Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 09 Oct 2012 16:39

MTCR was a tool of the west to be used to bully others. It used the MTCR to stop cryogenic engines from being transferred to India. On its own, US transferred nuke armed Trident inter-contiental SLBMs to UK, UK sold Black Shaheen to UAE, China armed Pakistan, and now USA is repeating that with South Korea.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 09 Oct 2012 18:43

MTCR is more enforce to keep in check delivery systems for WMD, the guide lines for conventional systems is grey and thus allowing for certain excemptions besides those transfers to the UK occured in 1982 before the MTCR was setup in 1987.

BlackShaheen is basically the Storm Shadow and its range is around 250 km thus not governed by MTCR and it cannot carry a WMD warhead. Even the SLAM-ER out ranges it with a range of 275km. I think you confuse the Black shaheen with Taurus KEPD which has a range of 500km.

http://www.mtcr.info/english/guidetext.htm

Good thing we didn't get Croyogenic eneignes from the west and thus starting working on them ourselves.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 09 Oct 2012 18:48

Septimus P. wrote:MTCR is more enforce to keep in check delivery systems for WMD, the guide lines for conventional systems is grey and thus allowing for certain excemptions besides those transfers to the UK occured in 1982 before the MTCR was setup in 1987.

The delivery systems for WMD are same as those of conventional systems. WMDs do not have separate delivery mechanisms. An SS 18 can also be used to deliver 8 tons of TNT if required.

Septimus P. wrote:BlackShaheen is basically the Storm Shadow and its range is around 250 km thus not governed by MTCR and it cannot carry a WMD warhead. Even the SLAM-ER out ranges it with a range of 275km. I think you confuse the Black shaheen with Taurus KEPD which has a range of 500km.

http://www.mtcr.info/english/guidetext.htm

The ayatollahs dont lie.
http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archiv ... w-the-mtcr

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Oct 2012 23:31

I thought the Block III upgrade to the Brahmos already gives the sat nav guidance capability. DRDO scientists were even awarded for this key upgrade.
Is this an upgrade to Blk III stds for naval version?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Oct 2012 00:14

nakul wrote:MTCR was a tool of the west to be used to bully others. It used the MTCR to stop cryogenic engines from being transferred to India. On its own, US transferred nuke armed Trident inter-contiental SLBMs to UK, UK sold Black Shaheen to UAE, China armed Pakistan, and now USA is repeating that with South Korea.

That would be France not UK. To equip their new Mirage 2000-9s. In fact the main reason the UAEAF bought the Mirages despite funding the F-16 Block 60 was the US refusal to long range missiles to complement. The UK's sale on the other hand was to Saudi Arabia for its Tornados (and now EFs). In any case, suffice to say as far as the BrahMos is concerned, the MTCR needs to be considered defunct.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Oct 2012 02:22

Black Shaheen is a renamed StormShadow/SCALP EG. Its range is just listed as >250km. It's unlikely to have a range greater than 300km. The americans helping SoKo with their 800km missile is a clear violation of MTCR though. The thing is MTCR regulations have never really applied to deals between US and its munnas. The US sold Trident ICBMs to the UK.

Chinese have cleverly stayed out of MTCR, so their deals with the pakis are not under scrutiny. None of their deals are public anyway so they can always deny everything. Our problem is that the Russians joined the MTCR willingly and have so far avoided violating it. And our deals with them are always above ground. This 500km range comment is the first time we are hearing about it. All Indian sources still cite the range as 290km, a convenient 10km below the MTCR limit. We have to assume it to be accurate though unless there is some official confirmation of a higher range. It could very well be Russian DDM. They have them too.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2012 08:56

Singha wrote:strange they didnt release a pic with the ship + missile in flight as is usual?

The missile also looks very different, this is probably why no video was released of this test.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2012 08:58

sum wrote:
Russian-Indian missile is capable of a speed exceeding the speed of sound at 2.5-2.8 times and hit targets at ranges of up to 500 kilometers.
Hmmmm...finally a more true range figure being quoted

take it with a large pinch of salt. The true range will never be know until the flat lady sings

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Oct 2012 11:00

ramana wrote:I thought the Block III upgrade to the Brahmos already gives the sat nav guidance capability.

ramana, did you mean to say Block II ?

