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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 10:18 
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Thread started with the permission of Singha Ji

Requesting all BRF-ites to post MBT Arjun specific news, articles and discussions here

Request veterans like Karan M, Rohitvats etc to do the honors by cross-posting key milestones and achievements of the Arjun MBT


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 10:25 
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Main Battle Tank, Arjun - specifications

From the DRDO link:

Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun is a multi-laboratory programme of DRDO with CVRDE as the lead Laboratory. It is a state-of-the-art tank with superior fire power, high mobility, and excellent protection. Twelve Mk 1 prototypes of MBT Arjun have been manufactured and their performance tests have provided satisfactory results. Some of the breakthroughs achieved by CVRDE during the development of MBT Arjun are in Engine, Transmission, Hydropneumatic Suspension, Hull and Turret, and Gun Control System.

Salient Features

Fire Power

The superior armour defeating capability of the indigenously developed Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition and 120 mm calibre rifled gun give MBT ARJUN an edge over contemporary world tanks. A computer-controlled integrated fire control system incorporating day-cum-night stabilized sighting system guarantees a very high first round hit probability and reduced reaction time to bring effective fire on targets.

The stabilization system for the main armament, slaved to the sighting equipment in elevation and azimuth, with a high and accurate laying speed, allows fire on the move.

The superior fire power of MBT is based on:
Accurate and fast target acquisition capability during day and night and in all types of weather .
Shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements .
Ability to accurately engage targets on move .
Capability to destroy all possible enemy armour at maximum battle ranges
Excellent first hit probability

Main Armament

The rifled 120 mm ARJUN gun together with the newly developed super velocity ammunition, can defeat any contemporary armour used in tanks. The electro-slag refined gun steel tube is autofrettaged to withstand higher gas pressures. A thermal jacket prevents irregular temperature distribution on to the tube due to the weather influences.

Secondary Armament

A co-axial 7.62 mm machine gun for anti-personnel and a 12.7 mm machine gun for anti-aircraft and ground targets are provided as secondary weapons.

Gunner's Main Sight

Gunner's Main Sight consists of a day-sight, thermal sight, a laser range finder and a stabilized head common to all the three channels. The common sighting head mirror is stabilized in elevation and azimuth. The day- sight provides dual magnification.

The thermal imager provides night vision facility to the gunner and the commander to observe and engage target in total darkness and in the presence of smoke, dust, haze and light camouflage. Integral with the main sight is the laser range finder by which targets can be ranged accurately.

Panoramic Sight for Commander

Commander's panoramic sight enables the commander to effect an all round surveillance in the battlefield without removing his eyes from the sight and without being disturbed by the turret motion. The field of view is stabilized with the help of a two axes rate gyro-mounted on the platform of the head mirror. The sight offers dual magnification.

Ammunition

Two types of ammunition, viz, FSAPDS and HESH have been developed for this armament. The highly lethal FSAPDS ammunition which is the main battle ammunition of the tank has accounted itself admirably during the trails. In addition, the anti-helicopter round to combat the air threat to armour is also under development.

Mobility

Low ground pressure, high power-to-weight ratio and new design concepts in transmission suspension and running gear result in highly mobile and agile weapon platform.

The remarkable mobility of MBT which also adds to its protection is the result of:

High performance engine
Robust and effective transmission system particularly flexible hydropneumatic suspension .
Optimized running gear with its high shock energy absorption.

Due to the high power-to-weight ratio and low specific ground pressure, MBT is fast, highly manoeuvrable and extremely mobile to cross the most difficult terrain with ease. High acceleration rapid braking capabilities with excellent steering characteristics make MBT agile in the battlefield. Adequate fuel storage capacity and relatively low fuel consumption allow for an optimal operational range.

An important criterion for the mobility of any AFV is the effective performance of the driver. Excellent vision systems both for day and night provide most effective means of observation in all battlefield conditions. The need to keep the crew's fatigue including that of driver at the minimum level over long periods of continuous operation, have been taken care of.

Protection

All round protection from anti-tank ammunition is achieved by t~e newly developed KANCHAN armour to a degree much higher than available in present generation tanks. The high degree of immunity is achieved by.
The computerised design and simulation .
A fabricated turret housing lightweight compact KANCHAN armour.
Careful dimensioning of wall through optimal slopes and angles .
A low silhouette.

Crew Comfort

Ergonometry, using anthropometric data of Indian troops, has been kept in view while designing the fighting and driving compartments to fully exploit the outstanding features of the weapon system. Hydropneumatic suspension provides excellent ride comfort for crew eliminating fatigue even on the extended runs.


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 10:33 
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MBT Arjun Mk 2 at the Republic Day parade

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 11:11 
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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 18:43 
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Chinese military research academy praises India's Arjun tank

Quote:
BEIJING: India's indigenous main battle tank Arjun was today praised by a top Chinese military official who said it is "very good" for Indian conditions as the PLA for the first time opened its facilities for Indian media to provide an insight into its massive modernisation.


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 19:22 
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^Everybody, except the DGMF can see and accept the truth. Such intransigence must have very powerful motivations. The question is which ones?


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 19:56 
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Quote:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 868639.cms
India's Arjun tank ‘very good’: Chinese military

Most of the China's land-based military hardware goes through mandatory trials and exercises in the extreme conditions of Tibet on the India-China border.


Arun Menon wrote:
^Everybody, except the DGMF can see and accept the truth. Such intransigence must have very powerful motivations. The question is which ones?


NONE! IA should join NATO ops to realize where they stand in the first place.

this is pure politics.


Last edited by SaiK on 29 Jun 2015 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 19:57 
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Arjun Mark 2 Specs comparison with other MBTs

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 19:59 
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truth ignored will hurt very bad and cost a lot for the nation ultimately.


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 21:31 
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DRDO Tech Focus: Indigenous Technologies and Sub-systems for Armoured Fighting Vehicles

Large orders can make Arjun tank cheaper

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90


Upcoming modifications on the Arjun Mark II

Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun


Last edited by srai on 29 Jun 2015 21:41, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 21:37 
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Viv S wrote:
CAG REPORT

_______________________________

ABSENCE OF LEVEL PLAYING FIELD
_______________________________


The most significant setback to production of MBT Arjun was the change in requirements put forth by the Army in February 2007. The tanks produced by HVF, Avadi were to be issued to the Army after inspection at the factory site in the Joint Receipt Inspection by the representatives of HVF, DRDO and Army. The issued tanks were put through two trials - the Field Trial and the Accelerated usage-cum-reliability trials (AUCRT), by the Army. Joint Receipt Inspection was conducted (March 2005) for first five MBT Arjun manufactured (2003-04) in the pilot phase, one year after production. The inspection of the second lot of nine pilot MBT Arjun, took place in February 2007, two years after production. By 2007, 53 MBT had already been produced by HVF, Avadi. It was during this inspection in February 2007 that Army reported water ingress in the fighting compartment of tank while crossing shallow parts of a river and raised two additional requirements in the design of the MBT Arjun viz. zero level ingress of water in the fighting compartment and lead time for fording (time from tank’s entry into water to exit from water) to be minimised to 30 minutes.

