Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Apr 2012 22:51

Indaruta wrote:You can beat about the bush but the core issue is the quality of the people running the OFB

It goes to MoD, they basically just dont care about mil production in house, and thats a fact.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Apr 2012 22:54

Mihir wrote: Keep repeating a myth a million times and it becomes a fact

You clearly believe in that. However I do believe that truth cuts through the spin.

And the fact remains, be it BEML and Tatra saga, or the Arjun QC saga, or the T 72 QC saga.

Or the VARIOUS ammunition saga.

Its a long list. It is quite sad to pretend otherwise when this impinges on the safety of the country.

Rather than doing stupid blame gaming, the real problem has to be fixed.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 15 Apr 2012 23:26

It may well be a long list. Unfortunately for you, the Arjun doesn't figure in it. Which is probably why you have to resort to quoting all those "sagas" as a crutch to support you non-argument.

The Arjun was ~~ready for mass production~~ under mass production at close to full capacity in 2007. That is a fact. Not that inconvenient facts and the like should stop you from pulling stuff put of a hat to score points here.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 16 Apr 2012 00:29

MOD, IA, OFB, all have a very keen interest(personal one) for not to boost the
Local assets. We all now OBF cant increase the T-90 and Arjun production rate. We all know the reluctant nature of IA for any indigenous product or its development and induction finally. Here I'm talking about billions of amt of purchase order for some fancy imported gadget(Esp. after the mumbai attack)
So my point is, if they(MOD, IA, OFB) get a fraction of this mass amount (0.000001%), even it will be suffice for him, then next two three generations.
(Our pet has taste the blood now..)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Apr 2012 03:15

Some years ago a very successful industrialist (blue-chip co) told me that if you want "quality",you need to find "quality people",exactly as a member posted earlier.This is the problem that afflicts us with anything that wears a govt. tag on its shirt.How many of our govt. servants are simply time servers and how many dedicated to their task to the nation? Perhaps this is what Dr.Kalam referred to in one of his books about the (previous) generation that always says,"it can't be done".The Post-Independence generation ,especially today's wants success and the bells and whistles of success,asap. and are therefore ready to innovate,take risks,but mainly in the private sector or individually,where merit has its rewards and not "years of service" which automatically sees a babu reach the top of his pile of incompetence.We often criticise Russia,but even with its own version of babudom,the Russian leaders know when to cut loose.Remember how Putin sacked the famous heavily decorated missile designer who couldn't perfect the Bulava? It worked.But then,the "quality" of people must start at the very top! I need not say more.We ,I mean the intelligentsia,educated middle class ,discerning individuals,and the general mass of us Indians who are simple,pious,spiritual people,who should know the difference between "right and wrong" keep on electing the worst scoundrels election after election, and the system rolls on and on.It explains why the AH movement has been so successful in energising the masses thus far and why the fortunes of the Cong/UPA-2 are plummeting.

However,there are shining lights amidst the morass,the man who built Delhi's metro.E.Sreedharan,India's
"Metro Man",who was made by the French ,a Chevalier de la Legion d'honneur",and wanted by almost every state for its projects! if we can replicate or clone a Sreedharan,by finding out similar dedicated individuals several times over in the MOD/DRDO/PSUs and there are some (one need not name them here,or perhaps we should?),I'm sure that half the battle will be won.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2012 11:58

Mihir wrote:It may well be a long list. Unfortunately for you, the Arjun doesn't figure in it. Which is probably why you have to resort to quoting all those "sagas" as a crutch to support you non-argument.

If Arjun did not figure in it, it would be most fortunate for me.

Unfortunately for me and other Indians who care about India. It didm for a long time. Your admirable but misplaced assertions not withstanding. Its on records in parliamentary committees too.

As you say the problems are fixed since 2007-8 time frame. Yes that is the picture we get know. However knowing overall reputation of Avadi, let us hope it continues.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 16 Apr 2012 18:10

Sanku wrote:Its on records in parliamentary committees too.

Of course, and we have to take your word for it, don't we? If we dare ask you to produce evidence of such a record, there will be much FUD thrown about regarding "context", "broad contours", and what not.

Sanku wrote:As you say the problems are fixed since 2007-8 time frame.

