Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Yes. They rely on the high beta to ensure its accuracy during the descent.
And their confidence in motor performance for final velocity at Third Stage sep. All this with solid motors!

Amazing performance.
Varoon Shekhar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2178
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

ramana, does the ~6km/s as opposed to ~7km/s figure change anything? i.e ICBM vs IRBM etc.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Close enough. If they flew a different mass it could be higher.


Also one other news report did say 6km/sec.

WOF stated goal for REX is 7 km/sec with one tonne. REX is Agni TDS and so on.

However see the description of the RV in very clear terms as to intended function.

No more flowers, only bombs!

Also PRC never gave such details of their Dong Feng class vehicles.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

So, the next mirv walas (next year perhaps) should ride on additional thrust to
1. gain the additional 1km/sec
2. get the needed vectoring for multiple RVs.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by NRao »

Time to convert the RV into a boost phase AMM.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:KaranM, Will look-up the page number and quote from WOF tonight.

Wings of Fire, Abdul Kalam, page 111.

A paraphrase follows:

In July 1982, Kalam proposed to Adm Dawson,CNS India Navy the common Tactical Core Vehicle(TCV) as quick reaction Surface to Air missile, an anti-radiation missile to be launched from helicopters an fixed wing aircraft, and for the IN as an interceptor for sea skimming missiles. The TCV became the Trishul in the IGMP when it was formally launched.


Much later I read in a book by Norman Palomar that India was working on an ARM with a range of 105 or 135km. Its two decades ago so its fuzzy.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

hatsoff ramana, for you penchant drive towards narrowing down critical focal points. connecting the dots is not easy unless one is ardent keeper of info in cache, and map that to various data source.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

I keep it in my mind as to what and where I read it.
I am looking for my copy of Arunachalam's memoirs where he also writes about Agni TDS.
One quote I recall is "it was embarrassingly accurate". The first RV was dumb metal shell with a yellow dye to mark where it went after splashdown.
Cant find my copy! :(
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sarabpal.s »

One of the participant of very short range air defense Tender of Indian army

Igla_super
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

SaiK:
While Agni-III missiles ejected the re-entry vehicle at a velocity of 4.2 km a second, Agni-V ejected it at a velocity of 6 km a second. “This is a new dispensation in terms of higher velocity. At the end of the day, you have to survive the re-entry and then only you can deliver. The particular heat shield we made for Agni-V is the strength of the ASL,” the ASL Director said.
Its not clear if this was the separation/ejection velocity of the RV at end of booster phase ie last stage burnout. We don't know if this was the re-entry velocity or there was more to it. Still quite a bit.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

So, between A3 and A5, we could assume a thruster based mid course burn- that helped in getting the additional 1.8km per sec velo. Or it could be the third stage that separated half way mid course helped in (partial mid course burn period) achieving those figures.

?
Prabu
BRFite
Posts: 423
Joined: 22 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: In the middle of a Desert

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prabu »

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Altair »

New Delhi: India has developed its own missile defence shield which can be put in place at short notice to protect at least two cities, bringing the country at par with an elite group of few nations. The shield, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has been tested successfully and an incoming ballistic missile with the range of up to 2,000 kms can be destroyed.

"The Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) shield is now mature. We are ready to put phase one in place and it can be put in very short time," DRDO chief V K Saraswat told PTI in an interview.

He said the shield, as part of phase one of the programme, can be put in place in two cities in the country, where the infrastructure is available. However, the two places have not yet been identified and the selection will be made at the political level. The DRDO used variants of Prithvi missiles as simulated targets and successfully intercepted missiles in test-firings.


"We have carried out six successful launches and demonstrated the capability for 2,000 km targets. We have demonstrated it in two layers that is endo-atmospheric (inside the Earth's atmosphere) and exo-atmospheric (outside the Earth's atmosphere)," Mr Saraswat said.

The DRDO chief said the Indian missile defence system is comparable with the US Patriot 3 system, which was successfully used during the 1990 Gulf War against Iraq.

He said all the elements such as long-range radars and tracking devices, real-time datalink and mission control system required for the missile system have been "realised" successfully.

Under the phase two of the project, the premier defence research agency would upgrade the system to handle ballistic missiles with range of 5,000 km. This phase is expected to be ready by 2016.


The system required for phase-II of the project is being developed, he said, adding that for this purpose, ships are being built from where the target missiles would be launched.