BrahMos Block-I version targetted visible radio-contrast targets, Block-II is an Army version meant for attacking targets on land (LACM). Block II was set up to strike at less visible targets and features both target-seeking equipment and satellite navigation.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2012 18:05

Singha wrote:seems like some improved dual-INS system + GPS/GLONASS that co-operate to reduce errors.

could be a precursor to the brahmos2 guidance package.

Very good possibility, also this missile could be testing the guidance package for Nirbhay...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2012 18:10

SSridhar wrote:
ramana wrote:I thought the Block III upgrade to the Brahmos already gives the sat nav guidance capability.
ramana, did you mean to say Block II ?

BrahMos Block-I version targetted visible radio-contrast targets, Block-II is an Army version meant for attacking targets on land (LACM). Block II was set up to strike at less visible targets and features both target-seeking equipment and satellite navigation.

Block III was for our Cheeni bretheren, featuring a steep dive mode capable of attacking reverse slopes. Range of these missiles was rumoured to be way over 290km, reason being, in a mountain, the missile needs to fly over a longer distance to cover a horizontal displacement of 290km. (a steep parabola with a horizontal of 290km)

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 10 Oct 2012 18:15

Brahmos 2 is expected to have a similar range. I expect the new carrier killer subs of the Russian Navy would carry this along with the ships.

Two questions in my mind:
Why is India developing a 600 km LACM if Brahmos can hit 500 km? Perhaps 600 km is just a placeholder.
Second, what is the actual range of Nirbhay?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 10 Oct 2012 18:56

What 600 km LACM? Nirbhay is reported to have 1000 km range.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 10 Oct 2012 18:59

Its based on old report from Livefist
http://www.livefist.blogspot.in/2010/09 ... ruise.html

It seemed like an indigenous Brahmos with greater range. If 290 km can become 500 km, 600 km can become?

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 10 Oct 2012 19:05

nakul wrote:Brahmos 2 is expected to have a similar range. I expect the new carrier killer subs of the Russian Navy would carry this along with the ships.

Two questions in my mind:
Why is India developing a 600 km LACM if Brahmos can hit 500 km? Perhaps 600 km is just a placeholder.
Second, what is the actual range of Nirbhay?

Brahmos -) supersoinic-)Range 40km to 290(500km Unconfirmed)
Nirbhay -) Subsonic -) ?? to 1000km

In my view Nirbhay should be less costly than Brahmos but conflicting news coming that it carry same cost as Brahmos more or less

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2012 19:09

I did mean the Block III which had combined INS and GPS augmentation.

I really think above test was the naval version upgraded to Block III standard.

John · Post by **John** » 10 Oct 2012 19:53

500+ Km range was original Hi-hi-lo range quoted for Onyx but the original ramjet engine envisioned was never developed IIRC the current engine used for Yakhont/Onyx (and Brahmos) is modified variant of ramjet engine from moskit. So there could some confusion regarding that.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2012 21:30

John wrote:500+ Km range was original Hi-hi-lo range quoted for Onyx but the original ramjet engine envisioned was never developed IIRC the current engine used for Yakhont/Onyx (and Brahmos) is modified variant of ramjet engine from moskit. So there could some confusion regarding that.

but this confusion can cause some serious Shalwar browning... combined with the impending Nirbhay test... expect a spate of tests from the pig sty... they have to shoot away both painted as well as unpainted maal to keep up with the SDREs.

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Oct 2012 22:20

Is it possible to have a pure ballistic trajectory for a missile like Brahmos? What could be the terminal velocity in this case?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2012 22:26

its airframe structure would not survive the heat and shock of re-entry velocity like a proper detachable RV does.

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Oct 2012 23:12

What if there is no re-entry?
I mean missiles like Tomahawk and Nirbhay have low velocity engines that are better at terrain hugging where as Brahmos IMO can coast at a good horizontal velocity thats around few Machs like a BM. and finally gain velocity and maneuvering ability from the drop of height and reserved fuel reaching Mach 3?
Or is this how the Max range is actually achieved for hi-hi-hi??

