Conduct your own war

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Dec 2011 01:43

Read about siege of Belgian fort Eben Emael in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Eben-Emael

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 14 Dec 2011 02:03

shiv wrote:The replies that "my" scenario attracted are interesting. I see no point in quibbling over details - especially because some of the replies have been very detailed. The question that comes to my mind is "Why did I not plan or say anything in the original scenario about what I would do if there was an air attack or a combined air-land attack"

The word "pincer" used by Aharam is an ancient army tactic, but the same "pincer" outflanking can be done by the air using air power except that the "flank" is now in the 3rd dimension.

Clearly this canal-shanal-bund-lund business seems great for tanks but falls flat when air power comes into play. Air dominance clearly becomes a vital aspect of both attack and defence and I just wonder how any of the replies made to my scenario can be defeated by air power from my side. On the face of it - if I can ensure local airs superiority a force of just 3 or 4 attack aircraft should be able to substantially blunt the attempted assault across the canal. No?

Hi Shiv,
You are right in that I was changing a typical two dimensional enveloping pincer into a third air dimension where the attacker had an advantage. That said, the defenses here are formidable - nothing that can assuredly taken over in a 48 hour window.

To eliminate the third dimension, the defender doesn't really need air superiority. All they need is hardened missile silos with the tracking radar well behind the front line. Such a tracking radar will have a high horizon - probably a few hundred feet, but it will catch any PGM drops from a safe altitude above 20K feet. If you have bunkers hardened against direct artillery strikes (btw, this is not simple, a direct 152mm artillery hit packs a very big punch), and you are denying airspace use above even a thousand feet, you force the attacker into ground attack. At this point, your bunkers haven't been taken out and you still have deadly MANPADS - so basically the third dimension is gone without even achieving air superiority.

Under such circumstances, what can you do? All you have left with are cruise missiles to take out the bunkers. This will be highly accurate, but not cheap and you will need a lot of them. The bunkers have to be eliminated for any attempt to succeed. As I said, your defenses are very formidable

As for the staging areas being discovered, the attacker has to mount his attack in numbers small enough to not require large visible staging areas, else the first reconnaisance flight will find it. A larger staging area can be much further back to exploit a breakthrough, in which case this has to be done with fast moving mobile forces. Also, any attempt on the bund itself can only be made after the first layer of emplacements covering it have been eliminated. There will be trench systems, but troops in them can be made to lay low with artillery, if the bunkers that provide cover are eliminated. You will need relatively unfettered access to ford the bund for your breakthrough.

Cheers
aharam

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 02:30

Shiv, if it is OK, can I play the Red Force Commander here? I would also want to describe the system geography and other obstacles plus force levels in a more detailed manner. Once, the responses come in, I can provide my comments on the same.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2011 05:38

rohitvats wrote:Shiv, if it is OK, can I play the Red Force Commander here? I would also want to describe the system geography and other obstacles plus force levels in a more detailed manner. Once, the responses come in, I can provide my comments on the same.

rohit welcome. Go ahead. I try but my own knowledge extends only so far so anyone else who pitches in would be great.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2011 05:45

Badar wrote:Shiv,

LGBs to collapse the bunds? I wouldn't be too sure it would work. Dropping the bomb bang on top the bund wont help you much, it has to hit it on the side just so.

Actually what I had in mind was something like this.
31 second video of 5000 pound bunker buster. Need not be this deadly but..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh6tCaH1bOY

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Dec 2011 07:17

aharam, Those Pak bunkers along Ichogil canal are built to US Army Corps of Engineer standards. In other words to take a hit from their own largest caliber guns ie 155mm shell hit. in SoKo they are designed to take 16 inch shell hits.
The way out is to put a guidance-wing kit on the 120 kg OFB bomb body with armor piercing casing. Something like I-2000 light casing.

Do we have regimental histories of the 1965 war accounts?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2011 08:07

we need remote control bomb disposal type tracked vehicles to crawl forward and lay demolition charges intelligently while providing LLTV coverage. these must be capable of floating across canals, climbing up steep 70' slopes and coming back quietly. thats the only way out to avoid human exposure.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2011 08:39

I present some pics of paki bunkers near lahore
bunker near BRB canal : http://www.hamaraquetta.com/images/gall ... 739470.JPG
another one: http://www.hamaraquetta.com/images/gall ... 269397.JPG
mortar post: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/815/50580468.jpg/ - with dried leaves on the net it will be almost invisible yet spew fire smokelessly through hole in middle - crafty idea
x-crossing trenches: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/50580467.jpg/
one more: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/50580448.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/50580465.jpg/ - raised berm infront indicates thats the shooting position, while people crawl back down into the trench if subjected to heavy direct or indirect fire.

none of these look very tfta to me. perhaps the command and hospital bunkers in back of the frontal bunkers are much better built. though with heavy earth and rock layer as cover they might easily withstand tank or artillery hits, heavier bunker buster or FAE munitions could do damage. combat bulldozers or plough tanks working with flamethrower teams might be able to seal their openings with earth in close combat.

none of these are Eben Emael std to be sure. if someone has pix of the DMZ fortifications in Soko pls post them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2011 08:59

The thing about "fixed defences" is that they are like the Maginot line of France, begging to be bypassed or outflanked. If you can't outflank from the sides, outflank from above.

I would have thought that a careful UAV/satellite surveillance of fixed defences for moths before an assault followed by accurate bombardment of individual bunkers would be a good prelude to sending air borne forces to occupy the defenders while the canal is bridged.

It static defences could be accurately GPS mapped and hitting them stars on a foggy early morning it would be good. But I don't know it if is feasible.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Dec 2011 10:46

BRB Canal = Bambansala Ravi Bedian Canal = Ichhogil Canal

About 70 miles long. Runs North- South from Ravi to Sutlej. Ninty to one hundred and forty feet wide and about 15 feet deep moat.

Data from 'My years with IAF' by ACM PC Lal.
page 129 and 130

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2011 10:46

another angle is burrowing under the ground. if you look at the first few mins of "cold mountain" movie the bluecoats tunnel under the greycoat trenchlines, excavate a huge cavern filled with explosive and cook that off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7OQIn7Yuvc

with good GPS guided small weapons, static defences on exposed ground are kind of useless against khan airpower - you got to drag him into the prospect of a forest and ravine fight (serbia), mountain fight (af), urban IED war (iraq/pak) or jungle fight (vietnam) for khan's sensor superiority to be degraded and battle to be more even. still, the vietcong did use a huge network of small tunnels below ground both as comms networks and as rest and staging posts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2011 11:54

here is one way to survive from B52 and blastings by pack howitzers - go tribal, go underground, go minimal and post a sentry at the entrance with a gun and a long knife.

