Conduct your own war

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2011 19:56

Folks I've had this idea for a thread for some time now - I don't know if it will work. The idea is, as usual to be entertained while learning, but also to do the usual things we do on the forum - that is to argue, tell the other guy he is wrong and that he is talking bullshit and say why you know better. And best of all - it is something we know nothing about, have zero personal or practical experience and will never do in our lives - i.e direct and conduct a war. That makes us all experts.

So what am I asking for that is different from the rest of the topics.

Well we are primarily focused with hardware. We blindly admire the humans using the hardware and then promptly forget about him while we concentrate on the hardware and say "OK - JF-17 is far better than F-22 and so you have 200 JF-17s versus 100 F-22s and those Raptors will get shot out of he sky for the loss of 4 JF-17s (as per the report of exercise "Palishmijile 2014") and we have total air superiority.

But my reading tells me that war is about detail and excruciating detail about a thousand individual battles. And the overall effect of winning or losing those individual battles leads to some sort of overall conclusion in the war. the leader who has the best information about most of those individual battles and is able to make arrangements to ensure that the men involved in each of those individual battles have the leadership, initiative and back up they need for unexpected and expected hurdles is the leader who is going to win the war.

In other words I am hoping that we can learn about the excruciating detail of any one or two individual battles - the number of men, the terrain, the time, the weather and what they need to do and what opposition they face. It is like dividing the above example of 200 JF-17 vs 100 F-22s into 150 separate dogfights and describing each of those in detail. 150 reports where 100 F-22s were shot down describes the "air war" to gain air supremacy.

The amount of detail for each small battle which forms 1/10,000th of the whole war can be very detailed and is something we don't even think about on here. Like a platoon of men pinned down needing to silence a heavy machine gun emplacement which is preventing anyone from moving forward. They want mortar support to hit that gun, but the radio has taken a direct hit. So a man has to run back and pass the information. All sorts of things can happen. That man can be killed, or (I have read this) the man can be caught by a senior officer and accused of running from battle who does not believe his "need mortar support" cock and bull story. So battles are about chance. We cannot predict chance events but we can create chance events for other forum people who are making battle plans just to screw them and spite them and stop their plan from succeeding.

For example Bala Vignesh makes a detailed battle plan and then I suddenly come up and say "Sorry I just killed your leader by a chance rock falling from the sky" creating more argument on the thread

Technically Bala should have a back up plan in case the first one fails because some fellow like me produces a rock falling from the sky. Of course Bala Vignesh can argue back an say "Balls. How can a rock appear from the sky. Come up with a more convincing story"

But the idea of the thread is to let your imagination run wild with the caveat that anyone is allowed to screw you and your battle plans by counter plans of their own, becoming enemy for one post and ally for the next post.

I don't know if this will work, but thought it might be a fun thread that mixes up knowledge and experience of a few with the imagination and reading of many with the freedom to argue with anyone and know his plans off.

And anyone, at any time can come up with a battle scenario that someone else has to beat. For the heck of it I wil come up with one and I ask others to cook up their own forces and plans. it can range from taking a hill feature to capturing Kraachi. Or New York if you like. The details are important. No details. No scope to argue and screw the other guy. No fun.

And of course is anyone wants to bring in a real battle scenario that he has read about - that is fine. Should make good reading.

I will start by cooking up a scenario in a separate post and ask others to blow that scenario away - or at least say how they will do that. I will of course reserve the right to cook up things as time passes depending on what responses others may make. Let's see if we can get some fun and information out of this.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 11 Dec 2011 20:08

^^^
Excellent idea Shiv. May I suggest that first we come up some basic ground rules on what constitutes an acceptable way of killing a mission? For example, one cannot conjure up torrential downpours in Mumbai leading to jamming of roads in middle of April since thats not a valid weather pattern (yes a war wont happen in Mumbai but I am giving an example). Or, invoking aliens. Or coming up with an division worth of reinforcements undetected etc etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2011 20:10

Ok let me post a scenario. There is a war going on. resources liek air support are in short supply because they are needed everywhere. In this theater there is a 10 km stip of flat land which is great for grabbing your enemy's territory. that 10 kn strip has mountains on wither side - so if you go in you have to use this 10 km strip of land.

Problem is that your adversary knows that you might attack from there and enter into the flat terrain beyond. he has built a deep canal right across that 10 km strip. If your vehicles enter the canal to cross - the far side of the canal had a bund that appears like a 10 foot wall from the canal. You have to climb that wall from the canal and then descend 10 feet on the other side.

