Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Feb 2013 20:36

tsarkar wrote: I always thought IAF operated skid equipped Dhruv but maybe the Sarangs are an exception and operational units use wheeled versions.

Also the air intakes for the engine are different!

P.S. Okay, found out what it is Fit and Forget Engine Protection

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Feb 2013 21:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4SM6Bz2hPs&list
[youtube]O4SM6Bz2hPs&list[/youtube]

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 24 Feb 2013 00:22

Shiv, I want to thank you personally for all the work you have done in bringing us both great commentary and videos of Iron Fist.

Practically since the inception of BR you've been doing such things and I don't think you've been thanked sufficiently.

Here's a start - THANK YOU !

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Feb 2013 00:54

Thanks Rupak for the explanation. I guess Mi-35s are India's most travelled birds - Sri Lanka, Congo, Sierra Leone - and probably seen more action than any other. Ofcourse, the Chetak has gone to Antarctica.

Dhruv in IN - Less than 10, AFAIK.

indranilroy wrote:
tsarkar wrote:I always thought IAF operated skid equipped Dhruv but maybe the Sarangs are an exception and operational units use wheeled versions.

While we're at it, even the placement of the UHF blade antennas is different than IA Dhruvs. Standardization is such a myth.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Feb 2013 01:57

^^^ That may be because of the nose landing gear.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2013 04:32

Singha wrote:Does iaf have the fab5000 in stock....mki could cart it around but perhaps we do not use beyond the 1000kg bombs.

A stock of desi gbu28 for the mkis to attack deep caves and bunkers is called for. Septimus will say 5000 but even 500 will be useful

GD Read the comments by GP Capt Bhanoji Rao linked in the DRDO thread.
Apparently FABs are work in progress for a long time.
Also steel castings for the casings are high reject rate for the rest.

As you know the casing has to be defect free for the use you suggest.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 05:01

Sanjay wrote:Shiv, I want to thank you personally for all the work you have done in bringing us both great commentary and videos of Iron Fist.

Practically since the inception of BR you've been doing such things and I don't think you've been thanked sufficiently.

Here's a start - THANK YOU !

It's OK Sanjay - I am doing it because I enjoy it. I am just sorry I lost some beautiful footage of LCA and worse, the LCH.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 24 Feb 2013 08:36

Indian Air Force displays prowess at Pokhran air show

Shows LCA firing a missile

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Feb 2013 09:28

A Sharma wrote:Indian Air Force displays prowess at Pokhran air show

Shows LCA firing a missile

Stylish to say the least.

Bada wala Thankiu Sharma ji. Was surfing the whole web to get a glimpse of it at Iron Fist 2013. Even send an e-mail to DD requesting them to re-telecast the show or upload it on youtube.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Feb 2013 10:12

indranilroy wrote: At the same time it is much easier to design and build a LUH. It is basically a low hanging fruit after ALH. Why wouldn't you pluck it? It makes perfect business sense!

That's really the problem IMHO. HAL a 100% government owned company, whose practically sole customer is the government is going after profits. Grab the "low hanging fruits" and go slow on financially riskier or technically more challenging projects like the LCA or the medium lift helicopter.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Feb 2013 10:44

shiv wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UktvbWMJmI

26 * 250 kg = 6.5 tonnes of bombs delivered by a single MKI, pretty cool.
Edit:Corrected madrasa math.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2013 11:30

its the famous "claw racks"...my earlier estimate was 22 max...looks like I was off.

a Tu160 making a screaming mach1 low level run and releasing some 80 x 500kg bombs on a mock base would have been truly heaven and the grand finale a 15ton tsar bomba FAE on a target some 10km away at night....mashallah someone hand me the earplugs and make me a tall cold one.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Feb 2013 13:18

^^^
the tsar bomba was a 50 MT nuclear warhead tested by the soviets, the mushroom cloud was it was apparently so huge that it was visible from 1000 Km away! So if anybody is planning to drop this for demonstration purposes then they better drop it on Karachi, it would still make for an awesome sight 100's of kilometres away in Pokhran.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Feb 2013 13:27

I would like to run through that smoke screen

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Feb 2013 13:50

Cross posting from the Aero India thread...

