Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Shrinivasan
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

More news on Astra in the Indian Express, this time before the launch...
http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... 388551.ece

they talk about two failed launches...
The scientists are focusing on the successful trials this time as last year two coordinated trials ended in failure. While on May 20 the missile had fallen immediately after it took off from the ground launcher, on May 21 it instead of travelling on its trajectory broke into pieces mid-air and fell into the sea.
He mentions two launches (without the year) which failed, haven't even heard about these tests untill now. Even Taramak's article did not mention these failures...
Guru logs please shed some light on this?
Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

Er the year must be 2011. Sounds like motor fail in first case and either control system or structure fail in second due to high speed.

Nirbhay is sized per 21" torpedo rack. We already knew that. Every sub we operate could carry it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Indranil »

vivek_ahuja wrote:
indranilroy wrote:That can be the case. But most probably, they will test some with the earlier configuration :-)
It simply suggests the iterative process is advancing. That's all.
That's what I meant :wink: .
vivek_ahuja wrote: Image
Any reason for adding that chin?
vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

indranilroy wrote:Any reason for adding that chin?
more uniform flow over the compressor fan face.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Indranil »

hmmm ... I would like to read more about the physics behind this. Any pointers?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Nice find , Looks similar to Tomahawk Block 4 likely with similar capabilities
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Shrinivasan wrote:He mentions two launches (without the year) which failed, haven't even heard about these tests untill now. Even Taramak's article did not mention these failures...
That was in May, 2011. At that time, I remember the tests being described 'successful'.

The Hindu says that today (Saturday), it will be tested with the seeker. Interesting to see how the Russian 'Agat' works on Astra. Today's test will involve a real target, Lakshya, while yesterday was an electronic target.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vic »

Nirbhay seems slightly longer and slightly wider wingspan than Tomhawk. So we can assume it will weight around 1300-1500kg without booster. Range max may be 3000km while effective range around 1500km.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Expect to hear about Brahmos test in Leh soon :twisted:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Aditya_V wrote:From the above link, what he describes is failure, but we have have disclosed our failures in the past, so I doubt we will be covering this up.
“Though the target was set for the missile to cover its full operational range of 350 km, the missile managed to cover only 278 km. It failed to attain the desired height and had a deviation in its trajectory. The vehicle too did not adhere to the preordained flight path,” the source claimed.
Prithvi-II not all that successful

Could be a fuel injector issue leading to lack of full thrust. All three parameters are related.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

Details of the Nirbhay are out.
Link

What caught my eye is the range of Brahmos Block 3 quoted at 550KM and the 600KM Nuclear armed LACM.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by RamaY »

^ above link says
The air-launched and nuclear-armed Nirbhay will have an estimated length of 6 metres, diameter of 0.55 metres, wingspan of 2.7 metres, launch mass of 1,200kg, cruise speed of Mach 0.7, and a 250kg warhead-section
Does it mean the miniaturization of nukes is complete and 250k is the warhead size? How much Mithai will be delivered? Then why are we still using other range calculations for Agni family?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nash »

That means the Glonas system is integrated in Block -3 . And the supersonic LRCM(500-600) and hypersonic brahmos(300) are the new ones and by end of decade we might have these, which will increase IAF surgical and precision strike capability.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

^^^HELLO - that link is to Chorgupta's blog...are we actually relying on the nonsense that he regularly puts out?
SSridhar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Astra bang on target again - The Hindu
The launch of the Astra missile for the second day on Saturday from Chandipur, Odisha, was deadly in its accuracy. An air-to-air missile, it was launched from a fixed launcher on the ground and homed in on its target — Lakshya, a pilotless target aircraft (PTA) flying 15 km away. The warhead exploded within a metre of Lakshya, destroying it. On Friday also, the launch from the ground against an electronic target was successful. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which has developed the missile, conducted both the launches. Friday’s launch was to test propulsion, control and guidance systems.

Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, who watched the launch, described it as “excellent” and said it was “a major breakthrough because the problems encountered in the earlier flights were overcome.”

Asked what snags were overcome, he said: “We had some technical problems relating to the control structure. We made changes in the systems’ configuration and we have overcome the defects.”

“We are now readying the missile as per the user’s [the Indian Air Force’s] requirements”, he said.

In the latest launch, the 3.8-metre long and more than 300 kg heavy Astra flew at Mach-3 {Significant. It was touted all along to be flying at 1.2 to 1.4 mach. Launch weight has also gone up almost twice.} — three times the speed of sound.

Another DRDO missile technologist said the flight “went off well and all the events occurred as per requirements.” Astra would be flight-tested again on Monday.

Three more flights in 2013

There will be three more flights from the ground in 2013. After that, it will be launched from different aircraft such as Sukhoi-30, MiG-29 and the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas.

Astra can hit targets flying 40 km away, that is, beyond visual range. If an enemy aircraft were to fly close, it will be registered in the aircraft that carries the missile. If the enemy was to fly 20 to 40 km away, the cockpit instruments cannot register it. Only radar signals will be received. Astra can adjust its speed to that of the enemy aircraft and home in on it.

