about hard choices, and in the absence of a 3 billion dollar addition to the development budget the program's decision to cut the alternate engine, after the main engine had defeated it in a full and fair competition was a wise one.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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NRao
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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F-35 Cleared For Flight
FARNBOROUGH, England – The F-35 might make it to Farnborough after all.

A Pentagon official told Defense News that the F-35 fighter fleet has been cleared by air worthiness authorities. A decision on attending the show has not been made but the official said DoD is “hopeful” it can make the trip.

A statement released by Rear Admiral John Kirby, Pentagon Press Secretary, confirmed the news.

“Yesterday the air worthiness authorities for the U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force approved the F-35 fleet to return to flight,” Kirby said in the statement. “This is a limited flight clearance that includes an engine inspection regimen and a restricted flight envelope which will remain in effect until the root cause of the June 23 engine mishap is identified and corrected.”

“We remain hopeful that the F-35 can make an appearance at the Farnborough airshow. This information is an encouraging step, but no final decision has been made at this time.”

Safety remains the overriding priority. Additional information will be provided as it becomes available.”

Speaking at Farnborough, Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James said “If I was a betting woman, I’d say the odds just got better” for the plane to arrive at the show; an audience at the US international pavilion responded with a round of applause.

A Lockheed Martin spokesman pointed to Kirby’s statement but declined further comment, referring questions to the Pentagon.

“We have great confidence in the F135 engine powering the F-35, and we have worked very closely with DoD and the Services to return the aircraft to flying status,” Matthew Bates, Pratt spokesman, said in a statement. “It would be great for the jets to come to the Farnborough Air Show so the audience here can see the capabilities the F-35 brings to the US and our partners. Beyond that, any specific comment or announcement will have to come from the DoD or the MoD.”

The fact the jets would be cleared early Tuesday was actually predicted — or was it accidentally leaked? — yesterday by the official Facebook page of Naval Station Patuxent River, where four F-35Bs are standing by to make the trip to the UK.

The question of whether the plane would make it has been the talk of the show. Even executives for rival companies with no stake in the fifth-generation fighter have expressed hope the jet would make an appearance.

Four F-35Bs have been standing by at Naval Station Patuxent River ready to go. If the planes leave immediately, they could be ready to fly over Farnborough by Wednesday afternoon local time, although Thursday may make more sense logistically.

The F-35 fleet was grounded on July 3, the result of an ongoing investigation into an engine fire that heavily damaged an F-35A model known as AF-27. The grounding meant the jet missed its scheduled international debut at last weeks Royal International Air Tattoo, as well as the first two days of Farnborough.

The cause of the fire has been identified as excessive rubbing from a fan blade against part of an F135 engine, designed by Pratt & Whitney.

“There is a growing body of evidence that this is not a systemic, major design problem, that the problem is a manageable problem,” Frank Kendall, the Pentagon’s top acquisition official, told reporters Monday. “We have not found a similar problem on any of the other engines that are in service, so that’s encouraging.”

“At this stage in the game, I do not see this as any kind of major setback.”

Speaking this morning, Paul Adams, president of Pratt & Whitney, called the F135 an “extremely important” program for his company. The F-35 business is core to the future of Pratt’s military engine business unit.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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The main point being made out is that when you have all eggs in one fighter basket (JSF) ,as the JSF is replacing a number of legacy fighters (from the A-10,F-16,F-18) ,with no other fighter programmes at all and only one engine for that fighter ,a major problem with that engine risks everything. The JSF has to fly at Farnborough to restore confidence in allies and prospective buyers.One would certainly take the risk and do so.P&W have to get their act together fast though to avoid further delays in induction to the various services.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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One would certainly take the risk and do so.
The Risk would have been there had the air worthiness authority been overruled, and just the 5 B versions allowed to proceed to the UK for air shows. This has not happened. What has happened is quite routine as per the SOP within the body that deals with such issues. First the fighter in question AA27 was examined, fault isolated and provided to the 3 services and the Integrated test team. That was followed by a point by point inspection on each and every one of the 98 F-35's currently cleared to fly. Once the inspections were finished, the ball was back to the authority to determine whether the fault was a systemic problem or an isolated event. Only then was the clearance to lift the grounding given. This is fairly consistent with what has happened in the past with the F-16 grounding both in the US and outside of it (IDF).
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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from the A-10,F-16,F-18


The problem is only bad if one looks at it that way. The F-16's and F-18's will be in service till 2030 and beyond. Hundreds of F-16's are receiving the SABR AESA and other enhancements including LPI data links, ICP overhaul and mission software. The F-15E fleet is receiving the APG-82 AESA radar along with other ICP enhancements. The F-15C fleet already has the AESA operational. The F-18SH is geting enhancement including EW capability to its Apg-79 radar, IRST 21 and a whole hosts of enhancements have been developed such as CFT's, 5th generation cockpit and enhanced engines. There are more than 400 AESA equipped Super Hornets operational that would last past 2030. The F-18SH will be replaced by the Future FA - X fighter for the USN. The F-22 raptor is there, and the USAF plans to enter into the F-X program to replace it along with the F-15E fleet. The A-10's are currently scheduled to remain in service till 2030 unless they are mothballed next year. The A-10 is a one trick pony, even if the F-35 fleet is grounded, the A-10 cannot help out in any task other then CAS. An alternate engine would come, just not with the current tech. Expect the F-35 to utilize the Future Variable cycle engine for obvious reasons.



The point about stealthy fleet of fighters and attack aircraft is significant. The way things are done currently with more then 90% of the fleet being legacy is that much of the forward deployed fleet is tasked with protecting the strike and air superiority package. One needs electronic attack assets, dedicated ISR assets, huge AEW presence, plenty of tankers not only for the support aircraft but also for the main package that needs the higher speed and After burner time to defeat some of the threats. This reduces considerably the force package that can actually conduct offensive missions given that basing and deployment is at a premium. Fast forward to a time when more than 2/3 of the fleet is stealthy and you can considerably shrink the support footprint especially when the F-22 and F-35 are powerful ISR tools with the sensor suite and the CNS inherent to these aircraft. The intensity of offensive operations in an IAD rich environment is going to be considerably boosted with the same logistical footprint as earlier. The real benefits come when there is a smaller logistical footprint due to basing restrictions. Here the VLO fleet will really shine compared to what has happened in the past.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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Philip wrote:The main point being made out is that when you have all eggs in one fighter basket (JSF) ,as the JSF is replacing a number of legacy fighters (from the A-10,F-16,F-18) ,with no other fighter programmes at all and only one engine for that fighter ,a major problem with that engine risks everything. The JSF has to fly at Farnborough to restore confidence in allies and prospective buyers.One would certainly take the risk and do so.P&W have to get their act together fast though to avoid further delays in induction to the various services.
Multiple "risk"s.

Using a single engine (especially fro Canada), using one engine vendor, clubbing multiple roles into one, etc. Risks? Yes, they all are. But all of them are what is called calculated risks. Does not mean that they will not encounter failure, they most certainly will.

