Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Boreas
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Boreas »

nits wrote:A very silly Q - does our current AAD shield us from Cruise missile attack also... ? If No is india developing one ?
1. As our babus don't believe in encouraging good deeds of our scientists
2. And as there is not much money left after scams and national charity schemes

So answer is no, at best it will cover 2-3 cities starting with dilli and may be in next 5 years mumbai than next 5 years kolkata aur chennai.

Rest should start having faith in reincarnation.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Boreas »

ahh... in an imaginary world, what a sight it would be.. if we had a chain of radars lined up all around our pretty nation.. from tsp to panda border and than covering the whole arrow head in the Indian Ocean.. guiding a three layerd MD ready to shoot mid-air any thing our jihadi and commie neighbours would have thrown at us. alas!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sum »

User trial of A-1 at ITR:
Agni 1 ballistic missile was successfully launched from the Wheeler Island by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) today at 0815 hrs. The DRDO developed medium range ballistic missile from the production lot was launched as part of regular training exercise by the armed forces from the range located at wheeler island off the coast of Odisha. All the mission objectives were met successfully.

The launch was witnessed by Dr. Vijay Kumar Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to Raksha Mantri, Secretary, Deptt of Defence R&D, and DG DRDO; Shri Avinash Chander, Distinguished Scientist, Program Directer Agni & Chief controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems; DR V G Sekhran, Director ASL, Dr. J Chattopadhyaya, Project Director; Shri G. Satheesh Reddy, Associate Director RCI, Shri MVKV Prasad, Director, ITR and top brass of the Strategic Forces Command.
Dr. Saraswat congratulated the Armed Forces and all the DRDO personnel.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Yet another Agni-I test!!!
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true
The single-stage, solid-propelled missile was launched by the personnel of the Strategic Forces Command at 8.15 a.m. from a road mobile launcher. The entire operation was supervised by Defence Research and Development Organisation's missile technologists, who described the mission as a success and said that all the objectives were met.
Congratulations to BDL and SFC for the successful launch. is Agni-I the new Prithvi!!!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by suryag »

I think the topguns like VKS/AC/VGS mentioned above should reduce travel to witness Agni1/2/3 launches as they are routine now. Why waste their energy on these routine events
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

suryag wrote:I think the topguns like VKS/AC/VGS mentioned above should reduce travel to witness Agni1/2/3 launches as they are routine now. Why waste their energy on these routine events
which tells us this is not a routine test!!!. this is probably a prelude to the longer range ABM test...
it is high time A-1s take on the role of ABM targets.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

Wasn't K-15 supposed to be launched from a sub this week?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by disha »

Routine test of Agni I by SFC from production lot

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 190985.ece
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Shield in the Sky - TS Subramanian in Frontline
Exferpts
The November 23 mission featured two attacker (target) missiles, one electronically simulated and launched from 1,500 km away and the other real and launched from 600 to 1,000 km away. The tests tried to reproduce a scenario where multiple enemy missiles could be raining on India, and the aim was to pulverise them in their tracks. Since Indian territory does not have the range and geometry to launch a target missile from a distance of 2,000 km, the DRDO used an electronically simulated target missile. The radars picked up the target missile and tracked it, and an electronic interceptor missile was launched. The attacker was “electronically hit” by the “digital” interceptor at a height of 120 km, in the exo-atmosphere.

The real target missile, a modified Prithvi, took off from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur on the Odisha coast and mimicked the trajectory of a ballistic missile coming from an enemy country. Within seconds of its blast-off, radars at Paradip, Konark and Cuttack began tracking its path. Five minutes later, the Launch Control Centre on Wheeler Island, off the Odisha coast, gave the command to the interceptor to lift off from the island and destroy the incoming missile. The interceptor, an AAD system, featured a directional warhead, a proximity fuse and a radio frequency seeker.

