Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Cybaru
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Cybaru »

Kartik wrote:
The logic seems to be 'pehle istemaal kare phir vishwaas kare' but this is hardly logical in this case. There are no real options apart from the A-330MRTT and the Il-78MKI for the IAF. the KC-46 for the USAF is still in development phase and introducing a new type into service in such small numbers is foolhardy when one already has both the A-330MRTT and Il-78MKI. so why waste time and money on a new tender instead of adding the other 6 as options? It doesn't cost us anything to add options!
If we add 12/18 of these MRTT's then perhaps we can convert existing 6 midas to AEW and get more phalcons in the air.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Viv S »

Kartik wrote:The longer they wait to place the order for the next 6, the costlier those 6 will get! The price will not stay constant and if the order size is large enough, its even more incentive for the manufacturer to give a good price and try to seal the deal. Next we'll see that the next batch of 6 refuellers (and I pray to God that the MoD is not staffed by such blithering idiots who'd want another tender for the next 6) will cost more than the first 6. Whereas, if they'd gone for the 6 and placed 6 as options, the price is frozen till a specific time during which the order has to be confirmed. Then you get the next batch of 6 for the same price as the first batch.
Are you sure a follow-on order is not included as an option? It seems to be standard practice.

The other possibility is that the IAF simply doesn't want the six additional aircraft in the same time frame (contract options coming with an expiry date). In the C-17's case for example, the IAF did not want quick deliveries but wanted to space them over several years, which didn't pan out because, with USAF deliveries concluding in 2013, Boeing was looking to wrap up the production line.

In plain numerical terms, the IAF's fleet is probably going to stagnate until the last part of the decade, when bolstered by the Tejas Mk2 and incoming PAK-FAs, its strength will push back upto the sanctioned 39.5 squadrons. Its aerial refueling requirements will increase proportionally, and you could have fresh orders placed in say.. 2017 for delivery in 2019/20.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Viv S »

Cybaru wrote:Sure, that seems like a reasonable argument. But unless these platforms are at the same level as other IAF assets, there will be enough differences in them to require special training for pilots, ground staff, procedures and inter-operability will be a pain. You won’t be able to take pilots from one squad and deploy them to another one without conversion training as their training will require tweaking for sure. Connecting with AWACS and other assets will also be a problem.
You'd require the integration of Indian data-links on the Mirages, but that aside those aircraft would be at the 'same level' as other IAF assets. No special training or conversion required for serving Mirage pilots.

No matter how you dice it, adding these airframes will mean deep upgrades to a common IAF level whatever that maybe IMO. So unless we are ready to commit to that level of spending on a 3rd gen platform, it doesn't make sense.
???

The Mirage 2000 is very much a fourth generation platform.

3rd Gen - MiG-21 Bison, MiG-27, Jaguar
4th Gen - MiG-29, Mirage 2000, Tejas, Su-30MKI
tushar_m

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tushar_m »

IAF have too many platforms to maintain , maybe more than PLAAF

good decision on retiring the older aircraft & mig27 it will make way for new fighters.

less maintenance more uptime......
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Kartik »

Cybaru wrote: Sure, that seems like a reasonable argument. But unless these platforms are at the same level as other IAF assets, there will be enough differences in them to require special training for pilots, ground staff, procedures and inter-operability will be a pain. You won’t be able to take pilots from one squad and deploy them to another one without conversion training as their training will require tweaking for sure. Connecting with AWACS and other assets will also be a problem.
The IAF for a long time has operated types with significant differences between each other. For instance Jaguar DARIN 1s have been operated while the majority of the other fleet was DARIN 2 level. And soon we'll see DARIN 3s in place while DARIN 2s will continue to operate. So this is not the biggest issue. So having a couple of sub-systems or even major sub-systems like the radar not the same as the other 51 Mirages should not be a big issue. Even the Mirage fleet had differences in the RDM radars, with the last batch of 10 having a different RDM variant than the earlier ones.
We have made it so far with this fleet. I think it is time to dump the old 3/3.5 gen stuff and replace with new builds/platforms only. If the new french deal gets signed, we will be adding in about 2 new squadrons ( 1 MKI + 1 Rafale) a year. That is close to 60/80 pilots getting moved to new platforms a year. That is a lot of change already. The darin3 jaguar upgrade, the mig-29 upgrade, mirage2000 upgrade will already cause a lot of flux in IAF. If LCA gets through IOC/FOC that will be another 2 squadrons in the next 3-4 time frame. This will also prevent issues of spares another 10-15 years down the road when we will be as always the only operator for this type(mig-29) of aircraft in the world. The new stuff maybe expensive for sure, but it is far more capable than anything we ever operated. It can run SEAD/A2G/AA/surveillance/buddy-refueler tasking with one type of craft ( Both MKI/Rafale)
Time to dump the MiG-29 and Mirage? if the IAF agreed with you then we wouldn't be seeing costly and time consuming upgrades to both types to keep them capable of flying another 15-20 years.