Did I now?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2012 21:21

Mihir wrote:
Sanku wrote:Its on records in parliamentary committees too.
Of course, and we have to take your word for it, don't we? If we dare ask you to produce evidence of such a record, there will be much FUD thrown about regarding "context", "broad contours", and what not.

You are a newbie here, stay and learn, and if you are polite you will get data. However you must show the necessary attitude to learn.

bullying is not acceptable. not that it matters in this case, but Mihir is no newbie either.
- R

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 16 Apr 2012 22:52

India penalises Israeli defence firm for contract breach

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Apr 2012 13:29

Expect a DDM post in next few days - Arjun can not fire Agni 5 from its gun. Hence we should abandon it and go for T9999 which can fire 6000 Agni 5s per minute.

Our Shanku sir will argue that we need to convert Arjun into Smootbore gun tank so that Agni5 can also be fire from the gun

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Apr 2012 21:05

Narayana Rao wrote:Expect a DDM post in next few days - Arjun can not fire Agni 5 from its gun. Hence we should abandon it and go for T9999 which can fire 6000 Agni 5s per minute.

Our Shanku sir will argue that we need to convert Arjun into Smootbore gun tank so that Agni5 can also be fire from the gun

hahah.. I like the smootbore reference!! +3999 for your post!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Apr 2012 23:14

Kindly please refrain from making meaningless statements. Pretty sad what the thread has been reduced to by this silly behavior.

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 19 Apr 2012 16:54

Was going back and forth on this thread and got lost...can some one tell me when the upgraded Arjun tank (Mark II is it?) is scheduled for trials and induction?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 19 Apr 2012 16:55

actually Mark III is getting ready for trials ...

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 19 Apr 2012 19:48

krishnan wrote:actually Mark III is getting ready for trials ...

Sir,

Thank you for the correct info...any idea about the time frame? When the trials start?

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 22 Apr 2012 18:10

Is it Arjun..? Link

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 22 Apr 2012 18:43

keshavchandra wrote:Is it Arjun..? Link

you have any doubt??

100% Arjun :$

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 23 Apr 2012 00:20

Indaruta wrote:You can beat about the bush but the core issue is the quality of the people running the OFB

What about the quality of people running the MOD ?

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 23 Apr 2012 01:39

krishnan wrote:actually Mark III is getting ready for trials ...

Err... When did Mk III come up? Source pls...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Apr 2012 04:42

IMR had a recent issue with an article/details on the T-90 modernisation,which we are supposed to be getting in future batches (already ordered).How do these compare with Arjun Mk-3's improvements.Can anyone shed some light on similarities of eqpt.,or differences pl.?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Apr 2012 04:43

can someone point to a link showing arjun mk-2 pics or video?

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Apr 2012 06:00

SaiK wrote:can someone point to a link showing arjun mk-2 pics or video?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Apr 2012 07:29

What is the mobility of Arjun after say been hit on the tracks?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Apr 2012 07:51

Nice image.It appears that Arjun too is following the current trend of a "V" shaped ERA for the turret.However,the fuel drum mounted on the rear with an exposed "pipe" linking it to the dear Lord knows where, looks rather foolish,it could an easy casualty when a tank is burying,hiding itself in the undergrowth/terrain .Reg.Saik's query,looking at some other recent tank improvements,a few have extended the slat/bar armour to defeat tandem warhead RPG rounds more extensively protecting the tracks/wheels,as well as the rear of the turret.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Apr 2012 09:49

Philip wrote:IMR had a recent issue with an article/details on the T-90 modernisation,which we are supposed to be getting in future batches

Can you post the article or link to it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2012 11:20

that fuel tank is a drop tank, as in will be discarded if the tank expects to get into action soon. alternative is more frequent refuelings, if it can be arranged. the older MTU engine is more fuel hungry vs a more modern plant....think of it as a ferry tank.

no provision for the M1 TUSK/Leo2 Urban warfare kit because we dont expect to use tanks in heavily built up areas esp in a post conflict COIN role. the remote weapons stn with high elevation gun and the commanders drum type thermal (again with high elevation) will permit the commander to detect and engage high angle targets in 360' arc during passing engagements through urbanized areas.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Apr 2012 17:59

Philip, I think if one thinks about reactive armor, then a flat facing is more protective.. and the slanted ones have the energy striking at focal points can cause more damage than protect. so, it is also depends on where the projectile hits.