Of these three, “the most critical technology” was the directional warhead. The seeker acted as the interceptor’s “eye” and calculated the velocity, position and direction of the “enemy” missile. The seeker conveyed all this information to on-board computers, which then directed the interceptor to manoeuvre itself close to the target. The AAD missile continuously received updates on the target’s position from the radars. As the attacker came down in a free fall, the interceptor’s on-board computer guided it towards the target at an altitude of 15 km. The radio proximity fuse ignited the directional warhead and the target missile was reduced to burning wreckage.

What was outstanding about the mission was that both interceptions took place near simultaneously. More importantly, this was the first time that the interceptions took place both in the endo-atmosphere and in the exo-atmosphere. “With this, we have demonstrated our confidence in deploying the system in full configuration where we can tackle multiple missiles coming together,” Avinash Chander said.

Saraswat told Frontline: “This kind of mission has been done only by the U.S. and Russia. This is an important development in our BMD shield development. With this launch, Phase I of the BMD shield is ready for deployment in 2013 or 2014.” India is the sixth country to have developed the BMD system. The others are the U.S., Russia, France, China and Israel.
The team led by C.G. Balaji, Associate Director, RCI, was responsible for the development and integration of the radio frequency seeker in the AAD missile.
Many new technologies, too, were tested in the mission. The most critical one was the directional warhead which destroyed the target missile. The target missile was speeding towards India at a velocity of 3 to 4 km per second. The interceptor was going towards it at 1.5 to 2 km per second. The relative speeds were 4 to 5 km per second, where there was less than one-thousandth of a second for the interceptor’s directional warhead to explode.

“The timing and accuracy of the warhead should be within that kind of time frame. The time for the warhead to explode in the kill zone is effectively less than 1/100th of a second. This is one of the key technologies demonstrated and established in this test,” Avinash Chander said.

Besides, all the network elements were integrated with both the main and the standby systems, which were operated, tested and established fully in this test. “The repeated interceptor tests [eight] have given a lot of confidence to the designer for freezing the systems’ configuration so that we can start planning for the production process,” Avinash Chander said.

Surprisingly, if India’s Agni-V launch in April 2012 attracted a lot of comments from China, there was no reaction from it about India’s decision to go ahead with Phase I of its BMD shield deployment in 2013 or 2014. On November 28, Pakistan successfully test-fired Hatf V, a medium-range ballistic missile capable of reaching targets in India. Hatf V can hit targets up to 1,300 km away.

India felt the requirement for a BMD shield in the late 1990s when Pakistan test-fired Ghauri missiles with ranges that threatened Indian cities. Besides, the Hatf missiles too can reach India. So India conceived a two-layered air defence system, in the exo-atmosphere and the endo-atmosphere, to protect its vital assets.
Rajaram Nagappa, Visiting Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies (NIAS), Bangalore, said China was getting into multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles (MIRVs), which could be integrated with its DF-31 and DF-41 missiles. These missiles are capable of firing multiple warheads. The DF-41 missile, it is claimed, has a range of 12,000 km. Pakistan is also interested in acquiring MIRVs. “With the MIRVs, the efficacy of the missile defence shield becomes more challenging,” said Prof. Nagappa.

China has a multilayered BMD shield. It has done interceptor tests in the exo-atmosphere, the endo-atmosphere and the mid-atmosphere. “Knowing the missile exchanges that have taken place between China and Pakistan, there is always a possibility of these missiles being developed in Pakistan with Chinese assistance,” Nagappa said. Besides its interceptor missile tests, China had carried out an anti-satellite test on January 11, 2007.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

The Rationale for more ranges
Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, told Frontline: “China has four [missile-testing] ranges. The U.S. has seven. We have only one. Now, if we have more than one range, we can have geometry in our territory. If I have two more ranges, one in Machilipatnam and the other in the Andamans, and also a floating test range, I can find a credible scenario where I can test my defence systems and launch systems in different directions to take care of incoming missiles with a range of 2,000 km to 5,000 km.

