Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Prem Kumar »

And they have a photo of a B2 in the report :roll:

Made me wonder if any of the rest of the report is true - like the AEW&C will be "completed" in 84 months, whatever that means.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Misraji »

Prem Kumar wrote: And they have a photo of a B2 in the report :roll:
You mean nEUROn UCAV.... :D

--Ashish
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Prem Kumar wrote:
And they have a photo of a B2 in the report :roll:
Arre? Hawaai jahaaj hai na? Why split hairs? :P
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

looks like two more IL76PS90A are in the works. for just 2 awacs, there is no point in a whole new program for A330 or 737 nor any noises of it.
passable for the IAF given our compact defensible area.

we definitely need a lot of A330 tankers though, for long loitering patrol missions and VVIP command posts/AWACS/AEW...no escaping that fact.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vasu raya »

The recent news that VVIP choppers can land directly at Raj Bhavan etc is good news from a security sense, however I wish the HAL's LUH will help ferry the traveling scientists as well. The Arjun program director's car accident in Rajasthan is probably no accident and we should extend the traveling protection to all his likes.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Philip »

Looking towards the future,once the MTA rolls out,we should seriously think of AEW and other variants ,like ASW/MRP,ELINT/SIGINT,etc. The aircraft will be much larger than the Embraers we are acquiring for our desi version,ablw to carry more eqpt. internally as well as having better range and endurance.By 2020 we should also have some HALE UAV prototypes developed too.The US/west are polanning UAVs that can stay aloft for months.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_23455 »

vasu raya wrote:The Arjun program director's car accident in Rajasthan is probably no accident.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

the small IAI legacy type civilian regn jets we see flying in and out of HAL airport are likely shuttles that take teams of defence scientists between cities like hyd, delhi, blr and test sites like balasore, pokhran, ahmednagar etc.

they are probably not running ELINT ops on ORR munnas trolling on brf.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Hiten »

Use Of Composites In India's Aircraft Programs - SARAS & LCA Tejas

http://www.aame.in/2012/12/use-of-compo ... craft.html
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vasu raya »

RajitO wrote:
vasu raya wrote:The Arjun program director's car accident in Rajasthan is probably no accident.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Maybe I was trolling :| , accidents in desert areas hmm OK, though really don't know the exact circumstances. we know what Iran is going through for different reasons.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Vipul »

MoD rejects HAL's proposal to build basic trainer.

In a sharp rebuff to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), the ministry of defence ( MoD) has rejected the public sector aerospace company’s proposal to build basic trainer aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF). This comes after the MoD discovered that HAL-built trainers would cost twice as much as proven aircraft procured from the international market.

After a fatal crash in July 2009, the IAF had grounded its entire basic trainer fleet of vintage HPT-32 Deepak aircraft. To train rookie pilots, the IAF initiated a fast-track procurement of 75 trainers on the international market. Sensing an opportunity, HAL entered the fray, proposing it develop an indigenous trainer aircraft, dubbed the Hindustan Turbo Trainer - 40 (HTT-40), and manufacture 106 of those for the IAF.But when the MoD compared prices, it found that thousands of crore extra would be paid for HAL-built trainers. In September, the MoD summarily scrapped HAL’s proposal to build the HTT-40.

“Why should we pay HAL Rs 60 crore per basic trainer, when we can buy proven trainers from abroad for Rs 30 crore?” an MoD official told Business Standard.

“We would be willing to pay higher rates to build indigenous capability in strategic defence equipment. But can HAL argue that the capability to build basic trainers is strategically vital,” noted the official.

On May 24, 2012, the MoD signed a contract with Swiss aerospace manufacturer, Pilatus Aircraft Ltd, to buy 75 PC-7 Mark II basic trainers for some Rs 2,900 crore, defence minister AK Antony told parliament in August.

Now, with HAL’s proposal to build 106 trainers rejected, as many as 181 Pilatus trainers may be bought.

Contacted for comments, HAL did not deny its trainer aircraft project had been shot down. “We treat all MOD issues/proposals as confidential… All our projects are conceived with national interest in mind though, at times, some of those take time to fructify,” responded a HAL spokesperson by email.

But HAL continues to dabble, so far unsuccessfully, in developing a trainer. Its long-running project to build an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) has sputtered along for 13 years already. The IJT project —which had its first flight in 2003 — underwent a serious setback last year when a trainer crashed, fortunately without loss of life.