Only thing is that the risks in such a venture - bleeding edge - is much higher than in one where known technologies are being used. Everyone accepts that. And, it includes "failures" - time and cost impacts due to such events.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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NRao wrote:
Philip wrote:The main point being made out is that when you have all eggs in one fighter basket (JSF) ,as the JSF is replacing a number of legacy fighters (from the A-10,F-16,F-18) ,with no other fighter programmes at all and only one engine for that fighter ,a major problem with that engine risks everything. The JSF has to fly at Farnborough to restore confidence in allies and prospective buyers.One would certainly take the risk and do so.P&W have to get their act together fast though to avoid further delays in induction to the various services.
Multiple "risk"s.

Using a single engine (especially fro Canada), using one engine vendor, clubbing multiple roles into one, etc. Risks? Yes, they all are. But all of them are what is called calculated risks. Does not mean that they will not encounter failure, they most certainly will.

Only thing is that the risks in such a venture - bleeding edge - is much higher than in one where known technologies are being used. Everyone accepts that. And, it includes "failures" - time and cost impacts due to such events.
The one engine vs 2 debate will go on forever. It was the biggest issue with the F-16, yet more then 4000 have been built and have served their users remarkably well. As far as Canadian requirements are concerned, its also a non issue. Forces around the world will be using the F-35 over vast areas without runway support for emergencies (pacific). The F-35's will be heading to Alaska a few years after their IOC.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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JSF not to perform at farnborough. Although its a "go" from the clearence authority that lifted the grounding, the program is still limited to the flight envelope including maximum endurance, AOA (no more then 18 degrees) , roll rate and speed until the final report regarding the incidence is presented to the air worthiness authority based on which flight restrictions would be lifted. It was thought that the endurance limit would be relaxed for the 5 jets, but safety has been given a priority as Frank Kendall and Christopher Bogdon have been saying throughout the week.


Anyhow the display the F-35 was to perform at RIAT and Farnborough was itself a limited one due to the full envelope not released to in service jets, but it was still fairly good and demonstrated the STOVL capability nicely.



One of the best point by point counters to most of the non sense David Axe throws around on the F-35, or most of the other defense related topics in his click-bait blog.

David Axe on the F-35: Still Making S**T Up…

This is not the first time I’ve 'Fisked' the poster boy for Punk Journalism. I’m sure it won’t be the last. His 'piece' here reeks royally, but not to worry-- I take it all apart below for your edification and enlightenment. Axe's labors are in pink italics, mine are in black.

We begin.....

The U.S. military has grounded all its new F-35 Joint Strike Fighters following an incident on June 23, when one of the high-tech warplanes caught fire on the runway of a Florida air base. The no-fly order — which affects at least 50 F-35s at training and test bases in Florida, Arizona, California and Maryland — began on the evening of July 3 and continued through July 11.


I know “attention span” isn’t one of Axe’s strong points, but there have been at least a hundred F-35s delivered and most news stories have mentioned 97-98 aircraft have been affected. How uninformed is Axe anyway?

All those F-35s sitting idle could be a preview of a future in which potentially thousands of the Pentagon’s warplanes can’t reliably fly.

To be fair, the Pentagon routinely grounds warplanes on a temporary basis following accidents and malfunctions to buy investigators time to identify problems and to give engineers time to fix them. But there’s real reason to worry. The June incident might reflect serious design flaws that could render the F-35 unsuitable for combat.


Yet there has been no talk of such a worry throughout the life of the safety stand-down-then-grounding. In fact, the reports have been increasingly positive that there is in fact NOT a ‘serious design flaw’ related to this incident. So no, there’s NO “real reason to worry” as long as you deal in facts and not your, or your fellow traveler’s fetid imaginations.

For starters, the Lockheed Martin-built F-35 — which can avoid sensor detection thanks to its special shape and coating — simply doesn’t work very well. The Pentagon has had to temporarily ground F-35s no fewer than 13 times since 2007, mostly due to problems with the plane’s Pratt &Whitney-made F135 engine, in particular, with the engines’ turbine blades. The stand-downs lasted at most a few weeks.

DE-VEL-OP-MENT David!

Repeat that faster and faster until you recognize the word, and then look up what it means. The F-35 is still integrating changes that have already been identified and until development is complete, further changes may come as well. Axe also doesn’t know dip-squat about Low Observability, but we won’t let that distract us.

“The repeated problems with the same part of the engine may be indications of a serious design and structural problem with the F135 engine,” said Johan Boeder, a Dutch aerospace expert and editor of the online publication JSF News.

Except!
1) Problems haven’t been found ‘with the same part of the engine’ and

2) I can’t think of any of the ‘problems’ lately that have been found to be ‘design-related’.

The last I can think of is the shaft length/spacer design for the lift fan, and that was a relatively simple fix. As an aside, quoting an un-cleared, uninvolved, and therefore uninformed ‘engineer’ with a website is also just about the epitome of a Fallacious Appeal to Authority.

Pratt & Whitney has already totally redesigned the F135 in an attempt to end its history of frequent failures. ….


Put delicately, That’s a complete and total lie. The design remains fundamentally the same since it was first built. It is the same two-shaft engine with a three-stage fan and six-stage high pressure compressor. The hot section still has an annular combustor with a single-stage high pressure turbine unit and a two-stage low pressure turbine. The afterburner still consists of a variable converging-diverging nozzle. The design has been tweaked (details and materials) for reliability and durability…just like every other turbine engine development since the history of turbine engine development began.
Axe oversteps to feed the low information crowd on this point. The lie either reeks of desperation or supreme confidence that his mouth-breathing base won’t bother to call him out on such flat-out Bullsh*t-- because is suits them just fine either way.

But there’s only so much engineers can do. In a controversial move during the early stages of the F-35′s development, the Pentagon decided to fit the plane with one engine instead of two. Sticking with one motor can help keep down the price of a new plane. But in the F-35′s case, the decision proved self-defeating.

Assertion of belief unsupported by fact. The single engine approach was an affordability (procuring and maintaining half as many engines as a two engine plane) decision at the start.

Now Axe follows up with some ‘narrative’:

That’s because the F-35 is complex — the result of the Air Force, Marines and Navy all adding features to the basic design…..

Sheesh. More Axe B.S.
The F-35 is as complex as it needs to be as far as the users are concerned, and he can’t name anything on any of the variants that adversely affect the other variants. The irony here is that if the F-35 was a two engine plane, it WOULD be necessarily more complex.

In airplane design, such complexity equals weight. The F-35 is extraordinarily heavy for a single-engine plane, weighing as much as 35 tons with a full load of fuel.

Complexity does not necessarily equal weight; complexity can in fact reduce weight. Proof please? And the F-35 is not 'extraordinarily heavy (see F-16 data that follows), But moving on...

In structures, a truss is more complex than a beam but can weigh much less for the same purpose. In components, a multifunction box (GPS-INS) can weigh less than having separate INS and GPS boxes (incidentally, the F-35 uses separate, less-complex GPS and INS components).

Axe is therefore making another sweeping generalization on a topic for which he possesses no consequential knowledge, and is so typical of Punk Journalism. He uses this complexity-weight ‘Strawman’ to build his narrative further:

By comparison, the older F-15 fighter weighs 40 tons. But it has two engines. To remain reasonably fast and maneuverable, the F-35′s sole F135 engine must generate no less than 20 tons of thrust — making it history’s most powerful fighter motor.

An 'interesting' comparison, selected no doubt to feed the meme machine, and executed with complete ineptitude from an engineering perspective. (But probably counts as a profundity to the Ignorami.)