The DRDO is trying to set up ranges where there is no commercial activity. The 260-acre area near Machilipatnam where the range will come up, gets inundated most of the time, said Chander. No cultivation is going on there. Neither is the place inhabited.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Probably just a coincidence that the Agni-1 launch took place on the same day that North Korea fired its missile. But if it's not a coincidence, it would show that the Indian government, military and defense scientists do see NK as a possible adversary. It's pretty safe to say that NK would not escape the consequences of any Pak missile attack on India.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Will »

Bheeshma wrote:Wasn't K-15 supposed to be launched from a sub this week?

Maybe that is what was really tested in the garb of the Agni-I test ;)
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

SSridhar wrote:The Rationale for more ranges
Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, told Frontline: “China has four [missile-testing] ranges. The U.S. has seven. We have only one. Now, if we have more than one range, we can have geometry in our territory. If I have two more ranges, one in Machilipatnam and the other in the Andamans, and also a floating test range, I can find a credible scenario where I can test my defence systems and launch systems in different directions to take care of incoming missiles with a range of 2,000 km to 5,000 km.

The DRDO is trying to set up ranges where there is no commercial activity. The 260-acre area near Machilipatnam where the range will come up, gets inundated most of the time, said Chander. No cultivation is going on there. Neither is the place inhabited.
Just wait till some NGO finds a rare species of birds/turtles/monkeys in that area and take out a protest to prevent the formation of a missile test range (since it will affect the fornication cycle of the said species and cause heartache to said NGO). :((
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

and an agitation funded by some church is create and media managed.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Boreas »

http://idrw.org/?p=16556#more-16556

India wants license to produce Iron Dome : Israeli Media
The two countries are also developing a ground-to-ground missile. India media reports say that this is a program of India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), but that, in practice, Israel is a partner through three companies: Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) (TASE: ARSP.B1), its subsidiary Elta Sytems Ltd., andRafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd., according to sources quoted by “Defense News”. Shani and Sharma discussed extending the range of this missile from 1,000 kilometers to 3,000 kilometers.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Lilo »

^^
The "ground to ground missile" the article talks about , is it Nirbhay ..
and its range is being extended to 3000 KM ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Now that the NoKO sat launcher aka Missile has its fiorst flight we can expet it to make it into TSP arsenal with or without US blessing.
Here is TOI article with a picture of the vehicle.

Noko Rocket launch unwarranted:India

Cant seem to get the picture.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by suryag »

Good that India is talking about something not directly(indirectly via pakis) connected to our region
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Will »

Boreas wrote:http://idrw.org/?p=16556#more-16556

India wants license to produce Iron Dome : Israeli Media
The two countries are also developing a ground-to-ground missile. India media reports say that this is a program of India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), but that, in practice, Israel is a partner through three companies: Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) (TASE: ARSP.B1), its subsidiary Elta Sytems Ltd., andRafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd., according to sources quoted by “Defense News”. Shani and Sharma discussed extending the range of this missile from 1,000 kilometers to 3,000 kilometers.
In the Indian context it the Davids Sling system which has more relevance. The Iron Dome would be useful if its going to be used for tactical battlefield area defence embeded within strike groups.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_22872 »

newbie question, what is the probable route of noko missle transfer to TSP? is it by the sea?, air? didn't we intersect a ship load of some military hardware sometime back?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Based on the preceding discussion, if the warheads are in TSP, the long range rockets with NK, thats like recessed deterrence we used to talk about and they perhaps hope this keeps them under the US radar, and then there is the Chinese participation with storage facilities along mountain side tunnels in addition to TELs and guidance technologies.

