Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
Mihir
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 884
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 21:26

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Mihir »

vishvak wrote:
Mihir wrote: Newbie questions? Au contraire, it is you, dear sir, who has displayed a stunning ignorance of how modern production systems work. Hence the questions. Just want to asses exactly how deep the ignorance goes for someone to spout gems such as "an Arjun production line is something that has to be made locally, where as a T 90 production line is something which is imported wholesale"
So how does the system go about current issues?

That might clarify and remove presence of ignorance.

The least can be to state that it is secret.
In vehicle manufacturing, you usually do not have separate "lines" to manufacture different vehicles. In fact, the very idea of a "production line" as a lay person understands it is flawed. It conveys the impression that the process is sequential with a single, well-defined starting point and ending point, and that each vehicle type is manufactured on a discrete and well-defined "line".

Instead, what you usually have in a plant (or across multiple plants) is a number of units that specialise in the manufacture of a specific subsystems. Engines, transmissions, bodies, and so on. Other units simply receive parts from suppliers and ensure that they are ready for assembly into the final product when required. They all feed into one or more assembly lines that assemble the final product from these subsystems and components.

Now each production unit is a smaller version of the factory itself, with separate shops or lines dedicated to the manufacture of different components, which are then assembled into the subsystem. That is, multiple parallel "lines" again feeding into one or more assembly lines. Quite often, you will see a single line manufacturing more than one type of product. For instance, a transmission unit may have a manufacturing line to produce gears, one to produce the housing, one to assemble the transmission itself, etc. The unit may produce three or four different transmissions for different vehicle types, and production will be scheduled to manufacture enough of each to meet the demand from the final assembly line itself (40 of A, then 25 of B, then 30 of C, then 20 of A again, and so on and so forth). One car factory I know of manufactured four different vehicles, more than three types of engines and transmissions, and four distinct body types, amongst other things. Each product unit had just one assembly line, and there was just one final assembly line in the plant. These lines all used a variety of highly specialised machine tools, some of them made in India, most purchased from abroad.

The design and commissioning of such a manufacturing set up is a highly complex operation involving people from multiple fields. The fact that any company will try its best to utilise existing assets and units to manufacture at least some of its subsystems, if not the whole vehicle itself adds even more complexity to the task. Now the core design of the production system may be done in-house, but not without heavy involvement of engineers representing the manufacturers of different machine tools, consultants specialising in initial set-up and optimisation, an independent team for check-out and commissioning, etc. More often than not, the whole project may be handled another company, even a foreign one. Whether the product itself is 400% homegrown or not has little bearing on the matter.

Now think about HVF in a similar manner. They have been manufacturing armoured vehicles of different types for donkey's years. So when they decided to make the Arjun, why would they acquire new tools to manufacture each and every part and effectively set up a new, independent, factory to cater to it's production? It would make much more sense to leverage existing systems and machinery as far as possible in addition to new equipment and tools. Not all of this equipment would have been made locally, and foreign expertise would have been be utilised whenever and wherever it is required. The same applies to the T-90. The production line is not "imported wholesale". It will differ substantially from what exists in Nizhny Tagil, and will incorporate machinery from India, Japan, Germany, Switzerland, and other countries in addition to the Russian stuff.

Now you see why the notion of a brand new Arjun "production line" built from scratch and locally at that, as opposed to the T-90 line, "something which is imported wholesale", is far too simplistic.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

lets not waste thoughts on that abomination BMP3.

imo the Stryker/Boxer types are ok as recce , with indep brigades, with the strike corps and with rapid divisions to replace the older lots of BMP3 and also increase holdings.
but cost will be a factor once the costly (imported) kit like engines, sensors, the main cannon, remote weapons stations, ATGMs are brought into picture.