Talking about the advancement of the system, he said the missile defence shield has been "automated" to an extent where human intervention would be required only if the mission has to be aborted.

As part of its efforts to protect itself from enemy missiles, India is developing this two-tier BMD which can intercept enemy missiles at altitudes of 80 km and 150 km.

The DRDO is thinking of intercepting the missiles at higher altitudes as it would give it more response time in case the first attempt is a miss and the second layer of the system can be put into action.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ Any news on the user trials of the A-II and A-III which were supposed to follow the A-V launch?
dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by dinesha »

ramana wrote: Total flight time was 20 minutes ~1200 secs

Powered flight was 220 secs
Re-entry was 40-50 secs.
Rest was coasting.

Apogee was 600km. One can figure out the exact range.
Total flight time was 1130 seconds as per VG Sekaran.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sum »

After Agni-IV, the DRDO would carry out the fourth developmental test of 3,000 km range Agni-III missile, while the armed forces would conduct user trials of 2,000 km range Agni-II and 700 km range Agni-I in a sequel. However, the developmental trials of Agni-IV and Agni-III assume significance as the DRDO has planned to induct the latter in the armed forces next year and the former in 2014. DRDO chief V K Saraswat has said that by year-end, the organisation will go for another test of Agni-V missile, followed by the third one next year before inducting it in the armed forces in 2014.
So the A-III isnt inducted yet contrary to earlier reports?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

So why do they want to induct the A3 when the A5 is doing such a good job?

I think its the type of payload that matters. The A3 payload is slightly heavier than the A5 payload.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

A4 & A3 could be a cheaper and easier way to test certain ideas like composite 1st stage or new RV or new class of propellant also before porting it to A5. we all know the A5 was derisked by having most of the kit except conical motor tested earlier.
adityadange
BRFite
Posts: 274
Joined: 04 Aug 2011 11:34

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by adityadange »

Prabu wrote:A comforting news !
India's missile defence shield ready
Can this be part of psy-ops against pakistan given that they are thumping their chest for their recent paint job of shaheen?
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3986
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vera_k »

ramana wrote:So why do they want to induct the A3 when the A5 is doing such a good job?
Seems logical. Going by how long A3 has taken, A5 will only be inducted sometime in 2019. So A3 will be the mainstay till then.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by negi »

A5 has at least another 5 tests remaining including 3 trials in presence of the IA before the missile gets formally inducted.
Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Vipul »

I thought 3 Development flights Plus 2 User trials is the norm before formal induction.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

ramana wrote:
Its not clear if this was the separation/ejection velocity of the RV at end of booster phase ie last stage burnout. We don't know if this was the re-entry velocity or there was more to it. Still quite a bit.
From the TSS article, it looks like the ejection velocity was 6 KM/sec. Does anyone know the RV separation altitude? I remember it being in one of the articles, if I am not imagining it. It must've been more than 100KM (outside the atmosphere). By inference, the re-entry speed must have been greater than 6 KM/s

If we know the 3rd stage separation altitude, we can compute the re-entry speed
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2982
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Missile tech may open up Rs 1,00,000 crore market for India
The missile technology has a scope of creating a Rs 1,00,000-crore market for the Indian private sector, said scientists and top defence officials involved in the Agni V project.

If the missile technology, wherein India has proved its mettle, was backed by an advanced aircraft manufacturing ability, they claimed it could be provide a Rs 2,00,000 crore market to the private sector.

The people, who spoke include DRDO director general scientific advisor to the defence minister V.K. Saraswat, chief controller for R&D (missiles and strategic systems) and Agni progra-mme director Avinash Cha-nder and six other scientists, who were honoured by FICCI on Monday.

Speaking about the Agni project, Mr Chander said that it just took three years for them to take Agni V from the draft board to the launch pad, with an active contribution from more than 150 companies, including 40-50 from Hyderabad.

He said the participation of the private sector in the defence projects could help India to realise its Vision 2030 for achieving self-reliance.

Mr Chander said that no date has been finalised for test firing long range cruise missile Nirbhay.
Hyderabad-based companies, Dr Saraswat claimed, have now graduated from designing and manufacturing sub-systems to systems for missile technology.

Sangita Reddy, the chairperson of Ficci Andhra Pradesh, commended the entrepreneurship spirit in the state and the latest being in the defence related productions.