The IJT, to which pilots will graduate after completing “Stage-1” training on the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainer, is intended to replace the obsolescent Kiran Mark II. After “Stage-2” training on the IJT, pilots will graduate to “Stage-3” training on the Hawk advanced jet trainer. Only after that will they fly IAF frontline combat aircraft.

The decision to buy the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II has had its own share of controversy. One of the contenders for this contract, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI), protested in writing that Pilatus should be disqualified, as it had submitted an incomplete bid. That would have given KAI the contract, as the next-cheapest, fully-compliant bidder. For ten months, the contract was on hold as the MoD investigated KAI’s complaint.

Seoul piled on the pressure, with South Korean defence minister, Kim Kwan-jin, personally writing to Antony requesting a “high-level review” of the “allegations on irregularity” in the deal. But that did not work. On May 2, 2012, Antony informed Parliament that KAI’s petition “has been found to be devoid of merit.”

The Pilatus PC-7 Mark II is expected to overcome key drawbacks in the HPT-32, which did not have an ejection system; in emergencies, pilots ejected manually. Poor instrumentation and avionics restricted training to good weather. The HPT-32 had no recording equipment, so instructors never knew when trainee pilots, flying solo, had violated flying procedures. The PC-7 Mark II is capable of aerobatics, instrument and night flying and tactical operations. It is a hybrid aircraft, with a PC-9 airframe mated with a smaller, PC-7 engine to lower procurement, flying and maintenance costs. It is in service with several air forces, including South Africa and Malaysia.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vic »

I agree with MoD, everything except nuclear wapons should be imported.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

HAL should first deliver the IJT and build some brand first.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by wig »

BEL’s radar warning systems fail to take off

A project to develop an indigenous radar warning receiver system for the IAF’s combat aircraft, executed by state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) at a cost of Rs 521 crore, has failed to take-off.

Besides delays, out of the 336 systems developed by BEL, only 73 could actually be integrated on aircraft and that too seven years after their procurement. Worse, out of these 73 systems, the performance of as many as 69 systems was found to be unreliable or unsatisfactory.

A radar warning receiver (RWR) alerts pilots about the presence/emission of hostile radars, enabling him to employ suitable counter-measures. These systems are deemed critical for mission success as well as for the survival of aircraft in combat environment.

In order to standardise RWRs across the IAF fleet, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) awarded a contract to BEL in 2005 for Rs 521 crore to develop RWRs. These were to be delivered by September 2010 and were to be integrated on 10 different types of aircraft.

The MoD also contracted Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the integration of these systems of on six types of aircraft at an additional cost of Rs 36 crore. Integration on remaining four types was to be undertaken separately as part of upgradation projects.

Audit scrutiny revealed that while BEL supplied 94 per cent of the RWRs by 2007, a 30-month delay in signing the contract with HAL resulted in the expiry of warranty of the RWRs even before they could be integrated with the aircraft. Till 2012, only 73 RWRs were integrated on just four types of aircraft.

Though the MoD had claimed earlier this year that the RWRs were proven and reliable systems with average serviceability exceeding 80 per cent, audit brought out that just about 5 per cent of the integrated systems functioned effectively.

poor performance

Out of the 336 systems developed by state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited, only 73 could actually be integrated on aircraft and that too seven years after their procurement
Till 2012, only 73 RWRs were integrated on just four types of aircraft
Out of these 73 systems, the performance of as many as 69 systems was found to be unreliable or unsatisfactory
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121219/nation.htm#10
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by abhik »

They should have canceled it on the grounds of duplication of efforts rather than cost. First foreign equipment is bought which hal gets to assemble by default. Then they start their own program to develop the exact same thing in parallel. I think it is a good thing it was nipped in the bud before we reached a scenario like light utility helicopter where the development is at too advanced stage for it to be canceled but not enough for the import program to be canceled.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by sum »

^^ The Tarang RWR is a failure then?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Rupesh »

I don't think so. The news report does not appear credible, wait for CAG audit report.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

DAMN IT!