Chi Chi tunnels @ near ho chi minh city..some 250 miles of tunnels were dug

http://www.viet-tourism.com/wp-content/ ... unnels.jpg

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/be ... attraction
just take a look at the punji traps with fire hardened bamboo sticks pointing up.

I doubt any other army could find volunteer units to go in there and fight...certainly not any meatfed large bodied type...one has to be lean and rice n fish type to move in there

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 14 Dec 2011 12:30

shiv wrote:
Badar wrote:Shiv,

LGBs to collapse the bunds? I wouldn't be too sure it would work. Dropping the bomb bang on top the bund wont help you much, it has to hit it on the side just so.
Actually what I had in mind was something like this.
31 second video of 5000 pound bunker buster. Need not be this deadly but..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh6tCaH1bOY

Those bombs are designed to penetrate earthworks and explode and destroy the material inside the cavity those earthworks are protecting. And they were surprisingly good at it, as we found out in the Kuwait War. But are these of any use whatsoever for moving large masses of earth aside or they just scramble up the earth? I don't want a random crater, but fordable gap in the height. I am guessing that it probably wont work unless you can hit the side of the bund wall, just above the waterline.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 14 Dec 2011 13:35

GD, you don't have to go so far back as the American civil war or the Vietnam war for amazing tunneling and sapping operations. Just look at North Korea today.

That being said, any major fortification line constructed at leisure in peace time that only includes arms and protection is asking for it. These units will have more than their fair share of reconnaissance and surveillance assets. If you expect a lot of fog in the area you have to defend why don't you have a cheap, man-packable, disposable battlefield surveillance radars?

Even BEL makes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEL_Battle ... ance_Radar all neatly integrated with a EO sensor for target confirmation. Russia, China, Israel et al make a ton of these, some like SpotterRF are so small you could conceivably issue them on Platoon basis.

If you have night-fighting disadvantage, then don't grope in the dark, negate the advantage by issuing small 50mm mortars to platoons to light up the sky with light/IR flares.

Why aren't the recon troops attached to the defenders not equipped with sesmic and sonic observation devices? Not only will they give a little advance warning about the the approach of thundering armored formations but also warn about the digging and scratching of any sappers.

If the bunkers and strongpoints in direct line of sight are being hammered with ATGMs then check your range charts and hose the suspected ingress point with HMG/GMG/Mortars held well behind using indirect fire mode.

There is always a solution to every problem and a counter to every solution - IF you have the money and the foresight. If GD's ten thousand immortals come charging in on 10,000 rhinos, then counter them by seeding the canal with fricking sharks with frickin lasers beams on their heads.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 14 Dec 2011 14:18

Badar wrote: Those bombs are designed to penetrate earthworks and explode and destroy the material inside the cavity those earthworks are protecting. And they were surprisingly good at it, as we found out in the Kuwait War. But are these of any use whatsoever for moving large masses of earth aside or they just scramble up the earth? I don't want a random crater, but fordable gap in the height. I am guessing that it probably wont work unless you can hit the side of the bund wall, just above the waterline.

Badar, I think it would be better to hit the earthworks below the water line. The reason being, that if we hit with a 5000lb bomb above then as you meantioned a crater is is created and earth scrambled around. However, how about using ammunitions similar to the runway penetration bombs like Durandal. Once 5-6 such ammunition hits 1-2 ms below the water line, at a single section of roughly 7-10m width, the foundations of these bunds are hurt real bad and the whole structure would move up and have loose soil. This loose soil would be carved out by the water, albeit water would take some time to do its work, however if we can locally improve the water speed, by using pumps etc. then the foundation would be eroded away faster. The important thing to note is that this can take anything from 1-2 days to accomplish. Hence what can be done is hit the bund at more than 50-60 places and then let the enemy guess from where you are going to break in. However this has an issue, in that it would work well, if the overall height of the enemy side is higher, and water does flow out and cause flood. Then its a no go.

Another method would be to hit with bombs above water line, on the far side, that is on the walls facing the enemy. Thus all earth would be strewn into the water.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2011 15:45

A canal leaking water can create slush that bogs tanks down. In fact it occurs to me that having a raised canal with a 10 foot climb up to water level and a 20 foot drop onto a ditch beyond that would pose an even worse problem. Break the bund on your side and you are flooding yourself. Or break the bund on the other side and flood the ditch and land beyond if that over flows.

I guess many of you may have seen my Asal Uttar video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHSVJNNsQ4U

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 16:55

Ok. With due permission from Doctor Sahib, let me rephrase the problem for you.

A. Background - The balloon has gone up between Red Land and Blue Land countries. Now, Red Land is a smaller nation with lesser number of resources when it comes to its services. Still, it has built a formidable army for the nation of its size. It follows a doctrine of riposte – that is, it will counter the offensive of Blue Land forces with its own counter-offensives at a place and timing of its choosing. However, given the need to conserve resources and establish reserves for counter-offensive, where ever possible, it relies heavily on man-made structures to impede the offensive of Blue Land forces.

B. Objective – Blue Land Forces (BLF) understand that time is of critical factor and they need to achieve the most spectacular results in the shortest time possible. With this in mind, the BLF have zeroed on Zariwalan Gap. The gap lies 10kms from the International Border (IB).

A mountain ridge runs parallel to the international border between the two countries in the central sector. The depth of the ridge from the IB ranges from 6kms – 15kms. The length of the ridge is 100kms in North-South direction with average width of 3kms. Average elevation of the ridge is 200meters or 600feet. The ridge has gaps along its length which allow for east-west movement of men and material. The Ridge covers the eastern flank of Red Land in the Central Sector and consequently, all the important towns and commercial centers of Red Land are towards west of the Ridge. The main lines of communication (rail and roads) also lie towards west of the ridge.

Zariwalan is an important city towards west of the Ridge situated at a distance of 15kms from it. It is a major road and rail head. The Motorway-1 or MW-1, which is one of the main North-South trunks of the Red Land, runs along the city. Zariwalan can be approached through the Zariwalan Gap in the Ridge through a wide 4 lane highway.

By capturing Zariwalan, the BLF can unhinge the RLF defenses. BLF can move in either north or south direction and threaten the rear section of RL Forces in Northern and Southern Sectors. The ridge will protect the eastern flank of BLF once they move south or north from Zariwalan Town. By intercepting the MW-1, BLF will also disrupt the North-South connectivity between important towns. This is also likely to have serious impact on the morale of the RLF.
With this objective in mind, the BLF intend to capture the Zariwalan Gap and move towards the Zariwalan City.