Also, you will not get the first Rafale into service for 36 months after contract signature at least. Assuming that the contract gets signed by April 2013 (and that's a HUGELY optimistic assumption), the first of the Rafales will not arrive till 2016. That's 3 years during which the IAF will only look to induct MKIs to arrest its falling numbers and maybe 1 Tejas Mk1 squadron will become operational. In the meantime, Type 77s and 96 will start leaving service and by 2016 all will be gone. Then the MiG-27s will start retiring and then the Bisons.

The quickest and cheapest way to at least put a dent in the decline is to get these MiG-29s since they're available pronto. Have Russia upgrade them like the 6 they've already done if the facilities at the BRD are not yet ready. In doing so, there will be an additional MiG-29UPG squadron in a year and a half's time.

The Mirages are a different story now- they'll only be available if Qatar signs up for the Rafale, which isn't going to happen any time too soon. So that boat has probably sailed as far as we're concerned.

As for the MiG-29UPG, RuAF itself operates some MiG-29SMTs that were rejected by Algeria and these are brand new builds. They'll be in service as long as our MiG-29UPGs will be, so spares should not be an issue. Besides, a depot was set up by MiG to assure India that the MiG-29 and MiG-29K get guaranteed spares in time. Also, since ToT of the RD-33 Series 3 engine was done (they'll be licence built in India) and these jets are being upgraded at a BRD, the ToT for supporting this type for another 15 years will be done.

Looking at the bang for the buck, these MiG-29UPGs are quite good. You won't get such capable fighters for $20-25 million (including upgrade costs) anywhere else.
No matter how you dice it, adding these airframes will mean deep upgrades to a common IAF level whatever that maybe IMO. So unless we are ready to commit to that level of spending on a 3rd gen platform, it doesn't make sense.
To me it makes ample sense. They're ALREADY investing in both the types that you're referring to through upgrade programs. Both these fighters will be made current and will be in use for another 15-20 years. The infrastructure to overhaul them (at least the Mirages) already exists at HAL. Supplementing the existing numbers by adding cheap airframes from other sources to address a particularly tight situation makes sense to me. I mean the IAF wants to buy 2 additional Mirages to replace those lost so that the number remains 51..why not add more if they're available and make use of the sunk costs for HAL's infrastructure?

Especially since the Rafale negotiations are ongoing and have not yet been finalized. We hear that negotiations are going on well, but one whiff of a controversy and there might well be added delays to that program as well.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Victor »

During the MRCA competition, there was a report that the French could give us upto 40 Rafales as loaners if we wanted to plug the gap until our first planes arrived. If true, this would seem to make a lot of sense--we instantly boost our numbers in a critical area, our pilots get acquainted and comfortable with the type quicker and the French make some extra dough. They hardly need Rafales to beat up on countries like Somalia or Syria so this won't compromise French security either. The only reason this wouldn't happen is it would upset the Chinese and there are enough mouse-types in Delhi to consider this reason enough to keep our weaknesses intact.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by merlin »

That doesn't compute. How does early availability of the Rafales upset the Chinese more than the availability at a later date? The only reason this won't happen is that the French will want us to pay through the nose and that might make the MoD mandarins pause.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by MN Kumar »

This was posted on LCA facebook page:
LEH Operations: Tejas has been flown successfully in extreme conditions in the rarefied heights of Leh at −28° C.
Note: This was during the high alt testing some time back.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Victor »

merlin wrote:That doesn't compute. How does early availability of the Rafales upset the Chinese more than the availability at a later date?
"Upset" is euphemistic lingo for "disappointed". Rafales *now* plugs a gap in our fighter defense by boosting it immediately. Later is fine if we have a guarantee that the Chinese won't attack while we have this gap.
The only reason this won't happen is that the French will want us to pay through the nose and that might make the MoD mandarins pause.
This is certainly probable. In which case we could have bought a squadron or two off the shelf. A used Rafale in hand is better than two new ones in the bush 5 years from now. Would have been cheaper too.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

Afaik unlike the brits, the french govt has bailed out their mil industry and space industries and no plans to majorly downsize. Has anyone read of french af any downsizing plans?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Nick_S »

Karan M wrote: DARIN2 caught up in most respects with even newer tech. DARIN3 will be better in that it gets a radar.
Was it confirmed DARIN 3 would include a radar and if so, any info on which radar they will be getting?