It is bad news, HAL had gone forward with the HTT-40 development. They even had the first metal cutting a few days back. They had a lot of tenders going out.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

But something doesn't add up.
In September, the MoD summarily scrapped HAL’s proposal to build the HTT-40.
HAL had tenders for various HTT-40 parts as late as 1 week back:

D/IMM/5461/7R/1037/2012 07 Dec 2012 Request for Quotation(RFQ) for supply of Raw Materials for Hindustan Turboprop Trainer Aircraft (HTT-40) –Development Programme.

D/IMM/HTT-40/5461/03/14161 23 Nov 2012 Development and Supply of Oxygen System for Hindustan
Corrigendurm-01 14 Dec 2012 Turboprop Trainer Aircraft (HTT-40) –Development Programme.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by merlin »

indranilroy wrote:But something doesn't add up.
In September, the MoD summarily scrapped HAL’s proposal to build the HTT-40.
HAL had tenders for various HTT-40 parts as late as 1 week back:

D/IMM/5461/7R/1037/2012 07 Dec 2012 Request for Quotation(RFQ) for supply of Raw Materials for Hindustan Turboprop Trainer Aircraft (HTT-40) –Development Programme.

D/IMM/HTT-40/5461/03/14161 23 Nov 2012 Development and Supply of Oxygen System for Hindustan
Corrigendurm-01 14 Dec 2012 Turboprop Trainer Aircraft (HTT-40) –Development Programme.
Maybe they are funding this using their own money...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Harshad »

indranilroy wrote:
DAMN IT!

It is bad news, HAL had gone forward with the HTT-40 development. They even had the first metal cutting a few days back. They had a lot of tenders going out.
On the contrary its good that MoD has made a quick decision based on the various factors that it considers relevant. MoD is not stringing HAL along the rosy path only for the trainer to be rejected later. HAL has plenty of work going on for them.

HAL is not a babe in the woods and MoD is not a big bad wolf as is the slant of certain news reports.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Harshad »

indranilroy wrote:
DAMN IT!

It is bad news, HAL had gone forward with the HTT-40 development. They even had the first metal cutting a few days back. They had a lot of tenders going out.
On the contrary its good that MoD has made a quick decision based on the various factors that it considers relevant. MoD is not stringing HAL along the rosy path only for the trainer to be rejected later. HAL has plenty of work going on for them.

HAL is not a babe in the woods and MoD is not a big bad wolf as is the slant of certain news reports.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Amitabh »

keshavchandra wrote:Suu Kyi praises Indian Air Force pilots for being ‘professional’ and ‘sweet’
“I enjoyed my time in India thoroughly from beginning to end, particularly impressed by the Air Force Pilots who flew me back. They are the kind of professional military men I like to see,” said the 67-year-old Suu Kyi who was placed under house arrest for 15 of the past 21 years on different occasions.

She added: “They (IAF) are very very sweet. So very soldierly in the best kind of way, officers and gentlemen. 8)
Embraer Legacy or Boeing BBJ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

I thought BBJ was reserved for the highest and mightiest of the land like MMS, The Family and so on...true kommanders of the legion, not foreign guests.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_20292 »

wig wrote:BEL’s radar warning systems fail to take off

A project to develop an indigenous radar warning receiver system for the IAF’s combat aircraft, executed by state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) at a cost of Rs 521 crore, has failed to take-off.

Besides delays, out of the 336 systems developed by BEL, only 73 could actually be integrated on aircraft and that too seven years after their procurement. Worse, out of these 73 systems, the performance of as many as 69 systems was found to be unreliable or unsatisfactory.

A radar warning receiver (RWR) alerts pilots about the presence/emission of hostile radars, enabling him to employ suitable counter-measures. These systems are deemed critical for mission success as well as for the survival of aircraft in combat environment.

In order to standardise RWRs across the IAF fleet, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) awarded a contract to BEL in 2005 for Rs 521 crore to develop RWRs. These were to be delivered by September 2010 and were to be integrated on 10 different types of aircraft.

The MoD also contracted Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the integration of these systems of on six types of aircraft at an additional cost of Rs 36 crore. Integration on remaining four types was to be undertaken separately as part of upgradation projects.

Audit scrutiny revealed that while BEL supplied 94 per cent of the RWRs by 2007, a 30-month delay in signing the contract with HAL resulted in the expiry of warranty of the RWRs even before they could be integrated with the aircraft. Till 2012, only 73 RWRs were integrated on just four types of aircraft.