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Oct 2012 23:18

Koti sahab,

You are making contradictory questions.

You first question was wrote:Is it possible to have a pure ballistic trajectory for a missile like Brahmos? What could be the terminal velocity in this case?

Your second question is wrote:What if there is no re-entry?

If you have a 290 km (or 500 km) range, you would have to leave the atmosphere in a pure ballistic mode.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Oct 2012 23:28

Perhaps Brahmos (modified for terminal phase only

) can be shelled into A5 shroud as an RV!!.. but then, why do we need brahmos? we can create our own brahmaputra.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 10 Oct 2012 23:30

The Russians have done something like that with the Topol. I remember reading that their RV are scramjet powered!

koti · Post by **koti** » 11 Oct 2012 00:53

indranilroy wrote:If you have a 290 km (or 500 km) range, you would have to leave the atmosphere in a pure ballistic mode.

I will withdraw the "pure" from that Indranil saab.
What about the range increasing coast and the terminal Mach's achievable from the fall from a non-re entry altitude? Will that help Brahmos like missiles achieve higher range or is that how they actually reach their max ranges?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Oct 2012 01:51

Please drop the saab.

I have no idea about the trajectory of Brahmos, so I will not comment on it. From what I gather, the idea is to have a missile which is difficult to detect, provides very little reaction time and and is difficult to intercept. Hence it is a cruise missile and a highly maneuvering one. The idea is a very high probability of a 'kill'. If the flight profile is made into what you are suggesting, it will beat that purpose.

I don't think range is the biggest criteria here. India has ample ballistic missiles to take care of range.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Oct 2012 04:36

koti wrote:Is it possible to have a pure ballistic trajectory for a missile like Brahmos? What could be the terminal velocity in this case?

Will be the max speed of the engine it is not ballistic missile and ramjet is very ineff beyond 20km which alone will limits ballistic speed...

nakul wrote:The Russians have done something like that with the Topol. I remember reading that their RV are scramjet powered!

For ram/scramjet are air breathing engines how exactly will they work in RV role....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Oct 2012 05:50

See, the reentries have greater than mach 20s. A5 is mach 24. Now where is brahmos in the picture?

Why waste your thoughts on mach 3-4, and even it gets the hypersonic version, that is maxed out at m7, there is no real use to put on a ballistic path.

Ballistics have the G-force! use it to the maximum, with little thruster is enough for MIRVs. There is no ABM to kill a thrust vectoring ballistic at mach24. Even if it get reduced by 1/3rd the speed, it can still do the petal shower.

brahmos should focus on cruise alone!

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 11 Oct 2012 12:04

John wrote:
nakul wrote:The Russians have done something like that with the Topol. I remember reading that their RV are scramjet powered!
For ram/scramjet are air breathing engines how exactly will they work in RV role....

The RV will ignite the engine when it enters the atmosphere. Like Shaurya but with a ballistic profile initially. After re entry, the scramjet fire.

Here's a pic

Re entry can occur at a distance from the target and the missile follows a quasiballistic profile till it hits.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Oct 2012 12:30

From AI-11, what I heard was that Brahmos range is limited by the fuel it carries.

nits · Post by **nits** » 11 Oct 2012 16:57

US offers 245 Stinger missiles to India

The US is offering 245 Stinger missiles to India as part of a weapons package for the Apache attack choppers being acquired by the Air Force

"245 air-to-air Stinger missiles and 56 launchers are included in the weapons package for the Apache helicopters," officials of Raytheon, which manufactures the missiles, said.

"The Stinger compliments the advanced performance of the Apache by providing the IAF with the critical air-to-air defence capability," they said.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 11 Oct 2012 16:58

I was going through DRDO awards press release. Following caught my eye
"The Special Award for Strategic Contribution 2011 is conferred on Shri PN Tengli Sc ‘G’, DRDO and his
team for developing the state-of-the-art solid rocket motor processing facilities. In a span of nine years,
the team have successfully processed more than 50 solid rocket motors for different versions of AGNI
systems which have given excellent performance during static/flight tests".