Thanks.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Cybaru »

Kartik wrote: The IAF for a long time has operated types with significant differences between each other. For instance Jaguar DARIN 1s have been operated while the majority of the other fleet was DARIN 2 level. And soon we'll see DARIN 3s in place while DARIN 2s will continue to operate. So this is not the biggest issue. So having a couple of sub-systems or even major sub-systems like the radar not the same as the other 51 Mirages should not be a big issue. Even the Mirage fleet had differences in the RDM radars, with the last batch of 10 having a different RDM variant than the earlier ones.
Sure, there will be platforms at darin-2 till they get upgraded. The Darin-3 planes will get new capabilities, new manuals, and conversion training for the crew. It may possibly even get new roles as new hardware & upgraded computers may make that possible. You can't take a darin-1 pilot and task him to destroy a target across the border in this new platform. You can't have old ground crew fixing the new platform without proper training. So you will have pilots who are qualified to fly the expensive machines and will be comfortable with it to do what needs to be done under stress. Auto response and habit have to builtin for survival. Sure I drive cars in US and India, but everytime I am in India, the bloody viper turns on when i hit the turn signal. It takes me XX hours of practice to over write my old habit with new ones and then same amount of time to return it back to the old one. My point is however trivial the change, one needs to be comfortable with it to be use it effectively in heat of the battle. That is why one spends so many hours in the simulator. IAF has platforms at different levels, but I am not sure it moves pilots between its multi-versioned fleet without proper acclimatization/conversion training. Probably rupak can shed more light and you probably also know all these things. I am not stating anything new you aren’t aware of.
Time to dump the MiG-29 and Mirage? if the IAF agreed with you then we wouldn't be seeing costly and time consuming upgrades to both types to keep them capable of flying another 15-20 years.
Ah yes, if IAF had the money, we would have done that. It always wants shiny new toys. Anyways, I didn't say dump what we currently have, but if I can spend 75 million towards rafale and have to spend 45-50 million towards acquiring refurbed mirages, then I would rather see that money go towards rafale instead of adding new refurbed platforms.
All these units will start to break down and have lower uptimes as we get closer to end of life. The non Russian stuff will still fare better and have higher uptimes, than the Russian stuff, but the availability will still be lower. Again that's my opinion and I could be wrong.
As for the MiG-29UPG, RuAF itself operates some MiG-29SMTs that were rejected by Algeria and these are brand new builds. They'll be in service as long as our MiG-29UPGs will be, so spares should not be an issue.
Yeah, they use their stuff sparingly and dump it when they come up with new stuff. We are still flying 21’s/23/27’s 10-20 years after RuAF dumped their platforms and moved onto something else. Yes they are flying mig-29s due to a failed sale, but the day they can palm those migs onto someone else for a cheap price, they will. After a few years of flying it will enter mothball state and we will be browsing their new shiny expensive mothballed catalogue for parts for our migs. We will have delegations on chai/biscoot and Natashas as they scour junkyards and sign new bilateral agreements.
Besides, a depot was set up by MiG to assure India that the MiG-29 and MiG-29K get guaranteed spares in time. Also, since ToT of the RD-33 Series 3 engine was done (they'll be licence built in India) and these jets are being upgraded at a BRD, the ToT for supporting this type for another 15 years will be done.
Looking at the bang for the buck, these MiG-29UPGs are quite good. You won't get such capable fighters for $20-25 million (including upgrade costs) anywhere else.
No one is questioning capability of these fighters, my only observation was cost to acquire refurbed units at the same level as the ones in IAF after upgrades will require significant use of resources (cold cash) and perhaps our interests may be better served just acquiring newer types. If an MKI unit at home costs us between 35-50 million (we keep arguing what the real price is over years), why would IAF acquire mirages or mig-29s, which will cost us between 25-50 million. Okay the cost of operating it is higher, but this machine will have more airframe life, better upkeep, more commonality and larger payload and increased roles than both types and easier integration in most of our airbases due to huge costs sunk to support these types already.