Though the MoD had claimed earlier this year that the RWRs were proven and reliable systems with average serviceability exceeding 80 per cent, audit brought out that just about 5 per cent of the integrated systems functioned effectively.

poor performance

Out of the 336 systems developed by state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited, only 73 could actually be integrated on aircraft and that too seven years after their procurement
Till 2012, only 73 RWRs were integrated on just four types of aircraft
Out of these 73 systems, the performance of as many as 69 systems was found to be unreliable or unsatisfactory
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121219/nation.htm#10


PAGING KARAN M...IS THIS TRUE?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vic »

HAL seems to have done one better on HTT-40, even compared to LCA & IJT. HAL wants double the cost of an basic aircraft produced in "Switzerland" inspite of the fact HTT will be screwed together from foreign components. My conspiracy theory is that nobody can be that incompetent. It seems like a system attempt to destroy Indian indigenous capacity. Read:-

Kill IJT to give more orders for Hawk.

Kill LCA or drag it out to give more orders to upgrades & imports

Kill HTT to help Swiss Bank accounts err Swiss Trainer

Kill indigenous RWR for encouraging imports in the only field where we have something to show

Drag even the launch of MLH

Delay Rustom for helping Israeli UAVs

Delay RTA for MTA etc etc

It is T-90 saga repeated all over again and again. This seems to be the whole point of getting a Babu from ONGC to head HAL, so that he take steps to degrade HAL from even assembly to direct imports.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Singha »

Old timers might remember cdot which in early 1990s was filled with the elite of our engineering talent along with some others like barc.

Cdot was progressively destroyed until nothing much was left and iti is in bed with alcalu and other east india cos to bolt together telecom gear

Cheen stuck to their guns and today have zte and huawei global level giants, ofcourse they had their telecom revolution mich esrlier than india but it must be noted they made sure these national champions did not perish and infact thrived enough to today pose a reverse threat.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_23455 »

Note to China...it gets far worse for you

...I like how the Boeing PR guys make a point about delivering 10 days ahead of schedule!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Vipul wrote:MoD rejects HAL's proposal to build basic trainer.


“Why should we pay HAL Rs 60 crore per basic trainer, when we can buy proven trainers from abroad for Rs 30 crore?” an MoD official told Business Standard.

“We would be willing to pay higher rates to build indigenous capability in strategic defence equipment. But can HAL argue that the capability to build basic trainers is strategically vital,” noted the official.
Like I said in another thread, I am gradually veering around to the conclusion that India is not planning to build a totally domestic MIC. An MIC means that we will have surplus military manufacturing industries and we will either have to make war to keep them in work, or export to nations who will make war. The latter is getting really difficult. I suspect that Indian planners have reached the conclusion that since exporters are falling over themselves to sell and dropping prices to compete with the 50 centers who are eating away the cheapo markets, India is importing arms and equipment left right and center - like a 1980s couple returning from a visit to he Gulf loaded with gods from phoren. And to hell with sanctions. If X does not sell Y will always come drooling.

At least that is what things look like to me...

It won;t be long before China offers us arms.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Aditya_V »

Shiv Ji- this like Vijay nagar kingdom relying on Arabian Horses who finally favouring the Ummah and Umah exploited this vulnerability, so is today's MOD.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Victor »

A proper company would have known decades ahead of time that the old trainer they made would require a replacement in 'x' years and they would have the project at least on the drawing board, ready to go when needed. Not so HAL. They sat back after delivering the HT-2, Deepak and HJT-16 and twiddled their thumbs, allowing the valuable experience to dissipate. As a result, HAL (and MoD) had a sudden 'oh oh!' moment when the IAF was forced to ground them after decades and rush to import. Did they really think trainers would last indefinitely for hundreds of years or were they sleeping on the job?

No wonder IAF wanted to take over HAL. It is our misfortune that the babus and politicians prevented it and we will pay the consequences for decades now.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by saip »

Singha wrote:I thought BBJ was reserved for the highest and mightiest of the land like MMS, The Family and so on...true kommanders of the legion, not foreign guests.
I think the Comms. Sqdn which flies these VVIP aircraft also ferries foreign dignitaries when they visit India.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

shiv wrote:Like I said in another thread, I am gradually veering around to the conclusion that India is not planning to build a totally domestic MIC. An MIC means that we will have surplus military manufacturing industries and we will either have to make war to keep them in work, or export to nations who will make war. The latter is getting really difficult. I suspect that Indian planners have reached the conclusion that since exporters are falling over themselves to sell and dropping prices to compete with the 50 centers who are eating away the cheapo markets, India is importing arms and equipment left right and center - like a 1980s couple returning from a visit to he Gulf loaded with gods from phoren. And to hell with sanctions. If X does not sell Y will always come drooling.