Does that mean we have only produced 50 Agni missiles (A1,A2,A3.. ) over nine year span?

John · Post by **John** » 11 Oct 2012 19:15

nakul wrote:The RV will ignite the engine when it enters the atmosphere. Like Shaurya but with a ballistic profile initially. After re entry, the scramjet fire.

If somehow if such a system is developed missile has to decelerate rapidly, the scramjet cannot operate at the reentry speed so essentially slowing down to Mach 4-5 which missile defense system can shoot down (as mentioned above there are few ABM that can intercept RV). Why not just add another solid propellant rocket?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 11 Oct 2012 19:50

John wrote:
nakul wrote:The RV will ignite the engine when it enters the atmosphere. Like Shaurya but with a ballistic profile initially. After re entry, the scramjet fire.
If somehow if such a system is developed missile has to decelerate rapidly, the scramjet cannot operate at the reentry speed so essentially slowing down to Mach 4-5 which missile defense system can shoot down (as mentioned above there are few ABM that can intercept RV). Why not just add another solid propellant rocket?

The scramjet will be much lighter as it will use atmospheric oxygen thereby allowing it to cruise for a greater distance compared to its solid counterpart. That additional distance could be covered at low altitudes making detection more difficult. This will also reduce the need for decoys allowing more warheads per missile. A properly executed flight profile could totally eliminate exo atmospheric interceptors giving only the endo atmospheric ones a chance to intercept. More info at http://warfare.ru/db/catid/242/linkid/2559/

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 11 Oct 2012 21:32

ramana wrote:I did mean the Block III which had combined INS and GPS augmentation.

I really think above test was the naval version upgraded to Block III standard.

Ramana: this could be the new G3OM made by Accord Software, which has the dual GPS + GLONASS kit in a tiny device. There was a recent Ajai Shukla article about this:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/09/ ... h-for.html

The BLOCK III didnt have GLONASS IIRC - it had only GPS. This one could be BLOCK III++

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Oct 2012 01:12

^^^ What I like the most about the SDRE missile development program is the continuous improvements done to various missiles. Offshoot missiles like Prahaar are just the icing in the cake. Waiting for ASTRA and Nag to get operationaized. Even the Trishul TD would take a new avatar as MRSAM/LRSAM/Maitri... hatsoff to the visionaries who gave birth to IGMDP...

member_23677 · Post by **member_23677** » 12 Oct 2012 03:21

KBDagha wrote:I was going through DRDO awards press release. Following caught my eye
"The Special Award for Strategic Contribution 2011 is conferred on Shri PN Tengli Sc ‘G’, DRDO and his
team for developing the state-of-the-art solid rocket motor processing facilities. In a span of nine years,
the team have successfully processed more than 50 solid rocket motors for different versions of AGNI
systems which have given excellent performance during static/flight tests".

Does that mean we have only produced 50 Agni missiles (A1,A2,A3.. ) over nine year span?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Oct 2012 04:00

KBDagha wrote:"The Special Award for Strategic Contribution 2011 is conferred on Shri PN Tengli Sc ‘G’, DRDO and his
team for developing the state-of-the-art solid rocket motor processing facilities. In a span of nine years,
the team have successfully processed more than 50 solid rocket motors for different versions of AGNI
systems which have given excellent performance during static/flight tests".

A DRDO scientist would not be involved / responsible for the manufacture of Agni Series of missiles, this is handled by BDL and a host of ancilliary industries with BDL performing the role of system integrator. The citation probably means, the development/design of 50 different types of rocket motors. Remember, SDREs tried different motors for our missiles. also in multi stage missiles more than one motor is used. We would have discarded many motor design before finalising on a set of motors for our missiles. my 2 cents.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Oct 2012 04:02

nits wrote:US offers 245 Stinger missiles to India

The title should read "US sells 245 Stinger missiles" or "India buys 245 Stinger missiles".
Indian Express has done a TOILet by hinting "US offers.." as if they are giving this for free ala Paakeeland.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Oct 2012 10:19

Speaking of Astra.

Why has it dropped off the radar?