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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2012 13:15 
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Location: "There is no greater weapon than a prepared mind."
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120705.htm

Quote:
Russia has produced quite a long list of famous dancers, so it seemed quite fitting that the country organised a 'tank ballet' at a recently-held arms expo, choreographed by none other than the legendary Bolshoy Theatre.

According to New York Times, five battle tanks -- the T-80 and T-90A battle tanks --started their choreography set to techno music, then moved on to tango and an excerpt from Bizet's opera Carmen.

The dance was produced by Andrey Melanyin, a choreographer for the Bolshoy Theater, according to Russia Today


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2012 13:54 
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The MK-2 Arjun will prove it self in the next few months, lot of efforts have gone in and after trails, IA will certainly order 1000 more pronto. The need right now is heavy.


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2012 18:40 
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As you are referring to me, my stand is that HAL had nothing to do with the design, development and setting up the production line of ALH. While it is completely opposite with Arjun, DRDO is making full effort to indigenise every part, somewhere they have succeeded and somewhere delayed and somewhere failed. But is very different then just putting on a label on a product where even the seats are imported.


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2012 19:30 
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More likely Army will order 100 with 10,000 modifications and improvements


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2012 10:26 
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This I found in a article about next gen artillary link

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Self propelled guns are now at the RFP stage and we have teamed up with BEML for the Army tender. BEML is taking the turret from the Czech firm Zusana and the same will be integrated on the Arjun tank chassis. Hopefully trials will commence within a year.


this may be the Bhim coming back to life..


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 10:04 
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The IDF’s future tank: Electromagnetic cannon

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Imagine a tank that can shoot a laser or an electromagnetic pulse. How about one that can drive on a hybrid engine – partly powered by electricity – instead of the loud diesel engines used today? These technologies and others are under consideration for integration into Israel’s future tank which the IDF hopes will be operational by 2020.

Last year, the IDF Ground Forces Command set up a team of combat and technical officers – from the Armored Corps, the Weapons Development Branch in the Ground Forces Command and the Defense Ministry’s Merkava Program Office – to begin planning Israel’s future tank, the successor to the Merkava.

“When we look at what the future tank will look like, we need to look broadly at all technology that exists,” Brig.-Gen. Yigal Slovik, outgoing commander of the Armored Corps, said this week. “There are such things as electromagnetic or laser cannons, but right now they are too big and not applicable. They might however be in the future.”

For power, Slovik said that the tank could potentially operate on a hybrid engine that burns fuel to charge batteries that can then independently power the tank for extended periods.

Slovik said that the crew of the future tank would also likely be smaller than today, and as few as two soldiers could operate it.

“The future tank will ultimately be faster, better protected, more interoperable and more lethal,” he said.

The decision to begin developing a new tank was sparked by the entry of active-protection systems such as the Trophy, which has been installed on an entire brigade of tanks and successfully intercepted a rocket-propelled grenade along the Gaza border last year.

The thinking in the defense establishment is that tanks no longer require thick layers of armor – which slow down the vehicle, and raise fuel and production costs – and could suffice with less armor and more systems like Trophy.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 10:41 
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I heard on the grapevine that the soldiers and officers of the IA agree that Arjun is an excellent tank but it is a maintenance intensive nightmare as compared to the T-90s and that unless the MoD or GoI increase the budget for maintenance of the Arjun tanks, the IA tank corps are loathe to go with the Arjuns in large numbers, because if they cannot get the money, they would have no working tank in short order and their line of thinking, better to get a working tank even if it is inferior than get a superior tank that will break down into non-working tank because of shortage of funds for maintenance.

Perhaps this explains why IA still have a penchant for the T-90s even though the Arjuns have demonstrated that it is a superior tank in every sense of the word. So if the MoD can increase the budget for maintenance of tanks, perhaps we will see Arjuns in more numbers.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 11:10 
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Groan! Another problem with the Arjun!!! Why does the IA not ask for exo skeletons for the infantry, portable jet packs, and use shoulder-launched Nag firing flying infantry to substitute for armoured cavalry!!


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 11:58 
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Are T-90s easier to maintain than Arjun? Or is it that T-90 has an existing infra in place while for Arjun, it needs to be built up.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 13:21 
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Tincans spare parts are to be imported there by more commission for babus and nothing is going to come from Arjun. Next complaint will be Arjun does not have Tras Warp drive and ion Torpedos. :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 14:53 
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Commissions in locally produced TATRA have been higher than the imported ones. If one thinks Arjuns don't carry commission to deep pockets then he is sadly mistaken. Even a locally purchased ball-point pen carries commission. Commission is evil, not necessary but is omnipresent. Please take the 'commission' out of the arguments for Arjun.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 18:58 
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Quote:
heard on the grapevine that the soldiers and officers of the IA agree


thats not grapevine -thats probably motivated (satisfies nelson :) ) folks

there is enough info on this thread to refute that and even Sanku will agree that at this point the Arjun is a superb tank compared to the tin can


they basically do not want the Arjun for their motivated reasons and throw the nugget its excellent but..


the but... used to be weight
then it was issues on the features that the Arjun had which the tin cans did not

now its ambigous bullcrap


Last edited by Surya on 13 Jul 2012 19:50, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 19:25 
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Well i acknowledge that BRFites hold sufficient information to conclude whatever, like in the previous pages of this thread, but that does not constitute knowledge and certainly not the final word. There is no reason to attribute motives with a broadbrush.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 19:49 
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Quote:
There is no reason to attribute motives with a broadbrush.