We noticed that the corresponding benchmark fixed by the Army for T-90 tank was more relaxed, allowing 2.5 litres of water ingress. The requirement of zero level water ingress for medium fording was not stipulated in the Army’s requirements (GSQR of 1985) or in subsequent stages of development which had seen many changes in design. In fact, the Joint Action Plan (of Army and DRDO), in August 1999, had cleared the medium fording capability of MBT Arjun. This issue was also not raised in the Joint Receipt Inspection of the first batch of pilot MBT Arjun. The new requirements necessitated the DRDO to modify the design of the second lot of nine pilot MBT Arjun. The same got modified and were issued to Army by September 2007. The first lot of five pilot tanks was brought back from Army, got modified and issued to Army till October 2007. Balance 39 tanks of the bulk production were dismantled, reworked and issued to the Army in 2008-10. The whole task of dismantling and reassembly of 53 MBTs entailed an additional cost of Rs 84 lakh. The Ministry stated (May 2014) that modifications were considered essential to improve overall performance from user’s perspective. The reply undermines the impact of the modifications in derailing the production and issue of MBT Arjun, which was a significant factor that led to an import of T-90 tanks that cost Rs 4,913 crore in November 2007 as discussed in Paragraph 8.3.4. The reply also does not address why the benchmarks on MBT Arjun regarding water ingress and fording, were more stringent than the corresponding requirements on T-90 tank.

Medium fording was one of the eight instances we noticed, where Army placed benchmark of parameters on MBT Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks. These are detailed in Annexure XIX. We could not assess the impact of these benchmarks on the performance of the two tanks from our scrutiny of the Report on comparative trials of MBT Arjun and T-90 tank (February/ March 2010- referred to in Paragraph 8.3.2.8 ). While we appreciate the Army’s quest for improving the quality of MBT Arjun, the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field and more importantly, the inability to freeze the designs led to several changes in design, consequent delays in acceptance of MBT Arjun by the Army and in the overall, the production and issue of MBT Arjun.

___________________________

IMPACT OF 'EVOLVING' GSQRs
___________________________


Changes in design

Mention was made in Report No. 3 of 2006 of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India about the frequent changes in design leading to delay in development of MBT Arjun. The development of MBT prototype was to be completed by April 1982 but after going through several modifications in design, the prototype was cleared by the Army in 1998. Given this concern on several changes in design, the Scientific Advisor to the Raksha Mantri had confirmed (2004) in a note to the Ministry that the design for MBT stood frozen. This was, however, not the case. We found that 316 amendments to design of various assemblies were carried out even after freezing of the design and up to August 2010. The changes were mostly justified by the Ministry in its reply (May 2014) as necessitated for product improvement and modifications based on user’s feedback on quality problems. The reply does not take cognizance of the fact that even after clearing the production after acceptance of the prototype (1998), the designs continued to be re-worked for 12 years thereafter and frozen only in 2010.

_________________________________

ARJUN - T-90 COMPARATIVE TRIALS
_________________________________


Comparative field trials of MBT Arjun with T-90 tanks took place in February/ March 2010. Till such time, the Army had been consistently reporting quality problems in MBT Arjun; this was also reported to the Standing Committee on Defence (2007-08). The comparative trials were on four parameters viz. fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues of the tank with weightage of 40, 35, 15 and 10 respectively. As per the trial report, MBT Arjun performed marginally better than the T-90 tank in accuracy and consistency of firepower. However, T-90 tank performed better in lethality and missile firing capability. The Army concluded (April 2010) that “Arjun had performed creditably and it could be employed both for offensive and defensive tasks with same efficacy of T-90 tank.” The Army also recommended upgrades to make the Arjun tank a superior weapon platform. We were informed (February 2014) that the Mark-II version of MBT Arjun was under trials by the Army and that it would include the upgrades recommended by the Army.

We found that the MBT Arjun and T-90 tank were not exactly comparable in missile firing ability; the higher score of T-90 tank was mainly due to missile firing ability which was not in the design of MBT Arjun. Barring missile firing ability, the scores of MBT Arjun and T-90 tank would be 25.77 and 24.50 respectively in firepower. In the overall comparative score, T-90 tank scored 75.01, marginally higher than MBT Arjun which scored 72.46, mainly because of higher score on missile firing ability of T-90 tank.

__________________

T-90 PRODUCTION
__________________


The Russian Firm, M/s Rosoboronexport (ROE) was expected to transfer the design details in the Transfer-of-Technology (ToT) documents by March 2003. The documents were in Russian; the Army/Ordnance Factories’ efforts to get translated documents from ROE, failed. The documents were received between September 2001 and January 2003 following which HVF, Avadi concluded four contracts between September 2003 and September 2006 for translation of the documents. The translation was completed by July 2007 after the expiry of scheduled delivery period of first batch of 50 indigenous tanks by 2006-07. In all, the translation of ToT documents took almost six years.

The Ministry stated (May 2014) that translation of critical documents for indigenous manufacturing was carried out with available resource of Russian translators at HVF and there was no delay in production due to pending translation. The reply is not acceptable because delay in translation of ToT documents had certainly impacted on the indigenous production of T-90 tanks as production could not commence without the availability of translated documents.

Non-receipt of design documents for critical assemblies

We found that ToT documents in respect of some critical assemblies were not transferred by the Russian manufacturer, ROE, even after lapse of 12 years as of July 2013. An important component was the gun system (including barrel) for which the design had not been received as of May 2014. In fact, the Ministry cited this issue as the main reason for slippage in indigenous production of T-90 tank.