We are also getting 42 new MKI’s as well so the situation isn’t as dire.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Kartik »

Victor wrote:During the MRCA competition, there was a report that the French could give us upto 40 Rafales as loaners if we wanted to plug the gap until our first planes arrived. If true, this would seem to make a lot of sense--we instantly boost our numbers in a critical area, our pilots get acquainted and comfortable with the type quicker and the French make some extra dough. They hardly need Rafales to beat up on countries like Somalia or Syria so this won't compromise French security either. The only reason this wouldn't happen is it would upset the Chinese and there are enough mouse-types in Delhi to consider this reason enough to keep our weaknesses intact.
Unlikely to happen. the Adl'A does not have spare Rafales to be given as loaners. Many of their older Mirages are nearing the end of their service life and only the Mirage-2000-5s and Mirage-2000Ns will stay on.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Kartik »

Nick_S wrote:
Karan M wrote: DARIN2 caught up in most respects with even newer tech. DARIN3 will be better in that it gets a radar.
Was it confirmed DARIN 3 would include a radar and if so, any info on which radar they will be getting?

Thanks.
Confirmed by none other than the highest authority in the IAF, the ACM. It was in his interview with NDTV. The likeliest radar is the Elta 2032 sized to fit the radome that will be used on the DARIN 3. The Jaguar-IMs already have had their older Agave radar replaced with the Elta 2032.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20067 »

Kartik wrote: Confirmed by none other than the highest authority in the IAF, the ACM. It was in his interview with NDTV. The likeliest radar is the Elta 2032 sized to fit the radome that will be used on the DARIN 3. The Jaguar-IMs already have had their older Agave radar replaced with the Elta 2032.
Who can this be?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... d-customer
Israel Aerospace Industries' (IAI) subsidiary, ELTA Systems has been awarded a contract by an undisclosed foreign customer to supply airborne fire control radars (FCR) for installation on its fighter aircraft.
Under the $150m contract, ELTA will deliver the ELM-2032 FCR radar system to provide enhanced surveillance and fire control capabilities for weapon system effectiveness and accuracy.
Developed based on operational feedback from fighter pilots for pilots, the ELM-2032 radar system enhances weapons systems' capabilities in air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operations modes in addition to providing optimal mission performance support under all weather conditions.
The light-weight compact radar features modular hardware design, software control and a flexible avionic interface that enable customisation to meet specific user requirements and easy integration onto different fighter aircraft including F-5, Mirage, F-4, Mig 21 fighter jets.
The advanced pulse Doppler, multimode FCR can detect and track manoeuvring targets while employing advanced techniques to lock on the target in close combat engagements of up to 150km.
The radar provides very high resolution ground imagery using synthetic aperture radar (SAR) technology for smart weapons guidance in air-to-ground missions.
While in air-to-sea operation mode, the FCR offers long-range target detection and tracking, including target classification capabilities at a ranges of up to 300km.
ELTA Systems has integrated the FCR radar system, which weighs between 72-100 kg, into F-4, F-5, F-16, Mirage and Mig-21 till date and will showcase the technology during the 2012 Singapore Air Show.
IAI plans to display its portfolio of products such as data link network technology, including those for fourth-generation cellular and software-defined radios in addition to Anti-ballistic missiles, tactical rockets and unmanned aerial vehicles at the air show.

Image: ELTA to deliver ELM-2032 FCR to provide enhanced surveillance and fire control capabilities for weapons systems. Photo: Israel Aerospace Industries.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Kartik »

Saw the P-8I today morning..I've seen it flying from Boeing Field many times before since the flight path takes it right over my apartment, but this was the first time I saw it with 4 air-launched Harpoons.

Does anyone know if IN crews are at Boeing facilities for training on the P-8I? I've seen KC-46 and F/A-18G test pilots but no IN crews as yet.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vasu raya »

if they can develop terrain following mode based on the El-2032 radar, many of the IAF's fighters are covered? and all the ones that IAF is retaining have autopilots.

Jaguars are being kept and if IAF say is interested in 2nd hand ones, why not buy ex-RAF Jaguars that are TERPROM equipped and recently built?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

6+6 makes 12 tankers. Will the numbers be sufficient in meeting the IAF commitments?

