Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[arnab]

Also the T 90 line is a ready line from Russia

What does this even mean?

Saar this is the current scenario: Mk2 (will be once it is finalised) > Mk1 > T90 > = T72 > T55

The fact that DRDO / IA 'agree' that a move to Mk2 is required (of course it is - that is how technology augmentation works) means little to the existing connundrum. IA (and you) seem to be conspicuously silent on the fact that Mk1 has been superior to T-90 and yet we are wasting precious resources inducting 1650 of the T90s and only asking for 124 of the Mk1s.

Of course the 'logic' of waiting for a 'better' tank in the future can be extended to a Mk3 or a Mk4 or a Mk(n) version sometime in the 'future'. why should Mk2 be the 'gold standard' that should be inducted by the IA? Let us continue to induct T-90s and keep asking DRDO for better and better future variants. Afterall T90 comes with a 'ready line from Russia' and they have a history of R&D in tank building.

[arnab]

HAL is purchasing some parts from Russia ONLY to speed up the manufacturing (as mentioned both in the LINK YOU PROVIDED as well as in the HAL PRESS RELEASE I GAVE)

SO dear Arnab answer this were you

1) LYING

2) INCAPABLE OF BASIC UNDERSTANDING?

You may chose as appropriate.

Saar DG (Maintenence) explicitly said 350-400 parts needed for maintaining ('overhaul and repair') the SU-30s, which (the parts) are being imported from Russia
(nothing to do with 'manufacturing' (assembling) by HAL - everything to do with 'maintenence'). Hope you understand the difference. Same issues with IL76 if you realise.

HAL is giving the 'technology' to pvt sector - why is it not manufacturing those products? Simply because - this is called 'passing the buck'. Now the pvt sector can deal with Russia (read bribe the russian officials, it is difficult for HAL to do such things, hopefully the pvt sector will not be encumbered) and it becomes somebody else's problem.

Of course there is the other issue with the link you provided which says "100 % indigenisation will be achieved by 2010" or some such thing. Sounds like we are lagging behind a bit aren't we?

p.s FWIW I do not think you are 'lying', for you I'd choose option 2

[alexis]

To make a accurate assesment on this we need two firm factoids

1) How many Mk Is are actually being made per year.
2) If the line is going to stay empty before Mk II
3) What is the current status of Ml II

I am afraid we can not conclude in any manner that ordering Mk Is right now is better without that information -- since both DRDO/Avadi and IA seem to jointly agree that going to Mk II is better --> my take away is that it is not worthwhile to produce more Mk Is at this juncture.

1. The number is dependent on order
2. If the order was for reasonable number, yes. Current situation, no idea.
3. Would take atleast 2 years to enter serial production from various reports

Your take is that more T-90 are worthwhile while more Mk1 is not worth it?
Why should T-90 not wait for Mk2?

[alexis]

To clarify, i am not against T90 induction now. However, Mk1 should also be inducted.

[Sanku]

Also the T 90 line is a ready line from Russia

What does this even mean?
.

It means that you are a troll, not to mention other wonderful qualities.

[Sanku]

[

HAL is giving the 'technology' to pvt sector - why is it not manufacturing those products? Simply because - this is called 'passing the buck'.

No it is called encouraging domestic production.

Also I see that having your lies of "contractual obligation to source from Russia" having caught, you are now interpreting what HAL said in clear cut words.

Paraphrasing, interpreting, etc etc. Old games of your gang eh?

[Sanku]

1. The number is dependent on order

The number should not depend or order, in the sense that the line is set for 50 tanks a year, it should be able to produce that. If not we have a issue. So far the 50 tanks target seems to not be achieved, leading to the belief that the production process has not been sorted out.

Your take is that more T-90 are worthwhile while more Mk1 is not worth it?
Why should T-90 not wait for Mk2?

Because those are not linked in any manner. They are completely independent decisions.

[arnab]

It means that you are a troll, not to mention other wonderful qualities.

