Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 23 Dec 2012 22:17

dated but relevant,

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ariel ... trend.html

There is no official answer to the question, but will Israel Aerospace Industries' (IAI) Barak-8 air defence missile be adapted for launch from airborne platforms?

While IAI sources confirm it is possible, they are not indicating whether such a move is planned.
.........

Thus, it can perform at much longer ranges, offering effective protection from aerial threats, manned and unmanned, as well as guided weapons.

Covering both low and high altitudes, the missile is designed for operation on board ships as well as for terrestrial applications.

Anyway the propulsion for this Barak 8 is from DRDO.

SSridhar wrote:Astra bang on target again - The Hindu
Asked what snags were overcome, he said: “We had some technical problems relating to the control structure. We made changes in the systems’ configuration and we have overcome the defects.”

“We are now readying the missile as per the user’s [the Indian Air Force’s] requirements”, he said.

In the latest launch, the 3.8-metre long and more than 300 kg heavy Astra flew at Mach-3— three times the speed of sound.

Another DRDO missile technologist said the flight “went off well and all the events occurred as per requirements.” Astra would be flight-tested again on Monday.

There will be three more flights from the ground in 2013. After that, it will be launched from different aircraft such as Sukhoi-30, MiG-29 and the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas.

Astra can hit targets flying 40 km away, that is, beyond visual range. If an enemy aircraft were to fly close, it will be registered in the aircraft that carries the missile. If the enemy was to fly 20 to 40 km away, the cockpit instruments cannot register it. Only radar signals will be received. Astra can adjust its speed to that of the enemy aircraft and home in on it.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Dec 2012 22:35

There is a convergence & maturity of the propulsion technology within DRDO for missiles. The dual-pulse rocket developed by DRDO is used in both LRSAM and Astra. It might be used in AAD too (I am not 100% sure). So, clearly, there has been a lot of progress made on this front and there is a high degree of confidence

I wouldnt be surprised at all if DRDO is working on Astra Mk2 in parallel.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Dec 2012 23:23

Austin wrote:tsarkar , it was confirmed some time back by Dr Pillai that Brahmos does not use US NAVSTAR GPS but has been using Russian GLONASS/GPS system and according to him link

BrahMos Aerospace Ltd., a Russian-Indian joint venture manufacturing supersonic cruise missiles, is successfully using Russian-built Glonass receivers for aiming and target acquisition, CEO Sivathanu Pillai said ....BrahMos missiles equipped with Glonass receivers acquire and effectively engage targets, Pillai told the Bengaluru Space Expo 2010 exhibition.
He said the receivers performed reliably and consistently.

Before 2011, GLONASS itself was offering dual Navstar GPS+GLONASS. The constellation was completed in December 2011

http://www.ciidefence.com/world-biz-Pre ... LONASS.pdf Check slides 2, 3 & 13.

Once the constellation was complete in 2011 end, precision signals were available from GLONASS. Check slide 3 and the following article http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 726888.ece

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Dec 2012 08:21

tsarkar wrote:Before 2011, GLONASS itself was offering dual Navstar GPS+GLONASS. The constellation was completed in December 2011

http://www.ciidefence.com/world-biz-Pre ... LONASS.pdf Check slides 2, 3 & 13.

These are for civilian and home defence applications , this was a proposal and right now there is some pilot project going on to use Dual GLONASS/GPS signals and equipment being manufactured for the same.

When specifically asked if US GPS was used and wheather it was spoofed Dr Pillai mentioned that they didnt use US GPS on Brahmos and was using Glonass now with the availability of precision signal it would get much better specially for targets that are within clusters half a meter accuracy would do a lot good with complimented with SCAN seeker.

Once the constellation was complete in 2011 end, precision signals were available from GLONASS. Check slide 3 and the following article http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 726888.ece

I saw a chart of glonass when it just has 18 satellites operational (off my head today they have 23 plus 3 reserve and 2 in maintenance ) and most of Russia was well covered and even India should fully covered and 80 % of ROW ...so it was a case of either you were covered or you were not , I think getting GLONASS signal over India even 5 years back with 18 sats were never a problem as long as you had the receiver for it. May be with 23 sats the signal accuracy over the same region would be much better as you have more sats to rely on.

From that link of hindu

The Indian security establishment had set its sights on Glonass after it conducted a post-mortem of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. It found that the U.S. had blocked GPS signals to Iraq and then inserted erroneous signals that left Saddam's generals virtually blind as far as beyond visual range and sighting and targeting was concerned.