2012 a rewarding year

Mr. Chander said 2012 had been a rewarding year for the DRDO in its missile launches. They included the maiden successful launch of Agni-V in April, followed by flight-trials of Agni-I, II, III and IV, Prithvi-I and II, Dhanush, two highly successful interceptor missile launches, the BrahMos flights and the Long Range Surface-to-Air flights. “In missile capability, we are upfront. We have made a tremendous mark,” he asserted.

“We have achieved major successes in launching a variety of missiles in 2012. We are confident thé we will make further strides in missile development in 2013.”
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by krishnan »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl48bwYB ... r_embedded

around 3:30 look how low brahmos is flying when it hits the target
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by anmol »

Why are we using 486 for mission computer ?

Image
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by siddharth »

krishnan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl48bwYB ... r_embedded

around 3:30 look how low brahmos is flying when it hits the target
Does it bounce off the ground before it hits the target?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shiv »

anmol wrote:Why are we using 486 for mission computer ?
Reliable
All bugs (if any, known)
Available freely in large numbers, practically free
Chinmayanand
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Chinmayanand »

In the news posted by SSridhar , it says Astra can hit targets flying 40km away. I thought its range was above 100km.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

SSridhar wrote:An air-to-air missile, it was launched from a fixed launcher on the ground and homed in on its target — Lakshya, a pilotless target aircraft (PTA) flying 15 km away. The warhead exploded within a metre of Lakshya, destroying it.
Speaking of which, ARC is said to have some Lakshya. What role can it take apart from being a PTA?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nash »

rohitvats wrote:^^^HELLO - that link is to Chorgupta's blog...are we actually relying on the nonsense that he regularly puts out?
Not entirely , but there is a report about Brahmos with range of 500Km + after getting Glonass navigation and it is some what is in sync with guptaji's article.Only new thing is that it is for Block-III (Army version).

Also regarding supersonic LRCM (500-600Km), it was i think first reported by Livefist(Shiv), where he Quoted VKS about it.

Rest of things about Nirbhay, the image is already posted here, so as far as data is concern seem accurate, but may not belong to him.
Last edited by nash on 23 Dec 2012 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

RamaY wrote:^ above link says
The air-launched and nuclear-armed Nirbhay will have an estimated length of 6 metres, diameter of 0.55 metres, wingspan of 2.7 metres, launch mass of 1,200kg, cruise speed of Mach 0.7, and a 250kg warhead-section
Does it mean the miniaturization of nukes is complete and 250k is the warhead size? How much Mithai will be delivered? Then why are we still using other range calculations for Agni family?
cruise vs. ballistic differences from an aam point of view. the amount of work done to lift to say 10k miles/km in a ballistic trajectory would need to escape earth for a while.. where as nirbhay and brahmos can skim the sea.

regarding mithais, it was a closed chapter after a non-emphatic confirmation from khakodkar - further we need to trust the establishment that it is sweet enough. now, given the design and plan, that should confirm the weights, it can be kept at below ntpt/proli regime triggers is my thought.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sarabpal.s »

Chinmayanand wrote:In the news posted by SSridhar , it says Astra can hit targets flying 40km away. I thought its range was above 100km.
Total confusion regarding range because of different pattern of head on or tail on chase.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

krishnan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl48bwYB ... r_embedded

around 3:30 look how low brahmos is flying when it hits the target
The best footage is Brahmos hitting the Killer class missile boat K-72 , just one hit and it literally breaks the ship into half and rapidly sinks it you cant get better anti-ship missile than that today :twisted:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nash »

Astra - 300 Km , if true it can be a serious drawback for astra and IAF may ask them to sort out this same old weight problem before induction, in large numbers
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Astra will have two versions. Block I with range up to 40 km and 2nd with up to 100 km.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I think what Jamwal states is block-1 160KG Head 80-100KM , tail chase 20KM, basically a no escape zone of 20Km.

Block II-300 KG, longer range missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Chinmayanand wrote:In the news posted by SSridhar , it says Astra can hit targets flying 40km away. I thought its range was above 100km.
Chinmayanand, what DRDO had claimed before was as follows: The missile could be launched from different altitudes it can cover 110 km when launched from an altitude of 15 km, 44 km when fired from an altitude of eight km and 21 km when the altitude is sea-level.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

I don't remember reading anything about work being done on Block-II right now. It's not been mentioned in any report yet. A longer range missile will require different propellants as well as guidance system. Hard to believe that the researchers are working on 2 projects at once.
AFAIK Block-I will not exceed 40km.Can't remember the source. :-s
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

@Koti, Nash & RamaY - the Prasun Sengupta article is complete nonsense. Dont waste time & bandwidth discussing it.