Nope it means you don't have the slightest idea of what a production line means (amongst other stuff you don't know)

[arnab]

No it is called encouraging domestic production.

Also I see that having your lies of "contractual obligation to source from Russia" having caught, you are now interpreting what HAL said in clear cut words.

Paraphrasing, interpreting, etc etc. Old games of your gang eh?

Nope the contractual obligations of having to source from Russian OEMs continue to hold I'm afraid (how else are the SU30 mkis being assembled?)

You were the one who was claiming that everything was being produced inhouse - now once shown that it is not, you are suggesting 'domestic production' is being encouraged by HAL So when was the SU-30 contract first signed? Why no movement on domestic production since then saar?

[arnab]

1. The number is dependent on order

The number should not depend or order, in the sense that the line is set for 50 tanks a year, it should be able to produce that. If not we have a issue. So far the 50 tanks target seems to not be achieved, leading to the belief that the production process has not been sorted out.

btw old news

Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi (HVF) has already built 124 Arjun Mark I tanks for the army at Rs 18 crore per tank. But on 29th August, Defence Minister AK Antony sprung a bombshell when he announced in Parliament that, “The likely estimated (sic) cost of each MBT Arjun Mark-II… will be approximately Rs 37 crore.”

For an army with more than 3,500 tanks, including 2,400 obsolescent T-72s that are crying out for replacement, ordering just 124 Arjun Mark IIs seems unduly cautious. But the army has little incentive to reduce cost. Though the generals are now willing to order more Arjuns, they are placing their orders piecemeal.

Another reason for the Arjun Mark II’s rising cost becomes obvious at the Arjun production line at HVF, where the army is collecting the last of 124 Arjuns that were cleared for production in 2008. Just as the Rs 50 crore Arjun line has hit its stride, it must shut down for at least two years since another order can come only after the Arjun Mark II trials next year.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 008_1.html

[Sanku]

Nope the contractual obligations of having to source from Russian OEMs continue to hold I'm afraid (how else are the SU30 mkis being assembled?)

Amazing that you repeat the same untruths even after three GoI documents have been posted. Despite having ZERO proof to back you up.

It takes special abilities to say "its night" in middle of the day.

[Sanku]

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 008_1.html

Track II shukla is about as reliable as you. Just a few posts ago his statement was in direct contradiction of DRDO chiefs statement.

Any other indicators, compared to his say so?

[arnab]

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 008_1.html

Track II shukla is about as reliable as you. Just a few posts ago his statement was in direct contradiction of DRDO chiefs statement.

Any other indicators, compared to his say so?

I would believe him compared to a person with an anonymous handle 'Sanku' vouching for Baba Ramdev's honesty

[Sanku]

I would believe him compared to a person with an anonymous handle 'Sanku' vouching for Baba Ramdev's honesty

Troll.



Yes you will believe Shukla, you are both cut from the same cloth.

[Mihir]

Arnab, Alexis, Nachiket: sometimes I wonder why you people even bother. All these falsehoods about Arjun production being too slow, the T-90 manufacturing line being imported wholesale from Russia while the Arjun line has to be built from scratch in India by inexperienced Indians, etc. have been laid to rest a long time back. Along with other gems such as "Arjun gun has good penetration because of... a well stablized gun"

And yet like the proverbial weatherman getting it constantly wrong, Sanku Maharaj's willful ignorance is hardly deterred by facts. Not when there's a point to prove, dammit!

[Sanku]

^^^^^

Sir-ji,

You have ANYTHING remotely meaningful facts to add, lets see them. Otherwise quit the personal remarks.

There are enough trolls on the forum doing exactly that.

[pentaiah]

Fact 1)
Arjun full production lines have to be eat listed

Fact 2) the imported components of the tank have to be contracted for large scale production

Fact 3) the Kanchans armor has to be produced in large quantities in steel mills

Fact 4) the augmentation of man power awaits ministers kith and kin recruited after identifying the bribe amounts.