“We found that the Iraqi Army got misled and weapons went awry,” said the sources.

During Georgia conflict US degraded GPS and introduced errors that would meant the accuracy was off mark by tens of Km according Yefim Gordon

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Dec 2012 09:13

For Russia, deepening friendship with India is a top foreign policy priority - Vladimir Putin, The Hindu

The joint operation of Russian global navigation satellite system GLONASS opens up broad prospects. The package of respective bilateral agreements has already been signed. We intend to promote practical interaction in that important area.

It is much more than merely receiving precision signals from GLONASS. It is a joint operation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2012 10:27

300kg is a heavy missile. the amraam is 155kg , r77 is 175-225kg.
if its the mk1 astra, it will surely be rejected by the IAF on the ground of weight

best case, it could be the derivative mk2 missile....

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 24 Dec 2012 10:35

Singha wrote:300kg is a heavy missile. the amraam is 155kg , r77 is 175-225kg.
if its the mk1 astra, it will surely be rejected by the IAF on the ground of weight

best case, it could be the derivative mk2 missile....

Probably, apples and oranges. The one tested was a ground launched version. You are comparing that with air launched ones.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Dec 2012 11:44

If its 300 kg its not Astra. Could be DDM 300 pounds?

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 24 Dec 2012 11:48

[quote="SSridhar"]For Russia, deepening friendship with India is a top foreign policy priority - Vladimir Putin, The Hindu

I thought this was greater step by russian to reach indian people.This is the first time i am seeing it.Atleast it feels russia nearer.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Dec 2012 11:52

Yup, a 140KG booster could have been used to simulate A to A from S to A.

AIM 9 series when used on US Nimitz class series as a last ditich missile defence weapon has a range of 2 miles A.K.A 3KM as compared to much larger ranges when carried by Aircraft.

Similarly, Derby and Python 5 when used in SPyder as ground Launched missiles have very limited ranges when compared to thier ranges when launched from Fighters.

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Dec 2012 12:01

Neither Astra 1 or 2 can be 300kg. For instance, if 276 kg LRSAM is used as BVR then it's max range may be around 300km.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 24 Dec 2012 14:50

Today third time in a week drdo test fire the astra a2a bvr. I think its a set of change or improvemets in design for which they need repeated test for the conformation. IANS

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Dec 2012 15:44

Not seeing any news regarding the 3rd test, even google chacha is not reporting anything, where did you get the news from?

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 24 Dec 2012 15:54

Aditya_V wrote:Not seeing any news regarding the 3rd test, even google chacha is not reporting anything, where did you get the news from?

Its on IDRW with details.post the link if you can.. It states monday ( means today) as the third test in this week. Kindly check on other reliable sources too for the conformation, b'cos I am also not getting any other link for the report thanks.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 24 Dec 2012 16:08

I got one, don't know how reliable this is

http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetai ... week-.html

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Dec 2012 16:11

toilet has it too, that too with prithvi missile image

John · Post by **John** » 24 Dec 2012 19:48

To put into perspective Super 530 weights about 275 Kg so it weights more than that hard to believe. But here is another report that states' the weight at 160 Kg. Super 530 is about the same length but has much bigger diameter than Astra so unless the missile is made of Gold or Tungsten, it is physically not possible.

The 3.8 metre long missile, having a diameter of 178 mm with an overall launch weight of 160 kg, can carry a warhead containing conventional explosives weighing 15 kg. It can be fitted to any fighter aircraft.

AIM 9 series when used on US Nimitz class series as a last ditich missile defence weapon has a range of 2 miles A.K.A 3KM as compared to much larger ranges when carried by Aircraft.

Aditya RAM which is based on AIM 9 has range of 10 km, the poor range ground launched range is due to seekers' limitations.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Dec 2012 20:00

So here we are, a lovely forum filled with gurus, sharp minds and great intellect. Confused about the range of the ASTRA, NIRBHAY and the AGNIs, BRAHMOS' etc.

No reflection on you fabulous posters, but why am I not surprised?

I like it this way!

Wouldn't we want this confusion in the minds of our adversaries?

We oohed and ahhed when a stealth helio was used in the OBL raid. Our guys have the right to some of our ooh's and ahhs!

One of the greatest oohs and ahhs I ever had is when the OSA class boats shoved missles up porkistuns @rse at Krachee in '71. Even the Russians were astonished.