if we truly want a wholesale tracked mechanisation at affordable cost for infantry divisions incl mountain formations, we should license produce the M113, with a remote weapons station on top for covering fire and self protection. maybe Khan will even offer the TOT for free given its vintage....we could fit our choice of india made engine on it and bolt on some better armour in the frontal arc. "pragmatic" munnas like the pakis, turks, Soko seem to have benefited handsomely from high volume american gear and so should we. israel also falls in the bucket and often get creative and mod these gaming rigs their own way. they have even put sherman tanks to good use much later. its a basic dabba and amenable to aftermarket work like the old honda civic was a modders delight.

for the SP arty requirement why is refurbished M109A5 with new ammo not enough? I bet we could get 400 off some mothballing warehouse quite readily given khan's vast stock of goodies...they have some 2000+ abrams tanks in long term storage apparently.
Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Sagar G »

Very good post Mihir, cross posting it in LCA thread as well.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by vishvak »

Sagar G wrote:Very good post Mihir, cross posting it in LCA thread as well.
Thanks for the very informative mail. However there could be certain points too. It is assumed in production plant/unit that once designs are obtained, no questions about changes are entertained and regular productions of parts across different lines etc continues. So in terms of production lines, there can not be any world/local standard at all that would discourage production by comparison. If one production unit somewhere is under utilized that does not automatically mean some other production line or even entire factory will be underutilized somewhere else in some other factory complex because there are no such connections at all. Just curious.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by SaiK »

license production of khaan armored vehicles and guns is a big step away from the russkies. not going to be an easy political task.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

rapid dismounting BMP3 style :)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7572 ... 2aq0bs.jpg

and it has three separate round covers in front - because there's two guys seated beside the driver and they need to get out too! and in true WWI sponson mounted side gun style they get to fire their own MGs pointing out to the front and side :eek:
http://media.desura.com/images/groups/1 ... S_BMP3.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gd-mM6D8iGg/T ... 9_tank.jpg

and that absurd combo of 100mm gun and coax 30mm cannon

whoever designed this abomination sure didnt take his meds for a month or more.
Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Sagar G »

vishvak wrote:
Sagar G wrote:Very good post Mihir, cross posting it in LCA thread as well.
Thanks for the very informative mail. However there could be certain points too. It is assumed in production plant/unit that once designs are obtained, no questions about changes are entertained and regular productions of parts across different lines etc continues. So in terms of production lines, there can not be any world/local standard at all that would discourage production by comparison. If one production unit somewhere is under utilized that does not automatically mean some other production line or even entire factory will be underutilized somewhere else in some other factory complex because there are no such connections at all. Just curious.
You are thanking the wrong guy.
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

Singha wrote:rapid dismounting BMP3 style :)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7572 ... 2aq0bs.jpg

and it has three separate round covers in front - because there's two guys seated beside the driver and they need to get out too! and in true WWI sponson mounted side gun style they get to fire their own MGs pointing out to the front and side :eek:
http://media.desura.com/images/groups/1 ... S_BMP3.jpg

and that absurd combo of 100mm gun and coax 30mm cannon

whoever designed this abomination sure didnt take his meds for a month or more.
You forget to mention PKT gun on both side of hull like head light :-o
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Surya »

could have been a distant relation of Fowler saar :mrgreen:

but jokes side it can only come from design bureaus who do nto care about the lives of men


the engine underneath raised the floor - so to get out they have to open the top doors and they think those panels are going togive a lot of protection

it looks positively horrible

only worse can be putting drums inside and placing each man in his own drum :P
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

We should stick to BMP2 rather than plain fancy stryker or any other IFV

stryker is worst design with high sleuth unstable platform and minimum fording capability(basic design) low power engine very big for transportation weight penalty 18.5tons+ 2.2 tons slate Armour.

