Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[Sanku]

Sanku, this is a standard process in all countries. We are inducting MKI and will induct MKI even though Super-30 specs already present and accepted as doable by manufacturer .
.

Which manufacturer? HAL? Can HAL make the Super 30?

[alexis]

Sanku, this is a standard process in all countries. We are inducting MKI and will induct MKI even though Super-30 specs already present and accepted as doable by manufacturer .
.

Which manufacturer? HAL? Can HAL make the Super 30?

The manufacturer is Sukhoi ; HAL is just an assembler as of now, isnt it?

[alexis]

IA has never given any official reason for non-induction as far as i know. There has been a lot of cribbing abt weight.

There HAD been official reasons for non induction, it was because Arjun was failing basic tests. It is all documented even in parliamentary committee report. Arjun has since then been inducted.

None of which is cribbing about weight. All this weight this or weight that issue was level of nonsense at Shukla's level of kite flying.

Tons of DDM on Arjun, people need to access the original GoI sources on the tank and see for themselves what the real picture is.

The official discussion is on reduction of weight is through the FMBT. Which will attempt to reduce weight through a variety of ways including a auto-loader, please refer to DRDO's heads own statement on the same.

Why do you think DRDOs head is talking about weight reduction for FMBT?

Are you saying about the token induction of 124 tanks? For what purpose?

DRDO's head is talking about weight reduction because army wants a tank which weighs lower but has higher protection. PSQRs mentioned this unobtanium in more detail- thank God it was scrapped.

FMBT (if we go for a clean slate project) is going to be Arjun redux - no doubt as Army/MoD/DRDO has apparently learned nothing from Arjun fiasco (original PSQRs are an indication).

As Shiv pointed out, unless Army stops framing unrealistic GSQRs and DRDO stops agreeing to develop to those specifications, we will reach nowhere in terms of equipping our forces with acceptable indigenous equipment.

[Sanku]

The manufacturer is Sukhoi ; HAL is just an assembler as of now, isnt it?

No HAL manufactures Sukhoi 30 MKI. Almost completely. Su 30 MKI is made in India, only some Su's are purchased from Russia for special requirements once in a while.

Those Su's directly imported are of different standards.

[Sanku]

Are you saying about the token induction of 124 tanks? For what purpose?

I dont get your question? 124 have been inducted because the first batch of working tanks was 124. Any new product is pulled in incrementally. Su 30 when new were only few purchases.

T 90s were only 310 when brought in 2000.

DRDO's head is talking about weight reduction because army wants a tank which weighs lower but has higher protection. PSQRs mentioned this unobtanium in more detail- thank God it was scrapped.

And so DRDO says yes blindly to what ever IA says? In which everyone should do themselves a favor and scrap DRDO. (this was rhetorical) -- that is not the case, DRDO is not going to work on something which they think is not possible -- or at least they should not (although in the past they have often said yes to back track later)

In any case -- the lower weight FMBT is years away and is a R&D futurist project, there is no PSQR or GSQR for it, hence can not be scrapped. Going by Shri Sarawast's comments DRDO is indeed working on it.

In any case that has nothing to do with Arjun. What has to do with Arjun right now is Mk II and how soon it can be made. That is all.

[P Chitkara]

DRDO would do nation a service if they work on improving the next MK instead of jumping into the FMBT arena with the resources that they have.

While one would agree, that it may be an investment for the future, majority of the efforts must be on present. Having a happy customer who develops confidence on me over a period of time is also a very important investment. Isn't it?

It all boils down to the basics of capacity planning and prioritization which is done all the time across all institutions and industries and is nothing new.

Talk to customer, solicit their feedback, make them understand what is doable now and what can be achieved over say, next five years. There is trust deficit b/w the IA and DRDO which can be bridged only when they start talking frankly with each other.

Going way off topic so, will shut up for now.

[alexis]

The manufacturer is Sukhoi ; HAL is just an assembler as of now, isnt it?

No HAL manufactures Sukhoi 30 MKI. Almost completely. Su 30 MKI is made in India, only some Su's are purchased from Russia for special requirements once in a while.

Those Su's directly imported are of different standards.

Can u pls give a link for complete manufacture by HAL?

[venku_Raj]

Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank : DRDO Chief

[Sanku]

Can u pls give a link for complete manufacture by HAL?