And on the other side your adversary has bunkers that can resist tank shells containing machine gun emplacements and antitank weaponry. Further beyond there is artillery waiting to be called upon to hit your forces. There is anti-aircraft defence in the form of Manpads. Air support to the enemy is possible, but not certain given the high demand war scenario. Th enemy is estimated to have about 1000 to 2000 men in this 10 km long area.

Your job is to make a breakthrough across the canal and smash the defences allowing you access to a highway where you can advance 50 km into enemy territory. What are you going to do about it. note that the enemy has reserves which can join up in support to oppose your attack in 48 hours. You have 48 hours. It is winter. It gets dark by 6 PM and is still dark/foggy at 7 AM .

I have decide that you ain't gonna get through no matter what. What do you propose to do? Loser.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2011 20:11

Tanaji wrote:^^^
Excellent idea Shiv. May I suggest that first we come up some basic ground rules on what constitutes an acceptable way of killing a mission? For example, one cannot conjure up torrential downpours in Mumbai leading to jamming of roads in middle of April since thats not a valid weather pattern (yes a war wont happen in Mumbai but I am giving an example). Or, invoking aliens. Or coming up with an division worth of reinforcements undetected etc etc.

Tanaji the person who comes up with unacceptable things will be made to commit soosai by observers who must object.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 11 Dec 2011 22:28

This thread is about to become piskology central :mrgreen;

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 11 Dec 2011 22:44

I am not sure if this series was ever shown in India. Can the same be done here for our needs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Commanders

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4jAy_0GVgk

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Dec 2011 22:47

I can foresee quite a few incidents of lathi charge by admins and possible bans too

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Dec 2011 22:50

Sometime back(when I was not on BR), I read possible military scenarios here and wondered whether an idea like this can work. I didnt think it would work unless clear teams are earmarked and take up roles to play. That is play specific roles. Like one side is Indian and the other side paki or cheeni. With this, the two sides can conduct their war by maneuvering the forces by using the known details of the features and liabilities of the role that they are playing. Even in this scenario, it seemed difficult to make the thread work. Because it would need knowledgeable and enthusiastic participants.

Anyway, kudos to Shiv for starting this thread. Lets see whether this idea can work...

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Dec 2011 22:54

Umm, let me take the first bait and suggest bombardment of enemy positions near canal with artillery and MBRL fire.

then what ? :-s

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Dec 2011 23:18

shiv wrote: For example Bala Vignesh makes a detailed battle plan and then I suddenly come up and say "Sorry I just killed your leader by a chance rock falling from the sky" creating more argument on the thread Technically Bala should have a back up plan in case the first one fails because some fellow like me produces a rock falling from the sky. Of course Bala Vignesh can argue back an say "Balls. How can a rock appear from the sky. Come up with a more convincing story"

Shiv sir
Why this Kolaveri???

Why single me out???

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Dec 2011 23:22

http://imageshack.us/f/268/mountainrd10kmrdcopy.jpg/

^I'm trying to post this image to show in the post from imageshack, but it's not showing never had this problem before.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2011 23:27

how about we decide on a a format ? post a problem scenario with as many details as available about ORBAT (opfor may or may not be available) and readers will try to post solutions.

someone like rohit is the best person to set the problem IMO.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Dec 2011 23:53

shiv wrote: Folks I've had this idea for a thread for some time now - I don't know if it will work. The idea is, as usual to be entertained while learning, but also to do the usual things we do on the forum - that is to argue, tell the other guy he is wrong and that he is talking bullshit and say why you know better. And best of all - it is something we know nothing about, have zero personal or practical experience and will never do in our lives - i.e direct and conduct a war. That makes us all experts.

Shiv. I think you are REALLY starting a REAL WAR. I am sure that some (or even most) of us may land in a real war if we all happen to be within a few feet of each other.

Looks like a god old free for all dog-fight. Count Me In !!

K

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Dec 2011 23:54

Ok, shiv sir, this would be attack strategy to cross the canal. I am making a few assumptions here:
1. I have a mech inf battalion along with a tank squadron and a engineering company with me.
2. My special operations and HUMINT has already carried out a recce of the location and i have the necessary information to carry out a PGM strike.
3. I have Pinaka II with PGM capability and extended range.
4. I have neutralized the combat effectiveness of the enemy forces on my side of canal.
I will first make an area saturation attack on that location using my Pinaka rockets and towed guns along with a few rockets that are programmed to hit the bunkers precisely. This triggers an return salvo on my guns position which is recorded and retraced to their origins by multiple WLRs located along with my arty boys. With the location of their guns found i would have a Counter-Battery salvo launched and force them to relocate and set up new fire base. These would keep going on for sometime till my forces have neutralized their guns to a significant extent.

