Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Badar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Badar »

negi wrote:Well from my vantage point if my understanding of our nuclear doctrine and policy making in general is correct , I am sure that we haven't yet mated warheads with any of our missiles or delivery platforms hence the canisterzation is not an issue here. Like all other policy making bodies even the one that drafts the nuclear doctrine is plagued by the gandhian baggage and hence talks about NFU which actually makes no sense specially in context of deterrence.

What GD is asking for will be labelled as a 'maximalist' stance by the folks who today draft the nuclear doctrine and turned down.
Will the Sagarika be mated with physics packages onboard the Arihant? If they are why not the Agni? What is the difference?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by negi »

Austin wrote: Just because you mate the warhead does not mean you can use the warhead , to activate those warhead and even to launch the missile you need many layers of authorisation code from highest authority , an unauthorised launch will blow up the missile after leaving the silo or does not leave at all , atleast that is the case with US and Russian ICBM/SLBM.
:lol: And what do you think I meant by non existent nuclear chain of command ? You see we have not yet reached that far in this game. In the highest policy making circles the chai-pakora sessions are still in progress and stuff being signed in triplicate. Vice Adm Puri had made a nice comment as to how most of the stuff which passes off as integrated defense plan is essentially three sets of papers , one each from the three services stapled together at the 11th hour. :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prasad »

negi wrote:GD but a missile canisterised or not, can only be on the move in field if it has been mated with the warhead (unless we are talking about mating warheads in the field), it is the mating of warheads with missiles which is a wet lungi moment for GoI and now that warheads are separate what is the use of canisterizing a IRBM ? I know like all other things one day there will be canisterized agnis plying on the roads but it will be not before we become a 5 trillion $ economy. :)
When the fish starts swimming, all this mating when necessary will be long gone. Mated and ready to eat will be the name of the game. When we're ready to do that, why should land=based missiles be any different. So I think we're moving away from non-mated vehicles
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

negi wrote: :lol: And what do you think I meant by non existent nuclear chain of command ? You see we have not yet reached that far in this game. In the highest policy making circles the chai-pakora sessions are still in progress and stuff being signed in triplicate. Vice Adm Puri had made a nice comment as to how most of the stuff which passes off as integrated defense plan is essentially three sets of papers , one each from the three services stapled together at the 11th hour. :rotfl:
Yes thats possible , there could also be some hesitation in the idea of mating the warhead with missile even though fail safe system could be available , I mean they would be more happy with the idea that the warhead is not mated with missile and kept with DRDO and BARC.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

koti wrote:
Agni-I missile has a specialised navigation system which ensures it reaches the target with a high degree of accuracy, he said.
http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/NAT-SC ... 06843.html

I think the A2 Prime's guidance system is incorporated and validated again in this missile too.
It seems my suspicion that it is not just a User trail but also with the new Nav systems integrated into the missile is true.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=AIR

The link does not have details though...only the title.

Does anyone have a more detailed source?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

good heavens...after GJ, an even older relict "Badar" sir reappears here...many would not aware of Badar and Salman sir had they not been active here in late 90s.

imo our nuclear virginity can only be postponed until the first deterrent patrol of the Arihant .... after that moment of truth on the honeymoon arrives...and the mizzile will demand its pound of flesh.

I am still not sure if our political leadership will authorize such patrols or keep these billion $$ assets dockside as 'force in being' INS Tirpitz kind of apologetic threats and write letters to beijing and DC assuring them we mean no harm with the parked assets. :evil: :evil: :evil:

hopefully our nuclear chain coming down from PMO does not depend on a dual-SIM airtel+vodafone samsung galaxy phone to call the SAC duty officer :oops:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sum »

Singha wrote:
hopefully our nuclear chain coming down from PMO does not depend on a dual-SIM airtel+vodafone samsung galaxy phone to call the SAC duty officer :oops:
:rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

that would be a GOI guru's idea of 'redundant dual channel comms using resilient 3G wireless infra from multiple providers'
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

^^And a Chinese Handset.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by negi »

Badar wrote: Will the Sagarika be mated with physics packages onboard the Arihant? If they are why not the Agni? What is the difference?
To be honest I do not know the answer; all I know is for our triad to be operational there has to be a nuclear chain of command in place which imo does not exist today. There is a nice BRM paper by Dinesh Mannan on a related topic.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... inesh.html