And adding GLONASS doesnt extend range that is a function of the amount of propellant carried.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

DRDO has already said that Astra Mk. II will use a dual-pulse rocket motor to enhance the range.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

jamwal wrote:I don't remember reading anything about work being done on Block-II right now. It's not been mentioned in any report yet. A longer range missile will require different propellants as well as guidance system. Hard to believe that the researchers are working on 2 projects at once.
AFAIK Block-I will not exceed 40km.Can't remember the source. :-s
Mk 2 version is definitely being worked on IIRC Shukla was the first to report about it and there was a mockup of it in the last Aero India. See here click

More about astra in this lecture delivered at aero India 2011 by Dr. S Gollakota, talks about mk 2 dual pulse motor at 23:18 to be used in 100 KM+ version.

Last edited by Sagar G on 23 Dec 2012 12:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

tsarkar ji, while I agree that the Trishul article could be more fiction than fact, having more precise guidance means that the missile could detect minor overshoot from the most energy-efficient path to the destination. The missile could then compensate for the overshoot with finer manoeuvres which bleed less energy. In other words, precisely following the most energy efficient path means the destination can be further away.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Thanks SagarG

Pratik sahab, the increase in range with some really great guidance system can't be 250-300 km for a max 290 km range missile. This rumour was first posted in a Russian site and picked up by other news sites. From link:
The integration of the navigation systems from Kh-555 will turn BrahMos, a supersonic cruise missile, into a "super-rocket" with almost a sub-strategic capability above its normal tactical range, capable of hitting targets over 180-300 miles (300-500 km), from sea, land and air launchers, and capable of being armed with a nuclear warhead, the source said.
But then expert opinion in same article state that the upgrade will increase accuracy. Nothing about range:
“Conventional Doppler INS has an inherent drift, so the longer the range of the weapon, the larger the relative error," said Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies. "Introducing satellite navigation improves the missile’s positional accuracy. From an investment stand-point it also makes sense to re-use sub-systems that have already been developed.”

Former Royal Navy Weapons Engineering officer Hugh Price agreed. "Satellite navigation means the missile will now be accurate to within a few meters," he said.
Even Wiki page is showing 300-500km range by referring to this shady article :))
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

^^
Pratik,

As Jamwal as explained, GPS is used to correct INS drift. GPS is not very essential for the Anti Shipping role, because the seeker has 40 km range. During war, with merchant shipping avoiding conflict zones, only warships will be at sea. BrahMos flies lo-hi-lo & before the terminal lo, the seeker can pick its targets. So INS drift is not very material.

However, with land attack, more accuracy is required, since the SCAN radar seeker operating in SAR mode has much less range. GLONASS was disfunctional during the previous decade, hence GPS was used. I remember one failed trial was attributed to American spoofing of GPS signal. For land attack, even relatively minor drift is unacceptable. The missile might hit the school deliberately set up next door instead of the adjoining terrorist camp. In 2011, GLONASS was made fully functional by launching newer satellites over last few years. BrahMos has since reverted back to GLONASS.

It has no impact on the range.

What the Russians probably meant was with advanced GLONASS available, even longer ranged missiles with longer flight times can accurately hit targets, since the even the smallest drift would be corrected rapidly.

Problem with Prasun is that he doesnt understand basic stuff of how GPS is used in a missile. He just plagarizes & pastes. Rohit has done good analysis.

I remember BR Member Sri publishing in 2007 that Prahaar was an AAD derivative. Yet Prasun insisted it was an Israeli missile.

During one discussion with me, he said Talwar class will get a secondary radar, that has remained vapourware until now. In reality, Talwar class had a secondary radar from day 1, but Prasun is too idiotic a person to figure that out.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Avarachan »

Sagar G wrote:
jamwal wrote:
HEADS-UP: I get a click-jacking warning when I try to play this YouTube video. Perhaps my system is giving a false warning, but I thought I should mention it anyway. I'm running NoScript with the latest version of Firefox. I can normally play YouTube videos without a problem.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

jamwal wrote:Even Wiki page is showing 300-500km range by referring to this shady article :))
It has been stated multiple times in print that the range is limited by the software, guess the software got an update :twisted:
Avarachan wrote:HEADS-UP: I get a click-jacking warning when I try to play this YouTube video. Perhaps my system is giving a false warning, but I thought I should mention it anyway. I'm running NoScript with the latest version of Firefox. I can normally play YouTube videos without a problem.


:eek: I got no such warning and even downloaded the video yesterday only.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

tsarkar , it was confirmed some time back by Dr Pillai that Brahmos does not use US NAVSTAR GPS but has been using Russian GLONASS/GPS system and according to him link
BrahMos Aerospace Ltd., a Russian-Indian joint venture manufacturing supersonic cruise missiles, is successfully using Russian-built Glonass receivers for aiming and target acquisition, CEO Sivathanu Pillai said ....BrahMos missiles equipped with Glonass receivers acquire and effectively engage targets, Pillai told the Bengaluru Space Expo 2010 exhibition.
He said the receivers performed reliably and consistently.
With the short range that Brahmos has and the speed it travels it would perhaps have little need for GLONASS update except for some rare targets and/or just for correlation with its main INS guidance.
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