Under the cover of above attacks, i have my engineers build a bridge to the other side and place demo charges on the wall to collapse it, as much as possible. With the breach in the wall i have my assault forces move through there and neutralize the threats which are oriented to repel an attack from top. This ground operation takes place under enemy fire so we both take causalities but the enemy never thought i would tunnel through the wall instead of scaling it..

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Dec 2011 23:57

Bala Vignesh wrote:
shiv wrote: For example Bala Vignesh makes a detailed battle plan and then I suddenly come up and say "Sorry I just killed your leader by a chance rock falling from the sky" creating more argument on the thread Technically Bala should have a back up plan in case the first one fails because some fellow like me produces a rock falling from the sky. Of course Bala Vignesh can argue back an say "Balls. How can a rock appear from the sky. Come up with a more convincing story"
Shiv sir
Why this Kolaveri??? Why single me out???

You have been promoted by Phild Marshalla Shiv
So now You are now the Janaral Bala Vignesh,
Me, the Hair Marshall support this decision.

manum · Post by **manum** » 12 Dec 2011 00:02

Manish_Sharma wrote:http://imageshack.us/f/268/mountainrd10kmrdcopy.jpg/

^I'm trying to post this image to show in the post from imageshack, but it's not showing never had this problem before.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Dec 2011 00:03

kersi saar, shouldn't the hair marshal have a head full of hair ?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 12 Dec 2011 00:15

Rahul M wrote:kersi saar, shouldn't the hair marshal have a head full of hair ?

I still have some hair, 1967 when I last counted them !!! (Including moustache, beard, etc etc (not mentionables)

K

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Dec 2011 00:29

You do not conduct a war, you you conduct a set of battles.

The war conducts itself.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Dec 2011 00:34

But kersiji,
I am but a lowly second lieutenant..

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 12 Dec 2011 00:40

Manish,
you beat me to it. Nevertheless...

Shiv,
is it accurate?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 12 Dec 2011 00:50

This is a Shiv's version of the Battle of Helms Deep.

The Orcs won it by numbers.

I would bombard Shivs position day and night using Pinaka and heavy artillery 24 x 7 for 2-3 days. If and when air support is available, I would use runway busting munition to knock out the highway. My pinaka and artillery would have made short work of the wall as well.

The rest is replaying out the opening sequences of Saving Private Ryan. Horrendous casualties, but with enough men, I will win.

I suspect however Shiv will say that it will be possible to breach the canal and make the 10 Km road unusable. He doesnt say how this canal is fed, weather etc. If its summer with low volumes of water, I will make it a point to breach the canal myself. Let the water drain out to manageable proportions and then make my attack.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Dec 2011 00:55

JohneeG, yours is much more accurate so doesn't matter who posted first mine is not as accurate!

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 12 Dec 2011 01:00

Manish_Sharma wrote:JohneeG, yours is much more accurate so doesn't matter who posted first mine is not as accurate!

I think Shiv can clarify properly. I am doubtful about what I posted, since I am not very knowledgable about military scenarios except playing COD and reading Vivek Ahuja...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2011 06:41

I think it is possible to play this "game" any which way. I can't dispute any replies that have been made. But two people have initially suggested heavy artillery - namely Pinaka to sort out the defences and then start an assault.

Let me just pose a few questions.

The enemy would expect exactly such an assault and let me assume that they have positioned their artillery - say a total of 20 to 25 pieces of artillery dispersed in an area ranging from 10 km behind the canal to 25 km behind - in a rough rectangle of land that is 200 square kilometers in area. (25 artillery pieces dispersed in a 10 km by 20 km area behind the border canal). That translates to 25 artillery pieces hidden in 50,000 acres of land - bigger than most cities. Each artillery piece is separated from the next one by at least a kilometer or more. Some are well fortified and can only be taken out by dierct hits. Others are mobile and camouflaged, ready to fire and move.

This artillery is designed to take on any assaulting force that tries to build some kind of bridge across the canal. At unknown points behind the canal the enemy has observer or video cameras monitoring your movement and there is a direct underground fiber optic link to an unknown number of comm stations that can relay information about you to the dispersed artillery who can start bombarding your assault force if you start getting close. Each artillery piece can fire one round every 30 seconds and all 25 together can fire 50 rounds a minute. They can saturate an area where you concentrate your tanks or bridge laying equipment with 500 artillery shells in 10 minutes after waiting for you to set everything up unless you can stop them from seeing you, or communicating with each other or firing.

