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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 09:55 
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It is cold launch it is ejected out from a pressurized canister and when the missile is certain distance above the water the rocket fires.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 11:41 
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So are the canisters smooth bore or rifled? :P


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 14:05 
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The ejected missile has an accelerometer, which when it detects a -ve motion (deceleration), the missile's rocket is fired. Nothing to do with the height to which it rises. (The problem with height based firing is that it may not achieve that height every time.)


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 14:48 
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harbans wrote:
So are the canisters smooth bore or rifled? :P

:rotfl: Can't stop laughing.
Sanku ji will be the right person to comment on that :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 15:16 
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India developing radar-destroying Anti-Radiation Missile
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After the success of Agni-V project, India is developing an Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM) which can hugely multiply the strike capabilities by destroying the enemy's advance warning system.

Production of the ARM, which are among the most advanced missiles, is being undertaken on priority basis by the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), which specialises in the missile development.

Such missiles can be mounted on Sukhoi fighter planes Su-30 MKI, 140 of which have already been acquired by India from Russia and around 100 more are expected to be delivered in due course of time.

These missile can detect a radar by tracking its electro-magnetic radiation and pulses generated, an official told PTI, adding these would be independent of the radar wavelength and be able to destroy it.

Such missiles, currently in use of some major powers like the US, can detect and attack a radar antenna or transmitter with minimal aircrew input.

The proportional guidance system that homes in on enemy radar emissions has a fixed antenna and seeker head in the missile's nose.

The Anti-Radiation Missiles in use by the US Air Force move at the speed of over Mach 2, propelled by a smokeless and solid-propellant rocket motor.

The US Air Force introduced High Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARM) on the F-4G Wild Weasel and later on specialised F-16s equipped with the HARM Targeting System (HTS).

Other projects being undertaken on priority basis by the DRDO are Long Range Air-to-Air Missile and Short Range Surface-to-Air Missile.

The flight test and production clearance of Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missiles is also on the cards.

The DRDO is also planning guided flight of Astra Missile from ground and air in the near future.

Operationalisation of the third regiment of BrahMos missile for Army, its integration with Su-30 MKI as also underwater trials from pontoon are also on the priority list.

DRDO is also working on early static validation trials of Pinaka MK-II rocket, with an extended range of 60 kms, along with user trials of its warhead.


The present range of the Pinaka rocket, launched in clusters of 12 from indigenously-built multi-barrel launcher, is 39-40 km in 40 seconds with 1.2 tons of high explosives.

Fitted with a variety of warheads like anti-tank mines and blast-cum-pre-fragmented high explosives, Pinaka can destroy an area of 350 sq kms.

Army has already raised two regiments of Pinaka and more are planned.

Flight trial of 'Prahar' missile as tactical battlefield surface-to-surface weapon system is also in the pipeline.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 18:11 
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firing the rocket on accelerometer alone is pretty complex logic, that it might need altimeter or relative negativity above a certain delta value. the problem is the speed of the projectile at (ejection subsurface point) delta time, is faster than the speed when it hits the surface. there will be a reduction in velocity.

It could also have oxygen sensors or other sensors combined with accelerometer.. I am thinking it can't be just one device to provide precision firing., and it is dangerous to wait to fire based on accelerometer alone, even with fault tolerant measures. other sensors include water based pressure sensors, water level pressure transducers, atmospheric barometric ones to sense air etc.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 21:01 
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^^^^^

Perhaps, I am no expert. That was my recollection from a BR discussion from the "Sunil" era.

However, gas generators were the biggest problem they had to resolve. To propel a 50-70 ton object to the surface, in proper form (proper inclination, etc, etc, etc) was a task. Today, I am told, they have a solid rocket motor that heats some amount of water to generate steam as on-the-go "gas". The missile is never touched by the sea water at any stage during the ascend.

So, please apply all your sensors to this scenario.

There are plenty of slow-motion videos on youTube.