Not to forget the great tank and aerial battles against them. Way to go Bharat!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2012 20:36

the long 18 month gap between these test and the last might indicate a mid course correction. perhaps two missiles using the same agat seeker are indeed in parallel development, with the original being mk1 and this fat one as a mk2 LRAAM deriving technologies from the explosive acceleration of the AAD motor which we have all seen.
a fatter missile also permits a bigger battery and bigger aperture of the terminal stage radar while radar back end remains same...agat can manage that v1 and v2 thing on our spec.

its makes great sense to introduce both in parallel because the world is not waiting and we needed both yesterday. we cannot afford a long drawn 6 + 6 yr serialized development if we want to get anywhere. Cheen , US , Russia each have a couple dozen missile projects going on in parallel.

with a anti radiation seeker and special pods on the launch a/c can become a ARM as well in place of the russian-aircraft only KH31P and the armat which is not confirmed if we purchased any with the m2k.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Dec 2012 21:24

vic wrote:Neither Astra 1 or 2 can be 300kg. For instance, if 276 kg LRSAM is used as BVR then it's max range may be around 300km.

Referring to Akash surface-to-air missile system, he said the next aim was to develop a 300 km range SAM. Besides, it was also planned to develop air-to-surface missile having a range of 400 km and air-to-air missile of 300 km range.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/and ... 706707.ece

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Dec 2012 21:29

rajanb wrote:Wouldn't we want this confusion in the minds of our adversaries?

Way to go Bharat!

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 24 Dec 2012 21:54

Lauding the achievements of HILS during the past 25 years, he said RCI had developed advanced technology of avionics, including navigation systems and was now on the verge of developing navigation on chip, telemetry on chip, seeker on chip and entire avionics on a single board.

Awesome this will bring down the missile weight tremendously.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 24 Dec 2012 22:10

The operative term being 'verge', India is always on the verge of many great things.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 24 Dec 2012 22:14

rajanb wrote:So here we are, a lovely forum filled with gurus, sharp minds and great intellect. Confused about the range of the ASTRA, NIRBHAY and the AGNIs, BRAHMOS' etc.

No reflection on you fabulous posters, but why am I not surprised?

I like it this way!

Wouldn't we want this confusion in the minds of our adversaries?

We oohed and ahhed when a stealth helio was used in the OBL raid. Our guys have the right to some of our ooh's and ahhs!

One of the greatest oohs and ahhs I ever had is when the OSA class boats shoved missles up porkistuns @rse at Krachee in '71. Even the Russians were astonished.

Not to forget the great tank and aerial battles against them. Way to go Bharat!

I am also thinking along those lines. Prithvi test then again another Prithvi test and then another Ram Jane kaoun missile test. It is a trick onlee. It is to konfuj you know whom. I distinctly remember 13th May 1998. BBC 's News hour at 1400 CET. Bakistani Information minister giving interview and doing hulla gulla over 11th may Nuclear test by Bharat. Just then (live) one reporter asked him " Sir what do have to say about today's tests". Minister was like "WHAT? WHEN ? WHERE? HAVE THEY TESTED AGAIN?

Such was the level of deception.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 24 Dec 2012 22:17

sanjaykumar wrote:The operative term being 'verge', India is always on the verge of many great things.

No need to be pessimistic they have been working on these things for a long time and I guess in a decade they will come online.

nash · Post by **nash** » 24 Dec 2012 22:34

Next ohh ahh moment will be Nirbhay with 2K+ range.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 24 Dec 2012 22:36

from our ITR specialist.

one note though - there aren't three different versions for different altitudes. That data just pertains to what intercepts are possible at what altitude and range for Mk-1

India on Saturday successfully test-fired a reconfigured version of its beyond visual range (BVR) new generation air-to-air missile 'Astra' from the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur off the Odisha coast.

Defence sources said, the missile was fired from the launching complex – II of the ITR at about 3.30 pm. The missile successfully intercepted a pilotless target aircraft (PTA) – Lakshya, flown around 15 minutes prior to the launching of the missile, mid air. The test came a day after a similar trial conducted from the same test range.

ITR Director MVKV Prasad said the mission was successful as it validated all data as expected. “The missile was fired against a live pilotless target aircraft. The interception was done at an altitude of 4 km. All the mission objectives have been met,” he told ‘The New Indian Express’.

The trial was reportedly carried out to test the missile’s reconfigured guidance systems, avionics and the functioning of the communication in Radio Frequency. Entirely a complex missile Astra has been designed to intercept fast-moving aerial targets at supersonic speeds.

Developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Astra is designed for an 80-km range in head-on mode and 20 km-range in tail-chase mode. As an anti-aircraft missile it can be fired after receiving a signal from the far away target through its onboard manoeuvres based on radio frequency.