________________________________

QUALITY PROBLEMS WITH THE T-90
________________________________

During March 2010 to November 2013, HVF received 45 defect reports (DRs) from the Army relating to minor and major defects in the indigenous T-90 tanks. The defects mainly pertained to failure of gear box and defects in auto/electrical portion of the tanks. A Working Group was proposed (March 2012) to address these deficiencies which was not formed. The HVF, Avadi constituted (November 2004) a Failure Review Board (FRB) at factory level to investigate the reasons for defects at the users end. The FRB discussed (September 2013) the major failures and recommended remedial measures.

Accordingly, HVF implemented:

• a process audit to eliminate non-conformances in assembling process;
• introduction of 100 per cent pre-fitment and component level inspection and additional quality assurance checks at local supplier’s premises;
• extensive trials of samples supplied by the local firms after introducing improvements and before their induction into regular production; and
• deputing of HVF’s teams to field locations to ensure technical and maintenance support to the users.

Ministry told us that the FRB was a quality tool which facilitated timely action on defects. The delay in discussion of the FRB (September 2013), even when
the Army was raising quality concerns since March 2010, was not however, commented upon by the Ministry.

___________________

PRODUCTION RATE
___________________

Arjun:

The Public Accounts Committee had urged (December 2003) the Ministry to utilize the infrastructural facilities optimally so that the desired volume of production of MBT Arjun would enable increase of the indigenous content to 55 per cent. The Ministry assured the Committee that a production level, initially of 300 MBT Arjun to be raised to 500 tank later, would reduce the import content to under 30 per cent.

However, barring the initial indent of 124 tanks, the Board did not receive any further indents for MBT Arjun. Production has come to standstill since 2009-10 and to that extent, capacity created at a cost of Rs 87 crore for annual production of 30 MBT Arjun awaits utilization against Ministry’s decision for fresh orders. Meanwhile, HVF, Avadi holds idle inventory of Rs 128 crore reflected as “Work-in-progress”, which remains unutilised in the absence of fresh orders. The cost per MBT Arjun was Rs 21 crore (2009-10), against which the import content was Rs 13 crore. This brings the level of indigenisation in MBT Arjun to 38 per cent only. The initial development project on MBT Arjun had envisaged that barring the engine, all components/assemblies would be indigenously produced. Problems in sourcing major assemblies other than engines have been discussed in Paragraph 8.3.2.6.

T-90:

The production of T-90 tank at HVF, Avadi was short of the indent of November 2004 for 300 tanks, by 75 tanks as of March 2013. Even as the production was underway against the first indent, the Army placed a second indent for 236 T-90 tanks in December 2013. Meanwhile, the Ministry sanctioned (September 2011) Rs 971 crore for capacity augmentation of T-90 tank production by March 2014. This was expected to raise the capacity of Ordnance Factories from 100 per cent to 140 per cent of T-90 tanks.

It is noteworthy that Rs 96 crore was sanctioned (February 2004) for creating production capacity for 100 T-90 tanks, whereas augmentation of capacity from 100 to 140 tanks is slated for Rs 971 crore, a ten times increase in estimation over a period of seven years. Reasons for the extraordinary increase were not provided by the Ministry, in its response of May 2014. As of March 2014, only an amount of Rs 17 crore had been spent on the augmentation project and in the revised schedule, the project is expected to be completed in December 2016. The Board appears to have put the augmentation plan on a slow track as of now.

______________________________________


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 21:38 
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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 23:07 
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srai wrote:

Some of these articles need to be posted in full for the record. They would serve to inform new comers who read this thread and show the amount of effort that went into it and the uphill battle our MBT faced. I am making a few posts with these articles. Mods, please let me know if you think these are repetitive, but I wanted to keep these articles on the page 1 of this thread so folks need not crawl through the long Armour threads.


Last edited by arshyam on 29 Jun 2015 23:23, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 23:09 
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The Arjun tank acquires a growing fan club - Ajai Shukla, Jun 2008

Quote:
India’s own Arjun tank is finally proving its worth. Despite continuing criticism from an army establishment that judges the Arjun far more strictly than foreign purchases like the T-90, the Arjun is successfully completing a gruelling 5000-kilometre trial in the Rajasthan desert. During six months of trials, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), along with tank crews from the army’s 43 Armoured Regiment, have proved not just the Arjun’s endurance, but also the ability of its computer-controlled gun to consistently blow away suitcase-sized targets placed more than a kilometre away.

The army’s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which must eventually okay the tank, is not impressed but key decision-makers are rallying behind the Arjun. The head of the Pune-based Southern Command, Lieutenant General N Thamburaj, strongly backs the Arjun. On a visit to the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan to watch his troops exercising, Lt Gen Thamburaj noticed the Arjun firing nearby. After walking across, he was invited by the DRDO team to drive and fire the tank. Half an hour later, the general was an Arjun backer; two holes in the target he aimed at testified that a soldier without previous experience operating tanks could get into the Arjun and use it effectively.

Business Standard has evidence of many more such incidents. On 29th June 2006, the commander of the elite 31 Armoured Division, Major General BS Grewal, visited the Mahajan Ranges along with a colleague, Major General Shiv Jaswal. Both drove and fired the Arjun for the first time that day; the two rounds that each fired punched holes through targets almost two kilometres away. (see picture)

That same month, 43 Armoured Regiment, which is the first army tank unit equipped with the Arjun, pronounced itself delighted with the Arjun’s firing performance. After firing trials in summer 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed, “The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.”

But the establishment was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by then Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Eyewitnesses describe how he was upbraided for “not conducting the trials properly”. But in a career-threatening display of professional integrity, Colonel Thakur’s brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened to insist that the trials had been conducted correctly.

In a series of interviews with the army, including the present Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, and with the MoD top brass, Business Standard has learned that opposition to the Arjun remains deeply entrenched. This despite the soldiers of 43 Armoured Regiment declaring that if it came to war, they would like to be in an Arjun.

Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts, “I’ve spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment)… who have been testing the tank… I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun. I said, you’ve driven this tank and you’ve driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And I’ve found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank.”

With new confidence, the Arjun’s developer, the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), is arguing strongly for “comparative trials”, in which the Arjun would be pitted head-to-head, in identical conditions, with the army’s T-90 and T-72 tanks. But the DGMF continues to resist any such face-off.



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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 23:15 
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Nailing some more falsehoods about the Arjun tank... and some about the T-90! - Ajai Shukla, Jul 2008

Quote:
False argument No 1: The Arjun tank, after decades of failure, can’t suddenly have turned the corner!