C. The Setting – The Red Land Forces fully comprehend the strategic importance of the Zariwalan Gap and have taken appropriate measures to safeguard it. The measures consist of adequate number of troops and formidable array of man-made defenses. The details of the same are given below:

The indicative layout of the defenses is as follows:

+++++++++++++++++Zariwalan Gap - 2.5kms wide +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Distance between Canal and Ridge - 6.5kms

___________________________________________________________________________________

CANAL
___________________________________________________________________________________

Distance between Canal and DCB - 3kms

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DCB
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Distance between DCB and IB - 500mtrs

_____________________________________________________________________________________
International Border

D. Terrain - the Terrain is flat and conducive to mechanized warfare and movement.

E. Features of the defense works –

1. DCB (Ditch-cum-Bund) – this feature runs parallel to the border and hence, you cannot outflank the Red Force. The bund-to-bund width is 80feet while the main water body is 70 feet. There are passages for vehicles and men to facilitate movement between IB and areas in the rear.

The following link shows DCB on India-Pakistan border on Indian side:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=31.5023304&lo ... 17&l=0&m=h

As you can see, it shadows the border and runs in its entire length.

The following link shows how a DCB is organized: http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AB772E/AB772E56.gif

I’ve bunkers as well as observation posts on both sides of the DCB. While those on eastern bank are more for OP purpose, the ones on western bank have been constructed with the purpose of holding the enemy and delaying this movement. I’ve machine gun pill-boxes with inter—locking arc of fire. There are pre-prepared firing positions for ATGM and RPG teams. On west bank of DCB, the bunkers are interconnected through full height trenches and allow for easy and safe movement of men and material. The bunkers and pill-boxes have been constructed to withstand direct 155mm caliber hits.

The area between the IB and eastern bank of DCB has been mined.

2. Canal – The canal runs parallel to the DCB at a distance of 3kms from it. It is 125 feet wide, 30 feet deep, with a depth of 20 feet of fast flowing water. Again, west bank of the canal has bunkers and fortifications and pill-boxes with inter-locking arc of fire and observation. These fixed defenses are of higher quality of construction as compared to those on DCB. There are bridges on the Canal to allow movement in east-west direction. However, the same have been rigged with explosives and will be blow up during advance of the enemy.

The area between DCB and Canal has been mined with safe passages known to the RLF. In addition to these, the RLF can flood the area between DCB and Canal to bog down the mechanized elements of the BLF.

3. The Ridge – the Ridge has Observation Towers to keep watch on the enemy movement in the surrounding areas. It also houses MANPAD Teams to tackle report any low –level strike aircraft ingress into Red Land and tackle air-assault threats.

F.Other Points –

a.The main rail and road heads opposite to this sector in Blue Land are known and mapped. So, the Red Land forces have war-gamed the likely axis of advance and the defenses have been suitably sited.

b.The Red Land strategy is to hold the DCB with the intention of delaying the advance of BLF. The main line of defense has been organized along the canal.

c.The RLF Sector HQ/Brigade HQ is suitably sited using the features of the Ridge to provide cover and protection.

d.RLF Reserves are located 60kms south of the Zariwalan City to west of the Ridge and presently committed to some other tasks. They can reinforce the sector in 48hrs from the time the requirement is given. However, this would mean that RLF strike will have to be called off mid-way.

e.Artillery guns are located west of the Ridge.

g.The RLF forces can either reinforce the Zariwalan Gap Sector east of Zariwalan Gap or decide to resist BLF in the Gap itself.

G.Orbat – Red Land Forces

a.Infantry Bdex1
i.Infantry Battalions x 3
ii.Armored Regiment x 1 – 45 Tanks
iii.Light Anti-Tank Battalion x 1 – 48 ATGM launchers
iv. Medium Gun Regiments x 2 – 36 guns

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2011 18:05

BLF Orbat - Blue land forces
a. 1 x infantry brigade (trucks) with usual mortars, MMG, Milan, Shipon, Cgustaf
b. 1 x mechanised infantry brigade (BMP2 upg for night fighting)
c. 1 x armour regiment (55 Arjun mk2)
d. 1 x namica unit attached to infantry brigade in support (6 vehicles)
e. 1 x composite artillery wing of 10 105mm IFG and 10 FH77 guns and BEL-WLR radars
f. 1 x pinaka unit of 6 launchers, 1 x grad unit of 6 launchers
g. 5 LCH gunships available on call
h. 3 observation helis and 3 searcher uav available on call
i. 1 para cdo batallion and Mi17 airlift available on call
h. engineers and signals units reinforcements from other units under same corps
j. a samyukta unit for local ELINT and jamming
k. limited number of flat bottom boats and pontoon bridgelayers for canal crossing
l. 1 air defence unit of Tunguska vehicles and SA16 shooters with their own radar

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2011 18:11

in my opinion with the massive defences erected by RedLand, its best to capture the area of the canal and use charges to blow the canal banks on west side to flood the area with gravity or pumps and flush the reds out of their trench lines and make the whole ground soggy and impassable. once their fixed assets like tanks and arty are rendered immobile, locate and pound them with indirect fire.

finally land light arty and para cdo and infantry units behind them and secure an area large enough for a more massive helicopter airlift.

by this time the trapped pocket will either surrender or slink away and engineers can lay matting to allow our mech forces to cross, join their comrades astride the road and proceed on.

a risky gambit but better chances than a costly stalemate imo.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 14 Dec 2011 19:04

Since the Zariwalan seems to be one of the lynchpins of the RLF defenses, I presume the assault and defense in this sector is of Army or Theater level significance for both sides? with an direct implication on support and resources available?

Looking at the formidable defenses I am tempted to suggest that one do nothing more than pull up a loudspeaker van and boom out "Red-Blue bhai bhai. Ye zameen hamara hai, tum usko chod do".

Seriously I have some leading questions:

Can one assume that the season is conducive to war, i.e. no sudden torrential rains expected, bund is not brumming to the top with rapid flood waters etc etc?

Is the water level in the canal and bund high enough that a breach in them will partially or fully flood the land on either side? Or the terrain is such that other gullys and culverts will mostly rapidly drain it away? I assume that this is fertile agricultural land with fields/drains etc in it.

How are the lateral lines of communications behind the bund? behind the canal? behind the ridge? Do they allow concealed lateral movement of infantry? what about armor?