US cannot take away the rapidly multiplying TSP nukes in an unilateral action, maybe NK's rockets are an easier target, although what can they do if the TELs are 'traveling' within China for few years, the Karakoram highway being built gives them access to TSP as well. TELs are camouflaged since it may not be possible from sat images to determine the Chinese ones from NK ones.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Anujan »

venug wrote:newbie question, what is the probable route of noko missle transfer to TSP? is it by the sea?, air? didn't we intersect a ship load of some military hardware sometime back?
By Unkil supplied transport planes.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Will wrote:The Iron Dome would be useful if its going to be used for tactical battlefield area defence embeded within strike groups.
With its capability to intercept battlefield missiles of 70 or 80 Km range fired in salvos, Iron Dome wold be ideally suited for our strike corps in view of MBRL Nasr and TNWs.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

^^Sridhar Saab, Is there any source that you know claiming Iron Dome to be useful against any kind of missiles? All I know and can find is that it is only used for shooting incoming shells/rockets and some kinds of PGM's, that are a lot slower then incoming theater missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

^ It shot down Fajr-5 missile which is between Pinaka and Smerch in terms of size.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20067 »

I am not sure about the efficacy of Iron Dome against Pakistan and China.. may be it is for point defense of strategic targets like rajdhani....the way Iron Dome was publicized in western media... it seemed the whole Israeli campaign against Hamas was just to market the product
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

John wrote:^ It shot down Fajr-5 missile which is between Pinaka and Smerch in terms of size.
Yes. But Fajr is more a rocket when compared to Nasr or Hatf1. I am not sure on the re-entry speeds the targets should have for Tamir to intercept them.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sarabpal.s »

dear I don't think iron dome is able to counter BM. IMHO it is concept based on radar coverage which detected rocket as soon as they are fired and calculate the path. but BM fired quite outside the radar parameters which cant detected BM early and by the time it detect ( I am doubtful about that it could detect) BM it would be too late. haven't seen the david sling's parameters.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

How effective would it be to put something like kasthan-M or Ak-630M on trucks and cue them with Rajendra or 3D-CAR radar to protect against a barrage of Pinaka style rockets?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

koti wrote:Yes. But Fajr is more a rocket when compared to Nasr or Hatf1. I am not sure on the re-entry speeds the targets should have for Tamir to intercept them.
MRLs are much bigger threat than Haft especially against PRC besides Akash will fill in that role. Cost wise Iron dome is cheap and will be used to provide protection for front line bases' and locations against MRL, Artillery, Mortars and PGM.

Bheeshma,
Russians have Pantsir which provides' that capability (unlike Iron Dome it will be lot more expensive and have limited 10 km intercept radius but will have far superior anti aircraft/heli capability) but IA after the problems it had with Tunguska will likely steer clear of this.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

John wrote:but IA after the problems it had with Tunguska will likely steer clear of this.
What problems?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

koti wrote:
John wrote:but IA after the problems it had with Tunguska will likely steer clear of this.
What problems?
Lack of Spares', malfunctions' and missile failed to perform adequately. Russians claim to have fixed the issues' and supplied a few of that but no subsequent orders. On that topic IN has chosen to go with Barak rather than improved variant of Kashtan.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Avarachan »

I don't think this link has been previously posted. In any event, I'm posting it now as a response to Vivek Ahuja's query in the scenarios thread.

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20121009/176500812.html
(October 9, 2012)

India has uprated its BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles by installing the advanced satellite navigation systems from Russia's Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic long-range cruise missiles, adding GPS-GLONASS technology to the existing doppler-inertial platform, Izvestia reported on Tuesday quoting sources in the military-industrial complex.

The integration of the navigation systems from Kh-555 will turn BrahMos, a supersonic cruise missile, into a "super-rocket" with almost a sub-strategic capability above its normal tactical range, capable of hitting targets over 180-300 miles (300-500 km), from sea, land and air launchers, and capable of being armed with a nuclear warhead, the source said ....

Analysts say the addition of satellite-based navigation systems will improve the weapon's accuracy.
“Conventional Doppler INS has an inherent drift, so the longer the range of the weapon, the larger the relative error," said Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies. "Introducing satellite navigation improves the missile’s positional accuracy. From an investment stand-point it also makes sense to re-use sub-systems that have already been developed.” Former Royal Navy Weapons Engineering officer Hugh Price agreed. "Satellite navigation means the missile will now be accurate to within a few meters," he said.
The combination of air-launched BrahMos with the Su-30 will give India a long-range strike capability similar to Russia's Tu-95MS and Tu-160 strategic bombers, said aviation analyst and editor of Vzlet magazine Vladimir Sherbakov.

