Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Dec 2012 10:59

http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... 390559.ece - for Saturday test but datelined December 22, 2012
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... ?css=print - Also for saturday test but datelined December 23, 2012

1) The test was on a PTA 15 km range 4 km altitude and proximate at most 1 mtr from target.

2) The target is clearly allowed 6G at least and the missile does 22G at least. This bit comes from a later report.

If both these can be combined in one instance then there is not much to conclude, at variance, with what is claimed by DRDO.

Good surprise gift to the nation. Thanks DRDO.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Dec 2012 11:20

Shourya being a very costly project and with a substantial 1t payload out to 600km , the idea derivative would be something like this.

it takes off and flies hypersonically at 40km. at that height and mach6 speed no SAM can touch it and it will quickly overhaul say large a/c like tankers, Awacs, transports which can only fly 850kmph max - mach0.85

in the end game it descends slightly and releases upto 6 astra sized AAMs and these fly in a grid pattern to maximise chances of atleast 1 or 2 picking up target on active radar and engaging. this also presents a much smaller target for defensive measures.

in short the SM6 also works in this way - it release a highly manouverable amraam based 2nd stage for endgame which can engage even fighters unlike say the bulkier 2nd stage of most long range missiles . shourya would ofcourse fly higher and faster than SM6 because to fly up from the foothills , cross the himalayas and engage targets over tibet it has to, there is no other option. presence of such a LRAAM will naturally make the chinese very wary indeed of committing their large assets and push back their coverage zones.

likewise shourya can either directly attack ground based radars or release ARM/IIR kill vehicles to do the job, diving at Mach4 and stealthy airframes. this zenith attack would supplement the brahmos2 in low profile.

I have no doubt khan and cheen are working on such designs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Dec 2012 12:11

Singha the One tonne payload is the big one. So all refs to one tonne mean that.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 25 Dec 2012 12:19

I know this is a noob question, but is Brahmos a cold or hot launch missile ?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 25 Dec 2012 12:24

cold launch from canister.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Dec 2012 13:21

SSridhar wrote:In 2009 itself, Astra's captive flight trials had been conducted on a Su-30MKI. It should have been then a 300Kg Astra. Now that the weight reduction has been achieved to the earlier specs, captive flight tests of the new missile may be needed before electrically & electronically connecting Astra to the a/c.

The article doesn't quote any one saying that the older version weighed 300kg. I still think it is DDMism. Even when the testing first began few years ago its weight was said to be around 150-160Kg. The test pictures also corroborate this(unless, as it has been suggested by some one here earlier it was made of tungsten or something. Which is of course complete non-sense). There is no way the same missile lost almost half its weight in just a couple of years.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 25 Dec 2012 13:46

Singha wrote:
in the end game it descends slightly and releases upto 6 astra sized AAMs and these fly in a grid pattern to maximise chances of atleast 1 or 2 picking up target on active radar and engaging. this also presents a much smaller target for defensive measures.

in short the SM6 also works in this way - it release a highly manouverable amraam based 2nd stage for endgame which can engage even fighters unlike say the bulkier 2nd stage of most long range missiles . shourya would ofcourse fly higher and faster than SM6 because to fly up from the foothills , cross the himalayas and engage targets over tibet it has to, there is no other option. presence of such a LRAAM will naturally make the chinese very wary indeed of committing their large assets and push back their coverage zones.

likewise shourya can either directly attack ground based radars or release ARM/IIR kill vehicles to do the job, diving at Mach4 and stealthy airframes. this zenith attack would supplement the brahmos2 in low profile.

I have no doubt khan and cheen are working on such designs.

That is too much to ask for it. weapon separation at mach6

.
shourya would be good countermeasure when employe with single warhead against AWACS or Air superiority ship by descending from top of ship

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Dec 2012 15:14

Anyways think of this as Multiple MARV. And people are working at something like this for 3 mach cruise missiles. No reason why Shaurya cannot be slowed down to 3 machs or less before such separation of Multiple MARVs. The re-entry speed itself can be reduced so do not have to encounter drastic slow downs in the atmosphere.

Its just that the idea is not going to go away. Exceedingly tempting. And somebody will find the will to invest in it. Would that somebody be an Indian or would we end up buying it in closed market is the only real question.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 25 Dec 2012 16:01

Is the warhead section of Shaurya big enough to carry that many warheads ? It's just 0.75 m thick. A better alternative will be that hypersonic re-entry vehicle which is probably under development. Only problem is that both are vapourware at least till now.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Dec 2012 16:14

On second thought why even have to worry about separation at post re entry phase. Separation can be outside the atmosphere and yes re-entry can be any which way you need.