And, let me know you FIND, not speculate.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 21:28 
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In this video, the missile is chucked into water first..so i guess it does get wet after all:

http://gridviper.com/fire/powerful-unde ... cket-test/


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 23:06 
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^ Above is a ship launched sequence in fact the main stage gets ignited under the water itself , that does not happen for any of the SLBMs all of them get hurled up clear of the water surface via cold launch before their main stage kicks in.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 23:19 
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Indian ARM sounds cool. Any specs?


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 23:33 
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SaiK wrote:
Indian ARM sounds cool. Any specs?


There was some talk about using akash propulsion system,might get modified for extended range.


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012 23:53 
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harbans wrote:
In this video, the missile is chucked into water first..so i guess it does get wet after all:

http://gridviper.com/fire/powerful-unde ... cket-test/


Sir,

Let us not cloud the discussion - about sub launched IC missiles. (Not CM, rockets, torpedoes, etc.) Thx.

Now, to the post you have made, do you know - for sure - what that device is? Is it is a tech-demo? Is the missile within a canister? I downloaded it and went frame by frame, and it does not look like a missile when it is shot into the water. It is an interesting technology, but does not address the IC missile launch from a sub.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 00:16 
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Quote:
Now, to the post you have made, do you know - for sure - what that device is? Is it is a tech-demo?


Rao ji, no Sir with me. And no i don't have an idea how that worked or the point of launching it in that manner. But it was wet for sure..:)


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 01:15 
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Dharma R wrote:
SaiK wrote:
Indian ARM sounds cool. Any specs?


There was some talk about using akash propulsion system,might get modified for extended range.


Akash is just one of possible options. The main advantage of a ramjet is that it does not have to carry the oxidizer en masse for the sustainer, and also offers end game energy.

Via the Trishul India developed a smokeless high energy propellant system which would not attenuate radio signals (a challenge with the earlier Trishul) - this was then further used (along with the maraging steel tech) in Astra. Now for the LRSAM/MRSAM programs, DRDL has developed a dual pulse motor. This is taking the tech for the T/A further, and keeping the Akash requirement (decent range, high terminal energy) alive but without the weight penalty. Either (the Astra or the LR/MRSAM) approach could be reused for an ARM, by reusing existing tech developed, matured for another program, but within the constraints of a Sukhoi carriage.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 03:44 
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KaranM, As part of IGMP, Trishul based ARM was in the cards. It had a very long range ~110km. Wings of Fire alludes to it. Norman Palomar the US expert used to write about it in the late 80s.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 03:49 
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ramana wrote:
KaranM, As part of IGMP, Trishul based ARM was in the cards. It had a very long range ~110km. Wings of Fire alludes to it. Norman Palomar the US expert used to write about it in the late 80s.


Since Astra uses tech developed for Trishul SAM and gets a decent range in AAM role, it is plausible that the above range in an AGM role.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 07:20 
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pankajs wrote:
Agni-V — guidance on chip
Quote:
Responding to my earlier blog on the advanced chip-embedded guidance system successfuly tested on Agni-V, an expert at the cutting edge of these technologies emailed me the following. It will flesh out the understanding of interested readers so I’m copying it here:
“With regards to your latest article, the “fly-by-wire” concept in the A-5 comes from digitally connected multi-channel communications within its body for the control system, thereby reducing a lot of the cabling that would have otherwise gone into these missiles. This serves to reduce the risk of failure in the missile system and increases dependability.
“With regards to the embedding of the guidance system on chip (SOC), which enables the A-5 to possess superior accuracy, there is indeed an on-board computer on the A-5, which is more powerful than any used in previous vehicles. However, previous computers had severe weight, space, and cooling constraints. The guidance SOC based computers that weigh just 200 grams and possess around 7-10 times greater processing power than their predecessors. The embedded guidance SOC concept requires very little power, imposes much less space constraints, requires far less cooling, and, also very importantly, is not only more reliable and efficient, but also allows for far greater flexibility when choosing the warhead configuration.”

8)

Figure out the 8)!