Vishal Jolapara wrote:My Latest Photo:

Wing Commander Pradeep Batra taking-off in IAF's Brand New Embraer 145 AEW&C ► [HI RES] http://www.airliners.net/photo/2230277/L/

There was a discussion on BRF regarding the paint finish on IAF aircraft suffering from glint and reflecting too much sunlight. The paint finish on the Embraer above seems remarkably good in the Bangalore sun.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2013 13:55

er I didnt mean to wipe off the president , all guests and 100 villages off the map. I meant the conventiona FAE FOAB the Rus tested in response to amerians crowing about the MOAB. FOAB = 2 x MOAB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D8Mbo1xPWs

it looks like a giant black SINTEX water tank stuffed with explosive with a few fins glued on and thrown out the door. 3m accuracy is not a huge deal here

its seems to flatten everything in a 1km diameter. one per airbase will wipe the slate clean.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 13:57

Su 30 aerobatics, Iron Fist. I have seen these maneuvers live at least 15 times and have videoed them 10 times. But this is the best footage I have of an IAF Su 30 going through its incomparable paces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q35d2jtPP6Q

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Feb 2013 14:31

The video of the carpet bombing by IAF had me thinking and I have had a tube-light moment - While the number of combat squadrons of IAF is down to 34 (as per interview of NAK Browne), the throw-weight of IAF has gone by tremendously. In fact, to frightening proportions. Correct me If I'm wrong, I think we have like 7 Squadrons of MKIs, right? Now, assuming 60% of them are for pure interdiction and Deep Penetrating Strike roles, the throw-put of these aircraft is easily 3X times the a/c they have replaced. And with better accuracy and range.

I mean, just imagine a 2 x flights of 3 x SU-30MKI each doing the carpet bombing like in the video above on an advancing column of Army Reserve North of PA - with a follow force of 2 more flights. It would be carnage.

I think we miss these points when talking about the evolution of IAF.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 24 Feb 2013 15:34

Shiv Sir , ok this is not an IAF demo , but for me the best Su 30 video is this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hq_RTaThNI

simply awesome....and great background score

BTW, can anyone please suggest ADA to come up with an HD video of LCA tejas showing its true capability with very stylish presentation.
Product acha hone ke saath thoda packaging bhi acha ho to logon ka perception bhi badalne mein help milega

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 24 Feb 2013 15:35

rohitvats wrote:The video of the carpet bombing by IAF had me thinking and I have had a tube-light moment - While the number of combat squadrons of IAF is down to 34 (as per interview of NAK Browne), the throw-weight of IAF has gone by tremendously. In fact, to frightening proportions. Correct me If I'm wrong, I think we have like 7 Squadrons of MKIs, right? Now, assuming 60% of them are for pure interdiction and Deep Penetrating Strike roles, the throw-put of these aircraft is easily 3X times the a/c they have replaced. And with better accuracy and range.

I mean, just imagine a 2 x flights of 3 x SU-30MKI each doing the carpet bombing like in the video above on an advancing column of Army Reserve North of PA - with a follow force of 2 more flights. It would be carnage.

I think we miss these points when talking about the evolution of IAF.

Yups. Can you imagine the Su 30 MKIs at Kargil? The Pakis had 3000 casualties in Kargil, with the Mirages. They would have probably ended up with close to 5000 with the Su 30s.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 16:14

dhiraj wrote:Shiv Sir , ok this is not an IAF demo , but for me the best Su 30 video is this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hq_RTaThNI

simply awesome....and great background score

Yes I have seen that one. Beautiful, but this is not IAF and the waltz music which they played while we did PT displays in school in the 60s is as cliched a tune as Celine Dion.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 16:17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXDMs-y4oQk

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2013 16:25

Not sure if anyone has tried but a su3o might be able take 10 x 1000kg bombs ...for the kind of stone built targets seen in the hills might need the heavier meat of such bombs. Its the old 20kt more vs 200kt less debate.
We can try both and settle on whichever kills the most tspa.

I recall a storming display by eurofighter carrying a huge number of bombs in some airshow..nah just checked ig farnborough 2010..nowhere close...only the strike eagle can come close that too loading up all pylons back to near its tailpipe.i guess usaf would just send a b1 for such a job and flatten a couple villages and just kill everyone around as collateral damage

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 24 Feb 2013 17:16

Singha wrote:Not sure if anyone has tried but a su3o might be able take 10 x 1000kg bombs

I understand that Su 30 has 8 tonne capability

abhik wrote:26 * 250 kg = 5.5 tonnes of bombs delivered by a single MKI, pretty cool.

Sir 6.5 tonne.... aaj sab ka calculation galat jaa raha hai ...

BTW imagine this 3 Su 30 and 3 Rafale fully loaded [3*8 + 3*9.5 ] = 52.5 tonne i.e nearly 8.5 mirage 2000 capability [the next best that we had in terms of weapon load capability] and then add to this rather than dumb bomb they are precision weapons then

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 24 Feb 2013 17:40

That C130 lands on such ashort strip? Was that strip built for the demo purpose only? It was awesome

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 17:41

Mirage 2000 at might - nothing much seen - but the diamond target gets hit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nyfl46VmIc

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Feb 2013 18:20

dhiraj wrote:
abhik wrote:26 * 250 kg = 5.5 tonnes of bombs delivered by a single MKI, pretty cool.
Sir 6.5 tonne.... aaj sab ka calculation galat jaa raha hai ...