IMHO, the flat faced may be more protective than the V shaped, which may more stealthy perhaps.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Apr 2012 21:48

Indian Army's summer war game goin on in Rajasthan involving Army's SW Command and IAF. As inducted regiment of Arjun MBT falls under SW command we should expect to see Arjun in action in desert.

Army launches combat exercise 'Shoorveer' in Rajasthan

Under the exercise being conducted the South Western Army Command, over 50,000 troops with hundreds of tanks, artillery guns and infantry combat vehicles have already amassed in the region.

-Ankit

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Apr 2012 09:43

Austin.IMR has no website,but I will later post the report,from the Def-Ex .

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Apr 2012 09:56

I disagree with the view that there is something radically wrong in the system. The only and only problem in the system is “peanut” type of budget.
For instance, the inflation adjusted development cost of Rafale is around US$ 20 Billion while for LCA it is US$ 2 Billion.
USA is spending inflation adjusted US$ 11 Billion to develop engine for F-35 while we want to do the same with Kaveri for US$ 1 Billion.
F-35 R&D is supposed to cost inflation adjusted US$ 40 Billion while it is supposed to be US$ 4 Billion for AMCA.
Chinese defense R&D is estimated to be 20-30 times i.e. 2500% percent more then our R&D budget.

Therefore Indian Babu who is History major and spends more times putting tiles in loo of politicians has no idea of the budget requirement of defense R&D.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Apr 2012 11:04

vic wrote:Therefore Indian Babu who is History major and spends more times putting tiles in loo of politicians has no idea of the budget requirement of defense R&D.

Well if they are history majors then must have learn their history from the Romilla Thapar school of history.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Apr 2012 07:50

whenever occupancy of a lutyens delhi bungalow changes from one bandicoot to another, not less than 50Lakhs is spent on "repainting and remodelling" by the the estates dept. all billed to loving taxpayers like us ofcourse. even at state level, I believe a similar sum was spent by BSY the CM of karnataka and many more such "leaders"
then there is the 1 foreign trip / annum for all MLA/MP for "study purposes" probably to places like pattaya

(there is a move to make it 2 / annum)
all KT MLAs got free Ipad2 ... but they returned it saying they wanted ipad3

all KT ministers were given corolla altis I think , but one guy returned saying he had a back problem and wanted a Skoda

..BSY got himself a honda CRV...brand new probably.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 26 Apr 2012 10:46

merlin wrote:
vic wrote:Therefore Indian Babu who is History major and spends more times putting tiles in loo of politicians has no idea of the budget requirement of defense R&D.
Well if they are history majors then must have learn their history from the Romilla Thapar school of history.

I strongly object using the words like School for anything assosiated with Romilla Thapar and her gang. How can you

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 27 Apr 2012 10:31

CVRDE to develop stealth battle tanks to power Army

The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in the city has embarked on an ambitious mission to develop “stealth” battle tanks.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and CVRDE have planned to develop futuristic battle tanks with a lot of modifications, P. Sivakumar, director, CVRDE, told Deccan Chronicle after Sathyabama University conferred an honorary doctorate on him on Thursday.

“We have two varieties of futuristic battle tanks — soft kill, which will protect the tank with camouflage and hard kill, which will not only protect our tank” but also fire at enemy tanks, he said.

DRDO had asked the city-based defence lab to develop Arjun Mark 2 on the successful performance of Arjun Mark 1 battle tank, Sivakumar said, adding that CVRDE scientists had identified 89 improvements in the Arjun Mark 1 tank.

“The Arjun Mark 2 tank will move to Pokhran in Rajasthan on May 10 for firing after which the Army will start its trial on June 1,” he said.

Later in his convocation address, Sivakumar said that DRDO had planned massive programmes in robotics and unmanned aerial vehicles for various applications.

“Nano-technology and bio-technology will change the face of future war fighting. It will eventually make tanks, aircrafts, ships and spacecrafts further lighter and stronger,” he said.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Apr 2012 02:49

pankajs wrote: “We have two varieties of futuristic battle tanks — soft kill, which will protect the tank with camouflage and hard kill, which will not only protect our tank” but also fire at enemy tanks, he said.

What does this even mean?