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 08:12 
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What we also need are PGMs which can take out electrical installations similar to those NATO/US used in the Balkans ,where spools of wire fried key Serbian substtaions,etc.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 09:51 
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Also a 50 tonne three stage missile with ~ 1 t payload has ~7 km/sec re-entry velocity. That in any case is an all azimuth weapon.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 15:21 
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India developing radar-destroying Anti-Radiation Missile

Quote:
India is developing an Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM) which can hugely multiply the strike capabilities by destroying the enemy’s advance warning system.Production of the ARM, which are among the most advanced missiles, is being undertaken on priority basis by the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), which specialises in the missile development.

Such missiles can be mounted on Sukhoi fighter planes Su-30 MKI, 140 of which have already been acquired by India from Russia and around 100 more are expected to be delivered in due course of time.
These missile can detect a radar by tracking its electro-magnetic radiation and pulses generated, an official told PTI, adding these would be independent of the radar wavelength and be able to destroy it.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 19:57 
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I am thinking for an advanced ARM, we would require more stealthier skins or coatings, so that the radiating target (moveable ) does not realize the incoming threat, and evade or switch off..

a new design could be an automatic fusion logic that once the target is locked, it keeps a live radiation signature, and once it detects a counter move, the logic quickly scrambles from the locked coordinates using mmw or infra and continue to lock on. a switch mode from passive to active and vice-versa with a smokless pulse engine could devastate any enemy.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 22:32 
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Ramana, thank you. What a validation. Here I was working out that a Trishul sort of motor (and apparently, my memory had failed- it too was a dual pulse one) would be excellent for an ARM (especially one launched at altitude) and you bring out this very interesting nugget!

The ARM brings out yet another "new addition" to IGMDP MK2 or MK3 which is underway, we have Prahaar, Shourya, K-series, Agni series, Pinaka upgraded, Brahmos MK2, Nirbhay, LRCM for the SSM sort of roles, and for the tactical systems we have Akash MK2, BMD, LRSAM/MRSAM, Astra (plus apparently the longer range derivative), in the A2G role we have Helina/Nag MK2 (7km), the new ARM, a new ASM, plus new smart munitions (mother package with baby smart munitions), Sudarshan, the E-bomb, and other stuff. All this news coming out in the past few years.

By the end of this new development series, Saraswat would have finished off Kalam's effort and added his own imprint on India's weapons programs. The constant talk about production means that they have already identified this critical area and are buttressing it.

All said and done, despite irritants of monopoly position etc, BDL and BEL have managed to more or less handle the tough challenges so far. Even hitches like the consortium partner unable to get the goods etc for Akash have been handled by BEL - indicates they can absorb technology and even supplant it at systems level as required. Radar flow is also being maintained. The increasing user tests of Agni series also show that production of Agni is underway at BDL or missile producing agencies in a consistent fashion. Prithvi was stabilized quite a few years back by the same yardstick.

Now, only if land systems development gets out of the hands of the OFB and into the private sector, for reliable, mass manufacture at decent quality!

Saraswat also mentions his team is now looking seriously at CMD - this basically means the next phase of sensor development. We have the missile technology available to knock down cruise missiles. What the team will clearly look at now is persistent sensor coverage to detect, acquire and engage these targets, which means local aerostat based radars, more investment in AEW&C systems.

I don't know how many people noticed that the LSTAR displayed at Defexpo was pretty much a fully scaled up AESA worthy of an AEW&C platform as versus initial reports of it being a smaller version for just test and validation purposes. Not only do they have the hardware ready but have been clearly working on testing the radar, which means software work.

Considering each of these AEW&C platforms costs anywhere from $300-$400 mn nowadays, its money well saved.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2012 22:58 
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KaranM, Will look-up the page number and quote from WOF tonight.


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 00:29 
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For CMD, i think we only need to work a lot in the realization of sensors.

CM`s are the most vulnerable once detected.Even an AAM can bring it down with its mother A/C cruising just right behind it.

Having said that, its only when sub-sonic ones are taken into consideration.For high supersonic and hypersonic is entirely a diff ball game when both detection and interception is concerned.