It hasn’t “suddenly turned the corner”. It turned the corner very gradually, from around mid-2004. A major landmark came in early 2005, when the problem of the hydro pneumatic suspension unit (HSU) was licked. And in June 2005, the Arjun was to prove its capability in comparative trials in the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges (MFFR); the army agreed to comparative trials involving 5 Arjuns, 5 T-72s and 5 T-90s.

That turned out to be a total fiasco! The Arjun’s electronics packed up in the heat and the trials were over even before they began. The generals who came, including the Western Army Commander, laughed all the way back to their helicopters. The chief, who was to fly in for the trials was rung up and told not to take the trouble.

THAT WAS THE TURNING POINT.

The CVRDE put in a huge effort to heat-harden its electronics, which is something that bears fruit today. While the T-90 is now looking for air-conditioners, the post-2005 electronics in the Arjun can function flawlessly through 60 degrees.

In summer 2006, stringent firing trials by 43 Armoured Regiment established --- in the words of the army’s own trial team --- that the "accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was proved beyond doubt".

Later that year, the MoD stated to Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence that, "Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to the other two tanks."

In summer 2007, when the army was being pressured to conduct comparative trials, the DGMF raised another objection: the Arjun should be able to drive for 20 minutes in six feet of water. By the end of 2007, the CVRDE managed that as well.

In the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT), which was held in five phases over the first half of this year, the Arjun had problems in the transmission system (not the MTU engine as widely reported, but the Renk transmission) during the first three phases. Engineers from Renk GMbH, Germany came and fixed that and in the last two phases, which were the really tough, heavy desert, hot weather phases, the Arjun performed flawlessly.

The process of turning the corner has been a slow one, but it symbolises exactly why one should go for an Indian tank: each drawback was analysed by our engineers, fixed according to the users’ instructions, and then delivered back to the users without charging them a penny. Contrast that with the problems with the T-90’s electronics. Nobody is fixing that problem; instead, the Russians are trying to sell us air-conditioners. Added expense, and an inefficient solution compared to heat-hardening the electronics, the way the CVRDE did.

False argument No 2: The manufacturers of T-90 have 5 decades of experience under their belt. The T-90 is drawn from the bloodline of T-72 and T-55, both of which are battle proven.

Even the Russians are not buying into the myth of the T-90. That tank entered service with the Russian Army around 1996 and, till today, there are barely 250 T-90s defending Mother Russia! India has more T-90s in service than the Russian Army… and once we implement the full contract, we will have 6 times more T-90s than the Russian Army.

I wonder why the Russian Army isn’t accepting such a blue-blooded tank with such a fine pedigree??? The Russian Army prefers to use: 2144 numbers of T-72s, 3044 numbers of T-80s, 689 numbers of T-62s (plus 3000 more in storage), and even 1000 rickety old T-55s.

Sorry, but there are no more orders from Russia for T-90s.

False argument No 3: The soldiers who operate the Arjun doubt its capabilities as a frontline tank.

The Arjun tank has been operated by 43 Armoured Regiment since over a decade; 43 is delighted with the tank. I have a very close friend who commanded that regiment and he always argued that a regiment of Arjun tanks was worth two regiments of T-72s. And this was even before the Arjun turned the corner!

After the firing trials in June 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment pronounced itself delighted with the Arjun’s firing performance. As I said above, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed in its trial report, “The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.” The brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, himself from 43 Armoured Regiment, endorsed that report whole-heartedly.

But the DGMF was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by then DGMF, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Several eyewitnesses have described to me how Colonel Thakur was upbraided by Lt Gen Shekhawat for “not conducting the trials properly”. Fortunately for Colonel Thakur, his brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened and argued strongly that the trials had been conducted in accordance with procedure.

Talk to the crewmen, the drivers, gunners, operators… and you’ll get an even clearer endorsement. They all love the modular construction of the Arjun, which makes maintenance so easy. Changing a T-72 engine takes a full day; changing an Arjun engine takes a couple of hours.

Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts, “I’ve spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment)… who have been testing the tank… I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun. I said, you’ve driven this tank and you’ve driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And I’ve found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank.”

False argument No 4: The army has several objections to accepting the Arjun. Somebody writes, “After all, this is NOT pakistan where the generals are not accountable to anyone.”

The most astonishing part of the Arjun story is that the army (read DGMF) really doesn’t have a clear list of objections to the Arjun. Their objections vary from day to day, and with who they are talking to. Some of their objections --- such as that of the Arjun’s 60-ton weight --- run counter to the army’s own GSQR.

What is clear is that the MoD is happy with the Arjun. According to the Parliamentary Standing Committee for Defence’s last annual report for 2007-08, the MoD testified before the Committee that the Arjun tank was:

• “A product unique in its class”, and “an improved system over the T-72.”
• “Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West”.
• “Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)”.
• “Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem.”

So you judge: if that's what the MoD is saying... aren't the generals conveying an entirely false impression?

False argument No 5: The Arjun failed the AUCRT this summer

As I mentioned above, the Arjun performed creditably during the AUCRT, once Renk solved the transmission system problem.

But what is far more important is the fact that AUCRT is not a “performance trials”. It is not possible for a tank to “pass” or “fail” the AUCRT. The purpose of the AUCRT is to run a small number of tanks for thousands of kilometres and make them fire hundreds of rounds, basically putting them through their entire service lifespan in a few months. The aim of doing this is to evaluate what spares get consumed during the life-span of the tank; what maintenance and overhaul tasks should be scheduled at what stage of a tank’s life; an AUCRT evaluates a tank’s logistical needs, not its operational performance.

But when the transmission gave some problems in the first three phases of AUCRT, the DGMF was quick to seize the chance to bad-mouth the tank, and to convey the false impression that the Arjun had “failed its trials”.

THE ONLY TRIALS THAT WILL EFFECTIVELY EVALUATE THE ARJUN’S OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY --- AND THAT TOO IN COMPARISON TO ITS RUSSIAN RIVALS --- ARE COMPARATIVE TRIALS, ORGANISED BY A THIRD PARTY WITHOUT VESTED INTERESTS IN THE OUTCOME. THAT MUST BE DEMANDED BY THE MoD.


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2015 23:19 
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Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 - Ajai Shukla, Mar 2010

Quote:
India’s home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometers of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least ten rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks’ ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.

The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

“The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen”, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. “As the army’s tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities.”

With the trial report still being compiled --- it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight --- neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the army’s senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was: 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the army’s fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the army’s handful of Arjuns.

“The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun’s strong performance”, an army officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. “But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.”