We still do not have a CDS as there are internal turf battles going on in such a scenario like any other policy of ours the chain of command too is blurred and unclear hence I have no reason to believe that our warheads have been mated with any of our delivery platforms.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Badar »

Singha wrote:good heavens...after GJ, an even older relict "Badar" sir reappears here...many would not aware of Badar and Salman sir had they not been active here in late 90s.
Thank you guruji, for not adding "de-" in front of relict :)
Singha wrote: I am still not sure if our political leadership will authorize such patrols or keep these billion $$ assets dockside as 'force in being' INS Tirpitz kind of apologetic threats and write letters to Beijing and DC assuring them we mean no harm with the parked assets.
Realistically speaking, there is more than even chance that our Tirpitz will spend a fair part of its operational life lurking in the coastal shallows with tug in attendance or in the dry dock. This is our first submarine, our first nuke vessel and our first with ballistic missiles. The missiles themselves seem to be of the fairly low end variety to be of practical value. My expectations from this boat are limited but I am fairly sure those expectations will be squarely met. And that is all right.

The follow on to the Arihants will be the ones which will genuinely figure in the nuclear force calculus.

When they can make deterrence patrols, they will make deterrence patrols - make no mistake about it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shiv »

This whole board is being overrun by newbies. First GeorgeJ and then Badar Humph :evil:

I think there are one or two things that have been inadvertently come up her.

The first is the idea that our current Agnis are somehow being lugged around with no cover or a tarpaulin cover. I seem to recall that the only video of an Agni on rails to appear and then disappear on youtube showed a fully covered up container.

The second thing is to reiterate what Badar said. NFU is not about launching Indian nukes as soon as we suspect that someone is launching their nukes at us. It is about taking one or more proven nuclear hits, surviving and then hitting back. The question of push button launch does not arise.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

the agni train video showed a train wagon with premably clamshell or sliding door (which was explained in a india today drawing as well) but not the actual act of firing..which I assume would be from a 'exposed' missile not a cansister..unlike the Russian icbms that put the cansister inside the covered wagon. but atleast in rail mobile mode it is fully protected by the wagon.

maybe thats why the relative delay in road mobile ICBM and only now talk of seriously going to road mobile mode with A5...thinking that way makes sense why we avoid the road mobile route so far.

prithvi we had to manage as no other option was there.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20651 »

hi,
Can anybody through any light on night launch and strike capability of A1, A2 and Prithivi. Last test was a faliure.

Secondly, any update on newly implemended nav sys in A4 is capable of day and night launch.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Badar »

negi wrote:To be honest I do not know the answer
Sorry I meant it as an rhetorical question. Once the missile, the boat and their mating are proven they will be armed - no ifs and buts about it. I will say though it is probably a long while away. Thats is why there is a lackadaisical progress on the C&C front with jostling services and haggling bureaucrats.
negi wrote:all I know is for our triad to be operational there has to be a nuclear chain of command in place which imo does not exist today. There is a nice BRM paper by Dinesh Mannan on a related topic.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... inesh.html
Ah, interesting view from a decade back, the more things change the more they remain the same.
negi wrote: We still do not have a CDS as there are internal turf battles going on in such a scenario like any other policy of ours the chain of command too is blurred and unclear hence I have no reason to believe that our warheads have been mated with any of our delivery platforms.
I agree, I don't believe that any are mated at the moment and there is no good reason for mating them at the moment either. But this will change when the SSBNs come online (weather next year or the next decade). I also do not see it as a escalation of nuclear posture vis-a-vis Pakistan or China.

Once command can exert positive control through technological means (eLocks/PALs etc) there will be less emphasis on physical/organizational separation of warhead and delivery-vehicle as a safe guard that reassures both us and the likely adversaries.

As an aside, What would make you feel safer? Pakistani MRBMs mated with warheads but safely ensconced in missile fields and silos or lightly escorted nukes zipping around in unmarked delivery vans for safe keeping as they do now?