The fuel requirement would be minimal so you can have that many kinetic kill weapons.

Big if is how do you guide such a thing so far away and expect it to hit a non ballastic maneuvering target piloted by an intelligent human.

Will · Post by **Will** » 25 Dec 2012 18:41

What needs to be developed is a supersonic Target Vehicle. Only then will it be possible to test missiles like the Astra to their full potential.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 25 Dec 2012 20:47

Will wrote:What needs to be developed is a supersonic Target Vehicle. Only then will it be possible to test missiles like the Astra to their full potential.

I guess we can use this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Ulka

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Dec 2012 21:49

Nitesh wrote:
Will wrote:What needs to be developed is a supersonic Target Vehicle. Only then will it be possible to test missiles like the Astra to their full potential.
I guess we can use this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Ulka

It has been succeeded by Lakshya PTA

Please read your links before posting.

John · Post by **John** » 25 Dec 2012 22:57

sarabpal.s wrote:shourya would be good countermeasure when employe with single warhead against AWACS or Air superiority ship by descending from top of ship

For it to perform an Anti AWACS or ASuW role it would need to have seeker which would reduce its payload, considering currently even detecting and tracking a target at the range is impractical and presents a set of problems (what would if tanker or an airliner happen to pass few KMs away). Also a missile in a semi parabolic intercept flight path is much easier to intercept than something like Brahmos. Considering Shaurya weights nearly twice as much as Brahmos one can imagine how much it would cost.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Dec 2012 23:49

I guess having the RV enter the atmosphere with the blunt side first should be able to slow the RV down but the problem is the seeker which invariably is going to be short ranged and with a narrow field of vision. What if the target has moved on. What kind of search and track can be performed from say the near earth orbit radar or what kind of network can be expected over the chicom controlled areas if one envisages using ground based sensors and AWACS for providing course corrections. The AWACS can be expected to look for fighter sized targets non-stealthy at say 400-450 km and that too from say 50 km inside Indian airspace.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Dec 2012 01:21

Will wrote:What needs to be developed is a supersonic Target Vehicle. Only then will it be possible to test missiles like the Astra to their full potential.

That is certainly a test point (and most probably will be tested using an electronic target). But it certainly is not a test of the "full potential"of the missile. Almost all fighter planes are the most agile at that 0.7-0.9 M range. And that is where an A2A missile will have to prove its mettle.

I also think that is why they are getting a "modified" towed target for the Lakshya PTA which is powered. Lakshya PTA's flight envelop is curtailed with the current towed target which is not powered. With the modified towed target, they should be able to create more agile "live" targets and engagements at higher altitudes.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Dec 2012 06:06

vic wrote:300km SAM can be (i) modified AAD 1250 kg (ii) modified PDA (?Kg) (iii) Booster + LRSM/MRSAM (500-1000kg)[could be Indian + Foreign combo?]

300km AAM can be (i) LRSM/MRSAM modified to be air launched (276kg)[LRSAM with desi input]

400km air to surface missile can be (i) Brahmos 2500kg (ii) Supersonic LRCM 1000-1500 kg (iii) Nirbhay1000-1500kg (iii) modified AAD 1200kg[AAD probable]

Nano PGM can be (i) Modification or development of man portable NAG missile 10-20kg[wide variety of appln]

No mention of ARM which DRDO was supposed to be developing? Can be a modified LRSAM/MRSAM 300kg with range of 100km or even modified AAD or LRCM

It must be realized that whatever maybe the vehicle choices, there are big plans and they already started stepping-up the game.

Singha wrote:Shourya being a very costly project and with a substantial 1t payload out to 600km , the idea derivative would be something like this.

it takes off and flies hypersonically at 40km. at that height and mach6 speed no SAM can touch it and it will quickly overhaul say large a/c like tankers, Awacs, transports which can only fly 850kmph max - mach0.85

in the end game it descends slightly and releases upto 6 astra sized AAMs and these fly in a grid pattern to maximise chances of atleast 1 or 2 picking up target on active radar and engaging. this also presents a much smaller target for defensive measures.

in short the SM6 also works in this way - it release a highly manouverable amraam based 2nd stage for endgame which can engage even fighters unlike say the bulkier 2nd stage of most long range missiles . shourya would ofcourse fly higher and faster than SM6 because to fly up from the foothills , cross the himalayas and engage targets over tibet it has to, there is no other option. presence of such a LRAAM will naturally make the chinese very wary indeed of committing their large assets and push back their coverage zones.

likewise shourya can either directly attack ground based radars or release ARM/IIR kill vehicles to do the job, diving at Mach4 and stealthy airframes. this zenith attack would supplement the brahmos2 in low profile.