Any chance of an eOrbat? Do these formations have sensor and recon capabilities significantly better than general line formations or their size?

Are there any significant civilian population centers anywhere in the battlearea? Has there been sufficient time for the farms and villages on both sides to be evacuated?

What is the political situation? How long can the war be politically supported? viz can Blue afford a conservative, loss limiting slow offensive or is Shiv's 48 hours constraint still enforced?

What are the reinforcements that can be commited by red, intermediate to what the brigade itself has and unleashing the RedReserveNorth? How much and when?

How is the air situation? Contested? Can I discount Cobras popping up from behind the rigde and peppering me with TOWs or is that a significant concern.

Am I constrained to NBC dispersal or can I disregard that factor?

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 14 Dec 2011 19:30

Singha wrote:BLF Orbat - Blue land forces

I assume the following is only the breakout forces.

a. 1 x infantry brigade (trucks) with usual mortars, MMG, Milan, Shipon, Cgustaf

ok

b. 1 x mechanised infantry brigade (BMP2 upg for night fighting)

What are you going to do with this brigade? What role does the mech brigade play?

c. 1 x armour regiment (55 Arjun mk2)

If you assume future weapons, then the Red will also feel free to claim a squadron of J-20 at his disposal. Lets stick to what can be had, inducted, trained, exercised before 2012.

d. 1 x namica unit attached to infantry brigade in support (6 vehicles)
e. 1 x composite artillery wing of 10 105mm IFG and 10 FH77 guns and BEL-WLR radars
f. 1 x pinaka unit of 6 launchers, 1 x grad unit of 6 launchers

Is that level artillery support sufficient? Wont you be out gunned be the reds who field two regiments of artillery.

g. 5 LCH gunships available on call

For how long? How many sorties have they promised per day? How do you propose to employ these?

h. 3 observation helis and 3 searcher uav available on call

i. 1 para cdo batallion and Mi17 airlift available on call

If these dudes are supposed to land anywhere near this battlefield, what is going to stop them being ironed out by a company of Red Tanks? What sort of casualties do you think these will take from those manpad teams in the ridges?

h. engineers and signals units reinforcements from other units under same corps
j. a samyukta unit for local ELINT and jamming

Wow! Didn't know about this. Assumed we still used the russian barrage boxes. Count on GD to know about all the cool toys.

k. limited number of flat bottom boats and pontoon bridgelayers for canal crossing
l. 1 air defence unit of Tunguska vehicles and SA16 shooters with their own radar

What about fixed wing air support? Artillery support from higher formations?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 20:30

Since the Zariwalan seems to be one of the lynchpins of the RLF defenses, I presume the assault and defense in this sector is of Army or Theater level significance for both sides? With a direct implication on support and resources available?

The Zariwalan has strategic importance and hence, even though the defenses seem impregnable, the BLF are attempting a breakthrough. A success in this sector will allow them to achieve strategic advantage in the shortest time possible. But do remember that that real objective is Zariwalan Gap and thence, the Zariwalan Town. So, forces will have to be tailored for not only taking this sector but also to counter any reinforcement from RLF. Given the importance of this town, RLF can be expected to react violently to any perceived success of BLF.

Can one assume that the season is conducive to war, i.e. no sudden torrential rains expected, bund is not brimming to the top with rapid flood waters etc?

Yes, the season is conducive for mechanized warfare and no untoward weather incident is expected.

Is the water level in the canal and bund high enough that a breach in them will partially or fully flood the land on either side? Or the terrain is such that other gullies and culverts will mostly rapidly drain it away? I assume that this is fertile agricultural land with fields/drains etc in it.

While the water works have been made for irrigation purposes, the defense aspect was implicit from day one of construction. So, yes, RLF can raise the water level in the canal and DCB and also flood the area to impair the mobility of the mechanized forces. And even though this is a agricultural land, the drainage cannot accommodate the sudden surge in water level and also, RLF need to hold out for 48hrs. However, this breaching can be undertaken only in one portion of the sector. Any breaching in the sector can allow BLF to cross canal in other sectors.

How are the lateral lines of communications behind the bund? Behind the canal? Behind the ridge? Do they allow concealed lateral movement of infantry? What about armor?

The lines of Communication (LoC) behind the bund are for use of forward elements of RLF Infantry. It has already been stated that the trenches are full height and allow for concealed movement of infantry.

Area behind the canal has well developed lateral lines of communication to allow for movement of heaviest vehicles. Area behind the Ridge is where the Red Land’s major communication axis is located. RLF has a regiment of armor in the area supporting the brigade.

Any chance of an eOrbat? Do these formations have sensor and recon capabilities significantly better than general line formations or their size?

Sensors and recon capabilities are on the same lines as available across the army.

Are there any significant civilian population centers anywhere in the battle area? Has there been sufficient time for the farms and villages on both sides to be evacuated?

Also, there are villages between DCB and Canal. Whether RLF will hold these or not, needs to be factored in by the BLF. The population has been evacuated.

What is the political situation? How long can the war be politically supported? viz can Blue afford a conservative, loss limiting slow offensive or is Shiv's 48 hours constraint still enforced?

You’ve 48hrs.

What are the reinforcements that can be committed by red, intermediate to what the brigade itself has and unleashing the Red Reserve North? How much and when?

RRN (good name) is presently engaged somewhere else but if push comes to shove, armored brigade + artillery brigade+ infantry division can be inducted. The place of induction will depend on the how far BLF progress. They can be inducted either west of Zariwalan Gap or east of it. In case they are inducted east of this, the armor will be used to counter-attack.

How is the air situation? Contested? Can I discount Cobras popping up from behind the rigde and peppering me with TOWs or is that a significant concern.

That is a wild card RLF have.

Am I constrained to NBC dispersal or can I disregard that factor?

NBC is not a factor.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2011 22:10

b. 1 x mechanised infantry brigade (BMP2 upg for night fighting)
What are you going to do with this brigade? What role does the mech brigade play?

once the canal breach floods the area into many 'islands' with marooned clumps of enemy field guns and armour to be observed via UAV and smashed with artillery and pinakas, our field engineers will cross the canal and first clear minefields using a few tanks and ploughs, then lay bridges or mats over the areas needed to afford one channel to the rear of the enemy where my para Cdo detachment was dropped by helicopter. they are mostly in blocking positions on the highway with a small unit observing any enemy breakout attempt from the soggy trap area. this BMP2 unit will be the first to go in and beef up the paras, while my tanks look to engage and demolish any enemy tanks still operating or lurking around.

c. 1 x armour regiment (55 Arjun mk2)
If you assume future weapons, then the Red will also feel free to claim a squadron of J-20 at his disposal. Lets stick to what can be had, inducted, trained, exercised before 2012.

alright then, arjun mk1 or T90 can be assumed.

d. 1 x namica unit attached to infantry brigade in support (6 vehicles)
e. 1 x composite artillery wing of 10 105mm IFG and 10 FH77 guns and BEL-WLR radars
f. 1 x pinaka unit of 6 launchers, 1 x grad unit of 6 launchers
Is that level artillery support sufficient? Wont you be out gunned be the reds who field two regiments of artillery.