Its not a broadbrush - its targetted at Armour officials who have throw these little nuggets here and there similar to folks in other arms who make statements like what has DRDO delivered?

It is then collated with info with our own contacts


If they come baqck and give a specific example of what is a maintenance intensive (with a comparison to tin can) then we will take a second look


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 20:30 
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As long as the production and it's back end supply chain does not stabilize how can anyone expect a stable spares supply? Who will manufacture piece meal parts only for 124 tanks ?? Army needs to order a good number and start using them to get the spare pipeline going at economical prices. These guys who are making such comments are indirectly but rightly blaming the army for this mess !! Antony needs to whip any one in army who says Arjun is not good enough, and needs to put a stop to all tin can buying, and if our tv jouro friends like aroor and shom are reading this - high time you created an issue of this in the media - ask some one like VK Singh why Arjun is not being given its due place.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 20:36 
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I also think its high time army stopped adding more armour, and focused instead on getting anti armour- javelins, lch, and namicas in big numbers as these can be effectively used against the dragon in the hills also...unlike tanks..Also badly need nvg's and sky shields mounted on bmp's in big numbers first.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 21:39 
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Surya wrote:
Quote:
There is no reason to attribute motives with a broadbrush.



Its not a broadbrush - its targetted at Armour officials who have throw these little nuggets here and there similar to folks in other arms who make statements like what has DRDO delivered?

It is then collated with info with our own contacts


If they come baqck and give a specific example of what is a maintenance intensive (with a comparison to tin can) then we will take a second look


Your target will have a CEP of 1500 kilometres?

Please read and understand reliability engineering, terms like MTBF and MTTR, take the pain to obtain credible info using RTI as a tool before expecting someone doing their duty to come back and give explanation to what DDM spouts.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 22:20 
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jai wrote:
I also think its high time army stopped adding more armour, and focused instead on getting anti armour- javelins, lch, and namicas in big numbers as these can be effectively used against the dragon in the hills also...unlike tanks..Also badly need nvg's and sky shields mounted on bmp's in big numbers first.


Amateurs can always question and often outguess professionals, but that may be more apt in GD Forum.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 23:37 
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Quote:
Please read and understand reliability engineering, terms like MTBF and MTTR, take the pain to obtain credible info using RTI as a tool before expecting someone doing their duty



Seriously???

Not going to bother replying


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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2012 05:25 
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jai wrote:
I also think its high time army stopped adding more armour, and focused instead on getting anti armour- javelins, lch, and namicas in big numbers as these can be effectively used against the dragon in the hills also...unlike tanks..Also badly need nvg's and sky shields mounted on bmp's in big numbers first.


Jai ji, why 'stop adding more armour'? Shouldn't it be 'also add anti armour' ?


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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2012 11:05 
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Surya wrote:
Quote:
Please read and understand reliability engineering, terms like MTBF and MTTR, take the pain to obtain credible info using RTI as a tool before expecting someone doing their duty



Seriously???

Not going to bother replying


Yes, seriously. Whereas DRDO has blanket exemption from providing info under RTI act, Army does not. The key is to persist with your efforts to obtain info and not give up at the first instance. Your chaiwallahs and panwallahs will never be of as much help as RTI.


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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2012 11:59 
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Manish_Sharma wrote:
jai wrote:
I also think its high time army stopped adding more armour, and focused instead on getting anti armour- javelins, lch, and namicas in big numbers as these can be effectively used against the dragon in the hills also...unlike tanks..Also badly need nvg's and sky shields mounted on bmp's in big numbers first.


Jai ji, why 'stop adding more armour'? Shouldn't it be 'also add anti armour' ?


That would be ideal but difficult given the money available for modernization - focus can help get bigger bang for the buck- better lethalities- and more flexibly deployed against the dragon. We have always armed keeping the pukes in mind but need to do so keeping dragon and mountain warfare in mind - this is also what the army is struggling with now- money to raise mountain corps. Also, these are gaps and vulnerabilities that army has today, so modern weapons like mentioned above will be force multipliers. For example we have a decent sized tank force today, but it's largely night blind - so nvg's will increase their lethality. Similarly large javelin inductions can create a powerful and flexible,portable , and light weight artillery within infantry that can be effective in almost any terrain, against all kinds of targets. Sky shields can be deadly both as anti aircraft as well as highly mobile and powerful artillery against land targets as well when mated with a good mobility platform like a good truck chassis or bmp's - and can be air deployed quickly - as against tanks- same for namicas. My two paise are on keeping current tank fleets lethal and operational rather than buying more tin cans - if you need to replace old tanks - get Arjun's, but I would rather see more flying tanks (lch, apache) inducted now than additional tin cans.