I have no doubt khan and cheen are working on such designs.

Not just designs, DRDO started testing the concept and trials are planned.

A mother missile acts as a “force multiplier” and to achieve the desired result, each miniaturised missile will have a seeker to ensure its independent motion, irrespective of the mother missile's motion. In a bid to conduct trials without using the mother missile, a Remotely Piloted Vehicle (RPV) has been imported to be used as a Technology Demonstrator for the project. A flight trial was conducted at the Integrated Test Range using the RPV along with a recoverable tow body by providing the vehicle the same velocity of a mother missile.Good results were obtained from that exercise, RCI Director S.K. Chaudhuri told The Hindu on Sunday. More such trials would be carried out in stages to check the guidance, control and inertial navigation systems.

By the end of 2013, a crucial trial of the RPV with missile-launched PGMs to hit a target with both IIR (Imaging infrared) and mmW (millimteric Wave) seekers was being planned. Later, a flight test with a mother missile would be conducted, he said.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 910934.ece

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Dec 2012 07:06

Near 45 to 50% reduction in weight is simply awesome! this is a big news for lean mean aams. way to go, and hoping rambha will fire one soon.

nash · Post by **nash** » 26 Dec 2012 08:18

what could be the mother missile? will it be nirbhay or shourya?

I would say shourya for antiship, including AC, and nirbhay for land target - moving armored brigade, cargo, military base,etc.

Also , a PDV(200-300Km) carrying several AAM can neutralize number of aircraft deep in enemy airspace.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 26 Dec 2012 08:31

Any Update/Newsbyte of the testing of Canisterised Agni V that was supposed to take place in Dec?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Dec 2012 17:09

Nice capability added to Tomahawk Block 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wluabEE1ls8

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Dec 2012 19:38

Some 4 or was it 5 Aero-India shows ago,Shiv and I were at the DRDO pavilion,looking at models of the various wares under development,mainly missiles.An enthusiastic scientist told us,after learning of our interest and BR background,that when Astra came along it would be a real game-changer.A possible range of 100km after incremental development was hinted at,which if true,will truly be a game-changer for the IAF,especially if the aircraft can be carried by aircraft as small as the LCA,which will however require a far better radar to avail of such a BVR missile's range! With the benefit of several AWACS and mini-AWACS in the form of the AEW Embraers to come, the horizon opens out for a wider variety of aircraft which will be able to launch Astra. Astra's successful tests come in very timely,especially as the missile could also find a home with our Rafales to come apart from being also carried by our Flankers..

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Dec 2012 20:01

In our missile arsenal, I feel that we are missing following missiles:-

1. Unguided run of the mill RPGs for infantry

2. Air to Air (IR guided) WVR missile

3. Variants of Air to ground 300-600kg missile for complimenting/replacing K-25 & 29 series. I think that variants of LRSAM can be very good candidate for a family of such missiles.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 27 Dec 2012 06:26

K-15 ALL SET TO JOIN ARIHANT -11TH SUCCESSFULL TEST FIRE ON WEDNESDAY
T. S. SUBRAMANIAN/Y. MALLIKARJUN
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techno ... 242325.ece

The underwater missile successfully tested off Visakhapatnam coast

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) ends 2012 on an upbeat note, successfully launching the underwater missile K-15 off the Visakhapatnam coast on Wednesday. The missile darted 20 km into the air, after a gas generator ejected it from the pontoon that lay submerged a few scores of metres in the Bay of Bengal, and sped 650 km before splashing into the sea in its 11th flight trial.

After one more flight, the two-stage missile will be integrated with Arihant, India’s nuclear-powered submarine, and test-fired from the ship. “It is a fantastic system. It is a very powerful and accurate system,” said A.K. Chakrabarti, Programme Director, K-15, and Director of the Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), which designed and developed the missile.

“India is the fifth country to have an underwater launch system. The other countries are the U.S., Russia, France and China,” he said.

Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, termed it “a good flight” and said the test “formed part of the pre-production clearance.” Twelve K-15 missiles, each 10 metres long and weighing six tonnes and capable of carrying nuclear warheads, will form part of the deadly arsenal of Arihant, which is powered by an 80-MWt reactor that uses enriched uranium as fuel and light water as coolant and moderator.

