Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

SagarAg wrote: Hmm..so Shiv saar can't we have 3 camera.
Actually they had more than 3, but the scenario to me looked like there must have been a console and a controller selecting which scene from which camera would be broadcast (live). I am sure they have all the footage but it will need to be edited and joined up separately to show everything.

However I am sure they could show instant replays like cricket, showing a camera angle/scene that was missed earlier - but this was where they failed.

Having said that the IAF are relentless and dead on time. They give no time for thinking between attacks. As soon as one is done the next one is screaming down for the attack. I am sure they could take this at a more relaxed pace and let camera crews/editors do a better job. But this is only the second time a live show has been done. i think all other shows in the past have not been live. So I would cut them some slack.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by manjgu »

i am happy if they are missing some targets !! i know for sure its not rigged . I dont want a Paki style air show with explosive fitted inside each target ( set to explode on a cue irrespective of where the bombs impact) .

a demo i seriously want to be included ..is like a moving target ( in the shape of a train ) or a convoy of trucks ( remotely controlled)...blasted by the planes... not just static targets...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Austin »

shiv wrote: Then the LCA fired an R 73 at a flare. I think the missile missed the flare,
I realised that both LCA and Mig-29 fired at the flares which were put by Mig-21 but both missed it or i was think if the warhead was deacticated.

I remember few year back an R-73 fired by Mig-29 or was it Su-30 turned off 90 * and hit at a flare and the warhead exploded it was spectacular.

Perhaps the R-73 are designed to reject flares or the Warhead was programmed to trigger for the exercise or both the R-73 was crappy and didnt do as it is suppose to.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by naird »

Austin wrote:
shiv wrote:
Perhaps the R-73 are designed to reject flares or the Warhead was programmed to trigger for the exercise or both the R-73 was crappy and didnt do as it is suppose to.

Believe R73 has proximity fuse..so its okay to miss if its within the acceptable range. However all said and done - did not dig the way how su's aborted their target and Mig's missed their as well..
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Surya »

Having said that the IAF are relentless and dead on time. They give no time for thinking between attacks. As soon as one is done the next one is screaming down for the attack.
method behind the madness :)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by nachiket »

naird wrote: However all said and done - did not dig the way how su's aborted their target and Mig's missed their as well..
I'm trying to imagine what the headlines would have been if the LCA's had done that.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Surya »

Unfair to curse DD without actually seeing even 1 minute. Just like blaming Hindu terrorists without seeing even one act of terrorism. They showed the whole show for 4 hours . I have about 3 and a half hours.
Ok I am at fault - will comment after watching the whole thing
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by SagarAg »

nachiket wrote:
naird wrote: However all said and done - did not dig the way how su's aborted their target and Mig's missed their as well..
I'm trying to imagine what the headlines would have been if the LCA's had done that.
Forget about headlines, I am not even daring to think about the bombardments from LCA critics here on our very own BRF. :mrgreen:
shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Surya wrote:
Having said that the IAF are relentless and dead on time. They give no time for thinking between attacks. As soon as one is done the next one is screaming down for the attack.
method behind the madness :)
Absolutely. That is why the attack bits get over in 15-20 mins with all the targets smouldering, leaving the rest of the time for music, Sarang etc. Let alone Doordarshan camerapersons miseries - these quick back on back attacks had an effect on my recording. I use an analog converter to record and the software can crash unexpectedly - so I was worried about recording 4 hours in one go thinking that I could lose the lot. Sure enough I lost the whole daytime attack segment - of all the attacking fighters hitting (or not) their targets.
shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Surya wrote:
Unfair to curse DD without actually seeing even 1 minute. Just like blaming Hindu terrorists without seeing even one act of terrorism. They showed the whole show for 4 hours . I have about 3 and a half hours.
Ok I am at fault - will comment after watching the whole thing
Surya you didn't start the fire
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Surya »

that's ok shiv but I did make unfair early judgement

and that was wrong on my part.
member_20067
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20067 »