Amongst others to be honoured were V.G. Sekaran, director, Advanced Systems Laboratory, S.K. Chaudhuri, director of Research Centre IMARAT, A.K. Chakrabarti, director of Defence Research and Development Laboratory, S.P. Dash, director of Interim Test Range, G. Sateesh Reddy, associate director of RCI and R.K. Gupta, project director of Agni-V.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Follow up to my earlier comment: even if we dont know the altitude of RV separation, if we assume that it happened outside the atmosphere, we can calculate the "maximum possible re-entry speed". This would happen if the RV separation happened at the apogee. Dusting off my high school mechanics, if the RV ejection happened at 6 KM/sec, the max re-entry speed works out to be ~6.7 Km/sec.

This is assuming that space is perfect vacuum and energy conservation holds. Otherwise, the max re-entry speed would be lower.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

I believe it will be possible to gain higher speeds for the RV if the separation occurs after the apogee and before the atmosphere can have a drag greater then certain limit on the still attached stage.
RV plus Last stage have higher potential energy available for translation into KE then that with RV alone.
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

It was noted in the article that @ 6 km/s the RV became the fastest traveling object made by India. To me this seems to indicate the maximum speed encountered by the RV in its entire flight.
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

RV + Last stage till apogee would decelerate faster and reach lower apogee impacting the overall range.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

Not necessarily. It depends on the alt at which the third stage burns out. The Atmospheric drag can be both greater or lesser (opposite in direction)then the Inertia of the RV+Final stage.
The claim of 600 KM Apogee made me think this way.
Inertia is a virtue many a time.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Only till K4 rises like Varuna astra!

What is a true ICBM?

A5 already covers the known pre-Columbine world ie Asia, Europe, Africa, and Australia for bonus.

PRC needs mota lota however since Europe is modern and urbanized the small POK II fission weapon will do.

And US is India's best friend by their own proclamations.
So whats the worry. Have curry!
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

its the same whine as "India is a not true democracy until cashmere is given right of way to become a islamo-fascist state or join TSP"

having to move away from coercive diplomacy and the language of sanctions and advisories, the west will increasingly shift to this fallback mode of trying to influence events appear superior - media, EJs, cultural attacks, drain inspector reports .... same as they are forced to do now with Cheena albeit Cheena comes down hard on any foreign journos doing it from their soil - a Al jazeera anchor just got kicked out for unspecified reasons.
neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 853
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by neerajb »

Nothing offensive in it. Sounds more like soothing words from GOI to Pak/China.

Cheers....
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

An M-11 Tested is compared with A-5, the world must be flat indeed
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

the first comment below that article is interesting:
luhai167
This article ignores that India is a space faring nation, the issue of ICBMs has being resolved. The question here is road mobile missile that can be quickly launched and survive a second strike. As for China, the question is devote more money to have fewer DF-31As for global deterrence, or invest to have more DF-25s (or DF-21C?) to have specific deterrence against India. (The same way in the 80s when there is less 10 DF-5s for global deterrence and hundards of DF-2, DF-3 and DF-4 as specific deterrence against the Soviet Union)

--
we also have the question confront us now. how much forces do we devote to each of TSP, China and soon khan ? :oops:

A1 will be far cheaper than A4/A5
the basic A2 on a train is enough for southern china
A4 takes off from A2 and gives more deployment options vs southern china
A3 delivers a heavy payload to same circle as A4 - useful if we want to drop a FBF big bomb on someone
A5 covers all of PRC from all of India
merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by merlin »

Just have

1. A1, A4 (with all composite stages) and A5 (with all composite stages). All three should be rail and road mobile
2. SLBMs that are of A5+ capability (all composite stages and the + is because of larger diameter of 2.4m compared to 2m)
3. Free fall air-deliverable warheads as backup
D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

3. Free fall air-deliverable warheads as backup
I think India will have to start looking at ASMP-A kind of options.

Some sort of supersonic ALCM dedicated to the nuclear role is needed to make our emerging triad well rounded.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

delivering a mach 2 or better (thinking extended brahmos) speed terrain hugging low height cruise missile for 2000km or better mile range with a payload enough to have a 200KT thermo, is more lethal than ballistics for chippanda club. If this is delivered by desh, then it should be best kept secret.

2000miles, terrain hugging, few hundred feets above will scare 'cause even they get hit by ABMs, it would destroy the area of interception with nuclear radiations - 200KT. proximity fuse could AND logic with onboard MAWS kind, with a feedback relay to begin a new mission for the aborted one.
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

^ Will be quite impossible to achieve such speeds at low altitude and even achieve a range of 300 km.
Post Reply