Informed sources said the reactor had already been integrated with the Arihant at Visakhapatnam. “The commissioning process is on,” they said. The reactor would reach criticality within the first few months of 2013. The harbour trials of the ship have been completed, and it is ready for sea trials.

India has been developing the K-4 missile, to be launched from submarines. It will be more powerful than K-15, with a range of 3,000 km.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Dec 2012 07:07

India made progress steadily in Energy management of Solid propulsion. This ascendancy started in Ballistic program was much critical to the success of the BMD program and its application can be noticed in Agni-I, Agni-V, Agni-IV and Shourya. We are going to see this in all other areas including Air to Air Long Range missile. We Ahhhed and Ohhhed as it was mentioned 50% increase in range for AIM-120D from AIM-120C7. I believe it is acutely possible in our DRDO AAM program too.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Dec 2012 07:23

vic wrote:In our missile arsenal, I feel that we are missing following missiles:-

1. Unguided run of the mill RPGs for infantry

2. Air to Air (IR guided) WVR missile

3. Variants of Air to ground 300-600kg missile for complimenting/replacing K-25 & 29 series. I think that variants of LRSAM can be very good candidate for a family of such missiles.

LRSAM from the beginning is designed with the principle of AAM. Israelis have rich experience in AAM & converting AAM as SAM. So it wont be a good candidate for such family.

I think(wild guess) Nano missile (mentioned) in one of the appln could be part of F-INSAS program.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2012 07:48

Minor typo in hindu article. Missile darted 20km in the air should be 20m.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Dec 2012 08:08

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) ends 2012 on an upbeat note, successfully launching the underwater missile K-15 off the Visakhapatnam coast on Wednesday. The missile darted 20 km into the air, after a gas generator ejected it from the pontoon that lay submerged a few scores of metres in the Bay of Bengal, and sped 650 km before splashing into the sea in its 11th flight trial.

Damn, if only a video of this could be leaked on net?
This jingo might just collapse out of orgasmic delight!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2012 08:28

patience birader. I have a feeling the arihant launch video if successful, will be made available...to send a message out loud and clear.

ofcourse the sustained 45 second big-O will be the K4 launch from arihant, perhaps in 2-3 yrs time.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Dec 2012 08:55

Our Chinese friends should be able to provide a grainy picture/video.

John · Post by **John** » 27 Dec 2012 09:37

Singha wrote:Minor typo in hindu article. Missile darted 20km in the air should be 20m.

That is correct its flight altitude is around 20 Km unless you are referring to the altitude at which booster fires' which should be less than 20 meters?

“India is the fifth country to have an underwater launch system. The other countries are the U.S., Russia, France and China,” he said.

This is not going to sit well with Royal Navy Buffs

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2012 09:45

a 650km flight at a height of only 20km(65000ft)? I dont think so..it aint shourya=40km/2 here. even a fighter plane could swat it down.
its apogee will be a lot higher around 100km maybe.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Dec 2012 09:56

K-15 reaches a height of 20 Km and then follows a parabolic path of ~750 Kms.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2012 10:05

er source?

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 27 Dec 2012 10:23

This underwater K-15 test is significant. I'm so used to Indian govt. organizations missing deadlines I was skeptical of the 2014 goal of an underwater nuclear deterrent. But it looks like India will pull it off after all. Wow!

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 27 Dec 2012 10:28

Guys, Arun Vishwakarma's article on the Shourya/Sagarika missile would answer a lot of questions. It's excellent. http://www.indiaresearch.org/Shourya_Missile.pdf

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Dec 2012 11:07

Avinash Chander on Shourya

Mr. Avinash Chander said it was “an entirely atmospheric flight” at a height of 40 km.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Dec 2012 11:29

Avarachan wrote:This underwater K-15 test is significant. I'm so used to Indian govt. organizations missing deadlines I was skeptical of the 2014 goal of an underwater nuclear deterrent. But it looks like India will pull it off after all. Wow!

Avarachan, per all reports, K-15 has already been under production. These tests may be to fine tune some aspects of K-15 or act as cover for K-4. Sometime back, it was reported that an underwater test of K-4 would be conducted by end-2012 or early-2013.

IMO, the underwater deterrent largely depends on the success of Arihant per se, rather than K-15 because the missile has been successfully tested many times over.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2012 11:48

so its 40km (120,000ft) not 20km (60,000ft). a Mach7.5 object at 40km is vastly more difficult to target than one at 20km..almost any big SAM of S300+ size can manage 20km.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 27 Dec 2012 12:10

From the above article ^^

the test “formed part of the pre-production clearance.”