The only F-15 variant that weighs around ’40 tons’ is a max-loaded F-15 Strike Eagle, the air-to-mud optimized variant of the F-15 air-superiority fighter. The F-35 weighs ‘a lot’ for the same reason as a fully loaded F-15E would weigh ‘a lot’, and at the same point in time (takeoff or after aerial refuel): it is loaded down with fuel and weapons.

The air-superiority version of the F-15 would be much more lightly loaded, but….. so….. what?
Why not compare say, a ‘fully loaded’ F-16's weight and power to weight with an F-35? The F-16C Block 50 has a max takeoff weight of 37K lbs (18.5 tons) and an engine that ‘only’ produces 27K lbs of thrust.

Alternatively, we may want to compare same generations of technology. So why not compare the F-35 power/weight with the F-22’s? Especially since the F135 is a derivative of the F119 in the F-22?

Answer: It doesn’t support Axe’s little lamentations and story line

All that thrust results in extreme levels of stress on engine components. It’s no surprise, then, that the F-35 frequently suffers engine malfunctions...

No, not really…since the ‘frequency’ is more in Axe’s imagination than reality. Maybe he should add jet engine technology to that long list of things he knows nothing about?

…Even with that 20 tons of thrust, the new radar-dodging plane is still sluggish.
The F-35 “is a dog … overweight and underpowered,” according to Winslow Wheeler, director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Project on Government Oversight in Washington.


Winslow Wheeler is a paid hack for Strauss (first name Phil), trust-fund baby and itinerant ‘photographer’ who by the way is an anti-defense sponsor of Wheeler’s work for ages now. First at the Center for Defense (Dis-)Information and now under the POGO umbrella. Strauss is Board Chairman of that (sarc) bastion of Pro-American thought (/sarc) 'Mother Jones'. [But don't question their 'patriotism'!]

I think all indications are that the F-35 is anything BUT a dog. But then, I’ve done the math.


In 2008, two analysts at the RAND Corporation, a California think-tank that works closely with the military, programmed a computer simulation to test out the F-35′s fighting ability in a hypothetical air war with China…

This is an obfuscating oversimplification to say the least. RAND did not sponsor what produced the now-infamous slide-show, and RAND disavowed any so-called ‘findings’. In short it was a ‘rogue operation’ at best.

…The results were startling.


NO. The results were deterministic Garbage-In Garbage-Out.

They are now known to have been based on ‘simulations’ run on 'Harpoon 3' (yes….. the video game) using performance, tactics and strategy ‘data’ of unknown pedigree by people who had no current working knowledge of the classified and/or technical data required to realistically model the ‘problem’ in the first place.

So should we dismiss Axe for being incompetently uninformed on the topic or for lying about it? IMHO, either one is unforgivable.

“The F-35 is double-inferior,” John Stillion and Harold Scott Perdue concluded in their written summary of the war game, later leaked to the press. The new plane “can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run,” they warned.

John Stillion left RAND for ‘greener pastures’ shortly after this cockup, and the reader can make their own assumptions as to perhaps “why”.
Stillion was supposed to be doing a study on what he is perhaps best known for: Airbase Vulnerability. I own some of his stuff on the topic and it is generally very good. IF he was suckered into an anti-JSF operation as part of that, then that’s tragic. But if that brief was his production he is still wrong in how he thinks about modern air combat.

His experience, his air combat worldview as came out in the briefing: that very much of a SEA back-seater. Given post-SEA air combat experiences, it very much looks like the rules for success have progressed way beyond Boyd’s first-generation-think on Energy-Maneuverability, so he should have showed a little humility in recognizing the possibility he was perhaps ignorant of important facts.

Yet the F-35 is on track to become by far the military’s most numerous warplane. It was designed to replace almost all current fighters in the Air Force and Marine Corps and complement the Navy’s existing F/A-18 jets. The Pentagon plans to acquire roughly 2,400 of the radar-evading F-35s in coming decades, at a cost of more than $400 billion.

Like it or not, the stealthy F-35 is the future of U.S. air power. There are few alternatives. Lockheed Martin’s engineers have done millions of man-hours of work on the design since development began in the 1990s. Starting work on a new plane now would force the Defense Department to wait a decade or more, during which other countries might pull ahead in jet design. Russia, China and Japan are all working on new stealth fighter models.


So then, what’s the point of all Axe’s B.S.?

The Pentagon sounds guardedly optimistic about the current F-35 grounding. “Additional inspections of F-35 engines have been ordered,” Rear Admiral John Kirby, a military spokeman [sic] said, “and return to flight will be determined based on inspection results and analysis of engineering data.”

If Axe had bothered to read Reuters the day before he would have found Defense Undersecretary Frank Kendall saying :

…..the grounding had halted testing but he did not view the incident as a "fundamental setback" for the $400 billion program, the Pentagon's biggest, which still has about 40 percent of developmental testing to complete.
….. the engine had suffered two issues involving fan blades in the past few years, but they appeared unrelated and not systemic to the airplane.
"None of those things that have happened, including this recent one as far as I know, suggests that we have a fundamentally flawed design," Kendall said.
….detailed inspections of engines on the fleet of 97 F-35s already built had not shown signs of the kind of excessive rubbing founded on the engine that broke apart, although there were signs of milder rubbing in several other engines
. … the evidence being compiled did not point to a systemic issue, but the analysis was still going on. In this case, engineers found evidence of significant rubbing by the fan blades against a cowl.
"We’re not noticing it throughout the fleet," he said.
"The design allows for a limited degree of rubbing, but it was enough in this case to cause a structural reaction that ultimately led to failure."
If Axe read more, the rest of us wouldn’t have to suffer through his Beta-boy handwringing:

Minor fixes might get America’s future warplane flying again soon — for a while. But fundamental design flaws could vex the F-35 for decades to come, forcing the Pentagon to suspend flying far too often for the majority of its fighter fleet, potentially jeopardizing U.S. national security.

….and monkeys might jump out of Axe’s nether regions.

If it is between Axe’s ‘potentials', ‘coulds’ and ‘mights’, and F-35 evidence to date, all indications are we should expect those monkeys first.

My interest now is seeing who picks up Axe's ramblings and repeats the same uninformed drivel Axe just spewed.
Y. Kanan
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Y. Kanan »

Viv S wrote:Also, which aircraft available to India, offers the Tejas' capability at a comparable cost ($26 million)?
I guess I'm out of date; I thought the LCA program was pretty much hanging in limbo at the moment.

Heck at $26 million unit cost, the LCA would be a bargain if it were even close to the capability of an F-16C.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

As far as Canadian requirements are concerned, its also a non issue. Forces around the world will be using the F-35 over vast areas without runway support for emergencies (pacific). The F-35's will be heading to Alaska a few years after their IOC.
The issue - as was explained to me by a RCAF person - is not one of runways, etc.

It is about survival. The key factor being the time it takes to rescue a downed pilot, especially one who lands in a body of water and worse still in the dead of winter.

The associated risk for a single engined plane is too great for those on the ground.

