Bharat Rakshak

The original question was regarding the opening at the wing root. What is it for?

CCS nips IAF’s training plan

The Indian Air Force’s plan to revive the training for its rookie pilots on a basic trainer aircraft seems to be heading nowhere.

The cabinet committee on Security (CCS), headed by the prime minister, which met recently, refused to give consent for the purchase of 75 Swiss Pilatus PC-7 trainer aircraft worth `1,850 crore. The IAF has been seeking CCS approval to purchase the aircraft for the last few months. Its failure to get the nod once again would delay Pilatus PC-7’s induction into IAF’s flying academies.

The IAF is hoping that it could sign the contract with the Swiss aircraft manufacturer once it is approved by the CCS and that it can chart out a roadmap for the training of instructors and the induction of the aircraft by 2013.

In November, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne had said that if the contract was signed by mid-December, the IAF should be able to start the first basic trainer course in two years.

However, with this delay, it is unlikely that the trainers would be inducted any time before 2015, says Air Marshal BK Pandey, former Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, which is responsible for the IAF’s flight and ground training.

“If CCS clears the deal and the contract is signed in the next few months then it would take two-and-half to three years for the first batch of the 75 trainer aircraft to be inducted. Besides, prior to the induction, instructors would have to be trained for about six months. Hence one can say that the trainers would be inducted only by 2015,” he said.

I doubt the CCS would have objected on frivolous grounds, but I am puzzled all the same. It was the cheapest prop trainer on offer, one wouldn't think they'd be many hurdles to getting it approved.

Most likely has to do with the current economic situation with budget deficit come at around 5.6 % for this financial year there is a gag order to curb spending.

Guess what? HALs basic trainer is going to be revived. My guess.

hat would be the best thing that can happen , I recollect looking at HTT-35 mockup and its superb cockpit view with those bubble canopy .... why they should import a trainer is something beyond me when way back in 1995 HAL has been displaying HTT-35 mockup.

That would be the best thing that can happen , I recollect looking at HTT-35 mockup and its superb cockpit view with those bubble canopy .... why they should import a trainer is something beyond me when way back in 1995 HAL has been displaying HTT-35 mockup.

I mean we are talking of building our own 5th and 6th gen fighter and built our 4th Gen LCA , yet we choose to import as basic as a Turboprop trainer.

Guess what? HALs basic trainer is going to be revived. My guess.

That would be the best thing that can happen , I recollect looking at HTT-35 mockup and its superb cockpit view with those bubble canopy .... why they should import a trainer is something beyond me when way back in 1995 HAL has been displaying HTT-35 mockup.

I mean we are talking of building our own 5th and 6th gen fighter and built our 4th Gen LCA , yet we choose to import as basic as a Turboprop trainer.

Completely disagree on the best thing to happen. Right now the IAF is without a basic trainer. Will the HAL new basic trainer be ready in the same amount of time that we get the Pilatus in? I doubt that very much.

Timelines. Timelines.

...the Mahindras have the NM5
Mahindra Press Release: NM5

per Wiki, its to cost somewhere in the region of 1.2-1.5 crores.
for 75 a/c the overall figure might be much lesser than the 1850 crores for the PT7.
is this a feasibility?

of course, the NM5 would need to be modfied for a 2-seater instead of its current size.

they do need money . 65% of indians are going to be certified under food security bill soon.

I am ready with my jute sack to get my Rs2/kilo dehra dun basmati rice

Are we still thinking of "Air Dominance" or even "local air superiority" vis-a-vis the Chinese? Is that a realistic or likely objective? Is anything more than "contested airspace" a realistic outcome from the IAF?

IOW, is IAF : PLAAF :: PAF : IAF?

(i.e. IAF isto PLAAF, as the PAF is unto IAF). Anybody has anything to argue for or against this formula? Is this true in 2012? Will it be true in 2020? What about 2030?

Instead of outcomes over the battlefield as a whole, its better to look at it in terms of sectors or zones of influence. While maintaining air dominance or air supremacy, of the sort exercised by the USAF, is obviously out of the question, the IAF can enforce air superiority over friendly troop positions extending to the FEBA, and total checking of enemy air activity in a region... say 75 km from its forward air bases.

Coming to the PAF-IAF, IAF-PLAAF analogy, I admit I've mused over the similarity often, but I'm not convinced by it.

Firstly, the disparity in forces isn't as lopsided - in terms of fourth generation fighters the IAF's inventory is roughly speaking 4:1 against the PAF and 1:2 against the PLAAF.

Secondly, there's the technological superiority that the IAF maintains vis-a-vis both forces - the PLAAF because it can't access western tech and the PAF because it can't afford it.

Thirdly, the IAF is clearly the better trained force and by a considerable margin. While there's been an improvement in Chinese standards over last two decades (before that they were truly abysmal), its still constrained by being a very insular force. That PAF too while placing a strong emphasis on pilot training, is hampered by budgetary concerns - flight hours logged are still a function of the amount of imported jet fuel the service can afford (making foreign exercises too an expensive proposition).