At least that is what things look like to me...

It won;t be long before China offers us arms.
Pardon me if I am reading you wrong but you make it sound like the baboons are doing a favour to India by killing Indian MIC with there nonsensical thinking.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_23455 »

Victor wrote:A proper company would have known decades ahead of time that the old trainer they made would require a replacement in 'x' years and they would have the project at least on the drawing board, ready to go when needed. Not so HAL. They sat back after delivering the HT-2, Deepak and HJT-16 and twiddled their thumbs, allowing the valuable experience to dissipate. As a result, HAL (and MoD) had a sudden 'oh oh!' moment when the IAF was forced to ground them after decades and rush to import. Did they really think trainers would last indefinitely for hundreds of years or were they sleeping on the job?

No wonder IAF wanted to take over HAL. It is our misfortune that the babus and politicians prevented it and we will pay the consequences for decades now.
+1

Though in all fairness a retired IAF Air Marshal would screw things up just as badly...as the retired Admirals at the PSU shipbuilders have shown so consistently.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_22906 »

shiv wrote: Like I said in another thread, I am gradually veering around to the conclusion that India is not planning to build a totally domestic MIC
Shivji, not sure if I understood it right but the way I look at it, its better that HAL focuses on making 3-5 products right rather than trying to get its hands in all the pies. So, while aspiring for a totally domestic MIC is surely a good thing, lets first get those 3-5 things right rather than running everywhere and not achieving anything.

LCA, IJT, LCH, MTA, IMRH etc etc etc are more than enough of endeavors for developing "indigenous capability in strategic defence equipment" as they so succintly put it.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by shiv »

Sagar G wrote: Pardon me if I am reading you wrong but you make it sound like the baboons are doing a favour to India by killing Indian MIC with there nonsensical thinking.
Not sure how you got that idea. I don't recall mentioning baboons - unless you mean babus and not sure what part of my statement sounds like I think they are doing India a favour. You seem to think that I said that.

All I have said is that this is what seems to be happening, in my interpretation of events (over that last few decades) There is no intention to develop an MIC across the board, but the intention seems to be to import what is freely available. Local industry is to chip in for only what we cannot get.

Whether this amounts to doing India a favour or not is something that I have not commented about. Do YOU think they are doing India a favour? What is your opinion?

I don't know if they are doing India a favour or not. The reason I am undecided about that is because I am certain that an MIC will die in the absence of war. You cannot have an MIC and not make war or export arms to war-fighting nations. India is neither making war nor showing any inclination (let alone capability) to export materiel to war fighting nations. And the list of arms exporting countries is getting more and more crowded. MICs need to earn money by war. How would that pan out for India? Is India going to start waging wars suddenly (other than in defence?). Are we suddenly going to wake up and say "Let's get PoK or Tibet? Or "Lets get Somalia?" Not only do I not see that happening, I have seen no hint that India as a nation is throwing up people/governments who feel that way and I am talking of observations (of Indians actions) over 30 plus years. It's not just Khangress. It's Indians, hurtful as that may sound to some.

So there seems to be no thought process in the corridors of power that seems to be planning the creation of an Indian MIC. This is an observation. Not a judgement of good or bad.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