A dual engined plane also carries a risk, but much less. As he said, a dual engined plane will reduce the time taken to rescue.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:However,the last engine fire incident has been described as "catastrophic".
The engine fire, far from being catastrophic, will have little impact on the program as a whole.
The Israeli JSFs have a little extra why their birds cost extra.A fig. mentioned is $145M.Israel can be sure to order extra aircraft once they've integrated the first lot.
$145 million is the package cost not the flyaway cost. Flyaway cost is $96 million for aircraft delivered from LRIP 8, 9 & 10.
One major drawback with both the F-22 and JSF is that they can't share data with each other and with 4th-gen birds.Link 16 which can be used is akin to "turning on a light bulb in the sky" and defeats the stealth profile of both aircraft.
The F-22 and F-35 are the only aircraft in the world with LPI data-links (though the Gripen E will reportedly also feature something similar). And the F-35 can employ the Link 16 in burst transmissions without significantly compromising its position.
This is apparently why the F-22 was not used in Libya,unable to transfer data to "bomb trucks",lesser 4th-gen aircraft .
The F-22 wasn't used because the F-22 wasn't required. The Libyans had a third rate air defence system and an air force that was practically grounded for the duration of the conflict. (The F-22 can carry out strike missions without support from 4th gen aircraft.)
Israel is trying to develop a 600 gal stealthy fuel tank which will enhance the limited range of the JSF-I.The hope is that the tank can be used for the "non-stealthy" part of the mission while boosting its range.
At 1,150km, the F-35A has a larger combat radius on internal fuel than most of its peers.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

One major drawback with both the F-22 and JSF is that they can't share data with each other and with 4th-gen birds.Link 16 which can be used is akin to "turning on a light bulb in the sky" and defeats the stealth profile of both aircraft.
Some clarification is needed regarding this. Currently, the F-22 has the IFDL (Intra flight data link) that has been flying in operational jets since 2001 and IOC'd in 2004/5. Its a first generation SA sharing LPI data link built around the F-22 software. The MADL is a much better, more sophisticated data link that kicks the IFDL up a notch. The plan has always been to make MADL and its NG version the standard for the Stealth fleet. The F-22, B-2, and the F-35 along with UCAV's (perhaps the RQ180) will all get the MADL. F-22 was to get MADL in increment 3.2 but since it was an "under testing product" the program did not want to assume costs that could be spread out to other enhancements to the raptor. Currently most of the MADL testing is underway or complete with the 4 ship data sharing test soon to be performed (was to be performed on the trip to the UK). After MADL is fully developed and fielded on operational F-35's the F-22 and the B-2 will form plans to incorporate it into their systems.

Concurrently, there are plans to enhance Link-16 and add LPI, directional elements to it. Link 16 is far from dead, as its the NATO standard and the primary data link for fighters like the Rafale and pretty much the entire NATO fleet.

This takes care of the 5th - 5th generation interoperability. 5th to 4th generation operability is being studied at the moment with solutions from two teams currently being tested and evaluated. Once a firm decision is taken contracts would be awarded and SI work would be performed. The SI work won't be at the pace the europeans operate at and should finish quite quickly especially given that the F-16 and F-15E fleets would be undergoing upgrades around the same time.

http://investor.northropgrumman.com/mob ... id=1934505

Pentagon proves 4th- to 5th-gen combat aircraft comms
Key Points
The development effort was sponsored by the OSD
Jetpack can be installed inside a weapons bay or pod-mounted
A new communications capability enables fifth-generation combat aircraft to share information with fourth-generation aircraft, prime contractor Northrop Grumman announced on 27 May.

The Joint Capability Technology Demonstration (JCTD) programme, or Jetpack JCTD, allows the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter to communicate directly and securely with fourth-generation combat aircraft such as the F-15, F-16 and F-18. Northrop Grumman demonstrated Jetpack during a series of operational flight tests in late March at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, and in early April at Edwards Air Force Base, California, according to the company.

Previously, F-22s and F-35s had to communicate with fourth-generation aircraft through an intermediary system - either an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft or a communications satellite - in order to maintain their stealthiness.

The development effort was sponsored by the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD), the US Air Force (USAF) Air Combat Command, Pacific Command and OSD's Defense Microelectronics Activity.

During the April flight tests, Jetpack validated the ability to simultaneously link and translate both the F-35's Multifunction Advanced Data Link and the F-22's Intra-Flight Data Link to common Link 16 messages. Link 16 is a jam-resistant, high-speed digital data link used by NATO.

Jetpack is built for application in internally-mounted or pod-mounted installations. Honeywell provides Jetpack's dual-band advanced tactical data link antennas to Northrop Grumman as part of the system. Northrop Grumman began demonstrating fifth-to-fourth generation communications capabilities during a series of joint operational exercises in April 2010.

COMMENT
Jetpack was a new-start JCTD in fiscal year 2012 (FY 2012) and received USD7.848 million that year, USD5.865 million in FY 2013, and USD2.07 million in FY 2014-a total of USD15.783 million in funding to date, according to Pentagon budget documents. It is not immediately clear what the nature of any follow-on procurement programme might be.

Northrop Grumman has taken the requisite hardware/software architecture and offered it for other programmes and environments such as the Freedom architecture. Freedom was the basis for the Airborne & Maritime/Fixed Station Joint Tactical Radio System (AMF JTRS) development until that programme was restructured. Freedom was the basis for the Northrop Grumman candidate for the US Army Mid-Tier Networking Vehicular Radio (MNVR).

According to the Pentagon's FY2015 budget proposal, the Jetpack demonstration effort will now transition to the Boeing F-15C Eagle fleet. The mention of transition to the F-15C community implies that the Freedom 550 terminal would replace the MIDS LVT-3s on the F-15Cs. This would allow F-15Cs to talk to F-22s and F-35s, but the stealth platforms still could not talk to each other or to any platform that did not have a Freedom 550 terminal.
These are just some that are fleet wide. Fleet specific data link efforts include this -

https://www.rockwellcollins.com/sitecor ... ology.aspx

Elements for interoperability with this will be added to the F-35C by block 4 to fully incorporate it into the NIFC-CA fighting concept.

However, the F-35C will need some data-link modifications, which are expected for the jet’s Block IV configuration, to perform the role the Navy intends for it. While the current version of the Link-16 data-link does not have enough of a low probably of intercept capability that would allow it to be used inside highly contested airspace, the Navy is working on a solution.

“They’re working right now, because it is a follow-on development item, Lockheed Martin is working with other contractors to make that capability happen,” Manazir said. “We need to have that link capability that the enemy can’t find and then it can’t jam.”


Data linking is a complex to execute and design capability. Not all aircraft require the same data linking capability to be interoperable. An F-35 with its fusion system has to send processed, targets to 4th generation aircraft that lack the fusion capability of the F-35. On the other hand the MADL among F-35's can share raw data and process it in real time using the CNI and common fusion systems. Similarly, there are LPI restrictions on LAN's as these are your 4 ship or more data links for aircraft in the threat zone. Wider areas for aircraft back in the loop do not require such stringent LPI features and can therefore handle higher data loads, and transfer them in all directions. Detecting data links is not very easy either, especially when the task is to do so over a large field of operation, just as Jamming the entire airspace is not practical (hence tactical jamming). Go further back, and you can transfer huge amounts of data to a large number of platforms without worrying about jamming of data links or about intercepts or giving away the position.