I am not planning a general conventional assault over the canal, I just need a few accurate guns and MLRS cued by UAV, spotting helis and WLRs to silence anything that [1] targets my field engineers in phase1 [2] targets my BMP,tanks in phase2 breakout through enemy lines....my infantry etc will lie low and not be at threat from the enemy guns. my precious FH77 will be deployed in mobile shoot n scoot mode for safety.

we are not going to win this one through a slugfest, but by application of force only when its needed.

g. 5 LCH gunships available on call
For how long? How many sorties have they promised per day? How do you propose to employ these?

they will be there until the op is considered successful or declared a failure which is Hhour+48. in phase1 they will use their night vision to locate enemy strongpoints and armour , taking out whatever armour they can in long range night attacks only. in phase2 they will help my tanks deal with enemy tanks. they can also move fwd if needed to help the para Cdo unit deal with enemy reinforcements or a breakout attempt.

h. 3 observation helis and 3 searcher uav available on call

i. 1 para cdo batallion and Mi17 airlift available on call
If these dudes are supposed to land anywhere near this battlefield, what is going to stop them being ironed out by a company of Red Tanks? What sort of casualties do you think these will take from those manpad teams in the ridges?

my 5 LCH will protect them by sniping out the manpad teams or calling in grad fire on them. likewise whether with atgms or by directing arty on enemy tanks, these LCH will help the para Cdo's to "hold until relieved" in the words of the arnhem british commander.

h. engineers and signals units reinforcements from other units under same corps
j. a samyukta unit for local ELINT and jamming
Wow! Didn't know about this. Assumed we still used the russian barrage boxes. Count on GD to know about all the cool toys.

yes many samyukta are in IA hands over last few yrs now. system has 60+ types of "modules" for every imaginable EW function.

k. limited number of flat bottom boats and pontoon bridgelayers for canal crossing
l. 1 air defence unit of Tunguska vehicles and SA16 shooters with their own radar
What about fixed wing air support? Artillery support from higher formations?

if LCH or Samyukta can detect which 1-2 places are the enemy HQ bunkers, we can expect 2 x M2K with 2000lb FAE bombs to be made available to silence these. in case of the Para Cdo unit in imminent danger of being annihilated by heavy enemy forces, some Jaguars or Mig27 will be available from operational reserve as will fire missions from corps level FH77/Smerch unit and some WSI Dhruv...but these will be on serious need basis only.

I also propose to use a few small hovercraft of the type our CG uses in the phase1 at night to emerge from the canal breach into the soggy grasslands and fields and run around at high speed sowing FUD and dropping off teams of ATGM and spotters at appropriate places before disappearing back into the canal. if the CG is unwilling to give up theirs, then armoured tractors of the type punjab police used to chase the terrorists through the muddy fields can be used. if needed we can also lay a rubber pipe across the canal, release a couple 100 tons of petrol to float above the water and set it alight.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 14 Dec 2011 22:17

Few more questions Rohit sir.

1. What is the source of the water in the canal. Is it a dam from a river further north. If so its location viz-e-viz the gap in question.

2. You said "this breaching can be undertaken only in one portion of the sector. Any breaching in the sector can allow BLF to cross canal in other sectors." Does this mean that this breaching section is upstream the canal, hence once this section of the Canal is breached, the canal run's dry or has too low level of water, hence BLF can cross it without much difficulty. What is the strength of red forces in this section. Also does breaching in this section entails the entire area on Red's side gets flooded or the terrain leaves significant sections dry, through which men & machines can move.

3. How far are Red's air bases from this area. Does the town itself has a good air base.

4. The reinforcements of Red Forces, ie RRN. which are engaged further north, are how far from the Gap. Is the distance between RRN & the Gap significant enough. Are there gaps in the line, or is it a continous line. If there are gaps, are these gaps between the mountain & the IB. Do these gap sections too have the ditch cum bund system.

5. What are the defenses of Red forces along the flanks of the Gap. i.e, with in 20-50 kms on either side of the gap. Is the concentration of the Red forces more around the Gap and lesser as we move away from the gap. If so some details.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 23:10

Singha wrote:In my opinion with the massive defences erected by RedLand, its best to capture the area of the canal and use charges to blow the canal banks on west side to flood the area with gravity or pumps and flush the reds out of their trench lines and make the whole ground soggy and impassable. once their fixed assets like tanks and arty are rendered immobile, locate and pound them with indirect fire.

The above is fundamentally flawed - the objective of the BLF is to capture the Zariwalan Gap so that follow-on forces can pour through the gap and threaten the Zariwalan City. This will allow the BLF to unhinge the defense of RLF not only in central sector but threaten the flanks of RLF in Northern and Southern Sectors as well.

By flooding the area between west bank of Canal and the Ridge, you will make the acheivement of this objective immpossible. How will the BLF reach the Zariwalan Gap? Infact, this is something RLF may attempt if they feel BLF are in position to establish bridgehead across the Canal.

Finally land light arty and para cdo and infantry units behind them and secure an area large enough for a more massive helicopter airlift.

What will this acheive? They cannot mount any offensive against the Zariwalan Town? Infact, because BLF have flooded the area between Canal and Ridge, these forces are sitting ducks to any mechanized counter-attack by RLF. The flooding will ensure that no link-up can happen between air-assault troops and follow on forces.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 23:15

Singha wrote:BLF Orbat - Blue land forces
a. 1 x infantry brigade (trucks) with usual mortars, MMG, Milan, Shipon, Cgustaf
b. 1 x mechanised infantry brigade (BMP2 upg for night fighting)
c. 1 x armour regiment (55 Arjun mk2)
d. 1 x namica unit attached to infantry brigade in support (6 vehicles)
e. 1 x composite artillery wing of 10 105mm IFG and 10 FH77 guns and BEL-WLR radars
f. 1 x pinaka unit of 6 launchers, 1 x grad unit of 6 launchers
g. 5 LCH gunships available on call
h. 3 observation helis and 3 searcher uav available on call
i. 1 para cdo batallion and Mi17 airlift available on call
h. engineers and signals units reinforcements from other units under same corps
j. a samyukta unit for local ELINT and jamming
k. limited number of flat bottom boats and pontoon bridgelayers for canal crossing
l. 1 air defence unit of Tunguska vehicles and SA16 shooters with their own radar

As I said earlier, the axis of advance against the RLF Defenses are know and under obseration. And since you just decided to position ~8,000 men opposite RLF Sector, RLF Sector has been reinforced with Armored Regiment x 1 and have Artillery on call from the Corps Artillery Bde.