Maybe we need to mass produce those aerostats capable of carrying large enough radars at a decent altitude to detect all CM`s from atleast a 500km range


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 01:17 
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wouldn't aerostats more vulnerable than ground based movable setup like samyukta and sangraha.. of course the range should be a concern at 500km requirement. Now, we can think of relays based distributed setup, with nodes on highbandwidth secure channel.


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 01:28 
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Looks like this op-ed was missed!

Beyond Agni 5

Quote:
Beyond Agni-5
Go for ICBMs and thermonukes, says N.V.Subramanian.

25 April 2012: Now that the slightly over-the-top celebrations of Agni-5's test have ceased, some harsh truths must be told. Agni-5 has a five-thousand-kilometre range and can carry a one-ton nuclear payload. For India's strategic requirements, that is not enough.

Without stating who India's enemies are, the country must have deterrent capacities to reach anywhere, anytime. Since India is also a self-proclaimed second-strike power, it becomes critical to have credible and secure deterrents, and our current inventory is unsatisfactory.

From available evidence, it appears that India will deploy boosted fission warheads on missiles like Agni-5. It confirms that the thermonuclear devise tested on the first day of Pokhran II failed. The boosted fission trigger worked but couldn't ignite the paired fusion bomb.

The Indian nuclear scientific establishment has its own explanation for the low yield of the thermonuclear device. It has never satisfied the world. You can take the attitude that it doesn't matter what the world thinks. In other walks of life, that may work. But not when it comes to deterrent weapons.

Deterrent weapons not only have to be repeatedly tested for perfection. But they must satisfy the rest of the world. Only from world satisfaction comes credibility for a weapon system. If a deterrent is not credible, it is not worth having, and positively dangerous to flaunt.

It is possible that India has built a viable thermonuclear device after the Pokhran II fizzle. But this or a future Indian government will have a hard time testing it, especially as it will have a bearing on the Indo-US nuclear deal and the uranium fuel and reactor contracts flowing from it. Sooner or later, however, India has to overcome the obstacle and test -- and the sooner the better.

The Agni-5 test has produced little protest from major powers, which means there is greater reconciliation to India's military nuclear status. That should give India the creative opportunity and space to test a thermonuclear weapon. To stress, the sooner it is done, the better.

Boosted fission warheads that Agni-5 and longer range missiles are expected to carry have the bang, so to speak. But thermonuclear devices have more bang for the buck. With far better yield-to-weight ratios than fission or boosted-fission devices, smaller and lighter fusion warheads would cause vast destruction at greater distances. Which is where, therefore, Indian weapons' designs and tests must head, if the country must be counted as a serious weapons' power.

Which in turn leads to the quality, Indianness and reach of our missiles. Of course it is not a matter to tom-tom that you have missiles that go to the top end of ICBMs, but there is robust deterrent logic to have them. The longer the range of missiles, the more deployment options you have, and at greater strategic depth.

For example, it cannot make sense to deploy deterrent weapons in Jammu and Kashmir or Assam where they are most vulnerable to a first-strike. The longer the missile range, the further inland it can be deployed. But there are limits to the security of land-based deterrent systems. The Andamans may seem a long way away from the threats from the North and West, but weapons systems deployed there are vulnerable from sea and natural calamities.

A sea-based deterrent is more secure. But whilst it demands the most sophisticated, secure, fool-proof and fail-safe fire control, command and control and informational systems, its foremost requirement, after SSBNs, is long range missiles. And the longer the range of missiles, the more secure your deterrent.

Hence, whilst Agni-5 is a good starting point, India must place no ceiling on the missile range. If an Indian IRBM is acceptable to the world, why not an ICBM? And our need is for the longest range of ICBMs, so that we have secure deterrents deployed in any of the waters of the world. And with tested and perfected thermonuclear weapons, the world would accept the credibility and soundness of our deterrent.

That is where India should be headed.



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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 01:59 
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SaiK wrote:
wouldn't aerostats more vulnerable than ground based movable setup like samyukta and sangraha.. of course the range should be a concern at 500km requirement. Now, we can think of relays based distributed setup, with nodes on high bandwidth secure channel.
They might be vulnerable, but provided enough defenses, they are the best bet against terrain hugging CM`s.