BMP2 base design 13.5 tons we can add Slate Armour or ERA or Kanchan with upgraded engine.
we already had many variant what we need is more number that can be increase by production.
we should import light wheeled ICV but not stryker or BMP3.

we also need armored truck cranes Anti mine vehicle and tipper to keep the pace strike columns

BMP is just part of it we have to go long way
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Surya »

we (rohit, moi etc) are not talking of wheeled AVs for the BMP IFV role as much for the mechanisation aspect

again presently we have trucks\lorries to transport troops

anything AV can be better than trucks

modern 8x8s can deal with almost high percentage of the areas tracked ones can
also the cost can be brought down by not having fancy sensors and using COTS (thats what being done even for the LAV\stryker with commercial engines)


this should much within our industrial capabilities

we need to have a whole family of 6x6s and 8x8s along the lines of Piranha\Boxer


most of these have unprepared fording ability of 1.2 to 1.4 meters
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by d_berwal »

Surya wrote:Flotation onleee :eek:

the idiotic raised floor did not ring any alarm bells !! :P
Flotation is one parameter every future ICV have to meet minimum to get a 2000+ order

Any ICV that does not meet flotation cannot be backbone that's the baseline.
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1776
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

Singha wrote:rapid dismounting BMP3 style :)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7572 ... 2aq0bs.jpg

whoever designed this abomination sure didnt take his meds for a month or more.
Oh my god that exiting is so bad.
Even the Israeli azcharit has a better protection for troops exiting.
Once again oh my god oh my god


BTW Check this page out
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... he-Ukraine

But I concede it probably does not float so no point considering
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by NRao »

BMP-3 rear, when hatcheS are open (there are 4/four hatches to operate!!!):

Image

When the hatches are closed:

Image

Putin is trying to pawn of a bad tincan2 design and make money along the way.

So much for a friend.
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

Surya wrote:we (rohit, moi etc) are not talking of wheeled AVs for the BMP IFV role as much for the mechanisation aspect

again presently we have trucks\lorries to transport troops

anything AV can be better than trucks

modern 8x8s can deal with almost high percentage of the areas tracked ones can
also the cost can be brought down by not having fancy sensors and using COTS (thats what being done even for the LAV\stryker with commercial engines)


this should much within our industrial capabilities

we need to have a whole family of 6x6s and 8x8s along the lines of Piranha\Boxer


most of these have unprepared fording ability of 1.2 to 1.4 meters
Ashok Leyland offer truck with protection from small arms in stallion trucks.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Philip »

Look guys,ICVs aren't expected to have the same kind of protection as tanks.Provided they are able to protect their occupants from small arms fire and RPGs,their purpose is to move their teams swiftly across the battlefield behind the cutting edge of armour.They are not expected to have heavy armour protection at the rear as occupant troops are expected to exit from the rear protected by the vehicle.In recent times,tandem warhead RPGs have caused havoc with all types of ICVs from both east and west.It is why "slat armour",or weld-mesh grilles have become commonplace on ICVs and tanks as well.In fact,a few years ago,in GW-2,when the US forces were being picked off by the Iraqi resistance,I recommended this simple technique,which a few years later has come into vogue,especially after the Hiz's success in picking off Merkava tanks in the last Lebanon spat.

Secondly,the size,weight and firepower of ICVs has depended upon the doctrine of the nation manufacturing them,esp. if they are to airlifted in bulk.ICVs are also supposed to have today the firepower ability to knock off/damage an MBT if required,destroy bunkers,etc.,why some ICVs have larger calibre guns and ATGMs too.In the Indian context,we have several differing terrain,starting from the tropical rain-soaked regions like the Bengal/Eastern region,where during the '71 war,the PT-76 was such a success. We also need lightweight ICvs for hilly,mountainous regions,where large heavy MBTs might be difficult to fly in and operate/support at such altitudes ,where a smaller ICV might be just what isb required.

So ion retrospect,the IA might need more than one model of ICV for its requirements,just as we are finding out with our MBT requirement
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Surya »

what did I say

only Fowler saar will see any sort of merit in that piece of garbage aka BMP 3

Ashok Leyland offer truck with protection from small arms in stallion trucks.
not sure i understand your point

are you saying that this makes it a viable substitute for wheeled AVs?
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