How do you plan your assault? How do you find out where the artillery is? Where are the communication centers? What are the observation points? Do you just disrupt comm? Or do you take out the defending artillery to establish a bridgehead? Or do you just mount a massive assault taking huge casualties but eventually overwhelming defences? How much do you have by way of forces? How much can you put into battle? How much can you afford to lose? How long is it going to take. You have to do it in 48 hours after you start - after that the enemy defences will only get stronger.

We are only talking about the canal and bund. The area beyond is a 5 km deep minefield and the actual enemy forces are behind that - but you have to get there first.

Any ideas?

BTW folks - thanks for those nice pictures!

cool.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2011 06:49

Bala Vignesh wrote:
shiv wrote: For example Bala Vignesh makes a detailed battle plan and then I suddenly come up and say "Sorry I just killed your leader by a chance rock falling from the sky" creating more argument on the thread Technically Bala should have a back up plan in case the first one fails because some fellow like me produces a rock falling from the sky. Of course Bala Vignesh can argue back an say "Balls. How can a rock appear from the sky. Come up with a more convincing story"
Shiv sir
Why this Kolaveri??? Why single me out???

In retrospect I should have said Sanku - but I didn't know he visits this forum

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 12 Dec 2011 07:19

shiv wrote:I think it is possible to play this "game" any which way. I can't dispute any replies that have been made. But two people have initially suggested heavy artillery - namely Pinaka to sort out the defences and then start an assault.

Let me just pose a few questions.

The enemy would expect exactly such an assault and let me assume that they have positioned their artillery - say a total of 20 to 25 pieces of artillery dispersed in an area ranging from 10 km behind the canal to 25 km behind - in a rough rectangle of land that is 200 square kilometers in area. (25 artillery pieces dispersed in a 10 km by 20 km area behind the border canal). That translates to 25 artillery pieces hidden in 50,000 acres of land - bigger than most cities. Each artillery piece is separated from the next one by at least a kilometer or more. Some are well fortified and can only be taken out by dierct hits. Others are mobile and camouflaged, ready to fire and move.

This artillery is designed to take on any assaulting force that tries to build some kind of bridge across the canal. At unknown points behind the canal the enemy has observer or video cameras monitoring your movement and there is a direct underground fiber optic link to an unknown number of comm stations that can relay information about you to the dispersed artillery who can start bombarding your assault force if you start getting close. Each artillery piece can fire one round every 30 seconds and all 25 together can fire 50 rounds a minute. They can saturate an area where you concentrate your tanks or bridge laying equipment with 500 artillery shells in 10 minutes after waiting for you to set everything up unless you can stop them from seeing you, or communicating with each other or firing.

How do you plan your assault? How do you find out where the artillery is? Where are the communication centers? What are the observation points? Do you just disrupt comm? Or do you take out the defending artillery to establish a bridgehead? Or do you just mount a massive assault taking huge casualties but eventually overwhelming defences? How much do you have by way of forces? How much can you put into battle? How much can you afford to lose? How long is it going to take. You have to do it in 48 hours after you start - after that the enemy defences will only get stronger.

We are only talking about the canal and bund. The area beyond is a 5 km deep minefield and the actual enemy forces are behind that - but you have to get there first.

Any ideas?

BTW folks - thanks for those nice pictures! cool.

Shiv,
A few questions, since this is an interesting tactical scenario. Also, there are some parallels here to Thermopylae. (a) are there restrictions on use of air power, (b) has local air supremacy been achieved, (c) are there restrictions on the use of airborne divisions (d) is this the only pass through the mountains (or more sneakily, are there any alternate routes), (e) can the entire area be circumvented through a large enveloping pincer - once you are in the rear, a forward facing defensive emplacement a la Maginot line is not defensible.

Thoughts?

Cheers
aharam

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2011 08:17

aharam wrote: Shiv,
A few questions, since this is an interesting tactical scenario. Also, there are some parallels here to Thermopylae. (a) are there restrictions on use of air power, (b) has local air supremacy been achieved, (c) are there restrictions on the use of airborne divisions (d) is this the only pass through the mountains (or more sneakily, are there any alternate routes), (e) can the entire area be circumvented through a large enveloping pincer - once you are in the rear, a forward facing defensive emplacement a la Maginot line is not defensible.

Thoughts?

Aharam, the only thought I had is that a pincer movement is not possible in this case and there are no alternate routes. But no specific restrictions on the use of air power or airborne divsions. But I am leaving the field open for "objectors" who might object to the use of unreasonably large air forces in the attack saying that such forces may not be available because they are "busy elsewhere". In other words - people are free to bring in air power as needed, but there could be objections by others who say "How can you bring so much firepower to bear? Won't they be needed elsewhere in the huge war?". So the forces one brings in should be reasonable and credible.