Truth 1) T-90 tin cans are in full flow in Russia and the assembly line can be dismantle led and erected as soon as Russians finally peg the price and delivery schedule.

It's better to take home made mean to work and home made tools as well to war, Arjun does not cause burn injuries like T-90 may!

Besides in the near future we may never fight WWII type large scale tank warfare , this fascination for large amount of tanks is fascination with Battle of the bulge (of pockets for commissions)
JMT

[Suraj]

Sanku: since you have no qualms about responding to others in kind, your various post reports about personal attacks and trolling have been closed. Use the forum feedback thread for any issues on the matter.

[arnab]

I would believe him compared to a person with an anonymous handle 'Sanku' vouching for Baba Ramdev's honesty

Troll.



Yes you will believe Shukla, you are both cut from the same cloth.

Saar I thought you have used factoids from previous articles by shukla too, to bolster your 'case' (such as it is) , so what does that make you? I've noticed when you start losing on facts (which is always), you start playing the 'man' - by making insinuations about his integrity (as if that changes 'facts' like 124 Arjuns being handed over). Now I'm sure it is very courageous to do such things anonymously - and it is precisely the kind of neo-rakshaks we need on the forum to elevate its quality even further

[alexis]

1. The number is dependent on order

The number should not depend or order, in the sense that the line is set for 50 tanks a year, it should be able to produce that. If not we have a issue. So far the 50 tanks target seems to not be achieved, leading to the belief that the production process has not been sorted out.

Arnab's link has clarified the matter. Whether you choose to believe it or not is your decision.

Your take is that more T-90 are worthwhile while more Mk1 is not worth it?
Why should T-90 not wait for Mk2?

Because those are not linked in any manner. They are completely independent decisions.

No, sir. They are not. IA need tanks; we both agree on this fact.
If T90 is ok => procurement.Then Arjun mk1 is ok => procurement, in any rational organisation.

If it not, then IA is not rational or IA wants to induct imported equipment. Take your pick.

[Sanku]

Arnab's link has clarified the matter. Whether you choose to believe it or not is your decision.

Please.

We are looking for some reliable data source, not some well known track II, Boeing/ISI funded junketing loudmouth.

Just a page back Austin showed with a statement from Dr Sarswat how Shukla was being inaccurate.

He has been regularly inaccurate. What next discuss Kashmir issue based on Hafiz Saeed's statements.

[Sanku]

Saar I thought you have used factoids from previous articles by shukla too, to bolster your 'case' (such as it is) , so what does that make you?

Yes I had in the past, and I now accept that it was a sheer error. I have now stopped using any and all factoids, including direct quotes of GoI functionaries, from his blog, because he can not even be trusted for that it seems.

You live and learn. I accept my previous mistake, should have never taken him seriously even for a inch.

[arnab]

Please.

We are looking for some reliable data source, not some well known track II, Boeing/ISI funded junketing loudmouth.

He has been regularly inaccurate. What next discuss Kashmir issue based on Hafiz Saeed's statements.

So you are accusing shukla of being 'DRDO funded' (in addition to Boeing and ISI)? Appears to me that they are the ones (apart from India) who would gain from his supporting Arjun (if you can call that stating that DRDO has given 124 Arjun tanks to the army is somehow a treasonous show of 'support')

[alexis]

Arnab's link has clarified the matter. Whether you choose to believe it or not is your decision.

Please.

We are looking for some reliable data source, not some well known track II, Boeing/ISI funded junketing loudmouth.

Just a page back Austin showed with a statement from Dr Sarswat how Shukla was being inaccurate.

He has been regularly inaccurate. What next discuss Kashmir issue based on Hafiz Saeed's statements.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... ef=wl_home

[Austin]

Hope the Indian developed Spares dont turn out to be more expensive than the imported ones a la Tatra Case and HAL rips IAF by adding its profit to the sale and finally giving a cheque to MOD year end

[PratikDas]

Seems like a better idea than giving it to Russia and various middlemen in commissions.