The IAF on the other hand, not only trains hard but also extensively exercises with numerous friendly air forces. Also, Indian military as a whole remains more open and thereby more amenable to change. That often results in allegations like the CAG jeopardizing national security, but on the whole is preferable to the state prevailing in our neighborhood where uncomfortable facts are swept under rug.

Finally and possibly most importantly, the geography has not been a good friend to the PAF. Most of its assets are concentrated in a thin belt running along the length of the country 50-250km from the border. The IAF-PLAAF front on the other hand, spans a massive area with challenging terrain, making it harder for the superior force to concentrate its resources for a decisive result (as opposed to a slugging war of attrition).

All in all, at least in a single front war I'd expect the IAF to be able to fight the PLAAF to a stalemate - prevent it from significantly influencing the ground war while clocking a superior attrition rate. I don't believe the PAF has the capacity to do the same vis-a-vis the IAF.

(BTW this line of discussion is mostly off-topic, so its best pursued on a different thread.)

I was thinking ... when you can't make it fake it ... so how about a simulator?

P.S. simulating decision making under physical stress might be a challenge though.

That would be the best thing that can happen , I recollect looking at HTT-35 mockup and its superb cockpit view with those bubble canopy .... why they should import a trainer is something beyond me when way back in 1995 HAL has been displaying HTT-35 mockup.

I mean we are talking of building our own 5th and 6th gen fighter and built our 4th Gen LCA , yet we choose to import as basic as a Turboprop trainer.

I agree with you on this.. So can't the numbers be slashed to 40-45 for current requirements and let the HTT 35/40 fill up the rest as it comes online.. Plus given that the induction won't happen till 2015 gives HAL a solid 2 years to design and develop the HTT40. The production part can be handed over to either Mahindra or L&T or any such private players..

gives HAL a solid 2 years to design and develop the HTT40

With the IJT saga going on & on, HAL doesnt inspire confidence to be able to do the job in two years.

The solution is not imports, but true indegenization.......................

India has a billion minds, instead of igniting them, our Govt is shackling them at the whims of people who've risen up the ranks based on timescale promotion, and who hope to secure their ivory towers by shackling others.

With the IJT saga going on & on, HAL doesnt inspire confidence to be able to do the job in two years.

The solution is not imports, but true indegenization.......................

India has a billion minds, instead of igniting them, our Govt is shackling them at the whims of people who've risen up the ranks based on timescale promotion, and who hope to secure their ivory towers by shackling others.

do you mean whilst training in a flight simulator? i can assure you that it is almost like the real thing and the stress is extremely real

With the IJT saga going on & on, HAL doesnt inspire confidence to be able to do the job in two years.

The solution is not imports, but true indigenization.

The first government lie is indigenization. The Government of India defines indigenization as something coming out from PSUs, even if the PSU's themselves import and paste a label.

The second government lie is that only PSU's have the capability and scale to undertake defence R&D and manufacturing. The truth is modern defence manufacturing in India was started by the Private Sector.

The facts are the Wadia shipbuilders built ships for the British since 17xx, (Go Air carries the Wadia crest on its planes, one can see the ship in that crest denoting the origins of that group as shipbuilders).

Walchand Hirachand started Hindustan Shipyards. What GoI will never reveal is that fact that HSL built better quality ships in shorter timeframes as a pvt shipyard than after nationalization.

Walchand Hirachand and Ismail Mirza started HAL, that built Curtis Wright fighters that flew with the Flying Tigers in China. How many know that the legends of the Flying Tigers were created on private sector HAL birds? Again, quality and timeliness were far superior than after nationalization. But to hide PSU inefficiency, official HAL history will only begin after nationalization.

The same bureaucracy until some years back didnt allow citizens to fly the flag stating only the bureaucracy was entitled to fly the flag, ignoring the fact that it was the private citizen who undertook satyagraha and took British bullets when the bureaucracy was licking British boots.

Yet today, for a private shipyard to build a frigate, it needs to be a subcontractor to a PSU.

India has a billion minds, instead of igniting them, our Govt is shackling them at the whims of people who've risen up the ranks based on timescale promotion, and who hope to secure their ivory towers by shackling others.

there is a world of difference between the NM5 and the PT7 or any fighter-trainer.

could you point me to some place where I could glean this "world" of difference?

I am not proposing that we use NM5 as-is. It could be modified, strengthened perhaps for more rigrous flying but most importantly we have a ready test-bed available. the airworthiness of the airframe for a given load is proven. the wing-characteristics would be well-known, understood and since its a aero-taxi, hence its flying characteristics should not have nasty surprises. this was my basis of suggesting it.

of course, if you could point me to what is missing, then maybe we'd have a better appreciation of whether it is possible or not.

A fighter trainer is basically a aerobatic plane