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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2012 12:29 
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ICH and Apache do not hold the ground and are very costly and bad in maintainance. I am not so sure we can totally replace tanks with the current level of tech. In future who knows. Arjun need to be persued actively with large and long term order to replace all the legacy tanks like t72 old models which are not updated and t55s etc in a timebound manner.


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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2012 16:19 
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So according to those Army chaiwallahs, Arjun is equivalent to Tiger and T-90 to Sherman !


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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2012 17:57 
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^^Not only in capabilities, but hopefully in numbers too (some chaiwallahs seem to have agendas).


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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2012 12:03 
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Hitesh wrote:
I heard on the grapevine that the soldiers and officers of the IA agree that Arjun is an excellent tank but it is a maintenance intensive nightmare as compared to the T-90s and that unless the MoD or GoI increase the budget for maintenance of the Arjun tanks,


:eek:

don't know what is the 'agenda' of these chaiwallahs. defies facts averred and accepted by the Arjun Tank regiments.

it is well known Arjun has a 'modular build' which makes it 'maintainence friendly' unlike the T-72 and its offshoot the T-90.

2 for instance -

Arjun's engine can be changed in 1 hr whereas a T-72 engine needs a full day!! T-90 engine change requires not less than 6 hrs.

Arjun's HSU needs just 2 hrs to change while T-90's Torsion bar in which replacement of a road wheel station is a 'major undertaking' as ajai shukla says.


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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2012 20:01 
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what about APU?

sights in hot weather :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2012 20:53 
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Surya wrote:
what about APU?

sights in hot weather :mrgreen:


shhhh... you are not supposed to dig deep. we are talking 'maintainence' only. :wink:


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2012 01:12 
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Narayana Rao wrote:
ICH and Apache do not hold the ground and are very costly and bad in maintainance. I am not so sure we can totally replace tanks with the current level of tech. In future who knows. Arjun need to be persued actively with large and long term order to replace all the legacy tanks like t72 old models which are not updated and t55s etc in a timebound manner.

LCH is not yet deployed. Apache is, do you have any data to back the claim of maintainence heavy ? How does it feature with no. of tanks and armour killed ? Why Do attack helicopters need to hold territory ?


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2012 09:49 
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Picture of BMP-2 upgrade from Engineering technologies 2012

http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/Engin ... oto033.jpg


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2012 10:55 
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Arjun Mark II MBT will be a world beater : DRDO


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2012 11:02 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
a more fuel efficient and slightly compact engine from the Cummins-ARDE project and The Trophy system (cost!) would complete the creamy layer and kiwi fruit on the cake. this might permit larger internal fuel tanks near the engine and getting rid of the ferry tank in back. ofcourse proving the new engine and gearbox combo when it comes will take some time.

overall the Mk2 should be comfortable against the opposition in our locality. to reach its full potential, need IBG type formations with Rudra units and powerful logistical and C3I assets like MLRS, UAV, 155mm trucked guns, Nag units in support.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 07:05 
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cross posting from the Multi media forum

who needs RTI :)

Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 1

Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 2[/quote]



will give a bit of time for it to sink in


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 08:30 
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Enough discussions. We have had too many (being Indians I guess).

I suggest IA order some 1000/2000 Arjun Mk II.

Such an order will have a +ve force that no one can counter. Time to cut the umbilical I would say.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 08:46 
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arey baba - let it sink in :)


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 09:32 
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venku_Raj wrote:
Arjun Mark II MBT will be a world beater : DRDO

Added to this, is the remote firing capability with 360 degree coverage for the Air Defence weapon.


does this mean no men is required to be inside the tank? means a step #1 towards robotic tanks for the future.


Quote:
Experts say that there are three main elements that constitute the attributes of a MBT: armour, firepower and maneuverability. To attain optimal level in one element is to give in to sub-optimality in another. For example, the German tank Leopold has heavy armour but is not all that maneuverable. The American Abrams is focused on fire-power. The Israeli Merkava IV has fast maneuverability.

Arjun 2 would be unique when compared among these top 3.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 09:51 
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Surya wrote:
cross posting from the Multi media forum

who needs RTI :)
Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 1
Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 2
will give a bit of time for it to sink in


Naughty boy...could not resist, hain!!! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 10:02 
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Quote:
Naughty boy...could not resist, hain!!!


Ha ji

When MTBF turns out to be not ordering\building stocks - one does tend to get naughty :mrgreen:

Quote:
To attain optimal level in one element is to give in to sub-optimality in another. For example, the German tank Leopold has heavy armour but is not all that maneuverable. The American Abrams is focused on fire-power. The Israeli Merkava IV has fast maneuverability.



copy paste can get things wrong.Leopard 2 is not manoeuvrable is right up alongside Leopard 2 is outdated and has a boxy turret. :mrgreen:

The Germans read\remeber their history unlike us


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 15:20 
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Surya wrote:



Very Nice and Informative Discussion


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2012 15:38 
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Lines like "Problem is not with the capability ...." and many others are like music to ears...
Also the discussion is very much like we have in BR. :)


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