[Austin]

Well Armed Forces gets ripped off in the bargain

[Picklu]

^^ still the country and the tax payer win at the end of the day

[PratikDas]

Well Armed Forces gets ripped off in the bargain

Well, the budget grows each year and there was huge commitment recently to station troops in the north east. If the money disappears, its because the government wants it back. HAL is managed by the government and, FYI, so are the armed forces. If your suggestion is that Indian money is better in Russian pockets than in Indian ones, and if Russia is so concerned about India's Armed Forces, then perhaps Russia should stop giving China weapons and designs. At least we know for a fact that HAL isn't building spares for Pakistan or China.

Dire times seem to be bringing out the inner Paki in Putin.

[Austin]

Well in that case TATRA is a good deal because both are managed by government and then so is middle men.

Increased per unit cost means armed forces end up buying less for more money , reason why Armed forces prefer to import as it turns out to be cheaper and it affect their Capex year on year.

China had long bought Russian weapons since 1991 they bought the flanker and many stuff they still operate Su-30MKK while IAF operates MKI and many other systems the Chinese import , it will continue to be that way.

By you logic Russia should stop all weapons to China because India does not like it and India should stop buying weapons from US and Europe because Russia does not like it ...doesnt work that way every nation have their own strategic interest to protect.

[PratikDas]

Well in that case TATRA is a good deal because both are managed by government and then so is middle men.

Increased per unit cost means armed forces end up buying less for more money , reason why Armed forces prefer to import as it turns out to be cheaper and it affect their Capex year on year.

China had long bought Russian weapons since 1991 they bought the flanker and many stuff they still operate Su-30MKK while IAF operates MKI and many other systems the Chinese import , it will continue to be that way.

By you logic Russia should stop all weapons to China because India does not like it and India should stop buying weapons from US and Europe because Russia does not like it ...doesnt work that way every nation have their own strategic interest to protect.

It is a bit delusional to think that the Armed forces aren't part of the rest of apparatus which includes HAL and the Indian government in "recovering" portions of the budget.

I'm glad you said that every nation has it's own strategic interest to protect. So at least we can dispense with the BS about Russia caring for the state of the Indian Armed Forces.

It is certainly in India's strategic interests to develop its own capability starting from spares to the paint that gets applied to the finished product. If you disagree with that then ....

[Austin]

The point is they PSU simply import stuff and screw driver it here and sell it to armed forces at higher cost in the name of indiginous stuff as TATRA deal clearly showed year on year , they made higher profit at armed forces cost.

If PSU can truly build spares support at lower cost and sell it to armed forces which is cheaper then import then I am all for it no dispute on that.

After all what does armed forces gain if they may have to pay 30-40 % more for indiginous system then imported ones , they might well just import it which is what they prefer to do to save on capex.

[PratikDas]

What is amusing is that you seem to be portraying the TATRA incident as if BEML pulled off the deal in complete secrecy, that the Indian government and the Armed Forces had no clue that this could be happening, that the foreign currency to pay for the imported components arrived from nowhere.

You are familiar with what happened to Gen V.K. Singh, right?

I think it would be fair to say that everyone who ought to be monitoring expenditure knew exactly what was going on and yet it happened because those with power in the government wanted it to happen.

So unless Russia too was giving the same people in Government kickbacks, a deal with Russia wouldn't go through either. Russia just does it in a different style. Pay for the product now. Then pay for it tomorrow because the project is delayed and we have all forgotten that it was already paid for. Then pay for it at delivery because we have all forgotten again that some payments were made. Russia happy. Indian government happy. Indian Armed Forces get tin can.

[Austin]

You simply keep shifting the goal post because you have not much to argue.

It is quite clear that the reason armed forces prefer to import over lic built system is because they end up paying more ..so either they keep paying more to PSU which end up bringing less equipment year on year or they import it ....sadly they have not much choice but to import as it helps them get more from less.