Surya wrote:what did I say

only Fowler saar will see any sort of merit in that piece of garbage aka BMP 3

Ashok Leyland offer truck with protection from small arms in stallion trucks.
not sure i understand your point

are you saying that this makes it a viable substitute for wheeled AVs?
No, But we cant move whole strike corp on ICV/IFV we need special vehicles.
During GF2 American use all sort support vehicle properly bulletproof up-to 7.62 ammo.
these are the necessitates of cold-start doctrine.
if you can't protect own back you bound to fail.
MBT/ICV is here to clear the attacking path and second line is to secure the path.
so strike corp here need every type of vehicle BMP2 carry 7-8 combat troops but protective trucks can carry 20+ at-least behind BMPs

http://defense-update.com/features/2010 ... 70210.html
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by abhik »

Philip wrote:<snip/>...
So ion retrospect,the IA might need more than one model of ICV for its requirements,just as we are finding out with our MBT requirement
Very true, I concur. Now all we have to do is some brainstorming to find which possible frontier this hideous monstrosity of an ICV is most suited to and then quickly order 4000 of them :evil: .
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by abhik »

tushar_m wrote:there is some news about Putin offering BMP3 production to india with full tech transfer on his visit...........

this will provide replacement for bmp2 in Indian army as Abhay IFV will take another 5-6 years (maybe more)

http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... 12123.html
Any reason you say that it will take "another 5-6 years"? The sense I got was that the entire project was long buried.
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Kersi D »

abhik wrote:
tushar_m wrote:there is some news about Putin offering BMP3 production to india with full tech transfer on his visit...........

this will provide replacement for bmp2 in Indian army as Abhay IFV will take another 5-6 years (maybe more)

http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... 12123.html
Any reason you say that it will take "another 5-6 years"? The sense I got was that the entire project was long buried.

ENTER THE DRAGON

- BMP 3


RIP Sarath & Abhay




Sarath - RIP
Last edited by Kersi D on 26 Dec 2012 14:19, edited 3 times in total.
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Kersi D »

NRao wrote:BMP-3 rear, when hatcheS are open (there are 4/four hatches to operate!!!):

Image

When the hatches are closed:

Image

Putin is trying to pawn of a bad tincan2 design and make money along the way.

So much for a friend.

Swiss Bank accountants can open any number of hatches.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

Imo explore a mix of three things ... Stallions with better bullet protection and some degree of mine protection, licensed production or outright buy of m113 ( esp for mountain and desert units ), and a turretless modified bmp2 people mover icv with room for additional 4 troops and the commander inside the hull operating his sensor pack and a remote weapon station of a hmg. Carry some 5000 rounds ammo for that weapon.

Should be easy with oem help to remove the bmp2 turret, add a air conditioner, extra seating and ammo storage, the hmg station on top , perhaps add better mine and rpg protection as it will weigh some couple tons less.

Some folks like israel or turkey might still have the m113 in production..sure it looks like a rickshaw vs the gen-next but cots and cheap and reliable and our roadside garages can make parts for it....our nissan jonga ofb shud have no issue with it.
Last edited by Singha on 25 Dec 2012 14:41, edited 2 times in total.
Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Sagar G »

abhik wrote:Any reason you say that it will take "another 5-6 years"? The sense I got was that the entire project was long buried.
Abhay was never buried it was a Technology Demonstration Project. TD projects are taken up to establish technologies which will go into a future project to satisfy the defence requirements. So Abhay wasn't a failed or buried project, this notion is wrong.
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

Singha wrote:Imo explore a mix of three things ... Stallions with better bullet protection and some degree of mine protection, licensed production or outright buy of m113 ( esp for mountain and desert units ), and a turretless modified bmp2 people mover icv with room for additional 4 troops and the commander inside the hull operating his sensor pack and a remote weapon station of a hmg. Carry some 5000 rounds ammo for that weapon.

Should be easy with oem help to remove the bmp2 turret, add a air conditioner, extra seating and ammo storage, the hmg station on top , perhaps add better mine and rpg protection as it will weigh some couple tons less.