Regarding containerization of missiles, the issue is not of protecting the missile from the elements or covering it up or acting as a mobile carry case. A containerized missile is a sealed black box. The end user (field units) has no other interaction with the missile other than to periodically check a BITE lamp for missile status, turn the pointy end towards the enemy and hit the red launch button. Containerization takes the "rocket science" out of maintaining and launching a missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

^^ feels like I am back in my lurker days. :)
chilarai wrote:The recent launch pics from livefist, the missile turns as it goes up ? one pic i can see "bharat" and another one i can see "India" . Looks like the pics were taken from the same side. or maybe there is slight change in camera angles .. those round things at the bottom(lights ? ) seems to be in different position
no idea if this is the reason but missile rotation is one of the ways used to throw off ABM lasers.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Rahulda, too much imagination :)

The pics are from different angles ... look at the 'pole' vis-a-vis the missile in both the pics ... in one of the pics it is to the right side while on the other it is on the left ... for this to happen the two picture angles must be separated by close to or more than 90 degrees.

Image Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Any N doctrine is primarily for our comfort and for our own safety. It takes care of our necessities and adapts based on our capabilities. If any thing above changes, automatically policy changes. If our capabilities change, as China did, we may change the policy, if it suits us.

If we have a good intel that Pak going to launch N missiles say Shaheen, are we going to sit tight and verify by their detonation before we launch our own N tipped missiles? People used to say NFU policy is for peacetime - this for our comfort. Period. No plan weathers through wartime. It includes policies, very much NFU policy too.

Deterrence is all for rational people. Pak pysche is increasingly becoming irrational. As Secret Service used to say, if the attacker shows total disregard for his life, he can get through any defence. Once we reach that stage, policy automatically shifts to push-button/hair-trigger deterrence.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

thanks indranil, I wasn't looking at the pics when I wrote that.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

On the theme of long lost members, will BRF also see the return of Nandi and Micheal Baxter. :?: :wink:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"On the theme of long lost members, will BRF also see the return of Nandi and Micheal Baxter."

What about Rocko, ( with his fascination for nano-technology and India's efforts there) D.Mahalingam and Sunil Sainis?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

Nandai not Nandi. i missed the episode but was told baxter was a EJ who got exposed by jumrao(spinster) and some others. most of you know kaushal is in another forum and so probably is SS. Amitabh was some kind of think tanker/"DDM"/rationalist those days...always playing the contrarian role to our maximalist demands. Smersh , vikrant chitre, daryus aden, vraghav, vverma (apparently ex-iaf), j.arya...

among the 'survivors' from 1997-2000 era not many are there now...shiv, jumrao (if he is hiding under another skin),ramana, admiral koshy, ...
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Badar »

Singha, what about uncle narayana, i.e. N3 news network aka "the crumbling wreck from Georgia Tech"?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

N3 had a fight and left.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by negi »

Ha ha he is on facebook these days :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Badar »

GD, SS was the resident rocketry expert right? Which forums might those be ... if mentioning the forum is not verboten.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

dont confuse SS with Arun_S. SS was the nuclear guy. you can search for arun on the net...his drawings are on other forums now.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Leo.Davidson »

shiv wrote:Speaking of "push-button deterrent" are we speaking of an American doctrine or an Indian one? Nowhere in the Indian doctrine does it say that India intends to have a push-button deterrent. But I suppose if it is Indian it can't be good and we are better off following rahrah America.
Apparently Shiv has a really narrow mindset. Unable to clarify points he resorts to calling people names.

Anyway I brought out 2 points.

(1) Containerized. This is a system of packaging the weapon so that it is protected from the elements and theft/vandalism, while it is being transported or in dormant state. There is no damage done during setup and firing. And this also implies that no specialized technicial work is required during the launch phase.

Except for the Shaurya, I haven't seen any other Indian nuclear tactical missile containerized.

(2) Push button. This is not an American philoshopy. The missile in question was also launched by the push of a button, no one at DRDO, took a sursuri (sparkler) and ignited the Agni's engine from under it. Pushbutton is the methodology of having a small unit carrying out the whole launch sequence autonomously.
DRDO will not be launching India's missiles in retaliation, the Indian Army or Airforce will be doing it. So, when I see them conducting the test, I'll be releived that we have a viable working deterrence.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shiv »

Leo.Davidson wrote: Apparently Shiv has a really narrow mindset. Unable to clarify points he resorts to calling people names.
Saar DaviduPutrudu is Davidson in an Indian language. Yes I am calling you by your name in an Indian language.Go back and check out the discussion that your ignorant post started off. You are no longer needed to answer the questions I asked in any case. Others have done that.
Leo.Davidson wrote: Anyway I brought out 2 points.