you can give as many as arguments as you want --- rapidness of the attack... lack of visibility of weapon's path... etc... that does not explain the quality of camera equipment... they are definitely not using any filter...getting easily blinded by sun... and dust... this bit is true even during republic day parade long shots...it is not the fault of the cameraman .. but people at helms at DD
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote:you can give as many as arguments as you want --- rapidness of the attack... lack of visibility of weapon's path... etc... that does not explain the quality of camera equipment... they are definitely not using any filter...getting easily blinded by sun... and dust... this bit is true even during republic day parade long shots...it is not the fault of the cameraman .. but people at helms at DD
So you are using the opportunity of Iron fist to vent your ire on the frustrations you felt on Republic day? Incidentally which brand of lens or what filter can see through dust?
member_20067
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20067 »

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:you can give as many as arguments as you want --- rapidness of the attack... lack of visibility of weapon's path... etc... that does not explain the quality of camera equipment... they are definitely not using any filter...getting easily blinded by sun... and dust... this bit is true even during republic day parade long shots...it is not the fault of the cameraman .. but people at helms at DD
So you are using the opportunity of Iron fist to vent your ire on the frustrations you felt on Republic day? Incidentally which brand of lens or what filter can see through dust?
I dont want to feed into your flame bait.. static camera and television camera both uses lenses to capture light and process image.. and theory of use of filters to cut down sunlight glare is same in both the cases... there are quite a few great photographers in this forum.. including VJ and Yogi ... they can educate you more..
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

Graduated skylight filters.
shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote:they can educate you more..
Indeed. I am sure others can but not you, notwithstanding your expert comments. You said you watched a live feed of iron Fist. Perhaps if you had educated the forum about where the live feed was coming from others could have done a better educated job than me of recording. I was unable to find a live feed on DD and you are the only person on this forum to say that you watched live feed.
Prithwiraj wrote:I watched the show over live stream .. but Celine Deon Song as background score was so 1990s... they should have at-least selected.. Alisha's "Made in India" if they really wanted 90s song...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20067 »

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:they can educate you more..
Indeed. I am sure others can but not you, notwithstanding your expert comments. You said you watched a live feed of iron Fist. Perhaps if you had educated the forum about where the live feed was coming from others could have done a better educated job than me of recording. I was unable to find a live feed on DD and you are the only person on this forum to say that you watched live feed.
Prithwiraj wrote:I watched the show over live stream .. but Celine Deon Song as background score was so 1990s... they should have at-least selected.. Alisha's "Made in India" if they really wanted 90s song...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:Graduated skylight filters.
The question was
which brand of lens or what filter can see through dust
member_20067
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20067 »

may be this thread started by VJ can help you
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... ain/354216
Last edited by member_20067 on 23 Feb 2013 07:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

Afaik dd does not even have a single hd bcast channel. In this day and age thats very trailing edge. All the others have a few hd channels each..even saas bahu serials comes hd now.

Lots of wildlife film makers deal with challenging light and dust conditions and produce good output as seen on tv
shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote: .. how is brand important..? I could have given you 10 brand names.
I doubt it and you will have to live with that opinion. Tough.

Incidentally did anyone else catch a live feed of the show? I found only DD news on live feed from the link that was posted earlier (and below)
http://livetvchannelsinfree.net/ddnational.html
shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:Afaik dd does not even have a single hd bcast channel. In this day and age thats very trailing edge. All the others have a few hd channels each..even saas bahu serials comes hd now.

Lots of wildlife film makers deal with challenging light and dust conditions and produce good output as seen on tv
Yes but DD is free to air. Beggars can't be choosers.

Light that does not pass through dust will not reach the camera.

If something could see through dust it would be useful for tank warfare and other warfare
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20067 »

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:Afaik dd does not even have a single hd bcast channel. In this day and age thats very trailing edge. All the others have a few hd channels each..even saas bahu serials comes hd now.