The F-35 CNI suite has been specifically designed to incorporate user defined data links or user specific data links. Israel is going to add its own WAN that it has standardized into its air force while still retaining MADL. The USN will be incorporating there own TTNT enabler for NIFCCA soon after IOC. The CNI suite is open system and has growth room in plenty.

Image
Image
Israel is trying to develop a 600 gal stealthy fuel tank which will enhance the limited range of the JSF-I.The hope is that the tank can be used for the "non-stealthy" part of the mission while boosting its range.
The limited range meme returns :D

Lets talk about range shall we.

Arm an F-16 (What the IDF has in plenty) with 4 missiles and 2 bombs, 2 tanks, one SNIPER pod and tell me how far it goes when confronted against an enemy equipped with an S-300 IAD setup with a bunch of older Air defense systems thrown in. Also tell me how much reserve fuel the F-16 would require to have on it, to fly around SAM rings or to be on the safe side if it is detected and "charged at" by enemy air fighters. For the sake of conversation let those enemy fighters be Mig-29's armed with 4 BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles and nothing else. What tactics will the F-16 Blk 50 use to defeat the IAD's. Low or High? If Low, factor in the extra fuel required to fly real low and have enough gas to burn up the engine periodically to make a dash. Then tell me how the F-16 will maneuver against targets with a superior fuel load (intercept) and with full Ground based radar cover.

Bottom line - Stealth aircraft fly optimized routes where fuel burn is less. They need to maneuver far less due to the shrinking affect (on engagement envelopes of both fighters and ground based systems) of Low observability. They need to carry all the fuel internally, but require less missiles for self protection because on a strike mission their stealth and greater SA allows them to escape undetected.

Given the much decreased support (Supporting EW, ISR etc) for 5th gen aircraft, unless absolutely required tankers are better then drop tanks unless they can be jettisoned with the pylons as they are on the f-22

Image

2 Bombs, 3 Tanks+CFT's, 4 Missiles + Pods. How survivable? Especially against sophisticated air defenses, with a threat of being intercepted by aircraft like the F-15SA, Eurofighter Typhoon etc? These configurations are OK for bombing runs in GAZA or even daredevil runs when no other options are available, but they are not going to be realistic in a full blown conflict against a near peer. The IDF wishes to use the F-35 in this configuration since there is no F-15E replacement for them, so they'll put tanks on it. They won't use those tanks for the VLO missions.

P.s - Dropping tanks may result in a mission failure = job done for the enemy fighters
Last edited by brar_w on 16 Jul 2014 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Another glimpse of what would have happened at RIAT and Farnborough. F-35B's air show demo from a few months ago (with the envelope restriction)

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by TSJones »

^^^^^IIRC that was done at MCAS Yuma, AZ. At least it looked like Yuma.
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Its says as much in the video description :)
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Philip »

This contradicts the AWST 14/7/14 report which says that the F-22 and JSF can't exchange data without compromising their stealth if they use Link 16.Both stealth birds reportedly cannot do the same with 4th-gen aircraft other than Link16 .

Latest update:
http://news.usni.org/2014/07/15/f-35-cl ... 234c8f82d4
Update: F-35 Cleared to Fly With Restrictions, U.K. Air Show Appearance Cancelled

By: Dave Majumdar
Published: July 15, 2014
F-35A Lightning IIs from the 58th Fighter Squadron, 33rd Fighter Wing, Eglin AFB, Fla., perform an aerial refueling mission May 14, 2013, off the coast of northwest Florida. US Air Force Photo

This post was updated to include additional Tuesday afternoon comments from Rear Adm. John Kirby.

The Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter fleet has been cleared to fly within a restricted flight envelope after the jets were grounded following a June 23 fire that severely damaged an aircraft on take-off.

A problem with the jet’s Pratt & Whitney F135 engine caused the fire.

“Yesterday the air worthiness authorities for the U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force approved the F-35 fleet to return to flight,” said Pentagon press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby in a statement.
“This is a limited flight clearance that includes an engine inspection regimen and a restricted flight envelope which will remain in effect until the root cause of the June 23 engine mishap is identified and corrected.”

Undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics Frank Kendall told reporters in London that the problem that caused the fire does not appear to be a fleet wide issue.

“We don’t see at this point what I call a systemic problem,” he said.

According to Kendall, the fire was a caused by fan blades on an integrally bladed rotor (IBR) rubbing against the engine casing. The blades were in the third stage of the F135’s turbine section. While some level of rubbing is acceptable, this particular engine was operating beyond tolerances.

Former Pentagon official Pierre Sprey, and frequent F-35 critic, said that micro-cracks developed in the blades before the rubbing led to a catastrophic failure.

“If the micro-cracks came first and very slightly elongated the fan blades, the rubbing plus heating that led to the ultimate disintegration would have been a consequence of far-to-early fatigue micro-cracks–and that means a redesign and requalification of the third stage,” he told USNI News.

The Pentagon said on Tuesday the F-35 will not make an appearance debut at the Farnborough airshow outside of London this week.


“I can confirm that the Department of Defense in concert with our partners in the U.K. has decided not to send Marine Corps and U.K. F-35B aircraft across the Atlantic to participate in the Farnborough air show,” Kirby said in a Tuesday afternoon press conference.
“This decision was reached after a consultation with senior leaders and airworthiness authorities, despite the decision by airworthiness authorities to clear the aircraft to return to flight — to limited flight.”

The fleet-wide grounding of the F-35 raises questions about the wisdom 2011 cancellation of a backup engine for the aircraft called the General Electric F136.


The original idea was that Pratt & Whitney and General Electric would complete to supply engines keeping prices down and production quality high, however then-secretary of defense Robert Gates cancelled that effort due to cost. Having two engines would also mean that the entire fleet could not be grounded due to an engine malfunction.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

This contradicts the AWST 14/7/14 report which says that the F-22 and JSF can't exchange data without compromising their stealth if they use Link 16
I'l try once again -

- F-22 has IFDL, Its LPI/LPD. F-22 also has Link 16 but its receive only. The entire concept of the F-22 is to go it alone (remember its motto from inception : Not a Pound from Air to Ground)

- F-35 has MADL. F-35 has bi directional Link 16 i.e. It can send and receive data using the system

- F-22 and the entire fleet is going to get MADL at a future date. MADL was scheduled on the F-22 and B-2 NOW but the f-22 program deferred it to a point in time when the F-22 program would not have to bear the costs of developing the system. Given the funding crunch for F-22 SI work the program let the F-35 develop and mature the system before embarking on adding it to the CNI system of its own.

MADL will take care of LPI comms between F-22, B-2 and F-35

Then comes Fifth generation to fourth generation comms - Programs, are in the works. Two competing systems are being looked at and are flying. The Jet pack solution has been provided to you. The systems will be tested, evaluated and one would be chosen for integration onto the fleet once it is fully developed and tested. The problem is with the limited ability of the legacy fleet and not the F-35. The legacy fleet has to be able to receive MADL.

USAF seeks information on connecting 4th and 5th gen fighters
The US Air Force is seeking information on a "communications gateway" that would one day be able to digitally link fourth and fifth-generation fighters inside a highly contested threat environment.

"This RFI [request for information] seeks information concerning the availability of a system at a Technology Readiness Level (TRL) of 6 or above that allows 5th Generation fighters to digitally connect to and exchange data with 4th Generation fighters and other platforms when operating in highly contested regions," reads a USAF document.