Gladly
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=77406

Manufacturing of Sukhoi-30 MKI by HAL
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has started manufacturing of Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters in the country. The Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) was concluded on 4th October 2000, between the Governments of Russian Federation and Republic of India for transfer of License and Technical Documentation to India, for production of 140 SU-30 MKI Aircraft, its Engines and Aggregates. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) accorded its approval for the Project on 18/12/2000 and the Government sanction was issued in January 2001. As per the sanction, the production capacity envisaged was 12 aircraft per Year.

The government has asked the HAL to speed up their manufacturing of Su-30 MKI fighters. As per the CCS sanction dated 18/12/2000, the project was to commence from the year 2004-05 and be completed by 2017-18. However, in June 2005, Air Headquarters requested HAL, to explore the feasibility of compressing the delivery programme by three years. Accordingly, HAL submitted a Proposal which envisaged compressed delivery of 140 aircraft within 2014-15. CCS accorded its approval for the compressed delivery programme on 31/03/2006. As per the revised sanction, the Production capacity envisaged Was 16 aircraft per Year.

Subsequent to CCS Sanctions, contracts were concluded with IAF for supply of 140 8U-30 MIG aircraft by 2014-15. Further contract for supply of additional 40 SU-30 MKI aircraft was concluded with IAF for completion within 2014-15, along with earlier order of 140 aircraft. Out of the total 180 aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11.

The steps taken by HAL for timely manufacturing of such fighters include:

• Commissioning of additional tooling jigs & fixtures in manufacturing and assembly Shops.

• Increased Outsourcing.

• Development of alternate vendors.

• Improvements in manufacturing processes & Operations in order to reduce cycle time.

• Effective monitoring and timely actions through Enterprise Resource Planning (ERP).

• Recruitment/Redeployment of manpower in critical work Centers.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM PallamRaju in written reply to Shri Nand Kumar Sai in Rajya Sabha today.

http://www.hal-india.com/su-30-mki.asp

SU-30 MKI programme on schedule: HAL


This is with reference to various reports that appeared in a section of Press over Sukhoi (Su-30 MKI) production. The reports, quoting a Russian newspaper, are completely incorrect.

It is hereby clarified that the production of Su-30 MKI aircraft continues in HAL. Total technology is getting established in HAL as planned. In order to complete the programme by 2015 instead of 2018, as required by the Indian Air Force, certain components and systems are being procured from Russia. This decision was taken to optimize the investments in HAL.

The programme of indigenous production of Su-30 MKI aircraft in HAL is continuing at an accelerated pace as compared to earlier plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI

HAL also expects that indigenisation of the Su-30MKI program will be completed by 2010. V. Balakrishnan, general manager of the Aircraft Manufacturing Division stated that “HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft – from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly”.[28]

Acceptable?

[tushar_m]

if i remember correctly the county like pakistan rejected M1A1 tank from US because of lesser performance & now this tank is one of the best in the world(at least western media say so).

our brother ARJUN will have its own difficulties but the later product will be fine tuned & will replace the top position in list of Modern Tanks.

just wait & watch we will find the order of 500+ in coming years.(we need a lot of tanks & FMBT is not there for 10+ years)

[pentaiah]

M1A1 is gas turbine propelled MBT
It expensive to run as well as maintain it

[tushar_m]

M1A1 is gas turbine propelled MBT
It expensive to run as well as maintain it

The new version is M1A2 & there is a newer version also

the M1A2 is a good tank which has developed from M1A1 . It has depleted uranium plate at the front(US only) which is hardest material used on any Tank

[arnab]

Most of the 'Russian Technology transfer' (in critical areas) basically involves assembling Russian made parts (the purchase clause with Russia stipulates that). If there was any real technology absorption, we wouldn't have gone for an american engine for Tejas and a German engine for Arjun.

for Sukhois - the myth and the reality (A few years back we couldn't fly the mkis because the wheels were not coming from Russia). Words like (total indigenisation) "getting established" and "will achieve" are weasel words which have little or no meaning. Even Parliamentary Committees know that but every one plays along:

PTI Feb 26, 2013, 07.04PM IST

Tags:Sukhoi-30 aircraft|Sukhoi spare parts|Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd|aeronautical company(HAL is open to involving…)NASHIK: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a premier state-owned aeronautical company, is open to involving local entrepreneurs for manufacturing spare parts required for Sukhoi aircrafts, a senior official said today.