Lots of wildlife film makers deal with challenging light and dust conditions and produce good output as seen on tv
Yes but DD is free to air. Beggars can't be choosers.

Light that does not pass through dust will not reach the camera.

If something could see through dust it would be useful for tank warfare and other warfare
DD is not free.. it is funded by tax payers money .. and ad revenue... other channels don't get tax funded programming.. sorry .. but you often dont know what you are talking about.. you have to live with that opinion
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote: DD is not free.. it is funded by tax payers money .. and ad revenue... other channels don't get tax funded programming.. sorry .. but you often dont know what you are talking about.. you have to live with that opinion
Read again. DD is free_to_air. Like opinions.

For example my opinions are not free, You need to pay for internet access. But once you get past that, They are free for you to read, like or dislike. How you read them is your business.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Yogi_G »

I had all the streams ready yday of 2 sites, but right at the time of the Yell Cee Yea, my boss came and stood behind me chatting with a PYT in the next cube about some goddarned lunch plans for next week :evil: . by the time he left and I restarted the stream both sites told me that the stream was not available, both danged sites used the same danged stream.... :((, they finally came back on air, some thoughts, overall a great show.

1. The SU-30 technical problem cited I felt was deliberate, it came across to me as part of the act. It was immediately announced that the mirages would come in next. I was wondering if they were enacting a probable scenario when in a strike package if a particular aircraft develops a technical snag another multi role backup aircraft would take over (in this case the mirage). Now I am not aware if the mirages took out the same target as the sukhois but just wondering if it was all part of the act.
2. No rigged-to-blow targets this time around. I remember seeing some videos in youtube where the targets would blow up even though they dint appear to be hit by munition and many commented that they were rigged to blow.
3. Some pretty obvious misses made even made more embarrasing by the commentary by some motarhama. One such one was the akash ganga skydivers team, the first dude landed pretty badly on his bum in a very akward position and the commentary motarhama said "As you can see he has landed very well" or something to that effect.
4. I think it was a mig-27 which missed a land target in a big lit up circle and the commentary motorhama said "as you can see the target is completely obliterated" in Hindi. Ugh!
5. The orchestra picked to play the "Star wars" theme. Duh!! I mean, you have the whole world tuned in to see you and you play an american movie theme?
6. Great job by the IAF in using Terminator music :mrgreen:, I mean of all the music available here . Just wondering here if they will run into any copyright trouble here. For the part on the longewala battle they dint use a single clip from the "Border" movie, what gives. Celine Dion music in a live fire exercising was pretty bad.
7. The jets would come racing in and pound a target and the cameraman would immediately focus on a target group whose average age would be some 75+, pretty dampener that, total lack of any awe or reaction in them, remember to pump in adrenaline and steroids into the president in the next iron fist.
8. I am surprised they had so many unguided rocket attacks given that the audience was 2-3 kms from the targets. Out of control rockets are a pretty big danger.

I am pretty impressed with what DD has done here given their reputation for outdated technology, they are also improving. Now just itching to see the whole thing in complete leisure to enjoy each and every aircraft.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by putnanja »

Was the SU-30 "technical problems" due to the SU-30 crash earlier during rehearsals? I believe Tarmak007 had mentioned in facebook that it happened after the bomb was released or something along those lines? So, was it decided that the MKIs won't repeat those routines till the CoI was over?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

putnanja wrote:Was the SU-30 "technical problems" due to the SU-30 crash earlier during rehearsals? I believe Tarmak007 had mentioned in facebook that it happened after the bomb was released or something along those lines? So, was it decided that the MKIs won't repeat those routines till the CoI was over?
I wondered about that too.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Yogi_G wrote: 2. No rigged-to-blow targets this time around. I remember seeing some videos in youtube where the targets would blow up even though they dint appear to be hit by munition and many commented that they were rigged to blow.
I have posted the largest collection of those on Youtube from a Vayu Shakti exercise held for Rajiv Gandhi when he was PM. It was an edited video and the visuals were excellent and visibly fake.