The army’s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjun’s demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the army’s 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the army’s assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjun’s development for decades, “If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.”

The Arjun’s sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun --- with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection --- be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the army’s strike corps for performing a tank’s most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say that the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.


Having read this, now please read the CAG report details posted by Viv S and srai above. It talks about the results of the comparative trials this article describes.


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Improving the Arjun's already great suspension - Ajai Shukla, Nov 2011

Quote:
One of the distinctive features of the Arjun tank is its hydro-pneumatic suspension, distinct from and far more advanced than the "torsion bar" arrangement that conventional MBTs (including the T-90) feature. The Arjun's suspension provides a smoother ride, making the tank a more stable gunnery platform that permits more accurate engagement of targets whilst on the move.

The Arjun Mark II features an enhanced version of the Arjun's well-proven hydro-pneumatic suspension, with the new one designed for a 70-tonne load. This is part of an improved "running gear", including the road wheel mountings, the road wheels, axle arms and shock absorbers.

The new suspension has already been tested in the recent trials and run for 1,300 kilometers. In order to obtain an accurate comparison with the earlier suspension, the trial tank was fitted with both: the old suspension on the left side and the new one on the right. The photographs --- in which the new suspension still looks new while the old suspension looks somewhat the worst for wear (not surprising; 1,300 km is a lot of running!) --- point to a successful upgrade.

The Arjun's suspension will be practically all-Indian. The road wheels, which continue to be built by Sundaram Industries, have been improved with better manufacturing and bonding processes for the rubber. Tractor Engineeers Ltd (TENGL), an L&T company, is doing parallel development of the Arjun track (imported so far), including development of one of the most difficult running gear technologies: the track pins.

I am amused at the many who appear to believe that the Arjun is "built entirely of foreign components" that are "hammered together in India". This kind of view is rooted in a deep lack of understanding of the processes of indigenisation. It is true that almost 60% of the cost of the Arjun goes on imported components. Practically all of that goes on just three components --- the power pack; the gunner's main sight (GMS); and the gun control equipment (GCE). Almost all the Arjun's other 10,000-odd component are sourced from Indian industry, which is rising to the challenge. More support from the government, in terms of better procurement procedures, would accelerate this.

There will be more on this particular issue in Broadsword. Stay tuned...


Now for the Arjun Mk. 2. All the best.


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^^^^Chinese military official praises India's Arjun main battle tank
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India's indigenous main battle tank Arjun was on Monday praised by a top Chinese military official who said it is "very good" for Indian conditions. The statement was made as the People's Liberation Army (PLA) for the first time opened its facilities for Indian media to provide an insight into its massive modernisation.
:
Asked for his impressions of the Arjun battle tank developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, senior colonel Liu Degang, deputy commander of the Academy which keeps a close watch on the military hardware of India, said it is "very good" and suits Indian conditions.
:
:
:

Hope the Americans praise Arjun soon; If that happens, wonder what would be IA reaction/response!!!!


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Arjun Tank Mark1 Documentary


ARJUN TANK VS T-90 TANK , MAIN BATTLE TANK


No other country which has such a product would ever want to depend on foreign imports. Even if an indigenous product is only 50% as good as a foreign imported product, it should be supported and over a period it will improve. But, now, Arjun is already a very good product and there is simply no excuse in going for imports. NaMo had promised make-in-India. This is one big test for that and I hope NaMo makes this Make-In-India successful.


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ArmenT wrote:
uddu wrote:

Loose translation for non-Tamil speakers, by a non-native Tamil speaker :)

Around 0:20 - Vanakkam and welcome to the show, .... Today is republic day and on this happy day, if you're wondering where we've brought you, we're at CVRDE at Avadi, where India's defence research org is. If you are curious about exactly what is special at this place, please follow us.

0:45 The first person we are going to meet is the Director of CVRDE, Dr. Pa. Shivakumar, we can ask him for lots of good information, come on in.

1:15: About DRDO, you said, we need to know about it. Can you tell us a bit of information about DRDO
Dr: Shivakumar: Well if you look at India, we have various ministries. One of the important ministries is the Defence ministry. In the ministry of Defence, we can say there are four major wings. One is Department of Production, another one is Quality Assurance, another one is all Services (i.e.) Army, Navy, Airforce etc., and the R&D wing, that is DRDO, and DRDO is headed by a Scientific Advisor to Defence Ministry, he is heading that. If you look at the main role of DRDO, it is to fulfill the requirements of all users, whether it is Army, Navy, Airforce, it has to be fulfilled. If you look at DRDO today, we have 52 labs total spread out throughout the country. Starting from the needs of the army soldier's cloth, to the nuclear sub, aircraft, missile, tank etc., whatever the user needs, all the research, development, trials, evaluation and delivery for production environment is done initially by DRDO, which is the main focus. Today, if you look at DRDO, the 54 labs, 1.78 lakhs crores amount R&D developed products are now in production, so it shows the strength of DRDO.

Around 2:45 (then she asks about the two tanks behind her, actually she asks about "the two matters")
If you look at India, there are two main projects. One is Main Battle Tank, Arjun, another is light combat aircraft, Tejas. CVRDE is proud to be involved in both projects. MBT Arjun Mark - I, that's what you're looking at over here (on right side). This one, after all kinds of trials were finished and the user acceptance trials, we've delivered 2 regiments, almost 120 tanks, deployed to the border and operational. Army is very happy about them. After looking the the performance though, Army wanted some more improvements, because today world is improving a lot, so after you add the latest technologies, you can bring about another tank, so here we have Arjun mark II (on left side) -- this has 19 major improvements and 69 minor improvement points. So total 85 improvements together, we added on this tank (Mark I) and we made it as a MBT Mark II. The speciality is that within 2 years, we could come out with a product. So for Arjun mark I, people say we took 20 years for it, but if you look today, we are very strong, because we learnt how to do it all and so we can prove that we can do it fast, in just 2 years we produced this new tank and it is almost done with user trials and MBT Mark II, we are expecting more numbers shortly.