"Nashik-based entrepreneurs will get an opportunity to produce Sukhoi spare parts, its milling and griding components, electrical circuits, among others, for the HAL," president of Nashik Industries and Manufacturers Association (NIMA) Dhananjay Bele said here today.

"HAL is ready to provide technology to local entrepreneurs," HAL General Manager (Indigenisation) Poonam Srivastav said while interacting with reporters here after an event.

"HAL requires 350 to 400 spare parts for overhauling and repairing work of each Sukhoi-30 aircraft. The spare parts are currently imported from Russia," she said.

"If local entrepreneurs produce these spare parts, they will get business of Rs 10,000 crore," Srivastav added.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... eronautics

[arnab]

There HAD been official reasons for non induction, it was because Arjun was failing basic tests. It is all documented even in parliamentary committee report. Arjun has since then been inducted.

Of course there were 'official reasons' for rejecting the Arjun. This whole thread over the last few years has proved those official reasons to be false and motivated in order to induct an inferior product. Why do you think you are wailing about "expensive" C-17s? It is because the "inferior" argument falls flat .

Yes Arjun has been inducted (124 Mk-1s) which beat the crap out of the T-90s, of which 1650 are still being inducted (and we bought 'only' 310 of them in the first iteration )

The next iteration that the army is asking for is a Mk-II. What they ought to be doing is stopping (or reducing) the rate of T-90 induction and replacing it with the 'more suitable for desert' Arjun Mk-I tanks, while upgrading to Mk-II for a second set.

To recall what the costs of acquiring the T-90s were for India:

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued — allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production — that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia’s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece (notice the utility of parliamentary committees).

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2444010/posts

[nachiket]

Yes, older models are upgraded once newer specs come out. But never are older model produced afresh when newer specs are already present and accepted as doable by manufacturer. (Remember DRDO has signed this on)

The "older" model you talked about is better than the T-90 model that the IA is happily inducting right now. It is a 1000 times better than some of the rust buckets that populate many of our Armored regiments today.

And the Mk2 hasn't been tested and finalized yet. It is still under development. Just because there have been a few tests doesn't mean it's ready, unlike the Mk1 which has undergone even comparative trials with the IA's favorite tincan and come out with flying colors.

Production of older but proven versions and development and testing of newer versions always happens simultaneously. In the Arjun's case the IA keeps wasting precious resources by asking for more and more R&D without committing to buying anything once it's done. The DRDO agrees to it because it has no choice. If it says no, the IA will happily buy more tincans armed with the excuse that DRDO can't deliver.

[SaiK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_AGT1500 Engine output peaks at 1,500 hp (1,120 kW), with 2,750 lb-ft (3,754 N-m) of torque at that peak.[2] The engine can use a variety of fuels, including jet fuel, gasoline, diesel and Marine Diesel.[2]

[SaiK]

Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank : DRDO Chief

so they expect paki bridges to withstand T90s? not all bridges are made for tanks.. one can't cut their legs to fit shoes. bridge layers are normally used during war, and where needed. or temporary bridge supporting columns can be erected in a jiffy by army, and get the tank cross the river.

they (ddm mostly) will go extremes to find reasons not to fight a war, and will go extend to bash home made systems. this is ultimate mockery of GSQR.

[alexis]

Acceptable?

Sorry. No.

All those links says "will happen". I have seen them earlier. I was asking for some link which says "happened". I may be taking a strict interpretation, but as long as HAL cant manufacture a Su-30 without intervention from Sukhoi, it is still an assembler. I am not saying HAL has to manufacture all parts; but it should be able to negotiate with all those suppliers (Rus/Indian) directly and be be able to procure them in time to match its schedule.

Anyway this point is OT. My point was simply that Sukhoi is still producing Su-30 MKI/MKA/SM inspite of being able to make Super Su-30 and Su-35. As per your logic only the latest variant should be in production.

[Sanku]

Most of the 'Russian Technology transfer' (in critical areas) basically involves assembling Russian made parts (the purchase clause with Russia stipulates that).

Bullshit.

Unless of course HAL, MOD, etc everyone is lying and you are not.

This is what the LINK YOU POSTED has to say

"HAL is ready to provide technology to local entrepreneurs," HAL General Manager (Indigenisation) Poonam Srivastav said while interacting with reporters here after an event.

"HAL requires 350 to 400 spare parts for overhauling and repairing work of each Sukhoi-30 aircraft. The spare parts are currently imported from Russia," she said.