(1) Containerized. This is a system of packaging the weapon so that it is protected from the elements and theft/vandalism, while it is being transported or in dormant state. There is no damage done during setup and firing. And this also implies that no specialized technicial work is required during the launch phase.

Except for the Shaurya, I haven't seen any other Indian nuclear tactical missile containerized.

(2) Push button. This is not an American philoshopy. The missile in question was also launched by the push of a button, no one at DRDO, took a sursuri (sparkler) and ignited the Agni's engine from under it. Pushbutton is the methodology of having a small unit carrying out the whole launch sequence autonomously.
DRDO will not be launching India's missiles in retaliation, the Indian Army or Airforce will be doing it. So, when I see them conducting the test, I'll be releived that we have a viable working deterrence.
Nonsense. Stop bluffing. You did not bring out these points

Here is the post you made
Leo.Davidson wrote: Until the missiles are containerized, I will not believe we have a pushbutton deterrent. Right now, we have a missile system that takes atleast a day in preparations.
Last edited by shiv on 02 Dec 2011 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

so, what is the difference between canister and container? is it tube vs. cube?

what is canisterisation? process and methods. What are the objectives here? Is it mainly to secure the WMD or add a tfta value?

can't we still have NFU strikes without canisterisation?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

"Cannister", "wooden round" all are words to describe ready to launch configuration.

Container is for shipping and transportation. This the jargon of the industry.


Rotation is about the longitudinal axis aka roll axis. There is hardly any aero forces that do that. The minor ones are due to the assymetry of the cable raceway along the length of the vehcile.

In Shourya the vehicle is rolled on purpose to cool the vehicle.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Leo.Davidson »

shiv wrote:
Leo.Davidson wrote: Apparently Shiv has a really narrow mindset. Unable to clarify points he resorts to calling people names.
Saar DaviduPutrudu is Davidson in an Indian language. Yes I am calling you by your name in an Indian language.Go back and check out the discussion that your ignorant post started off. You are no longer needed to answer the questions I asked in any case. Others have done that.
Leo.Davidson wrote: Anyway I brought out 2 points.

(1) Containerized. This is a system of packaging the weapon so that it is protected from the elements and theft/vandalism, while it is being transported or in dormant state. There is no damage done during setup and firing. And this also implies that no specialized technicial work is required during the launch phase.

Except for the Shaurya, I haven't seen any other Indian nuclear tactical missile containerized.

(2) Push button. This is not an American philoshopy. The missile in question was also launched by the push of a button, no one at DRDO, took a sursuri (sparkler) and ignited the Agni's engine from under it. Pushbutton is the methodology of having a small unit carrying out the whole launch sequence autonomously.
DRDO will not be launching India's missiles in retaliation, the Indian Army or Airforce will be doing it. So, when I see them conducting the test, I'll be releived that we have a viable working deterrence.
Nonsense. Stop bluffing. You did not bring out these points

Here is the post you made
Leo.Davidson wrote: Until the missiles are containerized, I will not believe we have a pushbutton deterrent. Right now, we have a missile system that takes atleast a day in preparations.
Well Madrasi, I'll try to be more articulate, Just for You. Apparently, I need to explain in many words, pictures, etc. or you don't get it.
Last edited by Rahul M on 02 Dec 2011 22:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: warning 1.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Leo.Davidson »

SaiK wrote:so, what is the difference between canister and container? is it tube vs. cube?

what is canisterisation? process and methods. What are the objectives here? Is it mainly to secure the WMD or add a tfta value?

can't we still have NFU strikes without canisterisation?
My Bad. I meant canister.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rajanb »

Leo.Davidson wrote: Until the missiles are containerized, I will not believe we have a pushbutton deterrent. Right now, we have a missile system that takes atleast a day in preparations.

Well Madrasi, I'll try to be more articulate, Just for You. Apparently, I need to explain in many words, pictures, etc. or you don't get it.
Oye! You have crossed a red line. WE ARE INDIANS FIRST AND INDIANS LAST. I am a north Indian proud of my Madrasi name.