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Apr 2012 03:09

pankajs wrote:Lots of nuggets.
India has all the building blocks for an anti-satellite capability
Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister Dr Vijay Kumar Saraswat sat down for a detailed interview with Senior Editor Sandeep Unnithan
...

Q: Field trials of the Arjun Mark 2 ?
VKS: We have the first test of the Arjun Mark 2 in June, this year. We have given the army 80 per cent of the changes in Mark 2. There are 126 more Arjuns being built, in addition to the 126 delivered to the army. We are confident of getting another order of 350 Arjun mark 2 tanks.

Q: What stage is the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) project at?
VKS: We are holding discussions with the army for this. We will finalise the specifications of the tank in six to eight months. We are looking at industrial partners for this. We want new technologies for weapons, mobility and signatures for the FMBT. We have to decide on the type of armour to use for it, whether active or passive. The FMBT will be a tank complimentary to the Arjun. It will not replace it. Each tank has its own theatre. The T-90 MBT (used by the Indian army) has its theatre, the Arjun has its own theatre.

...

So finally we have some Arjun Mk.2 numbers:

126 x Arjun Mk.1 [2 x regiments]
126 x Arjun Mk.2 (initial) [2 x regiments]
350 x Arjun Mk.2 (follow-on) [~5 x regiments]

Total: 602 x Arjun MBTs (126 Mk.1 [2 regiments] and 476 Mk.2 [7 regiments])

This would mean production rate/year for Arjun MBT Mk.2 will most likely be increasing to double the current capacity to around 100 tanks/year. Production of Mk.2 will likely run from 2014 till 2020.

~10 years @ 50 Arjun/year [(126 + 350) / 50]
~6.5 years @ 75 Arjun/year [(126 + 350) / 75]
~5 years @ 100 Arjun/year [(126 + 350) / 100]

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Apr 2012 06:53

nachiket wrote:
pankajs wrote: “We have two varieties of futuristic battle tanks — soft kill, which will protect the tank with camouflage and hard kill, which will not only protect our tank” but also fire at enemy tanks, he said.

What does this even mean?

perhaps either the word soft and hard or the word kill was replaced for something else.. all ddm.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 28 Apr 2012 11:13

nachiket wrote:
pankajs wrote: “We have two varieties of futuristic battle tanks — soft kill, which will protect the tank with camouflage and hard kill, which will not only protect our tank” but also fire at enemy tanks, he said.

What does this even mean?

May be it means
soft kill == Camo + jammers
hard kill == Camo + gun/Nag

Or may be he misued the word "kill"

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 29 Apr 2012 05:17

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/walk-t ... /230667?hp

The most illuminating part of that interview was the penetration figures of the FSAPDS described. And I have to confess I was rather disappointed with what I learned.

According to Dr. Saraswat, the existing type in service is graded as 400mm RHAe, units currently in production are graded 500mm RHAe and a type with a penetration of 600mm of RHA is currently in development. In contrast the original M829 DU round introduced in 1984 had a RHAe penetration of 500-550mm (540mm at 2km acc. to Jane's). The M829A3 and the German DM63 are both believed to have a RHAe figures well in excess of 750mm. Necessary, considering the proliferation of heavy ERA on the later Soviet/Russian models.

(^^ I sincerely hope I'm wrong and/or misinformed)

In the regional context, while information about the ERA packages on the Pakistani Al-Khalid and T-80UD tanks, is sketchy, one should probably err on the safer side. I'm surprised a DU penetrator instead of the WHA model in service, has not been opted for - unlike the Germans we don't have any particular aversion to nuclear products nor are we striving for export driven production like the Russians.

Given the see-sawing in the MoD/IA between domestic production and importing state-of-the-art, its not altogether surprising that the morass in decision making has led to a shortfall in ammunition reserves. I admit I wouldn't be altogether too disappointed if we were to settle for the proven L55-DM63/M829 (or derivatives thereof) on the Arjun Mk3/FMBT as so many other countries are doing. If not, I hope DRDO and the IA are approaching the issue with the resolve similar to the NATO during the Cold War to ensure Indian tankers never see their rounds pinging off enemy armor.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Apr 2012 22:37

Well, while we may develop or import APFSDS for Arjun - whatever will happen to T-90 and the limitation with respect to the round length?