Can some one enlighten?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

I was under the impression that Isreal was prevented from exporting the ELM-2032 to India by Unkil. So how come the same unit equips the Maritime Jags.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Viv S »

Pratyush wrote:^^^

I was under the impression that Isreal was prevented from exporting the ELM-2032 to India by Unkil. So how come the same unit equips the Maritime Jags.
They blocked the AESA sale i.e. EL/M-2052 not the 2032.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Pratyush jee it was elta 2052:

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4941
2011-01-11 A report in Flight Global by Arie Egozi reveals that the United States has arm twisted Israel to withdraw the offering and block a potential sale of IAI's EL/M-2052 AESA radars to India. It is said that this action would have immediate impact. The U.S. Government is said to have been pressuring Israel for the ban for over two years.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vasu raya »

The sensitivity of a Chopper's stability to major shifts in the center of gravity doesn't permit more than 1500 kg be loaded on the pylons at any time in the case of Mi-17, however since 4-5 tons of payload capability exists with it, watch the hydraulic arm in this video at 4:56 secs handling ammunition, wouldn't such a arm help in the Mi-17?



when attached at the position that the rappelling rope is attached in the below picture, the arm can transfer reloads to the 6 hard points from the cargo hold during flight; carrying reloads in the cargo hold reduces the number of round trips needed

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... g.jpg.html
Image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by wig »

Army helicopters to get Ultra violet missile warning systems
Plans are afoot to equip helicopters of the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) with ultra-violet (UV)-based missile approach warning systems.

These systems, which have certain advantages over similar radar or infra-red-based detectors, are meant to warn pilots of an incoming missile to enable them to take counter-measures.

Defence public sector undertaking Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) is set to take up the project for developing the UV-based systems. “We are at the stage of contract negotiations with the Army,” BEL Director HN Ramakrisha told The Tribune here today.

“Deliveries will be done in 12 to 18 months after the contract is finalised,” he added. The estimated value of the contract is over Rs 350 crore.

UV-based systems provide early warning by detecting the UV energy produced by an incoming missile’s smoke plume and computing its distance and direction. These are stated to be better than IR systems at low attitudes and in cluttered environments, besides having a much lower probability of false alarms. These are also simpler than radar or IR systems and have low life cycle costs.

The Army plans to initially equip its fleet of Chetaks, which are meant for liaison, search- and-rescue and aerial recce, with UV systems though these can also be retrofitted on the Cheetahs and Dhruvs at a later stage.

These systems are primarily meant for warning against shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles. So far only the US, Israel, Germany and Sweden have such systems.

Developing missile warning systems for the Army also assumes significance in the backdrop of the government’s recent decision to give the Army control of all attack helicopters. The Mi25/35 helicopter gunships and some squadrons of Chetak helicopters outfitted with anti-tank missiles, though meant to support ground operations, are operated by the Air Force. Future acquisitions of attack helicopters will also be the Army’s domain.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121105/nation.htm#7
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

LCA, Jaguar IM & Sea Harrier use Elta 2032 in part or full. I believe the Jaguar IM upgrade package is being being rolled out to the rest of the fleet. There was an image somewhere showing 2032 inside the IM radome at HAL.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

vasu raya wrote:The sensitivity of a Chopper's stability to major shifts in the center of gravity doesn't permit more than 1500 kg be loaded on the pylons at any time in the case of Mi-17, however since 4-5 tons of payload capability exists with it, watch the hydraulic arm in this video at 4:56 secs handling ammunition, wouldn't such a arm help in the Mi-17?
I believe there will be several problems with such a method of reloading.

1. The arm and munition moving from inside the cabin to the wing would itself upset the stability and require the pilot to concentrate on maintaining stable flight. That means that he cannot hang around over the hostile area of action but will have to fly off to a safer zone so he does not get hit while the arm is doing its thing and he is struggling to maintain level, stable flight.

2. If he has to fly elsewhere he is losing time and burning up fuel and will have even less fuel to flying around the frontline after a reload. Perhaps it would be better to just fly somewhere safe and land at a pre arranged clearing for a reload. The pilot can have a pee and a smoke while the chopper is reloaded and refuelled.