“One of its versions having 90 to 110 km range can cruise at an altitude of 15 km, another having a range of 44 km can destroy a target at an altitude up to 30,000 ft while the third one with a range of 30 km is capable of hitting the target at sea level altitude,” said a defence scientist.

After the post mission analysis, a source informed that though the missile did not directly hit the PTA, but it destroyed the target through its onboard proximity fuse, which means the missile passed very close to the aircraft and hence the mission was accomplished.

Astra is a ‘state of the art’ being developed for the air force. The 3.8 metres long missile, which has launch weight about 154 kg, uses solid-fuel propellant and a 15 kg high-explosive warhead, activated by a proximity fuse.

Sources said there would be another test on Monday when the missile is expected to intercept a simulated electronic target, which will be followed by launches from various aerial platforms.
“After the developmental trials, the DRDO would go for aerial tests of the missile. Though it is an air-to-air missile, the tests on Friday and Saturday were conducted from specially built ground launchers,” Prasad said.

The launch was witnessed by Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister and DRDO chief Vijay Kumar Saraswat, CC R&D (Missiles and Strategic Systems) Avinash Chander, DRDL Director AK Chakrabarti, Astra Program Director N Prabhakar and Project Director S Venugopal.

http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... 390559.ece

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Dec 2012 22:43

After today's launch, it seems that missile has been tested around 21 times. I hope we reach user trials soon!

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Dec 2012 23:07

Kanson wrote:
vic wrote:Neither Astra 1 or 2 can be 300kg. For instance, if 276 kg LRSAM is used as BVR then it's max range may be around 300km.

Referring to Akash surface-to-air missile system, he said the next aim was to develop a 300 km range SAM. Besides, it was also planned to develop air-to-surface missile having a range of 400 km and air-to-air missile of 300 km range.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/and ... 706707.ece

300km SAM can be (i) modified AAD 1250 kg (ii) modified PDA (?Kg) (iii) Booster + LRSM/MRSAM (500-1000kg)

300km AAM can be (i) LRSM/MRSAM modified to be air launched (276kg)

400km air to surface missile can be (i) Brahmos 2500kg (ii) Supersonic LRCM 1000-1500 kg (iii) Nirbhay1000-1500kg (iii) modified AAD 1200kg

Nano PGM can be (i) Modification or development of man portable NAG missile 10-20kg

No mention of ARM which DRDO was supposed to be developing? Can be a modified LRSAM/MRSAM 300kg with range of 100km or even modified AAD or LRCM

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 24 Dec 2012 23:14

rsingh wrote:
rajanb wrote:So here we are, a lovely forum filled with gurus, sharp minds and great intellect. Confused about the range of the ASTRA, NIRBHAY and the AGNIs, BRAHMOS' etc.

No reflection on you fabulous posters, but why am I not surprised?

I like it this way!

Wouldn't we want this confusion in the minds of our adversaries?

We oohed and ahhed when a stealth helio was used in the OBL raid. Our guys have the right to some of our ooh's and ahhs!

One of the greatest oohs and ahhs I ever had is when the OSA class boats shoved missles up porkistuns @rse at Krachee in '71. Even the Russians were astonished.

Not to forget the great tank and aerial battles against them. Way to go Bharat!
I am also thinking along those lines. Prithvi test then again another Prithvi test and then another Ram Jane kaoun missile test. It is a trick onlee. It is to konfuj you know whom. I distinctly remember 13th May 1998. BBC 's News hour at 1400 CET. Bakistani Information minister giving interview and doing hulla gulla over 11th may Nuclear test by Bharat. Just then (live) one reporter asked him " Sir what do have to say about today's tests". Minister was like "WHAT? WHEN ? WHERE? HAVE THEY TESTED AGAIN? Such was the level of deception.

If i remember it correct that was the Chinese reaction.

On Astra, this is great news. One more idea gaining traction. What would be the likely range in hi-hi-hi. 110 should be hil launch lo intercept. hein ji.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 24 Dec 2012 23:41

400 km ARM can be air-launched Prahaar no?

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 25 Dec 2012 00:27

Why cant the ASTRA be used as a SAM by the IN ships and ground forces - more on the lines of spyder.
Makes me wonder why is Akash bigger but offers less capabilities.
To my laymen vision, ASTRA as SAM seems more capable as it is smaller, has integrated seeker, faster and has somewhat similar range when fired from sea level.