It seemed to me that this time DD were trying to avoid the criticism they faced in 2011. In those videos the camera stayed focused on the target. When the hit was true the effect was spectacular. If it was a miss the camera missed it. Besides the long seconds ticking by waiting for the target to go up was visually boring for everyone except jingos like us I guess. This time they tried to be clever and focused on the receding aircraft or something and missed the actual hit. They often showed the UAV IR camera footage after that but the target boundaries were generally invisible in that footage. They really need to have a picture in picture of approaching/receding aircraft and target seen together. Esp for PGMs the release is rarely seen. By the time LCA became visible, the PGM had already been released

Worse than all that was (IMO) my error in losing even the good footage in my recording. :oops:
I'm hoping that DD will repeat the show sometime
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by symontk »

HAL's new facility in Varthur road is getting a paint work. They are going to put a name too. The word "FIGHTER" is already painted by afternoon today. May be they will complete it by evening. I believe they will put "HINDUSTHAN" in front of the "FIGHTER" as I saw a "N" in light markings
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by keshavchandra »

symontk wrote:HAL's new facility in Varthur road is getting a paint work. They are going to put a name too. The word "FIGHTER" is already painted by afternoon today. May be they will complete it by evening. I believe they will put "HINDUSTHAN" in front of the "FIGHTER" as I saw a "N" in light markings
Or may be Indian fighter.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

Going through Kedar's as always wonderful pictures, noticed the following -

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 1.jpg.html Not all MiG-21bis & Ms are upgraded to Bison standards. No "U" on tail.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 1.jpg.html rocket boosted runway penetrators

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 3.jpg.html is this MiG-27 towing a target?

I always thought IAF operated skid equipped Dhruv but maybe the Sarangs are an exception http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 1.jpg.html and operational units use wheeled versions http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 0.jpg.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 5.jpg.html I always thought Mi-25/35 carried Shtrum missiles but this helicopter carries launch rails of the old Falanga/Skorpion missile http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... 209228.jpg
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Austin »

tsarkar wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 5.jpg.html I always thought Mi-25/35 carried Shtrum missiles but this helicopter carries launch rails of the old Falanga/Skorpion missile http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... 209228.jpg
Are these the upgraded Mi-35 with EL-OP sensor suite or the older ones ?

I guess the high visibility colors are for the Iron Fist exercise
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

Looks un-upgraded. No EO suite. The 12.7mm x 4 machine gun has been removed. It does have the missile guidance system, though.

This is what upgraded Mi-35 with EO suite & Shtrum missile looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/torqueavia ... otostream/

Looks like an attempt to dazzle camouflage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage similar to http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... r.JPG.html but appears symmetrical to be effective.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Austin »

Now that we have pictures to compare , me thnks its the upgraded one because just below the gun that has been removed I see the round EO pod , find it hard to be sure
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

The EO ball is mounted on the starboard side of the nose. It is not there in the Iron Fist helicopter.

The port side of the nose upgraded & unupgraded helicopters have a pod, that you're mistaking for a EO suite. The pod is probably associated with SACLOS missile guidance.

Here is the upgraded helicopter with pod on port of nose & EO suite starboard of nose. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Akbar.jpg and http://citizenside-cache.citizenside.co ... copter.jpg
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Austin »

tsarkar that makes sense , Thanks.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

vasu raya
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vasu raya »

The Assault landing technique is a great feature, hopefully they make the MTA's do it if fit with some turboprop engines
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Rupak »

tsarkar and austin
while i cannot read the serial number, i suspect that the Mi35 with the dazzle cammo is one of the 35U trainers. they were never gun equipped but retained the capability of fire the Falanga.

i was equally surprised to see the IAF dhruv with wheels but it seems they operate both = http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1231/dhruv331.jpg

any idea how many Dhruvs the navy operates? i have seen numbers IN701 to 710 and then IN901
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