The USAF hopes to eventually procure a system that would "improve battlespace awareness through sensor target data sharing in order to attain a real-time Common Tactical Picture/Common Operational Picture (CTP/COP)," the RFI reads. The data-link would also increase the survivability of friendly aircraft by improving mutual support and reducing fratricide incidents. It would also "increase targeting efficiency through the exchange of engagement status information to diminish redundant weapons expenditure," the document reads. It should also make the combination of fourth and fifth-generation fighters more "lethal" in combat.

The USAF wants the system to be installed on an existing Link 16 platform that can be used from close enough distances to highly contested airspace to connect with Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptors via the Intra-Flight Data Link (IFDL) and eventually Lockheed F-35s via the Multifunctional Advanced Data Link (MADL). Because the new "communications gateway" will be operating with fifth-generation fighters, it will need to be equipped with multi-level security features, the RFI reads.

The RFI comes as the USAF Scientific Advisory Board is investigating how to maintain secure communications while operating against an anti-access/area denial threat environment.
The proper way is to bring up the legacy fleet so that it can co-exist with the stealth fleet. Doing it the other way around is counter productive for obvious reasons.

The USAF boss, recently introduced this as a priority for the Air force.

Image

The USN is obviously going to piggy back on this, but it also has other requirements particularly the ones pertaining to NIFCCA concept. Here the large volume TTNT networks need to have elements within the F-35 CNI suite so that the F-35 can use the SM6 and other future missiles to target missiles or aircrafts heading towards the fleet from beyond the horizon. These are specific programs and are beautifully crafted to be LPI/LPD for the front line and higher volume and multi directional for the aircraft in the back. The E-2D and the F-18 Growler would play the nodes here.

Image

Thats why its disingenuous or mischievous for Dassault to tell the Canadians that the rafale would be fully compatible with F-35 and USAF jets because it has operated alongside USAF jets in the past few conflicts. Bottom line is that in contested environments even the F-16 in service in the USAF is not fully interoperable with the F-35 in LPI mode until it gets the new system that is being rapidly developed.
Last edited by brar_w on 16 Jul 2014 20:07, edited 3 times in total.
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Former Pentagon official Pierre Sprey, and frequent F-35 critic, said that micro-cracks developed in the blades before the rubbing led to a catastrophic failure
Seriously? Just about a dozen media outlets have said as much. But then its not like he is even remotely connected to either the program, pentagon or the producer.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

F-35 Fire is Probably a ‘One-Off’
The Commandant of the Marine Corps described the June engine fire of an F-35 that caused the fleet’s grounding until Tuesday morning as probably a “one-off” incident.

Speaking at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think-tank, Gen. James Amos, an aviator himself, said 95 of 96 engines had been inspected by Monday and all but three were cleared. He said that he expected two of those to be cleared soon.

“It doesn’t mean [the engine fire] is not significant. It doesn’t mean we’re not going to pay attention to it.”

He added that “This is called developmental testing. . . . Everything, whether it be the Ford Pinto or whether it be the F-35B, went through developmental testing and they found things.”

Frank Kendall, under secretary of defense for acquisition, said recently the engine fire in an F-35A at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, may have been caused by “excessive rubbing” of fan blades in the engine.

“We know what happened. We are just not sure why,” Amos said. “I’m optimistic, very optimistic about the future of the F-35.”
In February, the discovery of a crack in the engine of an F-35B caused the fleet to be grounded for a week.

The Marines’ F-35B is scheduled to reach initial operating capability in the summer of 2015. Amos, who is retiring this fall, said he expected the aircraft to meet that schedule.

Even though the fleet has been cleared to fly again under a new engine-inspection regimen, the F-35 will not be participating in the Farnborough Air Show in Great Britain this week, the Defense Department announced Tuesday afternoon. Rear Adm. John Kirby, Defense Department spokesman, said Amos made the decision.

At Brookings, Amos said the Marine Corps is planning for a return of sequestration with its across-the-board cuts in 2016. “I’m just not confident . . . that Congress is going to fix it.” In terms of end strength, that means a Marine Corps of 175,000, down from today’s 190,444.

Which in turn means tomorrow’s Marines will be spending less time at home—seven months deployed and 13 months at home station. “We were 1:1 at the height of the war in Iraq, and we did that for almost three years. The ideal deployment to dwell for reset family, just kind of getting your head back in the game is 1:3.”

The smaller force “is going to be a deploying Marine Corps” because “we’re the only service in the country that has the resources and the capability to be able to do some of this that others can’t.”

To pay for that high operating tempo and need for readiness of deploying units means continuing cuts for installation upkeep and support programs.

Amos said that those cuts and delayed spending could be sustained into 2017, and then his successor, Gen. Joseph Dunford, whose confirmation hearing is scheduled for Thursday, would have to make decisions on restricting operations and deployments.
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Raytheon and Kongsberg team to provide air-launched Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare solutions
Raytheon Company and Kongsberg Gruppen have formed a teaming agreement to provide new solutions for the Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare (OASuW) mission. As a centerpiece of the agreement, the companies will develop the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) for air-launched OASuW applications.The Joint Strike Missile is already funded for development for the Royal Norwegian Air Force at a time when the United States Navy is considering cost-effective solutions for next-generation OASuW weapons systems.

"The U.S. and its allies gain new and innovative options in the OASuW arena through this agreement," said Dr. Taylor W. Lawrence, Raytheon Missile Systems president. "Raytheon's global development capability allows us to identify and offer the advanced and affordable solutions our customers require for the complex missions of the future."

Raytheon and Kongsberg have already collaborated successfully in the global market for ground-based air defense systems and in other fields.

"Our companies have worked together for decades on several projects and are ideally positioned to bring the Joint Strike Missile to customers worldwide," said Harald Ånnestad, Kongsberg Defence Systems president. "OASuW is a market where we can effectively team to deliver products that address the key requirements of the warfighter."
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Philip
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Philip »

Since the JSF's P&W engine is now under the scanner after the last fire,it is worth taking a look also at the engine costs (AWST 21/4/14).As of now P&W are refusing to state the engine costs justifying such info would impact upon the next gen. aircraft engine contract. LRIP 7 costs by Lockheed state that for the airframe alone the F35A is $98M,F-35B $104M and F-35C $116M.The engine costs last known cited by Lt.Gen."Bogged-Down",were F-35A/C $15M,F-35B including the lift fan,$38M (!).If you add the two figures up you get the actual cost as of 4/14 for the variants.The F-35A will cost $112M,F-35B $142M,and F-35C $130M. These figures are far from the touted less than $100M which the manufacturers are aiming for.L&M and P&W will have to make substantial cost savings,at least 15-20% if they want to achieve these figures.While L&M can be relied upon to cut costs,as the latest "bloc booking cost" initiative was unveiled which would assure a minimum order of "X" aircraft,guaranteeing large scale production of components,P&W's reticence on the engine costs could upset the applecart,esp. now after the fire.