"If local entrepreneurs produce these spare parts, they will get business of Rs 10,000 crore," Srivastav added.

HAL is purchasing some parts from Russia ONLY to speed up the manufacturing (as mentioned both in the LINK YOU PROVIDED as well as in the HAL PRESS RELEASE I GAVE)

SO dear Arnab answer this were you

1) LYING

2) INCAPABLE OF BASIC UNDERSTANDING?

You may chose as appropriate.

[Sanku]

All those links says "will happen"

I am sorry but they do not. They say are happening. Only one said will happen by 2010 (this is 2013) -- that too for remaining few parts.

I may be taking a strict interpretation, b

No you are not taking a strict interpretation. This is called "hum nahi manegne" (I will not agree)

HAL has said that it is the manufacturer, so has GoI. It currently produces Su 30 end to end from raw materials, with few parts outsourced primarily for logistical reasons.

This is in black and white.

You interpretations are irrelevant I am afraid.

Anyway this point is OT. My point was simply that Sukhoi is still producing Su-30 MKI/MKA/SM inspite of being able to make Super Su-30 and Su-35. As per your logic only the latest variant should be in production.

Bringing Sukhoi in is irrelevant again, Su may be making the whole range for n different customers, however Su 30 MKI brought by IAF and produced by HAL is the meaningful discussion metric.

IAF purchases HAL made Sukhoi's I am surprised that such a basic point can even be contested.

[Sanku]

they (ddm mostly) will go extremes to find reasons not to fight a war, and will go extend to bash home made systems. this is ultimate mockery of GSQR.

I agree, IA will factor in the weight restrictions on bridges during deployment. It will do so by making sure Arjuns when deployed in Punjab have their own bridges (laying tanks) or are used in Rajsthan area.

[Sanku]

The "older" model you talked about is better than the T-90 model that the IA is happily inducting right now. It is a 1000 times better than some of the rust buckets that populate many of our Armored regiments today.
.

The question was simple, do you think that IA should order more MK I or Mk IIs. Its a simple question.

Do you think that the follow on order should have been for Mk I or should they be for Mk II.

Note DRDO agrees that Mk II should be the next lot. So please tell us why do you think Mk Is should be ordered instead of Mk IIs.

[nachiket]

So please tell us why do you think Mk Is should be ordered instead of Mk IIs.

Didn't I just say why in my earlier post? Because they are better than the foreign tanks we are buying right now. And infinitely better than the laughably obsolete T-55's and T-72s that make up several tank regiments in the IA. And the Mk2 is not ready yet, and once it's ready it'll take time to set up a production line for it, while the Mk1 line is lying dormant.

As for the DRDO, if you ask them to make a Mk3 with even more modifications, they'll say yes to that as well. It's their job afterall.

[alexis]

All those links says "will happen"

I am sorry but they do not. They say are happening. Only one said will happen by 2010 (this is 2013) -- that too for remaining few parts.

No links show they are happening.

No you are not taking a strict interpretation. This is called "hum nahi manegne" (I will not agree)

HAL has said that it is the manufacturer, so has GoI. It currently produces Su 30 end to end from raw materials, with few parts outsourced primarily for logistical reasons.

This is in black and white.

You interpretations are irrelevant I am afraid.

My interpretations are relevant for me, atleast.

Anyway this point is OT. My point was simply that Sukhoi is still producing Su-30 MKI/MKA/SM inspite of being able to make Super Su-30 and Su-35. As per your logic only the latest variant should be in production.

Bringing Sukhoi in is irrelevant again, Su may be making the whole range for n different customers,

Sukhoi is making Su 30 SM and Su 35 for RuAF concurrently.

however Su 30 MKI brought by IAF and produced by HAL is the meaningful discussion metric. IAF purchases HAL made Sukhoi's I am surprised that such a basic point can even be contested.

How much is made by HAL is the point of contention. However, that is not relevant for our discussion.


Just like Sukhoi is making Su 30 SM and Su 35 for RuAF concurrently, Mk1 can be manufactured as long as it is better than existing tanks. It can be concurrently manufactured if IA wants with Mk2 (if Mk2 is ready now), provided there are 2 seperate assembly lines (which is not there now).

My main contention is Since Mk2 is not ready and wont be ready for some time, Mk1 should be produced at maximum capacity of the assembly line. That is why i bought Typhoon, LA class submarine, Su 30/35 all into discussion to illustrate my point.