4:00 Ok, so Indian Army will start using this weapon soon?
Dr. S: definitely
So, could you let us know about the special features of this tank (MBT mark II)
Major thing if you look, you may have seen missiles, like ones from DRDO are surface to surface, surface to air etc. But now we have tank fired missiles, we actually proved there is such a thing on Arjun in 2004. Army said we want this for production and so one of the important capabilities of Mark II is that it can fire missiles. Besides that, there is this thing called Commanders Panoramic Sight. Tank's most important leader is the commander. He has to know what is happening with 360 degree surveillance, should be able to see at day or night, so all these improvements, we have done in the commander's panoramic sight. One more improvement is the RCWS - Remote controlled weapons system, that is the loader can sit inside and can fire at low flying targets. Besides all this, look at the front and you'll see a track with mine plow. If you look, mines are the biggest problem today for the army. Not only outsiders, but also insiders create problems. So to remove these mines out of the way, we have this track with mine plow. One more thing is that if you see this (indicates a shape) shaped thing on top on the chassis and turret, that is the ERA - explosive reactive armor. Its purpose is, if you have a chemical energy weapon, how to protect the tank. We've made many improvements like this. The Arjun MBT mark I weight is 62 tons, mark II is 68 tons, but performance of Mark II is still better than Mark I, so we've done improvements in the mobility also.

Reporter: Ok, you've told us how you've put the best improvements in here, what else is new and improved in the Indian Army in 2015, is there something you are going to implement?
Dr. S: If you look at manned vehicles, we have Arjun Mark I and Mark II, but we are also planning for the futuristic tank. It can be the next generation main battle tank. How we are going to design and produce the next gen MBT, we've already done some feasibility studies, we've almost started development of subsystems also. So that is the future plan.

Reporter: So from your point of view, if you compare India with other countries, where do you think we've improved?
Dr. S: Good example is Arjun MBT Mark II. Today if you look around the world, for this type of tank technologies, I'm proud to say that Arjun Mark II is one of the leading ones. That shows we have good technologies, and within DRDO, CVRDE, combat vehicle development, we can do it very fast too, prime example is mark II. So definitely from tank point of view, we're definitely ahead.

7:00
Reporter: Ok, so R&D usually takes long time, but you've managed to get this done in a short time, so how do you make this a success.
Dr. S: Normally, for research, it takes some time to come to some stage. Now that we've attained that stage, from now on, we can deliver very fast. That's why I said, Arjun Mark II - 2 years, Catapult - 1 year, reason we can do all this is because we have sound basics.

Reporter: on this republic day, special occasion, what would you like to tell the audience.
Dr. S: First thing we need from education perspective is a questioning capability (i.e.) students should ask questions. Students are all studying and getting good marks, but what is lacking compared to other countries is we lack the questioning mindset, that is the first point. Second point is that basic research is missing. Basic science research. So younger generation should concentrate more on R&D, it is very essential from country's point of view. So Kalam says that by 2020, India should become a developed country then, basic research is very important.


Around 8:30 Reporter: after learning all matters about this tank, I've gained respect about it. Now I desire to go for a ride, please follow me.

After some difficulty, I got in this tank and now that I'm in, I'm safely seated inside it. While I'm standing or sitting inside it, I have this divine feeling, because so many people put in hard work and I feel blessed to be in it and am thrilled.

9:30 Reporter: Arjun Mark I and II, Dr. Shivakumar explained some details about them. To learn more, we are going to talk to Program Director Balamurugan. Hello sir. We are eager to learn more information about this tank.
Balamurugan: What you're looking at here is Arjun Mark I tank, CVRDE's main product. We developed this well and users did lots of trials on it. If you look at this tank, it has firepower and it can aim accurately and take out an enemy tank, then it has mobility to get to an enemy tank, also it has protection, if the enemy tank attacks us, we can still continue to fight back. With all these 3 combined, we have developed this tank.
Reporter: Ok sir, can we know about the Mark II.
Balamurugan: What you're looking at here is Arjun MBT Mark II. Behind the development for this tank, there are a lot of stakeholders, apart from DRDO. Director has told you a lot about DRDO, but besides DRDO there are a lot of others input involved too. There you see mark I, if you look at improvements for Mark II over Mark I, 5 agencies consulted together to make this in 2010. We decided on 85 improvements and we only started development in 2010. But if you look, by 2012, we fielded one prototype. It is a big matter to put a tank together in only 2 years. I've told you about numerous improvements over Mark I, because of these improvements, this is one of the world's leading tanks, comparable to any tank in the world, this is one of the best.

11:22 Reporter now talking to Additional Director Mr. Balaguru. Everyone has been telling us about this tank's numerous special features. What do you want to say about this model?
Mr. Balaguru: If you talk about any tank, there are two major systems: Chassis and automotive system. What you're seeing down below, that is chassis and automotive system.
On top of that, we have turret and weapons system. So to take the turret and weapons system anywhere, cross country etc. to give it mobility, that is the job of the chassis and automotive system. So inside this, we have protection as well as firepower. So once we've integrated all these systems together, you have a tank.

Reporter: So you've told us the basic matters about this tank, now can we take a look inside.
(they climb on top)
Mr. Balaguru: What you're looking at here is the driver's compartment. In other vehicles, the driver's seat is adjustable. In here, there are two adjustable positions: head out and head in. When in a battlefield, driver goes inside and everything is closed and that is the head in driving. Outside the battlefield, the seat can come up for head out driving. Without looking at the equipment, the driver can drive without vision equipment, just by looking outside.
Reporter: Now can I take a look inside.
Mr. B: Of course.
Mr. B: Can you see the steering? In the center there is the brake pedal, right extreme is the accelerator pedal, like in the normal automobiles. In the front are two displays. That's the dashboard, with the speedometer and all vital parameters related to mobility will be displayed.
Reporter: Besides the straight view, there is also a side view...
Mr. B: Yes, you can view the complete profile in the front. This here is the day periscope. Besides that, we have the DNS - Driver's Night Sight. You can drive with this even in pitch dark conditions.
Reporter: yes right, so you can see clearly in any weather conditions and any kind of lighting.
Mr. B: Yes we can drive anytime

13:34: Reporter: So you've told us about driver's side oart, but tell us the part where you aim the missiles
Mr. B: This here is the crew compartment or fighting compartment, I already mentioned it earlier. What you're seeing here (points to left side) is the commander's hatch (i.e.) it is a door. From here, the commander of the tank, he will sit here. Now if you look inside the hatch, you will see a seat there, that is the gunner's seat. That's the one that aims and fires the gun. The commander, as the director mentioned, will do 360 degree surveillance with CPS (Commander's Panoramic Sight) and pick the next target and tell the gunner. The seat (pointing to the right hatch), that is the loader's seat. If you ask what a loader does, he takes the ammunition (from the back) and loads the gun. The place where these three people sit is the crew compartment or fighting compartment. This is where all the aiming devices and displays are all here.