So, the new Orbat of Sector Z in Red Land is as follows:

a.Infantry Bdex1
i.Infantry Battalions x 3
ii.Armored Regiment x 2 – 90 Tanks
iii.Light Anti-Tank Battalion x 1 – 48 ATGM launchers
iv. Medium Gun Regiments x 2 – 36 guns
v. Corps Artillery Bde - 2 x Medium Regiments on priority fire.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 23:17

Gentlemen,

Rather than jump directly to the end-game, please follow a step-by-step approach. The defences are layered and need to tackled one at a time. Please put forth your actions plans for each stage. I'll try and reply as Red Land Commander.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2011 23:37

I think, smoking out the bunkers may be easier than blasting it out. But then getting an access to it either hitting the target at the right spot or sending a remotely operated vehicle that delivers the smoke is a challenge, to go undetected and quick. A subsonic bunker hole seeking cruise missile for such smoking mission could be awesome, that may not be easily detected.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 23:52

Singha wrote: once the canal breach floods the area into many 'islands' with marooned clumps of enemy field guns and armour to be observed via UAV and smashed with artillery and pinakas, our field engineers will cross the canal and first clear minefields using a few tanks and ploughs, then lay bridges or mats over the areas needed to afford one channel to the rear of the enemy where my para Cdo detachment was dropped by helicopter. they are mostly in blocking positions on the highway with a small unit observing any enemy breakout attempt from the soggy trap area. this BMP2 unit will be the first to go in and beef up the paras, while my tanks look to engage and demolish any enemy tanks still operating or lurking around. <SNIP>

I've already answered the above. It is fundamentally flawed.

Now, let me rain down on your parade (I love the evilness in this phrase) on other aspects.

First, against a well established and concrete defense line, you’ve inadequate amount of infantry, armor, engineers and artillery. Practically, everything is inadequate for the task.

You’re pitting one Infantry Bde against another and that too, which is behind well fortified concrete defensive work. If not 3:1 superiority in overall numbers, you’ll need to maintain 3:1 superiority at least on your axis of assault. But this means that you cannot have more than two axes of advance – and that too against the DCB itself. So, after casualties on the DCB, the depleted infantry force will have to go against a still superior defense work. Between DCB and Canal is another 3kms of open space. And RLF artillery will pick these infantry columns as they move towards the Canal.

Coming to armor, the RLF Armor will fire from well concealed and prepared positions. Plus, they would have alternate firing positions prepared in advance to cover the entire sector. In addition, both at DCB and Canal, the RLF ATGM Teams will take toll on the armor. The ratio of attacker to defender is again 1:1 which is hardly likely to make any impact.

In terms of artillery, against RLF compliments of 36 guns plus call-on artillery from Corps Artillery Brigade, you have only 20 guns and that too of mixed caliber. As I said in the scenario setting post, the bunkers and pill-boxes are capable of taking direct 155mm hits. 105mm guns are not going to cause the damage required to breach these defenses. Also, MRLS are area saturation weapons and not likely to be effective against concrete defenses.

As for use of UAV and WLR to pin-point the RLF Artillery, well, two can play the game. SATA Batteries are integral to arty brigades and you forget that RLF can bring down more volume courtesy the larger number of guns. And all of them are of 155mm Caliber (Medium Regiments).

Mi-35 does give you some advantage but please remember – RLF hold the ridges which are at an average elevation of 600 feet. So, not only can they spot the gunships but also rain down MANPADS on them.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 15 Dec 2011 00:35

rohitvat, Let me chew on this awhile.

I am having difficulty coming to grip with this problem. Shiv's original problem was a little simpler - forces available where assumed to be fairly limited. The larger the scale of engagement grows the lesser the willingness to try disco-stuff and stick to pure brahmin orthodoxy.

It seems to me that it is very likely that this might start of an battalion sized assault and snow-ball up into larger and large forces until corps are pulled into it. So why not start at the very top. Instead of a sneak attack, perhaps a full on frontal attack even if the enemy has an absolutely clear picture about what is happening? Begin the festivities with the artillery division itself clearly telegraphing intent to the enemy?

Some general questions pop-up: Why has IA never shown interest in TOS?

Shiv, lets consider an alternate game. You specify a unconcious and bleeding patient in an operating theater who has just been in an auto accident. You describe the surface symptoms - cranial and abdominal bleeding. We who are enthusiatic tv medical-drama watchers will now specify what diagostics to run (you provide the results) and then tell how we would operate to save the patient (you pass judgement). Can you image the ensuing comedy? I suppose all the people with service background lurking here are wating for comedic gold from us. That said making a fool of myself has never stopped me before

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2011 08:36

I will stand by my theory that the way to unhinge and break through layers of these cast iron DCB defenses is to stay light and move with less resources not more....the reward ratio is far more vs committing a entire corps into a prokhorovka type charge where 150 vehicles could be gutted in a day. if the flooded area is desired to be made less so, we can always use the pumps in reverse direction to move water back into the canal.
electronic and EO superiority must also be there as well as local air superiority.