If PSU can lic build equipment that lower cost then import then its a win win argument for armed forces and PSU

[PratikDas]

I have been saying from the top of this page that HAL gives the money back to Indian government because the government wants the money back. The same would apply to BEML as well. I have been saying in every post that it is the Indian government that wants the money back. Please check - not one of the posts preceding this have been edited after you've replied.

I have also said that with any deal with Russia, the same people in Indian government would still make sure they don't lose out.

"Shifting goal posts" might be a cool expression but, Saar, that has not been happening here. What has been happening though is your refusal to address the very real issue with defence imports. Is the AgustaWestland incident ringing a bell?

[Austin]

In the bargain who gets the money and who gives it back the armed forced end up being clear looser.

By that very logic every year armed forces should be charged more because PSU will make money from armed forces and give it back to GOI so money just changes hand , its no win situation.

Money given back by PSU from export i.e money made by selling your wares in international arms market and consequent profit earned is the real money that PSU can give back in terms of profit thats not really happening.

Else the GOI has nothing to gain with money changing hands , Armed Forces end up being net loosers and PSU go around with business as usual.

[Sanku]

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... ef=wl_home

Its fine to post a link. It is also important to say what is the point you are making with the link.

[PratikDas]

In the bargain who gets the money and who gives it back the armed forced end up being clear looser.

By that very logic every year armed forces should be charged more because PSU will make money from armed forces and give it back to GOI so money just changes hand , its no win situation.

Money given back by PSU from export i.e money made by selling your wares in international arms market and consequent profit earned is the real money that PSU can give back in terms of profit thats not really happening.

Else the GOI has nothing to gain with money changing hands , Armed Forces end up being net loosers and PSU go around with business as usual.

No, it is the GoI that goes about with business as usual. The Armed Forces and PSUs are merely pawns. Am I getting repetitive here? Yes, because you seem to be thriving in making this an Armed Forces versus PSU issue when both are managed by the same fountain of incompetence.

I think we have seen enough times, much to my disgust, that our armed forces have not been used when there was a genuine need to because the GoI either didn't have the appetite for it or some other Chanakyan reason. What good is a gold plated armed force then?

You keep highlighting attrition of IAF's fleet at every given opportunity. MMRCA was supposed to solve the problem. Who is insisting on HAL participation? Who is slowing down the process? It's the GoI in all cases. How will importing from another country solve the problem? It won't.

Since it won't, I would rather Indian industry gets a boost in the process. I think it is pushing things too far to insist that every PSU does in every project what BEML did with TATRA.

[Sanku]

So you are accusing shukla of being 'DRDO funded' (in addition to Boeing and ISI)? Appears to me that they are the ones (apart from India) who would gain from his supporting Arjun (if you can call that stating that DRDO has given 124 Arjun tanks to the army is somehow a treasonous show of 'support')

You will never get over the habit of deliberately missing the obvious and saying "you said milk is white therefore you hate buffalos" type of conclusions.

But since your attempts at FUD need to be countered, the OBVIOUS is -- DRDO is incidental to Shukla, he is grinding a different axe, DRDO just happens to be the stone which finds his pleasure. Shukla gives a damn for India in anycase, that would be at bottom of his priority heap.

This is a common phenomena, some people ostensibly supporting NaMo are basically using his shoulder to fire on others in another thread. Again here some posters ostensibly supporting Arjun, clearly dont give a rats ass about Arjun (remotely interested in real engineering issues and such about Arjun and tanks), but basically are on a trip to snipe at IA.

It may be a clever strategy according to some, but fails on a place like BRF.

[Sanku]

Hope the Indian developed Spares dont turn out to be more expensive than the imported ones a la Tatra Case and HAL rips IAF by adding its profit to the sale and finally giving a cheque to MOD year end

Two different issues here

1) Higher price because of Indian involvement
2) Higher price because of the hand which is with the common man.

(1) is perfectly acceptable -- even if more expensive than where-ever, I would say that it should be done as a matter of strategy.

Tatra cases point to (2).

The problem is often (2) is spun as (1) by many cheerleaders of the hand.