But that's about all.

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 12 Dec 2011 08:59

shiv wrote:
aharam wrote: Shiv,
A few questions, since this is an interesting tactical scenario. Also, there are some parallels here to Thermopylae. (a) are there restrictions on use of air power, (b) has local air supremacy been achieved, (c) are there restrictions on the use of airborne divisions (d) is this the only pass through the mountains (or more sneakily, are there any alternate routes), (e) can the entire area be circumvented through a large enveloping pincer - once you are in the rear, a forward facing defensive emplacement a la Maginot line is not defensible.

Thoughts?
Aharam, the only thought I had is that a pincer movement is not possible in this case and there are no alternate routes. But no specific restrictions on the use of air power or airborne divsions. But I am leaving the field open for "objectors" who might object to the use of unreasonably large air forces in the attack saying that such forces may not be available because they are "busy elsewhere". In other words - people are free to bring in air power as needed, but there could be objections by others who say "How can you bring so much firepower to bear? Won't they be needed elsewhere in the huge war?". So the forces one brings in should be reasonable and credible.

But that's about all.

Here goes my try no. 1:

From the layout, the opening assault cannot be armor due to the anti-tank fortifications. My take would be a creeping artillery barrage - if the comm links are not buried very deep, this will actually disrupt communications by breaking the link - this happened a lot to comm lines in the first and second world wars since they were laid over the ground. Second, the defensive troop density is quite small, so they are relying on natural obstructions. Typical density in a defensive front would be at least two brigades for a front of 10 KM, if not a whole division. Given these numbers, the attacking force does not need to be very large. Depending on whether they are regular infantry or special forces, between 1000 to 4000 should suffice. Following the creeping artillery barrage, I would land heli-borne troops behind the mine field. Helis are susceptible to manpads, but you can't duck from the artillery barrage in a trench or foxhole and fire manpads with any trajectory that can hit a heli. For maximum effect, the artillery barrage and landings have to be simultaneous in more than one part of the front. This is assuming that opposition bunkers can be destroyed by artillery or MBRLs, if not then we fallback to LGBs from an altitude safe from MANPADS, so anything over 25000ft since typical MANPADS have a 7 KM range. First objective is destruction of bunkers.

As helis are landing troops, armor wave fords the canal with bridging equipment. If artillery barrage can continue and fording takes time, then heli gunships take the role of armor in selectively taking out hard points, with infantry breaking through. You could even drop troops in the rear to achieve an equivalent of penetration in depth. Once the canal is forded, lead with minesweeper tanks, and you now have armor and infantry across the major obstacles.

Advantage of the plan is that there are no staging areas for enemy artillery attacks on armor in the staging area - our attack has begun when we are staging. Artillery finding radar is relatively quick and can be used in counter battery role to suppress enemy artillery fire during the crucial fording operation.

The major detraction is that this plan is complex with too many simultaneous operations. Nothing in war goes per plan

Maybe we catch a break and the enemy's plan fails as well

Cheers
aharam

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Dec 2011 10:32

How can your own troops operate in a location being pounded by artillery while enemy troops can't ? You can't use artillery as suppressive fire like this. I don't think that it's safe for choppers to fly in air space with so many shells flying around either

Bolasani · Post by **Bolasani** » 12 Dec 2011 12:10

A few questions which came to my mind:

1) Nationalities of the two parties?
This will determine both the equipment available and the tactics that will be used. USA is sensitive to personnel losses. A less concerned country would just drive a few thousand civilians across the minefield to clear it. USA or Russia would use weapon systems not accessible to a country like India. (I am assuming that we stick to the equipment currently in service with the countries and no theoretical or experimental devices. Please correct me if I am assuming incorrectly)

2) Background of the conflict. Is this a do or die type of situation. How interested is the international community in this conflict.
If this a do or die, I would just nuke the area. No international observers, I might look at chemical or biological agents, if I can get away with it.

3) Coming to more mundane matters, what do we know about the enemy equipment.
How much ammunition is available for the artillery?
Are the troops well supplied with thermal or night vision equipment? NBC gear?
Do they have radar coverage of the battlefield? WLRs?

Hmm, How about just bribing the enemy commander to let me through?