John · Post by **John** » 25 Dec 2012 00:58

Neeraj,
For that to happen we need to develop a Vertical launch mechanism a boxy launcher like what was proposed for Trishul is simply not acceptable. Not to mention what exactly does it offer that Barak-8 doesn't have rather have drdo focus the effort on other endeavors , IMO it would better substitute for Spyder system once the missile is adopted by IAF.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 25 Dec 2012 01:51

Well - the current tests are ground launched only (as per LiveFist) and Barak 8 is not indigenous. Barak 8 is also meant for an anti missile role. But you are right, I do agree that first Astra should be proven in AAM role before looking at spinoffs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Dec 2012 04:08

rsingh, That was the Chinese reaction on 13 May 1998

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Dec 2012 08:20

Third Astra Launch Too a Success - The Hindu

The launch of Astra, India’s air-to-air missile, for the third day on Monday from a static launcher on the ground at Chandipur, Odisha, proved to be a success. The flight-trials on December 21 and 22 from fixed launchers were equally successful.

On Monday, Astra manoeuvred at 22g (gravitational force) and intercepted an electronic target with 6g. The three triumphs in a row have paved the way for its launch from an aircraft next year. While Friday’s launch too was against an electronic target, Astra destroyed Lakshya, a pilotless target aircraft, the next day.

“It is ready for air-to-air launch,” asserted S. Venugopal, Project Director, Astra, on Monday. He attributed the success of the launches to a young team of engineers of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), aged between 25 and 35 years. They did it by striking “a balance among the stability, controllability and agility of the missile, its vehicle dynamics, control algorithms and on-board technology,” Mr. Venugopal said. “They have developed some of the best technologies for Astra. No country in the world has demonstrated such a successful system in three consecutive launches.” The Astra launched last week and on Monday was a totally reconfigured vehicle. “The configuration is absolutely new. Everything has been changed,” he said. While the earlier Astra weighed 300 kg, the present one weighs 168 kg and is 3.8-metres long.

After three more ground-to-air launches next year, Astra will be fired from aircraft such as Sukhoi-30 MI, MiG-29 and the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, DRDO officials said. It can be launched from different altitudes and the distance at which it can kill an enemy aircraft depends on the altitude from which it is fired.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Dec 2012 08:23

Looks like they changed everything inside the missile to address the structural weakness seen earlier. Now wonder there was a no news for close to a year or so. Let us hope they get it right this time.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Dec 2012 08:24

In 2009 itself, Astra's captive flight trials had been conducted on a Su-30MKI. It should have been then a 300Kg Astra. Now that the weight reduction has been achieved to the earlier specs, captive flight tests of the new missile may be needed before electrically & electronically connecting Astra to the a/c.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Dec 2012 08:53

the weight and length is very similar to amraam now and lighter than aa12, far lighter than older kit like super530d and sparrow.

the reason for the initial 530Dish 300kg weight probably was they were trying to clone and improve it, but somewhere in between better sense prevailed.

with good lifting strakes might be good as a LRAAM though.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Dec 2012 09:51

vic wrote:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/and ... 706707.ece

300km SAM can be (i) modified AAD 1250 kg (ii) modified PDA (?Kg) (iii) Booster + LRSM/MRSAM (500-1000kg)

300km AAM can be (i) LRSM/MRSAM modified to be air launched (276kg)

400km air to surface missile can be (i) Brahmos 2500kg (ii) Supersonic LRCM 1000-1500 kg (iii) Nirbhay1000-1500kg (iii) modified AAD 1200kg

Nano PGM can be (i) Modification or development of man portable NAG missile 10-20kg

No mention of ARM which DRDO was supposed to be developing? Can be a modified LRSAM/MRSAM 300kg with range of 100km or even modified AAD or LRCM

Doubt if 300 km SAM would be developed out of AAD. Prahaar goes only 150 km even with full benefit of a ballastic flight.

300 km SAM could be a proposal for modifying Shaurya. The trajectory characterstics are, relatively speaking, easier to modify. A few BRF members have batted for such a SAM/ABM. Prima facie seems reasonable and we should be able to mount 2/3/4 on a big TEL.

PDA too seems rather flimsy for the kind of demands that would be made on such a missile unless we are talking about a two stage thing where the second stage is the kill vehicle.

So far as 'LRSAM/MRSAM with booster' suggestion is concerned, I thought LRSAM/MRSAM itself would be pushed with a booster. If a new booster is planned then that would be one massive booster.

Also the guidance system for the whole package would be an interesting thing.

JM 2 Paisa