3. Aircraft munitions are loaded from below the wing and done slowly and carefully, aligning slots or pins, securing them and them connecting the electrics/electronics. Rocket pods that are spent may have to be refilled individually. All these actions are precise like a surgical operation and trying to do it on a flying, pitching rolling helicopter would be hazardous. Imagine a 100 Kg bomb simply bumping against a contact and snapping it off because of movement. In the case of the artillery piece only the arm and munition are moving. The earth and the artillery piece are totally still. Even then the three rounds are lowered and aligned manually (at 5 min 48 sec in your video)

See this video of a helo being armed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-kmcxXyHhw
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vasu raya »

shiv wrote:1. The arm and munition moving from inside the cabin to the wing would itself upset the stability and require the pilot to concentrate on maintaining stable flight. That means that he cannot hang around over the hostile area of action but will have to fly off to a safer zone so he does not get hit while the arm is doing its thing and he is struggling to maintain level, stable flight.
The robotic arm's movement or rather its cg shift is accounted in the FCS of the Helo so it isn't an additional burden on the pilot.
shiv wrote:2. If he has to fly elsewhere he is losing time and burning up fuel and will have even less fuel to flying around the frontline after a reload. Perhaps it would be better to just fly somewhere safe and land at a pre arranged clearing for a reload. The pilot can have a pee and a smoke while the chopper is reloaded and refuelled.
The downside of multiple trips in the same flight path in a warzone is they could be targeted by manpads even if the first sorties are a surprise, I would rather have one of the inner pylons as a wet one on which a refueling probe can be mounted, the kind seen on the C-130j.
shiv wrote:3. Aircraft munitions are loaded from below the wing and done slowly and carefully, aligning slots or pins, securing them and them connecting the electrics/electronics. Rocket pods that are spent may have to be refilled individually. All these actions are precise like a surgical operation and trying to do it on a flying, pitching rolling helicopter would be hazardous. Imagine a 100 Kg bomb simply bumping against a contact and snapping it off because of movement. In the case of the artillery piece only the arm and munition are moving. The earth and the artillery piece are totally still. Even then the three rounds are lowered and aligned manually (at 5 min 48 sec in your video)
The actual loading is done at the pylon level not individual rockets or missiles, so a whole clutch is put on a transfer pylon aligned against the wing pylon, bridged or linked first and then the armed mount is transferred. This transfer pylon is the end part of the robotic arm, and it can have stub wings aiding in the pylon alignment much like we see in IFR alignment. For a Mi-17 sized helo, the rockets (only) could be belt fed instead of manual loading
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by sum »

From Livefist. The CBU-105 arrives:
U.S. firm Textron Defense Systems has begun deliveries of 512 CBU-105 sensor fuzed munitions to India. The company began deliveries of the weapon system to the U.S. Air Force in September -- it is a foreign military sale (FMS) to India and therefore needs to be routed through the applicable U.S. service -- and will complete deliveries by the end of the year. Deliveries to the Indian Air Force by the U.S. Air Force are likely to begin early 2013.

A 2010 government to government contract worth $257.73-million was cleared after India expressed interest in the weapon in 2008. Textron announced the contract win and began production for the Indian order in February 2011. The weapon is likely to be deployed from the IAF's Jaguar strike aircraft and Su-30MKI air dominance fighters.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

512 is a very low number. they are likely to be wrapped in cotton wool and kept to intercept a PLA armour div if it makes to mahipalpur or rohini in outskirts of dilli.

by hook or crook, we need similar cheap desi submunitions to be used liberally by all strike fighters.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_23370 »

Its just the beginning. The follow on orders will increase it to a good 1000+ but an indigenous low cost alternative is of required.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by chandanus »

Bheeshma wrote:Its just the beginning. The follow on orders will increase it to a good 1000+ but an indigenous low cost alternative is of required.

The desi version was developed quiet a while back..not sure if demo was given or not ..IAF rejected it on price grounds !!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_23370 »

What is the desi version? IAF needs loads and also 10,000+ sudharshan's.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by chandanus »

Bheeshma wrote:What is the desi version? IAF needs loads and also 10,000+ sudharshan's.
Desi version of in service cluster bomb produce by some X OFB!!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

vasu raya wrote: The robotic arm's movement or rather its cg shift is accounted in the FCS of the Helo so it isn't an additional burden on the pilot.
Oh of course how silly of me to not figure that out.
The downside of multiple trips in the same flight path in a warzone is they could be targeted by manpads even if the first sorties are a surprise, I would rather have one of the inner pylons as a wet one on which a refueling probe can be mounted, the kind seen on the C-130j.
Yes yes. refuelling in the war zone would be a nice idea
The actual loading is done at the pylon level not individual rockets or missiles, so a whole clutch is put on a transfer pylon aligned against the wing pylon, bridged or linked first and then the armed mount is transferred. This transfer pylon is the end part of the robotic arm, and it can have stub wings aiding in the pylon alignment much like we see in IFR alignment. For a Mi-17 sized helo, the rockets (only) could be belt fed instead of manual loading
Ah an entire loaded pylon is lifted out of the Mi 17 door attached to the wing by a robotic arm. How innovative. And the other pylon can be dropped off or even better it is retrieved and reloaded inside the cabin. Very nice.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Victor »