It is a folly to allow the Mk1 line to be idle when we are using 40 year old tanks now.

[Sanku]

No links show they are happening.

No Sir they explicitly do.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=77406

Manufacturing of Sukhoi-30 MKI by HAL
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has started manufacturing of Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters in the country.

Had started == current tense == happening.

Please please please.

Sukhoi is making Su 30 SM and Su 35 for RuAF concurrently.

These are two different planes altogether. They do not bolster your point.

Since Mk2 is not ready and wont be ready for some time, Mk1 should be produced at maximum capacity of the assembly line.

Which brings us to a delicious point, are the 124 tanks all delivered? What is the real maximum capacity of the assembly line?

[alexis]

The question was simple, do you think that IA should order more MK I or Mk IIs. Its a simple question.

Do you think that the follow on order should have been for Mk I or should they be for Mk II.

Note DRDO agrees that Mk II should be the next lot. So please tell us why do you think Mk Is should be ordered instead of Mk IIs.

We should have Mk1 now and Mk2 when it is available. If the assembly line for Mk1 and 2 are different (unlikely), we should have both now.

[alexis]

No links show they are happening.

I dont believe this.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=77406

Manufacturing of Sukhoi-30 MKI by HAL
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has started manufacturing of Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters in the country.

Had started == current tense == happening.

Please please please. The sun rises in the east. Please.

Sanku, let us leave that point aside. We have different definitions for "manufacturing". It is not relevant for our discussion, anyway. India was reportedly manufacturing T-90s before the ToT for gun barrel was provided by Russia.

[Sanku]

We should have Mk1 now and Mk2 when it is available. If the assembly line for Mk1 and 2 are different (unlikely), we should have both now.

The assembly line would almost certainly need to undergo retooling for Mk II. It would involve down time.

[Sanku]

Sanku, let us leave that point aside. We have different definitions for "manufacturing". It is not relevant for our discussion, anyway. India was reportedly manufacturing T-90s before the ToT for gun barrel was provided by Russia.

Fine, lets ditch the point, however, T 90s were being manufactured ONLY after ToT of the gun. There were explicit articles about first Indian made T 90 roll out in 2007-8 time frame.

I would strongly distinguish between assembly and manufacture if you please.

[alexis]

Sukhoi is making Su 30 SM and Su 35 for RuAF concurrently.

These are two different planes altogether. They do not bolster your point.

They do, sir. Mk1 and Mk2 are also different products. So are T-90 and Arjun mk1.
We can induct all of them together, right? We can decommission equivalent no. of T-55s/Vijayantas/T-72s.

Since Mk2 is not ready and wont be ready for some time, Mk1 should be produced at maximum capacity of the assembly line.

Which brings us to a delicious point, are the 124 tanks all delivered? What is the real maximum capacity of the assembly line?

Sir, it has been explained by many people. Nobody is going to put an assembly line which can deliver meaningful number of tanks if the order is 124 (mk 1)+ 114 (mk2).

[alexis]

We should have Mk1 now and Mk2 when it is available. If the assembly line for Mk1 and 2 are different (unlikely), we should have both now.

The assembly line would almost certainly need to undergo retooling for Mk II. It would involve down time.

Seemingly acceptable reason, if it is the actual case. But is it? if all 124 mk1 tanks are not produced till now, that should not be the reason.

However, that is also a stupid reason, actually. If we want to maintain 3000 tanks of acceptable quality in our inventory, we need to have a line capacity of 150 tanks/year.
So is not it better to have 2 lines for Arjun tanks and a 3rd one for T-90? When Mk2 is fully developed both lines can produce Mk2.

[Sanku]

quote>>Sukhoi is making Su 30 SM and Su 35 for RuAF concurrently.

These are two different planes altogether. They do not bolster your point.

They do, sir. Mk1 and Mk2 are also different products. .

Umm, no they certainly are not different products. This is more like T 90S and T 90SM type of picture.

[Sanku]

However, that is also a stupid reason, actually. If we want to maintain 3000 tanks of acceptable quality in our inventory, we need to have a line capacity of 150 tanks/year.
.

we have a line of 100 T 90s which makes 100 T 90s. we have a line of 50 Arjun's whose performance is unclear. I fully agree that the Arjun line needs to be bumped up to 100 as well (at least)

However -- the issue of making a line while the product is undergoing significant flux, is that the assembly line may be repeatedly reworked for retooling as the product changes.