PS: Nitpick, I would consider it unfair to add additional information after an approach is specified. Neither the minefield nor the video cameras monitoring equipment mentioned in the OP.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Dec 2011 13:20

shiv wrote: The enemy would expect exactly such an assault and let me assume that they have positioned their artillery - say a total of 20 to 25 pieces of artillery dispersed in an area ranging from 10 km behind the canal to 25 km behind - in a rough rectangle of land that is 200 square kilometers in area. (25 artillery pieces dispersed in a 10 km by 20 km area behind the border canal). That translates to 25 artillery pieces hidden in 50,000 acres of land - bigger than most cities. Each artillery piece is separated from the next one by at least a kilometer or more. Some are well fortified and can only be taken out by dierct hits. Others are mobile and camouflaged, ready to fire and move.

I have a few specific launchers and guns with PGM capability earmarked specifically for Counter Battery operations and these are in separate locations from my other arty units. So the instant an Arty shot is fired on my battery or my men, with the help of Weapon locating Radar, we isolate the location and bring the fire down on them. This will happen even before a gun stops firing and can scoot as the counter battery force will be one 5 seconds alert at all times.

shiv wrote: This artillery is designed to take on any assaulting force that tries to build some kind of bridge across the canal. At unknown points behind the canal the enemy has observer or video cameras monitoring your movement and there is a direct underground fiber optic link to an unknown number of comm stations that can relay information about you to the dispersed artillery who can start bombarding your assault force if you start getting close. Each artillery piece can fire one round every 30 seconds and all 25 together can fire 50 rounds a minute. They can saturate an area where you concentrate your tanks or bridge laying equipment with 500 artillery shells in 10 minutes after waiting for you to set everything up unless you can stop them from seeing you, or communicating with each other or firing.

With recce by spec ops and UAV's, i don't have to send my boys to the edge of the canal till the arty is sufficiently eliminated. And then if the troops face fire from enemy OP's along the wall then they will have to either engage, clear and then start the bridging process or would just have to take fire and work.. But with my arty pounding on them they would be hard pressed to engage my troops. For comm links, if the shelling doesn't destroy the cabling then it'll atleast destroy the bunker that holds the comms gear..

Of course, as the stated condition is that my airforce is tied up in other operations, what ever i can scrounge will be used to carry out interdiction behind the 10KM zone where the bulk of the enemy's forces are located. This should tie them up and also cause enough damage to the infrastructure that these guys can't rush out all of sudden. In case i miss them and they are already enroute or their lead elements are starting to reinforce the enemy at the far end of the canal, then i would use the availble air forces to bomb the route taken using stand off weapons, high speed rocket attacks, and even canon fire if it has to come to it. I would also look to induct my special operation team behind the canal and destroy vital infrastructure and the comm links.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Dec 2011 13:26

jamwal wrote:How can your own troops operate in a location being pounded by artillery while enemy troops can't ? You can't use artillery as suppressive fire like this. I don't think that it's safe for choppers to fly in air space with so many shells flying around either

Choppers can work around the zone of fire and drop the airborne guys behind the position occupied by the enemy at the canal. And the arty keeps these guys hunkered down while these troops get their act together and engage them to clear them from flanks or rear.

Aharam sir,
Nice use of air mobility. With the natural orientation of the defenses facing the canal, the enemy will be surprised if he is engaged by even a small unit from the rear. Nice..

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 12 Dec 2011 14:30

Bolasani wrote: PS: Nitpick, I would consider it unfair to add additional information after an approach is specified. Neither the minefield nor the video cameras monitoring equipment mentioned in the OP.

Bolasani, one never has full information of enemy Orbat or equipment or preparation before commencing operation. You might argue that you would good recce, UAV sweeps, humint etc, but then too can you be sure you know everything. Or would you wait for getting everything in order, have the extensive info and then act.

"If we wait for the moment when everything, absolutely everything is ready, we shall never begin." -Ivan Turgenev

I, being the defender, why the heck would I wait while I see the enemy start preparing for the attack. Hell's its a 10km wide stretch. My Artillery & long range MLRS system would have every inch of it zeroed in and mapped. I would let you gather your forces for the assault, but the moment you start moving, hell I would bomb you on your side itself.