Some folks like israel or turkey might still have the m113 in production..sure it looks like a rickshaw vs the gen-next but cots and cheap and reliable and our roadside garages can make parts for it....our nissan jonga ofb shud have no issue with it.
What M113 can do BMP2 cant?
why go for more Import :cry:
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1776
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

Sagar G wrote:
abhik wrote:Any reason you say that it will take "another 5-6 years"? The sense I got was that the entire project was long buried.
Abhay was never buried it was a Technology Demonstration Project. TD projects are taken up to establish technologies which will go into a future project to satisfy the defence requirements. So Abhay wasn't a failed or buried project, this notion is wrong.
That is correct i.e. it was predominantly a TD project.
Sagar..... any tangible outcomes for the FICV or BMP2 factory ?
Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Sagar G »

Khalsa wrote:Sagar..... any tangible outcomes for the FICV or BMP2 factory ?
I don't know anything about that, my info is based on publicly available info only. All I know is that FICV is still playing out and it will take some time before things become clear on that front and as pointed out by rohitvats BMP2s are under upgrade as well.
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1776
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

Good to hear that Sagaar
BMP3 .... no way hell no.

It has been a while since I was in the picture.
Are we still operating BTRs .... any left ?
Is the GHQ crystal clear on a single type APC/ICV or is there a room and role for both.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by jamwal »

The way Indian labs keep tinkering with BMPs and using them for numerous novel research projects,TDs etc I think that that designing and manufacturing a BMP 2 upgrade should not be too tough
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1776
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

jamwal wrote:The way Indian labs keep tinkering with BMPs and using them for numerous novel research projects,TDs etc I think that that designing and manufacturing a BMP 2 upgrade should not be too tough
I completely agree with you Jamwal.
And I assume this is where a lot of those armoured Arjun/ FICV Abhay kind of technologies proven so far will help.

I would love to see the electronic eye on top of Arjun 2 make it to the top of a command BMP-2.
the Situational awareness would definitely benefit.
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10395
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Yagnasri »

Sagar G wrote:
abhik wrote:Any reason you say that it will take "another 5-6 years"? The sense I got was that the entire project was long buried.
Abhay was never buried it was a Technology Demonstration Project. TD projects are taken up to establish technologies which will go into a future project to satisfy the defence requirements. So Abhay wasn't a failed or buried project, this notion is wrong.
But it demonstrated??? We do not know. Or may be what we know we are not willing to tell because we want improts from Khan or natashas. What is the purpose of Tech Demo Project unless it results in something??? When no one follows such projects where there is an obvious reasons for the same type of systems questions should be asked. Why there is no follow up project or even a proposal to make some IFV of our own??? Surely we have industrial, manufacturing and tech base for production within India. May be not in OFB(that is the main problem) but what about private sector??? Surely they have capabilities. Even if the effort is not an high end one it is worth the effort and as ohter gurus we need all kkinds of systems as we face challenges in multiple terrians and localities wherein multiple type of solutions are like trucks with protection, low or high end IFVs, etc are needed.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

sarabpal.s wrote: What M113 can do BMP2 cant?
why go for more Import :cry:
M113 is a ready made soln needing nothing more. just bolt one of these to the top http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0eVN5_JTbSU/U ... gy_001.jpg

I think for a fee khan will be most willing to let us produce this rickshaw locally using perhaps one of our own truck engines.

the BMP2 modding may or may not work, depending on Rus willingness to play ball and our own seriousness.

imo they need funds for next gen of armour vehicles and are trying to sell off the entire BMP3 production plant to us.
Anand K
BRFite
Posts: 1115
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 11:31
Location: Out.

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Anand K »

Talk about armored warfare and Israelis: Rohitvats-ji, any info on the Army's urban warfare doctrine? On that note, since they want to hoist Zaid Mian's Lal Topi in Lal Qila what is the urban war doctrine of the TSPA? I have RTFFed but don't remember something on these lines?