MODS: Upto you to take appropriate action
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Badar »

Leo.Davidson wrote: Well Madrasi, I'll try to be more articulate, Just for You. Apparently, I need to explain in many words, pictures, etc. or you don't get it.
Ah! Just like good old days ... Nostalgia... :lol:

Around this time, Calvin would have come with the banhammer.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shiv »

Leo.Davidson wrote:
Well Madrasi, I'll try to be more articulate, Just for You. Apparently, I need to explain in many words, pictures, etc. or you don't get it.
:rotfl: Ah - you have dropped your chaddi by yourself friend! You know as much about Indian languages as about missiles. Thanks for going out of your way to look stupid - "Leo. Davidson"
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rakall »

SaiK wrote:so, what is the difference between canister and container? is it tube vs. cube?

what is canisterisation? process and methods. What are the objectives here? Is it mainly to secure the WMD or add a tfta value?

can't we still have NFU strikes without canisterisation?

A1 & A2 are "container"ised.. they are road mobile, as well as rail-mobile.. properly disguised..

Shourya is "canister"ised... able to be stored & transported for a longtime..Possibly even without any necessary climate control within the canister..

A3 is the first step towards "canister"ization of the longer range BM... I think the A2 has been sufficiently canisterized in its latest evolution as A-IV.. I think both A3 & A4/A-IV will go a longway into testing & validating all the necessary tech for canisterization...

The first true canisterised long-range BM will be Agni5/Agni-V & its SLBM version;and future evolutions with MIRV's... My supposition from the days of first test of A-3 was that it will mostly be a TD & stop-gap arrangement... Ultimately the bulk of BM inventory will be Agni-1, Agni-IV & Agni-V.... The SLBM inventory will be Shourya/Sagarika, followed by the SLBM version of Agni-V....

We can still have NFU or FFU without canisterization... Canisterization just greatly improves the mobility, storability, survivability, flexibility, maintainability !!!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

i love the specs of the cancelled american midgetman road mobile icbm...
carried a single 250kg warhead for 300KT yield. it was only 14t and 14m long , 1.2 m diameter ....and yet three stages and 11,000km range .... a good example of efficient cutting edge design methinks...khan sir having proven small h-bomb makes all the diff why A4 still has to plan for 800kg payload while khan gets by with 250.


In design the XMGM-134A was a three-stage solid-fuelled missile. Like the LGM-118 Peacekeeper it used the cold launch system, in which gas pressure was used to eject the missile from the launch canister. The rocket would only ignite once the missile was free of the launcher.

The Midgetman was to be carried by a Hard Mobile Launcher (HML) vehicle (see additional pictures at Small ICBM Hard Mobile Launcher ). Most of these vehicles would normally remain on bases, only being deployed in times of international crisis when nuclear war was considered more likely.

The Midgetman had a range of some 11,000 kilometers (6,800 miles). The warhead comprised a single Mark 21 re-entry vehicle with a 475 kiloton W87-1 thermonuclear warhead.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Leo.Davidson »

rajanb wrote:
Leo.Davidson wrote: Until the missiles are containerized, I will not believe we have a pushbutton deterrent. Right now, we have a missile system that takes atleast a day in preparations.

Well Madrasi, I'll try to be more articulate, Just for You. Apparently, I need to explain in many words, pictures, etc. or you don't get it.
Oye! You have crossed a red line. WE ARE INDIANS FIRST AND INDIANS LAST. I am a north Indian proud of my Madrasi name.

MODS: Upto you to take appropriate action
Nice syndicate you got running here. Provoke, Poke and Punish.

give me one more reason and I will gladly eschew the multiple warning formality and
ban you permanently.
Rahul.
Last edited by Rahul M on 02 Dec 2011 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: warning 2.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Leo.Davidson »

shiv wrote:
Leo.Davidson wrote:
Well Madrasi, I'll try to be more articulate, Just for You. Apparently, I need to explain in many words, pictures, etc. or you don't get it.
:rotfl: Ah - you have dropped your chaddi by yourself friend! You know as much about Indian languages as about missiles. Thanks for going out of your way to look stupid - "Leo. Davidson"
Who needs enemies, when surrounded with people like you?
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