I dont see why MLRS cannot make a mess of bunkers and open trenches when scattering 100s of bomblets . looking at the photos of Pak bunkers they wont stand up to even a 100kg bomb. and MLRS have multiple types of warheads....incl thermobaric these days and perhaps unitary HE. a salvo of 6 on a bunker complex could make a mess of things. anything dropping down into artillery and mortar pits with camo nets on top is also going to mission kill that piece atleast if not blow up stored ammo.

one cannot discount the effect of panic and loss of confidence on redland - the ridges have been scoured by LCHs who are prowling the dark shooting without being seen, the occasional M2K drops big FAE explosives, the whole area is a set of islands with flooded trenches and swamps in the rest, there is a force of unknown strength and intent in the rear protected by close covering artillery and gunships....if I were a normal redland trooper I'd keep my options open to slink away into the bush....esp if corps arty could be asked to deliver one massed Smerch barrage on my head.

my intent is a modified soviet OMG theory - sit behind the enemy and deny him reinforcements for a while resulting in loss of fighting capacity and morale leading to surrender or keep one channel open to let him retreat in a controlled direction.

once my engineers lay mats and stuff across soggy patches and more pontoon bridges, 1 division / day should be able to cross and reach the highway....even with a damaged remagen bridge across the rhine, within few days I think 10 american divisions had crossed over and fanned out, making the stay permanent.

as a soviet general used to thinking of 'reaching normandy in 2 weeks' I see these cast iron DCB networks as things to segment, island, slice and dice and convert into traps for the defenders who would have no option but to surrender, run or die under the boots of my 3rd echelon mop up/occupation forces and their embedded artillery (old pieces but ugly ones).

there shall be no repeat of the Zitadelle mistake of the wehrmacht since I have superior vertical assault capability, airpower, eOrbat and sensors.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Dec 2011 09:05

Badar wrote:
Shiv, lets consider an alternate game. You specify a unconcious and bleeding patient in an operating theater who has just been in an auto accident. You describe the surface symptoms - cranial and abdominal bleeding. We who are enthusiatic tv medical-drama watchers will now specify what diagostics to run (you provide the results) and then tell how we would operate to save the patient (you pass judgement). Can you image the ensuing comedy? I suppose all the people with service background lurking here are wating for comedic gold from us. That said making a fool of myself has never stopped me before

As is frequently the case Badar, there is an ulterior motive in pushing through with this even if it causes ROTFL or just irritation among those who know.

Let me illustrate with an example of two 5 year old kids arguing on my school bus a few decaes ago. I was 10 and was too mature for all that.

Kid 1: My father can bash your
Kid 2: My father will bring a car
K1: Mine will bring a bus
K2: mine will bring a lorry
K1: Mine will bring fire engine

BRF is an adult version of that. We list the specs of LCA versus JF-17, or Arjun vs Al Khalid and argue.

I wanted the average level of thinking to go beyond that into the next level - hat is individual detailed situations in which both people and hardware interact. There is the next higher level from here - the human factor. Maybe I won't go into too much detail now but will attempt to post a teaser that introduces the human factor as a further detail in addition to terrain, weather, hardware and logistics.

Rohit has actually thrown everyone off balance because he has brought in even more formidable detail. The way to go about it would be to break the problem down into individual parts. I need to get from point A to B - 100 meters away. How do I do that? We talk of battles over kilometers while the soldier has to actually advance meter by meter. So the level of detail is intricate and I was hoping that a few people like you and Aharam would catch on and jump in the "game"

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 15 Dec 2011 09:49

bmallick wrote:Few more questions Rohit sir.
1. What is the source of the water in the canal. Is it a dam from a river further north. If so its location viz-e-viz the gap in question.

2. You said "this breaching can be undertaken only in one portion of the sector. Any breaching in the sector can allow BLF to cross canal in other sectors." Does this mean that this breaching section is upstream the canal, hence once this section of the Canal is breached, the canal run's dry or has too low level of water, hence BLF can cross it without much difficulty. What is the strength of red forces in this section. Also does breaching in this section entails the entire area on Red's side gets flooded or the terrain leaves significant sections dry, through which men & machines can move.

3. How far are Red's air bases from this area. Does the town itself has a good air base.

4. The reinforcements of Red Forces, ie RRN. which are engaged further north, are how far from the Gap. Is the distance between RRN & the Gap significant enough. Are there gaps in the line, or is it a continous line. If there are gaps, are these gaps between the mountain & the IB. Do these gap sections too have the ditch cum bund system.

5. What are the defenses of Red forces along the flanks of the Gap. i.e, with in 20-50 kms on either side of the gap. Is the concentration of the Red forces more around the Gap and lesser as we move away from the gap. If so some details.

Rohit please provide answers to the above questions, posted earlier.

One minor nit-pick. In your first post of this scenario, the position os Red reserves was south of the city.

rohitvats wrote: "d.RLF Reserves are located 60kms south of the Zariwalan City to west of the Ridge and presently committed to some other tasks. They can reinforce the sector in 48hrs from the time the requirement is given. However, this would mean that RLF strike will have to be called off mid-way."
[/qoute]
In the subsequent posts, this reserve has become "Red Reserve North (RRN)". Please sort out this confusion about the location of the reserve.

Meanwhile, is the rough map below a good depiction of the area.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/rbsimu.jpg/

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Dec 2011 10:36

General rule of thumb is

if company-sized defense -> attackers need at least a battalion-size strength
if battallion-sized defense -> requires brigade sized attackers
if brigade-sized defense -> requires division sized attackers

In rohit's scenario, it's a brigade sized defense that has support from terrain, armor, and artillery. Any attacking force would need to be at least a division size with heavy armor and mechanized infantry supported by artillery brigade, CAS, combat engineers.

Also, another couple of divisions would need to hold the Northern and Southern forces in place to stop reinforcements to the gap.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2011 11:27

I was reading up on the wehrmacht invasion of holland to gain clues as to their strategy because holland has a lot of canals large and small and a stout army of defenders.
what seems to me is we cannot see this battle in isolation - whether it be 2.5km or 100km, its a fundamental problem with this "sandbox" model because in the course of 48 hrs , 100s of other events in other sectors might impact this battle ... reinforcements , airpower, artillery missions we are talking of could be redirected elsewhere; the area could simply be considered not vital and the enemy stage a quick retreat only to pound blueland forces as they move fwd to occupy the area etc. perhaps in command HQ "games" the generals play on maps such external factors are "injected" by the Umpires same way a flight instructor simulates various flaws for a test pilot.

anyway the germans seem to suffered some heavy losses in transport planes and paras, but launched massive ops to take over airstrips and vital bridges using paras , such that prolonged DCB slogging was not necessary...the speed of advance was enough to capture atleast few crossing points intact and move along.