shiv wrote:Not sure how you got that idea. I don't recall mentioning baboons - unless you mean babus and not sure what part of my statement sounds like I think they are doing India a favour. You seem to think that I said that.
Yes I meant that only :mrgreen:
shiv wrote:Do YOU think they are doing India a favour? What is your opinion?
No they are hurting Indian interests. Our fighter pilots will get there basic training on foreign imported aircraft's and this is not something to pride about. HAL tries to do the right thing and here we have our baboons questioning whether it is "strategically" important or not !!!! By this logic we must also not maintain any army, mercenaries are also available why waste money on such "non strategic" resources ???
shiv wrote:I don't know if they are doing India a favour or not. The reason I am undecided about that is because I am certain that an MIC will die in the absence of war. You cannot have an MIC and not make war or export arms to war-fighting nations. India is neither making war nor showing any inclination (let alone capability) to export materiel to war fighting nations. And the list of arms exporting countries is getting more and more crowded. MICs need to earn money by war. How would that pan out for India? Is India going to start waging wars suddenly (other than in defence?). Are we suddenly going to wake up and say "Let's get PoK or Tibet? Or "Lets get Somalia?"
I think Indian requirements are itself so huge that we can maintain an MIC comfortably, what we see in the west is a result of greed rather than a necessity to maintain there MIC. India does exports in defence as well, not much in the niche market but where have we developed such technologies before we can think of exporting them. So unless and until not given a chance we will never come to know what will happen to our MIC if the view given by you is the line of thinking in the decision circles. It's like giving up even before starting.
shiv wrote:Not only do I not see that happening, I have seen no hint that India as a nation is throwing up people/governments who feel that way and I am talking of observations (of Indians actions) over 30 plus years. It's not just Khangress. It's Indians, hurtful as that may sound to some.
People deserve the consequences of the choices they make, Indians seem to love taking the hard path before coming to there senses.
shiv wrote:So there seems to be no thought process in the corridors of power that seems to be planning the creation of an Indian MIC. This is an observation. Not a judgement of good or bad.
Indian society needs to develop much more before we start seeing the right people in the right places.
Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

Harshad wrote:
indranilroy wrote: DAMN IT!

It is bad news, HAL had gone forward with the HTT-40 development. They even had the first metal cutting a few days back. They had a lot of tenders going out.
On the contrary its good that MoD has made a quick decision based on the various factors that it considers relevant. MoD is not stringing HAL along the rosy path only for the trainer to be rejected later. HAL has plenty of work going on for them.

HAL is not a babe in the woods and MoD is not a big bad wolf as is the slant of certain news reports.
AS much as I agree with you on MOD not letting HAL have an infinitely long loose rope. The reasons given here are very wrong.

I really like one of the comments to the blog
Prodyut (Das?) wrote: Some babu once did the same thing to ISRO i.e. shot down a proposal. Unfortunately for him he had to tangle with Satish Dhawan who wrote a minute about what would happen if the satellite was NOT funded. The funds were sanctioned.

It is not for a bureaucrat to decide whether the HPTT 40 is going to build aeronautical capability.This should be left to HAL. Without getting onto my favourite hobby horse I maintain that such small "doable" projects are better at building aeronautical capability than "glamour bus" projects which awe the poor chap ( usually another bureaucrat pretending to be an Engineer)so much that he ends up with a mess of high Technology.Like good cooking Aircraft design is not all ingredients- Love and Knowledge has the bigger role.
All the famous fighter designers- Camm,Messerschmitt, Tank. Yakovlev- the list is as long as my arm- started off designing Trainers.
I think HAL should do a Satish Dhawan and tell the Bureaucrat to keep his opinions in his own field of expertise!
Victor
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Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Victor »

An MIC does not have to be any particular size to make sense. Nor does it need an ongoing war like situation although God knows we have that already. What is important is the size of the economy and the number of people that MIC must be ready to defend. Today, only Japan, china and the US have bigger economies than ours' in GDP (PPP) terms but South Africa, Singapore and Brazil have world class MICs without coming close or enduring anything near the level of real combat and external threats we face daily.

Still, the good news is we already have a very competent MIC in place and gaining sharper focus by the day. It is just not recognized as such but has been systematically discouraged and discriminated against instead by so-called "leaders".

Besides making army trucks for decades, Tata owns Land Rover today which has superb military genes. The company took less than 3 years to produce a 155mm howitzer which our PSUs have wheezed and gasped for decades to do. Mahindras are making world class defense vehicles left and right along with airplanes and Reliance has jumped, hands and feet, into the aerospace market with nothing but the most supreme confidence. Throw in L&T with the Arihant and the list suddenly looks pretty damned formidable. Now all that remains is for the babus and politicians to allow unrestricted competition for everything, no matter how "strategic" or "holy" the items get, and then get the hell out of the way. In fact it seems they have already agreed to do so in private after getting a few stinging jhaapads across their faces.
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