14:30: Reporter: Now they've told us some interesting details of Arjun tanks, it was very useful. Now for electrical subsystems ...
Lady (caption says her name is Birbavathi, Additional Director (ELECTRICAL)): If you look this tank is a monster, a 60 ton monster. First, we have starting and generating system. To start this, we have 8 batteries inside. Each one is 100 ampere-hour. We have them hooked in series parallel combination for a total of 400 amp-hour, 24 volts. This is all DC because we can't use AC for mobile applications. You might have noticed in the driver's compartment, for the first time ever, we have introduced a digital display inside this tank. Before this, it was all analog displays. Now in latest cars, you have the CAN bus, in this tank here, we have also digitised the engine control. So, from the driver's compartment the signals go to the engine compartment and feed back comes back and so on. All of this comes under electrical system.

15:30 Reporter: Now to tell us more, Additional Director of Running Gear System, Dr. Solomon is with us. Please tell us about the speciality of the running gear system.
Dr. S: If you look at the speciality of this, the suspension system, this is one of the latest advanced systems in the world. This is a hydro-gas suspension system. If you look at this tank, it is a cross-country vehicle. Unlike other vehicles, this cross country vehicle, as a battle tank, it has to go over different terrain: boulders, rocky terrain, river terrain. It has to go over all places, it has to negotiate all ground undulations, that is why we have here this track system. This track is a mobile platform, or we can call it a mobile roadway. So this whole tank rolls on the tracks. If you look at this suspension system, it has very soft cushioning. So the crew and the sophisticated equipment are very safe inside. One more thing is this tank's main requirement is firing accuracy. To achieve this firing accuracy, the main reason is the running gear system, because it provides what we call "primary stabilization". Because our stability is good, that is why our gun is also very accurate. Also if you look, this track is a rubberized track. It is a steel tread, but you can take this tank on normal paved roads as well and it won't damage the roads. It is actually rubber padded and if you look at a wheeled vehicle, the same concept like rubber tires, we have these rubber pads here (embedded in the tracks). It won't damage the roads and also, we have this thing called High Frequency Vibrations, these pads will absorb them as well and because of this, the crews inside will experience good comfort.

18:00: Reporter: We've learned lots of details about this tank, now we want to learn about communications:
Lady (caption says her name is Savitri and she's Additional Director (COMMN & IT): When we talk about communications, internal communications is by wired, external communication is via wireless. If you look at this wireless communication, we can talk over total of 40 km, though we really only need range of 25 km. In that 25 km., if you look, this communication has two parts. That is, if you look at tank roles, there is gun tank, control tank, command tank, different roles, so depending on the role the communication is different. So if you look at gun tanks, from one tank to the next, there is very little distance between them, like 500 meters apart. So when they are that close, wireless communication doesn't need to be high powered. So with a 5 watt radio set, for upto 5 km. range, we can use 5 watt radio set. But the same radio set also has a high power option. When we flip it to 50 watts, then then we can talk over longer ranges, like 25 km. So if you look at this, a squadron commander, in a regiment there are 3 squadrons, and each squadron has 12 + 3 tanks and they
can talk within themselves, then they can also communicate from one squadron to another and throughout the regiment, we can also establish a network of communication. We can do both voice communication and data communication from one tank to another. Also I talked about intra tank communication which is wired, one crew member can talk to another crew member and they can also transfer messages, similar to how we transfer messages in cell phones. Say I cannot talk because there is some secret that I don't want to talk about with voice, or say the driver can talk to commander and commander can talk to gunner, but driver doesn't need to be distracted by the details to the gunner. We can also send messages from one tank to another, we have comm. facilities for that also.

20:45: Reporter: Sir, this place looks different. What is going on here?
Gent (no name caption or title given): Here in this simulator, we provide training. Because to give training with an actual tank is a costly proposal. Therefore we've created this simulator, so a battle tank commander, gunner, driver etc. we can give them training right here. So if you give us a fresh Army jawan recruit, we can give them all training in this simulator. For example: for a driver, how to drive the tank and cross different obstruction conditions, how to drive under different environmental conditions, all this practice can be done in this driving simulator.
Reporter: May we see the process?

21:25: Now here, if we're really driving a tank, what you feel here is what you'll experience there. So if he applies the brake here, you'll feel the forward movement. When he climbs that obstacle, you'll feel the same vehicle disturbance that you feel in reality. (to off screen person) Please drive over there slowly. See, in between the path there is a ditch, he will climb over that as well and you'll feel the effect and the scene changes with the driver's actions and the vehicle disturbances, we synchronize all of this. It is a challenging task to do this, but we've done it all indigenously. In India, this is the first troop training facility ever.

22:15: Reporter: This is a visual treat. Normally training looks a bit boring, but this type of training looks real interesting. And what is this coming up herehere.
Gent: This is a water obstacle. We call this a fording exercise. If you look on the side, it is a rocky surface. And when you travel over a rocky surface, you feel a disturbance. Now we're completely in the water and when you float in the water, immediately it feels different, as if like a floating object.
Reporter: Yes,yes I can feel it
Gent: And now when we come out again, we feel the jerky movements. So we've worked out the vehicle dynamics in an excellent manner.

22:55 Reporter: We hope you've enjoyed watching our full day tour. So we've come to this spot and learned what these hard working people are doing and such a large process is happening here. When we hear about war, we think of all the brave people fighting in the armed forces, but behind them there is this mind and this technology and the people working towards its success, that I feel proud about and I have to salute the people working here. Until then, this is Kritika telling you all bye ...




Last edited by srai on 30 Jun 2015 03:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Last edited by srai on 30 Jun 2015 03:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Defence Line Army's Battle With Arjun 23 June 2012



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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 03:39 
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Arjun variants:

Arjun Catapult 130-mm Self-Propelled Gun


Arjun BLT Armored Bridgelayer


Bhim: Prototype 155-mm self-propelled howitzer
Image


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 04:10 
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^they should actually operate that 130mm catapult from a bmp, and make it look tfta.

i think it is time we project tfta-izing arjun. more electronic and remote controls, and no-strings attached! :)


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 16:09 
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Treasure trove of info:
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... 14_WEB.pdf


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 17:06 
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Can we start building up awareness among different people through SM over the advantages of the Arjun tank so that it finally reaches the decision making people of the government?