According to the AWST report,P&W were making attempts at cost reduction,but once the single engine decision was made and the choice sealed,have made little further progress."Bogged-Down" was quoted as saying,"Pratt have not made their commitments,it's as simple as that".
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:Since the JSF's P&W engine is now under the scanner after the last fire,it is worth taking a look also at the engine costs (AWST 21/4/14).As of now P&W are refusing to state the engine costs justifying such info would impact upon the next gen. aircraft engine contract. LRIP 7 costs by Lockheed state that for the airframe alone the F35A is $98M,F-35B $104M and F-35C $116M.The engine costs last known cited by Lt.Gen."Bogged-Down",were F-35A/C $15M,F-35B including the lift fan,$38M (!).If you add the two figures up you get the actual cost as of 4/14 for the variants.The F-35A will cost $112M,F-35B $142M,and F-35C $130M. These figures are far from the touted less than $100M which the manufacturers are aiming for.
1. Its already been stated many many times that the F-35A's current flyaway cost is $112M - $98M + $14M.

2. The projected cost at full production is $75M per unit (in 2014 dollars), not $100M. This figure includes engine cost BTW. And they've sanctioned a program to reduce the cost even further, perhaps even lower than $70M.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Philip wrote:The engine costs last known cited by Lt.Gen."Bogged-Down",were F-35A/C $15M,F-35B including the lift fan,$38M (!).If you add the two figures up you get the actual cost as of 4/14 for the variants.The F-35A will cost $112M,F-35B $142M,and F-35C $130M. These figures are far from the touted less than $100M which the manufacturers are aiming for.
Lets clear a few things.

1) No one, either in the program, or on this forum is claiming that the cost is 100m or below at the moment.
Look at this -

Image

I have posted this not once but twice. Does it show current costs @ below 100 million? It shows 112 million as the CTOL cost based on LRIP 7 contracts. press releases also point to the same. Its no new news, but a well known fact. Also look at the trend. LRIP 5 costs were close to 140 million (with the engine). LRIP 7 costs are 112. See any trend? LRIP contract is currently being negotiated, but don't expect a huge reduction because the numbers have not changed. Next bump comes in LRIP 9 when production sees a boost. Then in LRIP10 and beyond the line would ramp up to a number greater than 100 aircraft per annum.

There are 2 components to large scale aircraft cost reduction -

1) Is the internal lessons learnt, the associated learning curve and the internal programs funded by the developers to bring efficiencies into the program to cut cost. One designs a production program based on the wisdom and information that is KNOWN at the point of inception. As an OEM produces and designs the product, it learns a lot of things. Having the money to apply those things back into the production process to change it, tweak it in order to make it leaner is important. The Blueprint of Efficiency does precisely that. Its a 160 odd million internally funded effort, with a ROI promised by the JPO if those savings materialize.

The learning curve on the F-35 can be seen here -

Image

As you can see the curve goes downwards. SDD aircraft required 300K man hours to build. LRIP 2 less then half that.

2) More important is the economies of scale component. The entire program, from the level of the smallest sub-contractor to the largest prime contractor (Lockheed Martin) has been designed to run at nearly 1 aircraft per working day (Minus the weekends). Robotics and high cost production processes have been employed to achieve such high rates. Why such rates are required? Because the F-16's were produced at a very very high rate, and will be retiring at such a rate as well. The closer the F-35 gets to the ECONOMIES of scale it is designed to operate at the cheaper it would become to produce.

Current estimates about affordability point to 80% of the cost reduction coming form ramp up and 20% coming from efficiencies associated with the learning curve.

The current cost target of 80-85 million (JPO target) calls for a 1/4 price reduction in the CTOL varient in 2019 when the production is increased around 4X compared to where it stands now.

The target for the F-135 is 10 million for one CTOL engine.

L&M and P&W will have to make substantial cost savings,at least 15-20% if they want to achieve these figures.
Around 24% from LRIP7 contract. However, they have halved the price from early LRIP1 aircraft and the production ramp up, coupled with the affordability measures currently being introduced is what they are looking at to drive home the much reduced price. This was always planned to happen in a large scale program. Happened in a similar fashion when the F-16 went from LRIP to full production.
While L&M can be relied upon to cut costs,as the latest "bloc booking cost" initiative was unveiled which would assure a minimum order of "X" aircraft,guaranteeing large scale production of components,P&W's reticence on the engine costs could upset the applecart,esp. now after the fire.
Block booking initiative is for LRIP jets, once the production bump happens the US will absorb the aircraft in production.
"Bogged-Down" was quoted as saying,"Pratt have not made their commitments,it's as simple as that".
Your way of deliberately messing around with people's names (Bogged-down, Jait-Ley etc) is rather annoying. Anyhow, the point is that he has been blunt with OEM's when required and P&W have plenty of scope to do more. They are investing their own money into reducing the costs and the target of 10 million is what they are aiming for.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Philip »

You're missing the point.Having wrapped up the engine with no contestant,P&W have gone to sleep about cost-cutting and are refusing to provide a figure.How can one then ensure an accurate cost? "Bogged-Down" ,and this certainly illustrates his current situation with the programme ,has evinced his exasperation at P&W.He has an unenviable job.It's going to be very interesting to watch how the huge % in cost reduction,which as of now exists only on paper,yet to be assured in fine print to prospective buyers,is going to be accomplished,esp. with P&W most cagey about their engine costs.If Uncle Sam is willing to pick up the bill for extra costs ,splendid for allies! However,the way the programme is eating up funds of the overall defence budget,where the future DDG fleet has had a good section sliced off, there will be opposition from many quarters where other US Industrial-mil interests are at stake.

I have also posted facts several times which are conveniently ignored.As far as the optimists of the JSF are concerned,everything is hunky-dory.There are other more conservative viewpoints.And by the way Arun "Jel-Li" is doing a great job like his exceptionally talented agile actor and kung-fu exponent namesake,handling two huge portfolios splendidly.Kudos to him.If you can't see the humour,its just too bad.

PS:Coming back to the Canadian concern about the survivability of a single-engined fighter,a downed airman freezing in the ice-cold water,etc., as a reason for hesitating to buy the JSF,surely that concern applies also to the RN who've been using the Harriers for decades and have plumped for the F-35B? Canada also has no carriers in its navy,all aircraft will be land based.The argument sounds weak.Given its proximity to the US, geographic,military and political,if the US is willing to underwrite some of the costs of the JSF and guarantee a fixed price,it makes more sense for Canada to acquire it rather than a European fighter unless even discounted costs are prohibitive.It's Canada's navy that should be beefed up, a more important component of western naval capability,particularly as the Arctic has opened up both as a maritime route and exploitation of its energy and mineral wealth.There is a mad scramble going on for the same with Russia staking its claim based upon the extension of its continental shelf into the Arctic Sea.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

Coming back to the Canadian concern about the survivability of a single-engined fighter,a downed airman freezing in the ice-cold water,etc., as a reason for hesitating to buy the JSF,surely that concern applies also to the RN who've been using the Harriers for decades and have plumped for the F-35B?
Not sure why it is so difficult to understand the Canadian situation. Their northern territories is mainly inhabited. And, in winter it gets real cold. They are unable to mount a rescue quick enough to rescue a downed pilot - by the time a rescue team gets to the pilot he could be gone. Even with a two engined plane the risk is merely reduced, not eliminated. In peace time.