Secondly, even I would have be having counter artillery system's in place, to locate your artillery once it start its barrage. For you to win, you need massive artillery barrage and huge number of shells. Which means, my counter battery strikes, even if they do not destroy your gun, would make them use shoot & scoot tactics, which means, your volume of fire would reduce considerably. Moreover, since your side of the terrain is mountainous, it means you either you concentrate your artillery pieces in the 10km wide area (which is good news for me) or you disperse them in the mountain's which any way would reduce their movement, hence scoot capabilities. Moreover, if you stick to the narrow valleys between the mountains your guns angle of fires are restricted, since you would have to shell across high mountains.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 12 Dec 2011 14:42

Secondly, the mountain terrain on the attacker side means that his lines of communications are limited. Hence I would use my long range MLRS systems, like smerch to hit those sections. Infact I have another idea. I would ask some of my artillery to deliberately not hit the 10 km wide stretch, but rather hit the mountain sides, maybe 100-300 ms below the top, and cause rockslides & and slides. A little bit more of headache for the attacker to consider. This might cause them to stay 50-100 m away from the hills hehehehe

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My biggest worry Shiv sir as the defender is not the frontal assault, which would be very bloody, but the dropping of good number of airborne forces behind me, sufficient enough to attack my dispersed artillery & support system. Hence, I would throw in a good number of AA system 5-10km behind the actual front, dispersed with my artillery, to prevent air drop.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 12 Dec 2011 15:16

Shiv Saar, some of my friends (not brfites) play this very often. Better starting point will be listing of areas of operations. And order of battle. Better still some guys can play the Foe. Also command structure needs to be clear.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 12 Dec 2011 16:44

The destruction of the wall, bridging of the canal, destruction of the defenders and subsequent breakout would be a very long bloody affair. It is possible but at enormous costs. Eventually it would boil down to who has the resources for a long drawn out battle. This would be a case similar to the Battle of Stalingrad. This soviet forces were forced to the other side of the Volga. The germans on one side, the soviets on another. Soviets ferrying small amount of troops across the river, winning a building and then building from there.

Similary the destruction of the canal, bund and mine field would be long drawn messy affair. Costly. I would rather look for another opening, maybe 100-200km further away, but easier.

This might sound as silly, but anyone who has played Age Of Empire-2 or 3, BlackForrest Map, would know the difficulty. That map has huge dense swaths of forrest, with narrow channels acting as connecting paths between different players. If you want to attack your opponent, you would have to go by these long narrow pathways, because every where else the dense forest prevents movement. Hence the opponent all they have to do is build good wall defenses with towers, backed by ranged weapons behind the walls, in the narrow paths and defend them. Its a long drawn out affair. Of course the attacker can bring heavy ranged siege weapons to break the walls. But then the defender can always send a relatively small number of light/heavy cavalry, by opening small gates to break the siege weapons. Sometimes, you can keep the cavalry force outside the wall itself, but near the wall, protected by the defenses. Was it possible to break the defense, yes it was, but it was a long costly affair and basically boiled down to how much resources you have. If the defender has control of more resources, well then you would reach a point when you are too weak to defend against a counter attack. If you have more resources, then you go for a war of attrition and eventually wear the defender down enough, that the wall collapses.

This scenario is something akin to that and eventually would boil down to who can keep pouring men & machine into the cauldron longer.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 12 Dec 2011 17:42

OK I'll bite.

Assumptions:

- Enemy forces are alert and expect an attack, but don't know exactly when.

- Blue forces have a fair idea of the enemy ORBAT and eORBAT and their disposition. Red forces don't (they are aware of the holding units but not the assault and exploitation unit details).

- Blue forces enjoy at least partial night fighting advantage over the red forces.

- Since the mentioned Red force reinforced battalion is expected to hold a major ingress point in depth it will be very scattered and thinly manned. These forces cannot be anything more than a tripwire. I will assume that the enemy forces are substantially larger with plenty of attached support units appropriate to hold this area. Blue force will be divisional level or atleast a brigade with lots of specialized units attached

- Friendly air forces and ADA can guarantee reasonable cover during the critical bridging phase of the assault

- No nukes.

PRE-ASSAULT (day before the assault)

- Neighboring forces will begin probing attacks on their own front as a prelude to the assault.

- A special group not part of the main assault will be tasked to probe the defenses in the valley sector. This formation will be told that we are doing diversionary and pinning attacks to support the other attacks in the neighborhood which are the real ones. It is likely a few of these men will be captured and likely to divulge this disinformation to the enemy. Even otherwise enemy leaders would be able to identify these as what they are - distractions to pin their forces.

BATTLEFIELD PREPARATION, Isolate the battlearea (just after dusk)

Physical Isolation :

- Get any available long range assets (artillery, MRL, aircraft) to strew mines across the main roads used to feed reinforcements to this valley. Reinforcement will not be stopped, but will be delayed.

- If I can get some SoF teams to take out some bridges etc it will be a bonus, but really don't expect SoF teams to succeed. Another target might be cutting the secure landlines.