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 18:19 
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dwaipayandhar wrote:
Can we start building up awareness among different people through SM over the advantages of the Arjun tank so that it finally reaches the decision making people of the government?


Will need to make a lot of noise onn social media an if need be over the streets.

Cant allow massive armata/tamata imports ..

Under the aegis of Make in India - New DPP, Defence ministry *must* make a comprehensive negative list for items barred from Import.

Its time for DM to tell the jernails that if they dont have the foresight about developing and nurturing Indian MIC, the DM will be forced to take requisite action.

LCA and Arjun *cannot* be allowed to go the Marut way. :evil:


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 19:00 
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Quote:
Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 4h4 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
Arjun's developers don't really expect any more orders for the Arjun tank from the Army. CVRDE folks are disappointed.


No wonder the pakis are buying used T-55s. Who needs good tanks to face the tincans in the IA. Good going DGMF.


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 20:15 
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Arun Menon wrote:
Quote:
Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 4h4 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
Arjun's developers don't really expect any more orders for the Arjun tank from the Army. CVRDE folks are disappointed.
Why don't members write to the Honourable Raksha Mantri on this, as well as to the media?

Seriously, with Make in India, and the fact that Arjun is a better tank, DGMF needs to be answerable.

Saurav or Vishnu could do a program on this.


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 20:31 
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i was looking at how the archer truck mounted gun evolved..it has a distinctive big box thing around its base which rotates with the gun and feeds in shells. almost like a turret http://www.armourbook.com/uploads/forum ... 596138.jpg

well it turns out decades ago the swedes built a tracked vehicle called the Bandkannon with this design....and they have invested and kept their domestic programs alive over the course of time, not used the easy sugar of importing a german or american gun. it had a burst fire of mode of emptying mags of 7+7 shells in 14 secs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrYFUokLMmk

archer is a bandkannon-MKI on a truck. thats what domestic R&D building blocks does for you.


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 22:41 
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Mk2 orders should be bumped up to about 500 tanks before IA may consider any future MBT design GSQR.

we don't want to hear armata crap floating around for anytime in the near 100 years. pakistan destruction began when chinese said arjun is superb!


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PostPosted: 30 Jun 2015 23:22 
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Mr Manish_P. Your comparison is very one sided.\
You have merely stated what the Arjun can do but teh T 90 cannot do.

What about the important activities that T 90 can do and Arjun cannot do ?

Arjun cannot give any kickbacks.


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 04:04 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Posts: 8540
Location: Land of Kimchi
Arun Menon wrote:
Quote:
Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 4h4 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
Arjun's developers don't really expect any more orders for the Arjun tank from the Army. CVRDE folks are disappointed.

:( :( :(


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 08:03 
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BRFite

Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59
Posts: 151
[Cross Posting from the Armoured Vehicles thread]
Folks,

The Arjun saga has now transcended the ridiculous. This repeated rejection of a far superior domestic product over a failed import that did not even get traction in its country of origin, tells a story of stupidity, incompetence and venality that is unrivalled globally. While I appreciate the effots of niran, Santosh, Praval et al, I am looking to do more, and take the fight to the Internet, hitting the tin can supporters and DDM as hard as possible. I am ready to purchase a domain, and spend as much of my time as possible adding content and pushing it on Google to rank as high as possible in search results so as to get the word out to the public.

I cannot do this alone, since my knowledge is fairly shallow. I am looking for people, especially experts, to work with me to generate content (the Arjun MBT thread will be my first source, but more info will be appreciated), and also help with postings to other forums such as DFI, Keypubs etc. Let's do our bit to help the Arjun. If you are interested, please drop me an email at t h e a r j u n s a g a (at) g m a i l dawt c o m.

Thank you.


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 14:23 
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BRFite

Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34
Posts: 138
@Hobbes

Understand and Appreciate your feelings about putting words to action

It was due to similar feelings that i wanted to have a separate thread for the MBT Arjun

BRF has a reputed standing of it's own, especially among the knowledgeable and perhaps even among those in positions of power/influence

Likewise it has better chance of getting higher and faster search ratings on google than a new website

The more facts and points put in this specific thread (including proven counters to falsehoods, DDM, plain lobbying etc) the better, and more importantly faster, it will be to gather momentum for any branching out campaigns on other sites, forums etc

From my side, i am trying to search and cross post in this thread, the following:
a) detailed facts based posts, articles on the abilities and performance of MBT Arjun
b) good discussion points about the merits of MBT Arjun over other existing/proposed products
c) proven falsehoods, DDM etc about MBT Arjun
d) proven false claims about competitive products

I am hampered at the moment because of the lack of depth of my knowledge about Armor. Hence am taking more time than i expected due to being extra cautious about deciding which posts to add here..

Hence my very humble request.

Could you (and other posters here) start by putting important posts concerning the MBT Arjun, in this thread.

Thank you


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 14:39 
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BR Mainsite Crew

Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47
Posts: 431
Location: New Delhi
Why is it so important for the DGMF to put an organisation's integrity into question over a tank which has performed well.

A couple of years and these Frunze CAA alumni would have all retired.


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 15:24 
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BRFite

Joined: 10 May 2005 09:47
Posts: 189
Location: Mumbai
How about a twitter campaign ?
We can have an hashtag #savetheArjun and make it trending .

Thing is, we have to agree on one hashtag and include it in all our tweets, along with
.> @manoharparrikar
.> #MakeinIndia
.> @PMOIndia
.> @narendramodi

Ask friends and family to use these hashtags and take it into top 10 trending.


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 18:11 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Posts: 29120
Location: Pandora Biosphere
MUST!!! go for it! Jee.. if BRF can't do it, who will?


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 19:25 
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Forum Moderator

Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Posts: 14801
Location: General Error : Bhery Phamous General !
take it to somewhere like petition.org and create a campaign. link it to twitter with a catchy hashtag for multiplier effect.

the article has to lucidly explain why killing arjun is a really bad step, with clearly understandable (to laypersons) datapoints and be succinct enough for folk to actually read it all.


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2015 20:08 
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BRFite

Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59
Posts: 151
All great ideas. I've started aggregating content for the web page, and would love to have people like Karan M, vaibhav.n, rohitvats and all the other gurus on the forum add their expertise to it. The web page can act as a backup to the online petition and to serve as content for the twitter and facebook campaigns.

Folks, especially gurus, chaiwallas, panwallas and doodhwallas, please step up and contribute your input, ideas and knowledge. Please email content to t h e a r j u n s a g a (at) g m a i l dawt c o m.


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