Bharat Rakshak

With all the incredibly intelligent people on this forum why can't a spade be called a spade. Can anyone here honestly say that the Indian MIC is not an embarrassing, abysmal failure? The country is not even self sufficient in small arms. The fact that there are near monopoly situations for most weapon production is bad but what is worse is that these monopolies are gov't owned and that is the kiss of death.

As Man Mohan likes to say, isn't it ironic that a socialist country like India has to buy most of its weapons from PRIVATE foreign companies. We can argue forever about how and why we have reached the current situation. What IMHO is irrefutable is there must be RADICAL change to the current set up if progress is to be made. Whether it is high tech arms or any other technology intensive product compare North and South Korea and I think the answer is staring you in the face.

You can beat about the bush but the core issue is the quality of the people running the OFB

Keep repeating a myth a million times and it becomes a fact

From here:





Incorrect. The core issue in this particular case is that the Russians simply haven't transferred the technology required to locally manufacture the T-90. And they are getting away with daylight robbery. But let us all blame the OFB onlee. After all, it is a well known fact that they are a bunch of incompetent oafs, no? Why not blame them for everything under the sun, even if it is not their fault?

<braces self for the barrage of spin that is about to explode upon the forum>

It goes to MoD, they basically just dont care about mil production in house, and thats a fact.

You clearly believe in that. However I do believe that truth cuts through the spin.

And the fact remains, be it BEML and Tatra saga, or the Arjun QC saga, or the T 72 QC saga.

Or the VARIOUS ammunition saga.

Its a long list. It is quite sad to pretend otherwise when this impinges on the safety of the country.

Rather than doing stupid blame gaming, the real problem has to be fixed.

It may well be a long list. Unfortunately for you, the Arjun doesn't figure in it. Which is probably why you have to resort to quoting all those "sagas" as a crutch to support you non-argument.

The Arjun was ready for mass production under mass production at close to full capacity in 2007. That is a fact. Not that inconvenient facts and the like should stop you from pulling stuff put of a hat to score points here.

MOD, IA, OFB, all have a very keen interest(personal one) for not to boost the
Local assets. We all now OBF cant increase the T-90 and Arjun production rate. We all know the reluctant nature of IA for any indigenous product or its development and induction finally. Here I'm talking about billions of amt of purchase order for some fancy imported gadget(Esp. after the mumbai attack)
So my point is, if they(MOD, IA, OFB) get a fraction of this mass amount (0.000001%), even it will be suffice for him, then next two three generations.
(Our pet has taste the blood now..)

Some years ago a very successful industrialist (blue-chip co) told me that if you want "quality",you need to find "quality people",exactly as a member posted earlier.This is the problem that afflicts us with anything that wears a govt. tag on its shirt.How many of our govt. servants are simply time servers and how many dedicated to their task to the nation? Perhaps this is what Dr.Kalam referred to in one of his books about the (previous) generation that always says,"it can't be done".The Post-Independence generation ,especially today's wants success and the bells and whistles of success,asap. and are therefore ready to innovate,take risks,but mainly in the private sector or individually,where merit has its rewards and not "years of service" which automatically sees a babu reach the top of his pile of incompetence.We often criticise Russia,but even with its own version of babudom,the Russian leaders know when to cut loose.Remember how Putin sacked the famous heavily decorated missile designer who couldn't perfect the Bulava? It worked.But then,the "quality" of people must start at the very top! I need not say more.We ,I mean the intelligentsia,educated middle class ,discerning individuals,and the general mass of us Indians who are simple,pious,spiritual people,who should know the difference between "right and wrong" keep on electing the worst scoundrels election after election, and the system rolls on and on.It explains why the AH movement has been so successful in energising the masses thus far and why the fortunes of the Cong/UPA-2 are plummeting.

However,there are shining lights amidst the morass,the man who built Delhi's metro.E.Sreedharan,India's
"Metro Man",who was made by the French ,a Chevalier de la Legion d'honneur",and wanted by almost every state for its projects! if we can replicate or clone a Sreedharan,by finding out similar dedicated individuals several times over in the MOD/DRDO/PSUs and there are some (one need not name them here,or perhaps we should?),I'm sure that half the battle will be won.

If Arjun did not figure in it, it would be most fortunate for me.

Unfortunately for me and other Indians who care about India. It didm for a long time. Your admirable but misplaced assertions not withstanding. Its on records in parliamentary committees too.

As you say the problems are fixed since 2007-8 time frame. Yes that is the picture we get know. However knowing overall reputation of Avadi, let us hope it continues.

Of course, and we have to take your word for it, don't we? If we dare ask you to produce evidence of such a record, there will be much FUD thrown about regarding "context", "broad contours", and what not.



Did I now?

You are a newbie here, stay and learn, and if you are polite you will get data. However you must show the necessary attitude to learn.

bullying is not acceptable. not that it matters in this case, but Mihir is no newbie either.
- R

Expect a DDM post in next few days - Arjun can not fire Agni 5 from its gun. Hence we should abandon it and go for T9999 which can fire 6000 Agni 5s per minute.