How do you even plan for something like an urban campaign? IIRC one American general war-gamed a particularly nasty urban war scenario right before O.I.L. and Cheney-Rumsefeld pretty much threw him out of the door.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

in the absense of better systems, they even made this crude frame atop a sherman tank to launch big rockets
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... /290_1.jpg
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

Singha wrote: M113 is a ready made soln needing nothing more. just bolt one of these to the top

Why we can't bolt fancy item on BMP2
Singha wrote: I think for a fee khan will be most willing to let us produce this rickshaw locally using perhaps one of our own truck engines.
When we already producing BMP2 why go for new one
Singha wrote: the BMP2 modding may or may not work, depending on Rus willingness to play ball and our own seriousness.
BMP2 variant's is produced by OFB Medak with many modding. I think we have take complete license to upgrade BMP2 and produced
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

may I know which BMP2 variants OFB medak produces? methinks the Namica model is the starting point we want.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Philip »

Look,let's be serious.The vehicle should be suitable for the terrain first.If we examine the hotspots in recent times,most of them have been in desert arid conditions,like Iraq and Af-Pak. We in the subcontinent have apart from desert regions like Rajasthan, riverine plains like those of the Punjab,tropical marshes and rivers to ford in the eastern front (B'desh,where the Russian PT-76 was a winner),and the Himalayan heights from J+K ,Ladakh to the N-East,Aksai Chin to Ar.P!

Can just one type of light tank/ICV suffice for the same? Perhaps one basic chassis/platform from which a family of ICVs and specialised vehicles would suffice,but it has to be a tracked ICV. Whether the existing BMP series can be tweaked into fulfilling these requirements or do we need a new type,is the big Q.Turrets can be interchanged to carry a main gun or 30mm cannon,AA-cum-missile turret like the Tunguskas,which may perhaps require a platform as large as a T-72.Fundamentally,what is required is a reliable and easy to maintain platform ,that can carry a small body of soldiers,upon which the armament of choice can be fitted as desired.This is actually one very good programme that can be met indegenously with a JV preferably to save R&D time,and which can later be forked out to Indian industry for rapid production,leaving Avadi and Medak for larger more sophisticated vehicles and MBTs.Tere is plenty of scope for both PSUs and corporate vehicle manufacturers like Tatas,Mahindra,Leyland,etc. to assist in production.
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

Singha wrote:may I know which BMP2 variants OFB medak produces? methinks the Namica model is the starting point we want.
go goggle

I am not here to draw sword and you can go here to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_Factory_Medak
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by sarabpal.s »

Philip wrote:Look,let's be serious.The vehicle should be suitable for the terrain first.If we examine the hotspots in recent times,most of them have been in desert arid conditions,like Iraq and Af-Pak. We in the subcontinent have apart from desert regions like Rajasthan, riverine plains like those of the Punjab,tropical marshes and rivers to ford in the eastern front (B'desh,where the Russian PT-76 was a winner),and the Himalayan heights from J+K ,Ladakh to the N-East,Aksai Chin to Ar.P!

Can just one type of light tank/ICV suffice for the same? Perhaps one basic chassis/platform from which a family of ICVs and specialised vehicles would suffice,but it has to be a tracked ICV. Whether the existing BMP series can be tweaked into fulfilling these requirements or do we need a new type,is the big Q.Turrets can be interchanged to carry a main gun or 30mm cannon,AA-cum-missile turret like the Tunguskas,which may perhaps require a platform as large as a T-72.Fundamentally,what is required is a reliable and easy to maintain platform ,that can carry a small body of soldiers,upon which the armament of choice can be fitted as desired.This is actually one very good programme that can be met indegenously with a JV preferably to save R&D time,and which can later be forked out to Indian industry for rapid production,leaving Avadi and Medak for larger more sophisticated vehicles and MBTs.Tere is plenty of scope for both PSUs and corporate vehicle manufacturers like Tatas,Mahindra,Leyland,etc. to assist in production.
only think we gain is new factory.

we should go for LAV rather than stryker just para's
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by NRao »

Do not understand what is wrong with the FICV project.

Indian requirements are rather unique and need solutions to match. Seems like some private companies have made some progress. Why waste that? What am I missing?

BTW, the Canadians seem to be looking into a replacement for the LAV - allocated some $4 Billion in 2009.

I do not think any imports will resolve this problem. They will shorten the time to provide a solution, but provide a complete solution.
Post Reply