- Any air cover I get would be tasked to disrupt the traffic on the feeder roads and would be made to look like regular BAI.

Electronic :

- MRLs will start the engagement with a salvo of barrage jammers (wideband radio jammers) behind the forward lines. This kills the radio comms for the first few hours. A light barrage behind the FEBA with regular HE shells will help cut some of the landlines etc. If I can isolate the forces down to company level by degrading their comms to higher units then its a job well done.

- Fake TV/Radio/Army Radio on channels the forces in that valley monitor with reports saying the red force NCA has decided on a strategic withdrawal and left the troops in the valley to cover the withdrawal. The forces in the valley to fight to the last man-last bullet. (This might not work, even if it does it will for a small time, but if does morale will take a hit. This is possible only if the high command thinks that a breakthrough in this area is of significance and allots the appropriate psyops troops and equipment).

Control :

- Since this is a large static "fortified" area, all identified or likely CP locations or alternates (Company level or higher) will be hammered with a preplan attack. This is the first real inkling to the enemy that this area is being targeted for assault. No frontline units will be targeted. Objective is to degrade C&C rather than destroy it.

- If any supporting units have access to ARM etc, this is the time to hit the sensor network - WLRs, BFSR, ASRs etc.

Flanks:

- A few Small task forces (Snipers, MANPAD teams, FAO etc) will be helidropped at critical points along the cliffs and mountains along the valley. They are instructed to raise as much ruckus as possible. While they will not roll up the flanks they must threaten to do so for the first few critical hours of the assault. The enemy command will have to worry about securing their flanks and siphon of some of the ready reinforcements to contain or wipe these groups out. The regular sepoy will look at the flashes from the mountain top and start wondering.

ASSAULT ( starts after full darkness)

- If the above activities does not provoke the red artillery to uncloak themselves a feint will be made at breaching the bund using a regular forces. The aim is to silence substantial portion of the red artillery with counter-battery fire. Note that my precious bridging and engineer units will be nowhere near this assault.

- All along the front line the mortar units will fire smoke or WP to cloak the bund and its approaches.

- All units along the whole front will open fire making it difficult to identify the actual assault crossing area

- The main breaching attack will be made in a small sector. All Blue forces organic support weapons will be allocated to support this effort. Liberal use of thermobaric weapons will be used to silence/limit the strong points in this area. Some armor/infantry will be moved forward directly upto the canal in a direct-fire role. If you have krasnodars, Reflex etc this is the time to use them

- Engineers will be brought upto do their business.

- - sappers collapse part of the bund with demolition charges.
- - Pontonier/bridging units to do their business
- - forces are rushed in to fan out and cover the bridgehead.
- Rinse and repeat in next sector till you have a viable bridgehead or you are fired for incompetence.

We'll leave the exploitation phase for later, if the dungeon master agrees to let us proceed

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 12 Dec 2011 18:14

jamwal wrote:How can your own troops operate in a location being pounded by artillery while enemy troops can't ? You can't use artillery as suppressive fire like this. I don't think that it's safe for choppers to fly in air space with so many shells flying around either

Hi Jamwal,
I had proposed a creeping barrage - this is pretty standard for suppressive fire where infantry advance behind it. Fairly old too - been used in positional warfare from WWI onwards. Shiv's scenario is a strong defensive emplacement that is not amenable to maneuver warfare, where we can bypass the position and create different opportunities. Hence I began with the staple of positional warfare- the creeping barrage during the advance. Helos can operate in this environment. Since there is no major altitude change across the emplacement, the helos don't need to gain any great altitude to cross the canal/bund - this would be a low altitude assault, well below artillery or MBRL launch altitudes.

Cheers
aharam

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 12 Dec 2011 18:23

Hi Shiv,
Are there any restrictions on using the mountains to the side? Otherwise, here's an interesting solution with the potential for low losses.

Take up the positions on the mountain ridges on the sides. You need heavy lift choppers to drop light artillery. All you have to do is find overhangs to protect your artillery and your position is nearly impregnable. With command of the heights, your artillery is protected since return fire solutions will not be simple. BTW, this format for artillery emplacement was used by the Turks in the Dardanelles campaign in WWI, where battleships of the Royal Navy pounded away at hillsides only to find they never managed to hit artillery emplacements there.

Use the artillery to pound away at the enemy emplacements and selectively pin down enemy infantry. Any enemy counter battery fire will only reveal their position without hurting our artillery - effectively we have open field of fire. From here on, you have a lot of possibilities, since the enemy has no mobility left - it is not a defensible position anymore since any enemy movement would simply get them killed.

Thoughts?

Cheers
aharam