Ju87 stukas used in masses for precision strike.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/ge ... olland.htm
a nice detailed account of the op
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Netherlands
(note the case where a company strength surprise infiltration lead by a opportunistic german officer spread panic and led to abandonment of a entire defence line)

While the situation in the south was becoming critical, in the east the Germans made a first successful effort in dislodging the Dutch defenders on the Grebbeberg. After preparatory artillery bombardment in the morning, at around noon a battalion of Der Fuehrer attacked an eight hundred metres wide sector of the main line, occupied by a Dutch company.[172] Exploiting the many dead angles in the Dutch field of fire, it soon breached the Dutch positions, which had little depth.[173] A second German battalion then expanded the breach to the north. Dutch artillery, though equal in strength to the German, failed to bring sufficient fire on the enemy concentration of infantry, largely limiting itself to interdiction. Eight hundred metres to the west was a Stop Line, a continuous trench system from which the defenders were supposed to wage an active defence, staging local counterattacks. However, due to a lack of numbers, training, and heavy weapons the attacks failed against the well-trained SS troops. By the evening the Germans had brought the heavily forested area between the two lines under their control.[174] Spotting a weak point, one of the SS battalion commanders, Obersturmbannführer Hilmar Wäckerle, suddenly attacked with a hastily assembled force of about company strength. In a, for this battle, rare instance of infiltration tactics he broke through the Stop Line, quickly advancing a mile to the west until being halted by a fall-back line along the Rhenen railroad. The breakthrough caused a panic among the defenders, who largely abandoned the Stop Line at this point; but as Wäckerle had had no time to coordinate his action with other units, it was not further exploited. Order was restored at the Stop Line and the SS company became isolated and surrounded.[175] The earlier general German advance later caused the main line to be abandoned for over two miles to the north because the troops there feared an attack from behind.[173]

It had been well understood by the Dutch that the forces occupying the Grebbe Line would not be sufficiently strong to repel all attacks by themselves; they were intended to delay an offensive long enough for reserves to reinforce them. Due to the failure the previous day to understand that the German main assault was imminent however, these reserves would not arrive in time to intervene in the fight at the defence zone between the two trench systems. This was all the more serious as the Stop Line had no depth and lacked large shelters to accommodate enough troops to stage a strong frontal counterattack. In the late evening it was decided to execute a flank attack from the north the next day.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2011 13:04

to support armchair types, khan army has many 100s declassified field manuals online
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... Id-1024526
above is on breaching ops. has a nice table showing the expected timelines of laying smoke, moving the covering and assault force in position and then breaching force does its job

from: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... y/army/fm/
there is one on "gap crossing ops" which I didnt get time to check out.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2011 13:32

bmallick wrote:
1. What is the source of the water in the canal. Is it a dam from a river further north. If so its location viz-e-viz the gap in question.

The headworks of the canal are situated further north and fall well with-in the Red Land territory. So, any play against the headworks is not possible

2. You said "this breaching can be undertaken only in one portion of the sector. Any breaching in the sector can allow BLF to cross canal in other sectors." Does this mean that this breaching section is upstream the canal, hence once this section of the Canal is breached, the canal run's dry or has too low level of water, hence BLF can cross it without much difficulty. What is the strength of red forces in this section. Also does breaching in this section entails the entire area on Red's side gets flooded or the terrain leaves significant sections dry, through which men & machines can move.

What I meant was that breaching of the canal in Z Sector (this area) will lead to lowering of water level in other areas of the canal downstream. So, RLF have to be cautious of that. Because flooding of own land is part of the strategy of RLF - if they do it here, they cannot do it else where. However, this does not mean that crossing becomes easy. Reason - The forces to oppose crossing and establishment of briidgehead are there and, given the steep gradient of canal walls, the ideal situation is that there should be water in the canal. The BLF BMP-2 ICV can then cross/swim over on their own power. Lack of water means that a bridge will surely have to be established and that too, rigid type and not pontoon ones. So, that adds to the complexity of the BLF

3. How far are Red's air bases from this area. Does the town itself has a good air base.
Air cover is available. Although, it will be limited in the initial stages

4. The reinforcements of Red Forces, ie RRN. which are engaged further north, are how far from the Gap. Is the distance between RRN & the Gap significant enough. Are there gaps in the line, or is it a continous line. If there are gaps, are these gaps between the mountain & the IB. Do these gap sections too have the ditch cum bund system.
No DCB in the gaps. However, retreating forces have prepared positions on the ridhe and along side the gap. Your map is accurate as far as the position of RRS is concerned

5. What are the defenses of Red forces along the flanks of the Gap. i.e, with in 20-50 kms on either side of the gap. Is the concentration of the Red forces more around the Gap and lesser as we move away from the gap. If so some details.

I have deliberately left out the RLF forces on either side of the Z sector. Let us assume that reserves only from RRS are avaiable. However, BLF cannot outflank Z Sector by crossing up north or down south and then attacking the flanks of Z-Sector.

Rohit please provide answers to the above questions, posted earlier.

One minor nit-pick. In your first post of this scenario, the position os Red reserves was south of the city.

rohitvats wrote: "d.RLF Reserves are located 60kms south of the Zariwalan City to west of the Ridge and presently committed to some other tasks. They can reinforce the sector in 48hrs from the time the requirement is given. However, this would mean that RLF strike will have to be called off mid-way."
[/qoute]
In the subsequent posts, this reserve has become "Red Reserve North (RRN)". Please sort out this confusion about the location of the reserve.

It is RRS
Meanwhile, is the rough map below a good depiction of the area.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/rbsimu.jpg/

That is excellent map.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2011 13:55

Please break down the whole scenario into stages. Like Stage 1 - breaching the DCB. Stage 2 - capturing the east bank of Canal. Stage 3 - establishing a bridgehead over the canal. Stage 4 - dash for Zariwalan Gap.

You also need to mention the timeframe for acheiving the above. The kind of forces you're likely to face at each stage is given in the introduction post. Also, please remember you're ultimate objective.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 15 Dec 2011 15:15

Is there a possibility that blue by passes Zarianwala and isolate it's defenses? In today's world it seems unlikely to attack and take over major population center, with uncooperative mobs. Any strategy has to look towards isolation of such areas.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2011 16:46

Sri wrote:Is there a possibility that blue by passes Zarianwala and isolate it's defenses? In today's world it seems unlikely to attack and take over major population center, with uncooperative mobs. Any strategy has to look towards isolation of such areas.

The geography is not conducive to bypass the town. As I laid out earlier, the Ridge extends to 50kms on either direction from Zariwalan Gap and hence, BLF cannot approach Zariwalan Town from any other direction. The only options are to win RL territory where the Ridge ends (either north or south) and then turn north/south towards Zariwalan.

But above makes no sense - (a) the importance of Zariwalan City is that it is the hub of north-south communication. So, for taking maximum benefit, it needs to be taken to bisect the RL and threaten the flanks of RLF in north or south of city. (b) BLF forces will first need to take on RLF in North/South, smash them and then move 50kms either way through enemy territory. This is simply not feasible.