What that has to do with the RN I am not sure.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

You're missing the point
No I'm not. You seem to be claiming a lot of things about the cost which are well known and spoken of just a few posts above your post.
Having wrapped up the engine with no contestant
No contestant? What the heck? Are you familiar with the program at all? The program held a formal competition during which The F-135 defeated the F-136 fair and square. The F-136 was allowed in through the back door. This was cut in order to save more than 3 billion dollars in direct development money. More so on maintaining production line of two separate engines.

I am all for competition and giving the "looser" and second chance. Perhaps even a third and a fourth chance if that means lowered costs. However, the bottom line is that in an era of sequester investing 3-4 billion dollars on a second engine is a luxury and not a necessity. This goes back to the " Nice to have " vs " Must have" tradeoffs General Welsh spoke about just recently regarding air superiority.
Having wrapped up the engine with no contestant,P&W have gone to sleep about cost-cutting and are refusing to provide a figure.
You do realize that "refusing to provide" cost figures is for the public domain and not for the JPO? The JPO knows exactly what it costs, and where the slip in cost reduction has taken place and whether that slip is still taking place etc.
"Bogged-Down" ,and this certainly illustrates his current situation with the programme
To you perhaps. Others, more informed may not see it that way, especially if you speak to someone who is aware of historic large scale aerospace projects such as the F-16.
It's going to be very interesting to watch how the huge % in cost reduction,which as of now exists only on paper,yet to be assured in fine print to prospective buyers,is going to be accomplished
Your lack of knowledge on the program shows itself again. First the HUGE % you speak off has been achieved previously. There was a recurring fly away cost reduction of 50% from LRIP 1 to LRIP5. LRIP 5 to LRIP 7 costs reduced from around 140 odd million to 112 million mainly due to the reasons listed above (the 2 reasons). Going from LRIP8 to Full rate of production there are other factors that will contribute as well such as Blueprint of affordability that the OEM's have signed up to which sees them invest 150+ Million to bring in efficiencies into the production process, that are a part of the "lessons learnt" phase of production.

Secondly you raise this point -

which as of now exists only on paper,yet to be assured in fine print to prospective buyers

This again shows a lack of know how on procurement proceses. Every F-35 customer, whether it is the developmental partners (US, UK, Turkey etc) or FMS customers such as Israel, South Korea or Japan pay the price that is negotiated between the JPO and the prime contractor for the airframe and the engine. No buyer can negotiate a price on its own unless the buyer is buying using the Commercial sale model. So far no commercial sale of the jet has occurred so that point is moot. The JPO concludes cost negotiations only a year or so before that batch is up for production. LRIP8 negotiations are on going even though it won't be produced before 2016ish. Lockheed can only offer in print what the JPO agrees to in the signed contract. So far the IN PRINT price has fallen from 250 odd million in LRIP1 to 112 million in LRIP 7. Expect it to be a couple of million dollars less in LRIP8 and significantly less (5-10 million) by LRIP9 which sees a production bump.

LRIP 8 contracts should be negotiated and released to the public fairly soon
If Uncle Sam is willing to pick up the bill for extra costs ,splendid for allies!
Every F-35 contract negotiated post LRIP5 is a fixed price contract. LRIP 7 which goes into production in 2015 had its 112 million per CTOL cost fixed in 2013. If lockheed produces the F-35 at a higher price then 112 million, it will have to bear the cost overrun. Its a standard fixed price contract.
However,the way the programme is eating up funds of the overall defence budget
Ever done the math of the total acquisition cost of the F-16 program compared to overall DOD procurement spending in the same timeframe?
However,the way the programme is eating up funds of the overall defence budget,where the future DDG fleet has had a good section sliced off, there will be opposition from many quarters where other US Industrial-mil interests are at stake
DDG fleet is struck off because of the F-35? Do you realize who absurd this is? What next, the ABRAMS replacement is also chopped off because of the F-35? NASA not having a space shuttle program because of the F-35?
As far as the optimists of the JSF are concerned,everything is hunky-dory.
No it is not all hunky dory. Your arguments are quite absurd and sometimes repetitive. There are plenty of things that are going to require fixing in the next couple of years (F-35B and A IOC) but its not all that bad. Much progress has been made on everything from glitches, to cost with the cost trending downwards block after block.
PS:Coming back to the Canadian concern about the survivability of a single-engined fighter,a downed airman freezing in the ice-cold water,etc., as a reason for hesitating to buy the JSF
Its not the CANADIANS that are concerned, its think tanks within Canada. Think tanks can do whatever they want. A think tank in the US compared the F-35 to the Chinese Sukhoi using a video game and declared the F-35 inferior.
surely that concern applies also to the RN who've been using the Harriers for decades and have plumped for the F-35B?
And has the Harrier not been a workhorse for them? What about the USMC that has also used the Harrier alongside twin engined jets. Or the USN that is the most well equipped navy in the world and yet has little issue with a single engine fighter. I am sure these services have looked at tons of operational documents from the F-16 program and other single engined fighter.
Given its proximity to the US, geographic,military and political,if the US is willing to underwrite some of the costs of the JSF and guarantee a fixed price,it makes more sense for Canada to acquire it rather than a European fighter unless even discounted costs are prohibitive
The way the program is structured, the following is the procurement procedure for FMS customers -

- All FMS customers place a request for fighters at the Embassy or trough military channels
- The F-35 team (lockheed and Pratt) give them firm cost information on the last batch that was negotiated with the JPO as well as updates on the state of current negotiations.
- If a formal competition is required Lockheed is legally only allowed to bid with a JPO firm contract price that is in play at the time of submitting the bid.

Given the delays in the Korean competition, lockheed was able to reduce its bid in the 2nd round because it had more cost information based on LRIP 6 negotiated contracts with the JPO

Lockheed and Pratt are not allowed to use SAR information for formal bidding. Only the current negotiated fixed price contract may be allowed.

BUT Canada is not an FMS customer. If and when Canada decides to buy the JSF they will pay the price that is negotiated on behalf of them by the JPO (that deals with ALL cost negotiations for ALL customers). First Canada has to communicate to the JPO which block they may wish to buy the F-35's in.

There is a bulk buy program that is being promoted by the US DOD in which partners can club there block buys and ask the JPO to negotiate a major bulk contract with the Vendors. ALL F-35 CONTRACTS are fixed price from here on in. The LRIP price stabilization is not going to take forever. LRIP 10 and beyond would be for 2019 deliveries which means that those contracts would be negotiated in end of 2017. Thats just 3 years away. Canada or any prospective customer can easily wait to come aboard after these efforts have resulted in a fixed price cost that is much lower than 112 million. We know that South Korea, Israel and Japan aren't going to be waiting. Japan has concluded their contract, South Korea should conclude it later this year and Israel's First F-35 would be delivered next year.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

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US Defense Secretary Hagel visited the 33rd Fighter Wing to reinforce his commitment to the way ahead and highlight the progress with the F-35 program.

http://vimeo.com/101156099
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

First RAAF F-35 pre-roll out & Delivery

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[youtube]yP3izS0XLkY&list=UUJWcF0ex7_doPdIQGbVpDsQ[/youtube]
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by member_20292 »

I think we should also buy this plane. It will serve us well, and is one of the few things that WILL send a shiver down the spine of the chicoms, the other being large strategic programs including Megaton Nukes ICBMs and SLBMs in our arsenal being tested.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by member_20292 »

Mota, mota,

American arms destroy Chicom confidence.
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