Our Shanku sir will argue that we need to convert Arjun into Smootbore gun tank so that Agni5 can also be fire from the gun

hahah.. I like the smootbore reference!! +3999 for your post!

Kindly please refrain from making meaningless statements. Pretty sad what the thread has been reduced to by this silly behavior.

Was going back and forth on this thread and got lost...can some one tell me when the upgraded Arjun tank (Mark II is it?) is scheduled for trials and induction?

actually Mark III is getting ready for trials ...

Sir,

Thank you for the correct info...any idea about the time frame? When the trials start?

Is it Arjun..? Link

you have any doubt??

100% Arjun :$

What about the quality of people running the MOD ?


What about the quality of people running the MOD ?

Err... When did Mk III come up? Source pls...

IMR had a recent issue with an article/details on the T-90 modernisation,which we are supposed to be getting in future batches (already ordered).How do these compare with Arjun Mk-3's improvements.Can anyone shed some light on similarities of eqpt.,or differences pl.?

can someone point to a link showing arjun mk-2 pics or video?

What is the mobility of Arjun after say been hit on the tracks?

Nice image.It appears that Arjun too is following the current trend of a "V" shaped ERA for the turret.However,the fuel drum mounted on the rear with an exposed "pipe" linking it to the dear Lord knows where, looks rather foolish,it could an easy casualty when a tank is burying,hiding itself in the undergrowth/terrain .Reg.Saik's query,looking at some other recent tank improvements,a few have extended the slat/bar armour to defeat tandem warhead RPG rounds more extensively protecting the tracks/wheels,as well as the rear of the turret.

Can you post the article or link to it.

that fuel tank is a drop tank, as in will be discarded if the tank expects to get into action soon. alternative is more frequent refuelings, if it can be arranged. the older MTU engine is more fuel hungry vs a more modern plant....think of it as a ferry tank.

no provision for the M1 TUSK/Leo2 Urban warfare kit because we dont expect to use tanks in heavily built up areas esp in a post conflict COIN role. the remote weapons stn with high elevation gun and the commanders drum type thermal (again with high elevation) will permit the commander to detect and engage high angle targets in 360' arc during passing engagements through urbanized areas.

Philip, I think if one thinks about reactive armor, then a flat facing is more protective.. and the slanted ones have the energy striking at focal points can cause more damage than protect. so, it is also depends on where the projectile hits.

IMHO, the flat faced may be more protective than the V shaped, which may more stealthy perhaps.

Indian Army's summer war game goin on in Rajasthan involving Army's SW Command and IAF. As inducted regiment of Arjun MBT falls under SW command we should expect to see Arjun in action in desert.

Army launches combat exercise 'Shoorveer' in Rajasthan



-Ankit

Austin.IMR has no website,but I will later post the report,from the Def-Ex .

I disagree with the view that there is something radically wrong in the system. The only and only problem in the system is “peanut” type of budget.
For instance, the inflation adjusted development cost of Rafale is around US$ 20 Billion while for LCA it is US$ 2 Billion.
USA is spending inflation adjusted US$ 11 Billion to develop engine for F-35 while we want to do the same with Kaveri for US$ 1 Billion.
F-35 R&D is supposed to cost inflation adjusted US$ 40 Billion while it is supposed to be US$ 4 Billion for AMCA.
Chinese defense R&D is estimated to be 20-30 times i.e. 2500% percent more then our R&D budget.

Therefore Indian Babu who is History major and spends more times putting tiles in loo of politicians has no idea of the budget requirement of defense R&D.

Well if they are history majors then must have learn their history from the Romilla Thapar school of history.

whenever occupancy of a lutyens delhi bungalow changes from one bandicoot to another, not less than 50Lakhs is spent on "repainting and remodelling" by the the estates dept. all billed to loving taxpayers like us ofcourse. even at state level, I believe a similar sum was spent by BSY the CM of karnataka and many more such "leaders"
then there is the 1 foreign trip / annum for all MLA/MP for "study purposes" probably to places like pattaya (there is a move to make it 2 / annum)
all KT MLAs got free Ipad2 ... but they returned it saying they wanted ipad3
all KT ministers were given corolla altis I think , but one guy returned saying he had a back problem and wanted a Skoda ..BSY got himself a honda CRV...brand new probably.

I strongly object using the words like School for anything assosiated with Romilla Thapar and her gang. How can you

What does this even mean?

So finally we have some Arjun Mk.2 numbers:

• 126 x Arjun Mk.1 [2 x regiments]
• 126 x Arjun Mk.2 (initial) [2 x regiments]
• 350 x Arjun Mk.2 (follow-on) [~5 x regiments]

Total: 602 x Arjun MBTs (126 Mk.1 [2 regiments] and 476 Mk.2 [7 regiments])


This would mean production rate/year for Arjun MBT Mk.2 will most likely be increasing to double the current capacity to around 100 tanks/year. Production of Mk.2 will likely run from 2014 till 2020.

• ~10 years @ 50 Arjun/year [(126 + 350) / 50]
• ~6.5 years @ 75 Arjun/year [(126 + 350) / 75]
• ~5 years @ 100 Arjun/year [(126 + 350) / 100]

perhaps either the word soft and hard or the word kill was replaced for something else.. all ddm.