For supersonic and hypersonic CM`s ground based radars might be sufficient considering that their flying altitude is a min of 10kms? except the end game ground hugging feature.

We cant afford to deploy AWACS 24/7 for surveillance of CM`s and sats is really expensive considering their LEO placement.

A fancy way might be having a CIWS mounted on the aerostat itself.self defending :D


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 02:46 
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put the mijjile in abujmad no one has a map of it not even GOI :D


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 03:02 
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^ :rotfl: .
--
It is imperative that protection against CM, but aerostats alone is not a strong solution, rather pretty much weak. terrain hugging low flying CMs have long incubation time considering our neighborhood capability (chippanda club).. even then 300km is what we could think.. let us not give into brahmos like counter missile is already available with our enemies.

From a setup angle, we have time to establish radar network, around cities, important installations, etc. that may include aerostats as some specific area protection rather a all eggs in a basket solution. distributed network is mandatory.. installing on top of all tall buildings, all large ships, all hilltops, etc is a necessacity.

Again, we have to measure our threat perception, and priorities before we suddenly think aerostats is the only way. Once blown to pieces, they provide nothing... they are not just vulnerable, but will cause a grave disaster if shot down [like bikini wearing beach girls].


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 09:01 
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^^ What is the news on the Astra??

There was a flurry of Ground tests 2 years back and suddenly everything quiet after that?


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 19:07 
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sum wrote:
^^ What is the news on the Astra??

There was a flurry of Ground tests 2 years back and suddenly everything quiet after that?


in the process of guided testing phase from ground with onboard seeker.

Flight tests onboard MKI have been successful. After testing from ground, next will be from air.


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 19:10 
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Flight tests inboard MKI were done from ground ???


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 19:13 
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^^ IIRC, the missile was attached to thepylons but was more for G-testing etc...No air-to-air firing has taken place yet.

The pace of the programme seems to have really fallen off though going by the stage of air-to-air not being reached even after 4-5 years after the initial ground tests.


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PostPosted: 01 May 2012 19:20 
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krishnan wrote:
Flight tests inboard MKI were done from ground ???


If my memory serves right, they were done in late 2009 and then in early 2010.

After that couple more tests of ground firing done. Now integration with seeker and all done and will be tested soon.Once the ground tests against electronic target and towed target done, then will be firing from MKI. They are also speeding up the process now, under the new fast tracking orders received from MOD. Might get to see firing from MKI in the early 2013.

Also a kabhootar told me that the new version MKII(langggg range) was being prioritized at the same time. Technically they are running two AAM projects at the same time.


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PostPosted: 02 May 2012 04:21 
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SaiK wrote:
^ :rotfl: .
--
It is imperative that protection against CM, but aerostats alone is not a strong solution, rather pretty much weak. terrain hugging low flying CMs have long incubation time considering our neighborhood capability (chippanda club).. even then 300km is what we could think.. let us not give into brahmos like counter missile is already available with our enemies.

From a setup angle, we have time to establish radar network, around cities, important installations, etc. that may include aerostats as some specific area protection rather a all eggs in a basket solution. distributed network is mandatory.. installing on top of all tall buildings, all large ships, all hilltops, etc is a necessacity.

Again, we have to measure our threat perception, and priorities before we suddenly think aerostats is the only way. Once blown to pieces, they provide nothing... they are not just vulnerable, but will cause a grave disaster if shot down [like bikini wearing beach girls].