CBU-105 seems like a very complicated weapon, each with multiple timed rockets, parachutes and 40 heat-seeking, armor-piercing projectiles. It is not a simple cluster bomb.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Will »

shiv wrote:
vasu raya wrote: The robotic arm's movement or rather its cg shift is accounted in the FCS of the Helo so it isn't an additional burden on the pilot.
Oh of course how silly of me to not figure that out.
The downside of multiple trips in the same flight path in a warzone is they could be targeted by manpads even if the first sorties are a surprise, I would rather have one of the inner pylons as a wet one on which a refueling probe can be mounted, the kind seen on the C-130j.
Yes yes. refuelling in the war zone would be a nice idea
The actual loading is done at the pylon level not individual rockets or missiles, so a whole clutch is put on a transfer pylon aligned against the wing pylon, bridged or linked first and then the armed mount is transferred. This transfer pylon is the end part of the robotic arm, and it can have stub wings aiding in the pylon alignment much like we see in IFR alignment. For a Mi-17 sized helo, the rockets (only) could be belt fed instead of manual loading
Ah an entire loaded pylon is lifted out of the Mi 17 door attached to the wing by a robotic arm. How innovative. And the other pylon can be dropped off or even better it is retrieved and reloaded inside the cabin. Very nice.

Shiv you are getting crabby in your old age :) :) :) :)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

the iron man3 trailer has another idea. the pylons are fixed inside the doors. the doors open to form wings, weapons are fired, door closed again to reload from inside.

watch from 1:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UMVJ3wRqDg
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

Victor wrote:CBU-105 seems like a very complicated weapon, each with multiple timed rockets, parachutes and 40 heat-seeking, armor-piercing projectiles. It is not a simple cluster bomb.
OFB manufactures the BL755 under license http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... n/rb/9.htm & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755

Sensor Fused Weapon takes the game to a whole new level.

Edit - Added later - Sitaphal takes naming to a whole new level :D
Last edited by tsarkar on 06 Nov 2012 20:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Will wrote: Shiv you are getting crabby in your old age :) :) :) :)
Seriously I think there is a huge gap between the mental picture I have of an armed helicopter in a war zone and the visualization of that helicopter suddenly sticking out an arm that engages a wing and reloads weapons over the battlefield. I mean I have see such stuff only in the movies.

Even if such an arm could be designed and fitted and even if the FCS could handle the flight with the arm moving about I have a few questions
1. How long would the reloading process take. 30 seconds? What if the helo gets hit by a SAM in those 30 seconds. Or would 1500 kg of munitions be reloaded in 5 seconds by a super duper robotic arm?
2. Would the FCS be able to handle violent maneuvers while reloading or would the pilot have to fly steady? I would like to meet the creators of FCS that controls a helo that is maneuvering while a robotic arm reloads a 1500 kg set of munitions on to a wing.
3. If the helo had a wet pylon where would the refuelling get done? Refuelling requires steady flight at altitude for several minutes.

I mean the ideas were suggested and I just expressed my views - but if I am told that it is all feasible and perfectly possible then who am I to continue arguing? Not crabby. Simply astounded. To mind this is science fiction. Not science. I think the idea is a bad one. My opinion. But i was being polite. Not crabby.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:the iron man3 trailer has another idea. the pylons are fixed inside the doors. the doors open to form wings, weapons are fired, door closed again to reload from inside.

watch from 1:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UMVJ3wRqDg

Works well in the movies.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

chandanus wrote:The desi version was developed quiet a while back..not sure if demo was given or not ..IAF rejected it on price grounds !!!
I think that the desi version is still under development and the current order is a stopgap measure and also to get a look at their development. Any link to corroborate what you say ???
chandanus wrote:Desi version of in service cluster bomb produce by some X OFB!!!
Are you sure that OFB manufactures cluster bombs ???
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