________________________

Forgive this newbie question, but how is range calculated for a lo-lo-lo profile versus a hi-lo profile? If the BrahMos has a range of 500 km in a hi-lo profile, what would its range be in a lo-lo-lo profile?

Also, I don't even know that a BrahMos has to fly in a lo-lo-lo profile to be survivable ... I'm not an engineer, but this DRDO newsletter (page 8) says this:

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2011/january.pdf
(January 2011)

Block III version of BrahMos was successfully
flight-tested from Launch Complex III, at Integrated
Test Range (ITR), Chandipur, on 02 December 2010,
with advanced guidance and upgraded software,
incorporating high manoeuvres at multiple points and
steep dive from high altitude.

The "anti-aircraft-carrier" version of the BrahMos is based on the Block III (http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 268072.ece) ... It's interesting that the DRDO and the Indian Navy believe that something other than a sea-skimmer is survivable. This "steep dive from high altitude" seems more than a pop-up maneuver.

Again, I'm not an engineer, but a lot seems to be going on with the BrahMos ... I find it difficult to believe that its effectiveness and the effectiveness of the Moskit are roughly on par. Just my two cents. :)
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Avarachan »

While I'm on the subject, I'll also mention this. It's curious to consider the flight path of the Shaurya: that of a hypersonic cruise missile. The DRDO seems to believe in the survivability of an incredibly fast, high-flying, maneuverable missile. It seems to suggest that terrain-hugging is not the only means of avoiding anti-missile defenses. (I'm of course aware that the Shaurya flies considerably higher and faster than the BrahMos.)

I'm not an engineer, so this is just my two cents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaurya_missile
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Avarachan wrote:its effectiveness and the effectiveness of the Moskit are roughly on par
Nyet, Avarchan-osky. They are not at par. But then again, but it was never about Brahmos versus Moskit one on one, right? You can always under-utilize a missile and end up matching the upper limit of the enemy missile.

But this is good info you have here. Makes me want to update some stuff in the scenarios thread.

Thanks for taking the effort to post this.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Avarachan wrote:India has uprated its BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles by installing the advanced satellite navigation systems from Russia's Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic long-range cruise missiles, adding GPS-GLONASS technology to the existing doppler-inertial platform, Izvestia reported on Tuesday quoting sources in the military-industrial complex.
Always be careful with Izvestia they make good fictional writer and less of serious news source
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Austin wrote:
Avarachan wrote:India has uprated its BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles by installing the advanced satellite navigation systems from Russia's Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic long-range cruise missiles, adding GPS-GLONASS technology to the existing doppler-inertial platform, Izvestia reported on Tuesday quoting sources in the military-industrial complex.
Always be careful with Izvestia they make good fictional writer and less of serious news source
Hmm. Is there any way to confirm the information from this article via other sources?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Avarachan »

The news was carried by many Indian outlets, but they were all basing their stories on the Izvestia story.

I found the news credible because Izvestia named names, such as Douglas Barrie.

http://www.iiss.org/about-us/staffexper ... ?locale=en
Before joining the institute, Douglas Barrie was from 2002 the London bureau chief for Aviation Week & Space Technology. Previous professional positions include European editor of Defense News, defence aviation editor for Flight International, and deputy news editor for Jane’s Defence Weekly. His areas of interest include Russian and Chinese air power, and guided weaponry.

I'm not personally familiar with Barrie's work, but he's certainly worked for respected publications.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Avarachan »

Vivek, thanks for your kind words.

Sure, the naval commander could have made a mistake. As you said, it happens all the time in war. However, the quality of Indian naval officers is high ... I think a mistake like this is unlikely. Many BRF members feel that way, which is why you're getting some pushback regarding this particular scene. Anyway, don't let me distract you any more: please keep writing!

I think you are over-estimating the quality of the Chinese military. I'll write a post on this in the next several days--but I need to finish some work for my day job first. :)
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