I was just working with google unkil and found this concept of US
Quote:
“The JLENS system consists of four main components: the aerostats, the radars, the mooring station and the processing station. The aerostats are unmanned, tethered, non-rigid aerodynamic structures filled with a helium/air mix. The aerostats are 77 yards long (three-fourths of a football field) and almost as wide as a football field. The aerostats must be large enough to lift the heavy radars that provide the system’s extended range. The radars are optimized for their separate, specific functions, but weigh several tons each. The surveillance radar searches very long distances to find small radar cross-section tracks before they can threaten friendly assets. The fire control radar looks out at shorter ranges than the surveillance radar, but provides highly accurate data to help identify and classify tracks while providing fire control quality data to a variety of interceptors. The two aerostats are connected to the ground via tethers through which power and data is transmitted. The tethers enables the aerostats to operate at altitudes of up to 15,000 feet and contain power lines, fiber-optic data lines and Kevlar-strengthened strands surrounded by an insulated protective sleeve. The tethers connect to mobile mooring stations that anchor the aerostats to the ground and control their deployment and retrieval. The mooring stations are connected to ground-mounted power plants and processing stations. The processing stations are the brains of the whole system. Each processing station contains an operator workstation, a flight-director control station, weather-monitoring equipment and a computer that controls radar functions and processes radar data.”

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/jle ... ore-02921/


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PostPosted: 02 May 2012 05:02 
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Huge scope for exporting weapon system:DRDO chief

Quote:
He also informed that the controlled navigation flight trial of Long-Range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) would be conducted in June which will be followed by a series of flight tests to prove complete efficacy of the system.

"By 2013 you will see LR-SAM completing its flight trial and it is expected to be inducted in 2014," Saraswat said adding the Medium Range surface-to-air missile (MR-SAM) was also getting ready, being in advanced stage of development and is likely to get into service by 2015.


Confidence!!!!!

Quote:
Go for ICBMs and thermonukes, says N.V.Subramanian.


Cool, someone to back me!!! :wink:

There is a very small window, in which India can test and get away.


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PostPosted: 02 May 2012 06:04 
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NRao wrote:
Huge scope for exporting weapon system:DRDO chief

Quote:
He also informed that the controlled navigation flight trial of Long-Range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) would be conducted in June which will be followed by a series of flight tests to prove complete efficacy of the system.

"By 2013 you will see LR-SAM completing its flight trial and it is expected to be inducted in 2014," Saraswat said adding the Medium Range surface-to-air missile (MR-SAM) was also getting ready, being in advanced stage of development and is likely to get into service by 2015.


...


It looks like the following:
  • LR-SAM -> IN version (previously also called Barak-NG)
  • MR-SAM -> IAF version (previously also called Barak-8)


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PostPosted: 02 May 2012 07:29 
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Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31
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NRao wrote:


Quote:
Go for ICBMs and thermonukes, says N.V.Subramanian.


Cool, someone to back me!!! :wink:

There is a very small window, in which India can test and get away.

Of course it will be done. It is just a simple matter of timing.


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PostPosted: 02 May 2012 15:51 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
a small and efficient 300kg variable yield design with tests for 100KT, 250KT and 400KT is what we need. we can test the same untested device over a couple of days at various yield levels. should provide a complete picture. we can also do repeat test in the same series of Shakti devices that work and form current arsenal for Agni series.

a series of around 10 tests spread over a week should give us enough confidence for the next leg of the Great Game. the howling if any wont be any worse for 10 test vs 1 test, so might as well do 10 if needed.

we can also gather data about latest chinese designs in the retaliatory series of paki tests that will follow after 2 weeks.


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PostPosted: 02 May 2012 16:58 
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Joined: 22 Nov 2011 18:59
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For the ARM, Shaurya can already be used as a potent long range ARM to destroy long range early warning and over the horizon radars. It only needs work on the seeker, i think K-15 should also have this long range ARM capability, could be great in destroying the enemy's early warning radars. furthermore we could deploy these quietly with subs or road canisterized lauchers. for mid range radars we do need a air launched ARM, ideally with a range of around 150 km+.

I think shaurya and Sagarika should be used primarily as tactical conventional attack missiles to take out key enemy targets including long range early warning assets. they have the speed. Just have a conventional warhead with CL-20 and watch while this highly capable missile take out super critical targets at a decent range. Take out the early warning systems and the skies are open for surprise attacks.

A mini air launched shaurya could be developed with a max range of around 200 to take out SAM radars.


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