That had been the case for Mk1 line. It had been sanctioned in 1999, but no one knows if it is still ready to produce 50 tanks a year, after the Mk I design stablized in 2007-8 timeframe.

[alexis]

Umm, no they certainly are not different products. This is more like T 90S and T 90SM type of picture.

Semantics, again. Why do you focus on these points? T-90 SM can be freshly made or made from an existing T-90 S. So a freshly made T-90SM is a different product compared to a freshly made T-90S.

But that is not the point. Induction of Mk1 would make sense whether Mk2 is an upgraded Mk1 or a different product (as long as we continue to operate T-55/T 72/Vijayanta) and we have an existing assembly line set up for Mk1. If there was a choice of Mk1 or Mk2 available right now, we could have chosen to produce only Mk2. But that is not the case.

[alexis]

However -- the issue of making a line while the product is undergoing significant flux, is that the assembly line may be repeatedly reworked for retooling as the product changes.

That had been the case for Mk1 line. It had been sanctioned in 1999, but no one knows if it is still ready to produce 50 tanks a year, after the Mk I design stablized in 2007-8 timeframe.

T-90 also faced problems during induction which may have been resolved now. That does not seem to have created as many problems in assembly. T-90 is rolling out relatively smoothly. My inference is that the paltry order is the main issue and not changes in product.

[Sanku]

Semantics, again.

Certainly not semantics, it is not a trivial job to bring back Mk1 or older versions and upgrd them. The choice between do we wait a little before we make Mk2 or make Mk1 and then bring them back to turn them again into Mk2 at the cost of considerably higher work (ship them out, bring them back remove old parts, fit new parts) compared to a new one is certainly not trivial.

[Sanku]

T-90 also faced problems during induction which may have been resolved now. That does not seem to have created as many problems in assembly. T-90 is rolling out relatively smoothly. My inference is that the paltry order is the main issue and not changes in product.

Depends on the degree of change, one can not make such a statement without knowing just what changed.

Also the T 90 line is a ready line from Russia, with changes also coming in from a far more established tank manufacturer. In case of Arjun the home grown production line also is a full fledged manufacturing R&D task associated with it, the level of maturity and experience of production R&D also counts.

[alexis]

Semantics, again.

Certainly not semantics, it is not a trivial job to bring back Mk1 or older versions and upgrd them. The choice between do we wait a little before we make Mk2 or make Mk1 and then bring them back to turn them again into Mk2 at the cost of considerably higher work (ship them out, bring them back remove old parts, fit new parts) compared to a new one is certainly not trivial.

Upgrades are part and parcel of any equipment. Mk1 can easily serve 15+ years before getting upgraded (my estimate: upgraded T72 should be in service till that period). Mk1 can then be upgraded to Mk3 or 4 directly. There is a cost; but it many not as costly as upgrading a T72 which will last for 10 more years and has to be discarded then.

As mentioned earlier, typhoon manufacturingis following this model.

[SBajwa]

It will do so by making sure Arjuns when deployed in Punjab have their own bridges (laying tanks) or are used in Rajsthan area.

from 1970s - 1980s I have watched Indian army regularly exercising the bridge laying tactics and crossing the armored brigades on

1. full flowing canals and rivers (over 5 meters deep)
2. empty canals and rivers with and without bridges.
3. partial flowing canals and rivers with and without bridges.

Have watched many times how the soldiers first go across the river in small boats and establish a bridge head and then engineers follow them to create a bridge big enough for Vijyanta and T72 tanks (not sure about Arjun or T90 though) and their COs timing the whole effort.

[Sanku]

Upgrades are part and parcel of any equipment. Mk1 can easily serve 15+ years before getting upgraded (my estimate: upgraded T72 should be in service till that period). Mk1 can then be upgraded to Mk3 or 4 directly. There is a cost; but it many not as costly as upgrading a T72 which will last for 10 more years and has to be discarded then.

As mentioned earlier, typhoon manufacturingis following this model.

To make a accurate assesment on this we need two firm factoids

1) How many Mk Is are actually being made per year.
2) If the line is going to stay empty before Mk II
3) What is the current status of Ml II

I am afraid we can not conclude in any manner that ordering Mk Is right now is better without that information -- since both DRDO/Avadi and IA seem to jointly agree that going to Mk II is better --> my take away is that it is not worthwhile to produce more Mk Is at this juncture.