My puny brain not able to compute such large numbers onlyy.

BTW imagine this 3 Su 30 and 3 Rafale fully loaded [3*8 + 3*9.5 ] = 52.5 tonne i.e nearly 8.5 mirage 2000 capability [the next best that we had in terms of weapon load capability] and then add to this rather than dumb bomb they are precision weapons then

Never seen a Rafale carrying much more than 2 tonnes of munitions though.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 18:29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srC5uWJbrUI

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 19:58

shiv wrote:Mirage 2000 at might - nothing much seen - but the diamond target gets hit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nyfl46VmIc

I just had an aha moment here. That Mirage was dropping a bomb in total darkness from 3km high at a target that would have been nearly invisible. That is why the audience were at least 2-3 km away. Imagine a little error and the PM and service chiefs get blown up!

Besides shrapnel can carry a long distance at insane initial velocities (like 2000 m/s)

That explains why the sound of the exploding bombs comes much, much later. In this video the explosion is heard 10 seconds after the flash is seen - translating to about 3 km from the camera. And heck the bomb hits about 20 sec after the lady says "the bomb has already been released"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2013 20:22

shiv wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... P6Q#t=188s

Rambha does 180 deg turn almost lazily (yawning, almost falling asleep) in 6 sec. Compare with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V4waXZLxSE

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Feb 2013 20:26

In fact, to frightening proportions. Correct me If I'm wrong,

not yet not yet

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Feb 2013 20:30

shiv wrote:
shiv wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... P6Q#t=188s
Rambha does 180 deg turn almost lazily (yawning, almost falling asleep) in 6 sec. Compare with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V4waXZLxSE

More of fuction of integrated control surface with its TVC that helps make those seemless manouver , If Tejas manages to integrate TVC it might well can do that with same ease me thinks.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Feb 2013 20:31

Area of the Livefist Air Power Demo 2013

VIP seating area:

Targets close by:

Most of the nearby targets in red circles, VIP gallery in blue:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2013 21:07

without the tested but not deployed CFTs , the Rafales payload and range is quite inferior to the MKI because it needs to cart around 2 huge fuel tanks and sometimes 3 tanks. that leaves generally room for 6 AAM/LGB and 2-4 self-defence AAM and 1 damocles pod for such long range missions. nothing to sniff at but not in strike eagle/mki league.

I have never seen a MKI loaded to the gunwales with A2G missiles and bombs but potentially could mount 4 x LGB and litening below fuselage, 4 popeye type missiles and 4 AAMs under the wings. if we could add a rafale style triple rack maybe up the headcount more.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Feb 2013 21:29

I think that India NEEDS to have a pure Bomber - a bomb truck, which has tremendous loiter/on station ability, alongwith the ability to carry insane loads of bombs, LGBs, AAMs. Said platform should have all the ingredients of a true fighter, and networked to AWACS for targeting info.
Weapons might need to be longer range so that a good enough standoff distance can be ensured.

Even massa has plans for a modified B1 type stealth bomb truck, which can fire off AMRAAMs and ASRAAMs at targets from long distances, and escape the area if things get too hot.

In the indian scenario, once air superiority is ensured, and there will only be a limited window where that can be ensured by the fighters and missile strikes, a bomb truck is needed to go in and flatten out the enemy, before enemy reinforcements have a chance to arrive and put up a resistance. Otherwise we are looking at multiple sorties, from long distances, refueler support, and with less bomb load as a result. The worst thing will be spending need less time waiting for the ammo to arrive and see it arriving in small packages.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2013 22:21

the rafale way of triple racking the AASM looks clumsy and high drag like hanging a very fat T shaped pylon off the wing and then AASM off it. infact fully kitted up, the stores tend to make the rafale very draggy esp the 3 XL fuel tanks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2013 22:23

Gagan , no such soln exists today and future US bomber and PAKDA might one day play that role, but before that armed and autonomous UCAVs might appear as cheaper and more feasible.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 24 Feb 2013 22:28

The an-32 can act like a temporary bomber if need be.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Feb 2013 23:36

India should think about joining PAK DA or at least get those Tu-22s

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Feb 2013 07:06

In my personal opinion, the only Indian adversary who might get hit by an Indian heavy bomber is China. China is too large a nation to be subdued by long range heavy bombers which are hopelessly over-rated (IMO) when carrying conventional bombs and suicidal over enemy land. But even if one were to argue for a limited number of heavy bombers in a niche role, our future wars are most likely to be border war with China or draining the Pakistani swamp. Neither will require heavy bombers as a must have.

Russia will not attack US/China with heavy bombers. They need heavy bombers to reach the edges of their own territory for border wars and Arctic patrols. US needs them for overseas adventurism. Warfare keeps changing and we must adjust our needs for wars that we may need to fight and not wars of the 20th century. IMHO and all that.