Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[tushar_m]

+1

After 2020+ the years will be of 5th gen + UCAV's

Also my guess is IAF will reform its strategy when LCA mk2 take the sky or good progress in shown on AMCA front ,HAL can actually change the game if mk2 or AMCA comes as a strong contender ( +ve thoughts ).

Another bird that has not been in news for quite sometime is AURA first flight is expected near 2015(wiki)

so best of luck Dassault/France/EADS

[Paul]

Subcontinental skies will always need manned fighters of 4++ Gen for the next 2 decades or so. Even China is just warming to SU 30MKKs in Tibet. At present the bulk of their India specific deployments are in Yunnan, Qinghai, and of course Chengdu. The US will start deployment of JSF by 2019 and they will form the backbone of their force for the next 2-3 decades. The time for unmanned fighters is yet to come.

Rafale will be a potent force in the next decade and will form a strong deterrent to PAF, and the CAF. To support a 55 squadron IAF by 2025- 2030 period as elaborated by Saurav Jha in his blog, their is room for Rafale, Tejas MK2 and SU-30MKI. but defence spending has to be ramped up by 50% in the XIIth Five year plan period to support these grandiose ambitions of the IAF.

Our rivals are China and Pakistan, not France and England. Quantity has a quality of it's own!....as Lenin is supposed to have said.

[member_23694]

+1

After 2020+ the years will be of 5th gen + UCAV's

Also my guess is IAF will reform its strategy when LCA mk2 take the sky or good progress in shown on AMCA front ,HAL can actually change the game if mk2 or AMCA comes as a strong contender ( +ve thoughts ).

Another bird that has not been in news for quite sometime is AURA first flight is expected near 2015(wiki)

so best of luck Dassault/France/EADS

this is height of optimism
Only thing missing was that by 2020 IAF will be at par with USAF. Can we be a realistic with the timelines for indigenous development programs.
Its April 2014, there is no LCA Mk.1 SP1. No deadline for the rollout for the Mk.2 , i am not talking of the first flight.
AMCA seems to be still in blackboard with generous use of chalk and duster.
Regarding UCAV, do we have an proper indigenous drone with missile firing capability.

I wish we are par with USAF in 2020 but still reality states otherwise

[SaiK]

wishing to be on par with USAF means you have to first think like them as a precondition., and the rest follows from there.

[NRao]

No FGFA in 2016? : (

[member_23694]

first think like them as a precondition., and the rest follows from there.

a bit out of topic ..but can't help..
Pearl Harbor led to Atom Bomb on Japan
Sputnik and 1st Cosmonaut led to Apollo
9/11 led to non-stop attack against terror and got all the masterminds (right to the top)

So as suggested above in earlier post having all such kind of indigenous gizmos by 2020 or around we need something special like this country has never seen before. Simple

[Philip]

Is there a desperate attempt by vested interests in seeing this flying camel from the French "Foreign Legion",gt its nose inside the IAF's tent before the hustings? Scamthony is least bothered about taking a decision,as he is totally engaged 24X7 in trying to drum up a "turd front" of anti-BJP parties! This is his fond hope of remaining as "Deaf Min." in the event that a Congress -led coalition manages to cross the line first. If as is most likely,an NDA coalition comes to power,the Raffy could be in trouble on the issue of costs.

[tushar_m]

+1

After 2020+ the years will be of 5th gen + UCAV's

Also my guess is IAF will reform its strategy when LCA mk2 take the sky or good progress in shown on AMCA front ,HAL can actually change the game if mk2 or AMCA comes as a strong contender ( +ve thoughts ).

Another bird that has not been in news for quite sometime is AURA first flight is expected near 2015(wiki)

so best of luck Dassault/France/EADS

this is height of optimism
Only thing missing was that by 2020 IAF will be at par with USAF. Can we be a realistic with the timelines for indigenous development programs.
Its April 2014, there is no LCA Mk.1 SP1. No deadline for the rollout for the Mk.2 , i am not talking of the first flight.
AMCA seems to be still in blackboard with generous use of chalk and duster.
Regarding UCAV, do we have an proper indigenous drone with missile firing capability.

I wish we are par with USAF in 2020 but still reality states otherwise

See USAF is building a castle with JSF/F35 & its friends are following knowing very well that there are many problems with the plane itself (structure, software etc).

And 2020 is not a bad timeline , it is well within the time-frame of mk2 ,fgfa & aura

I didn't say AMCA will fly & be ready near 2020 , i just said if it comes as a strong contender (most of the time consuming sw,fbw etc work could be taken from LCA itself).

finally about UAV with missile firing

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... ehicle.htm

The Indian Armed Forces have to judiciously examine their future requirements of UAVs. In as much as the Army is concerned at the strategic and operational levels, there is a requirement for UCAVs and short range loitering missiles. The UCAVs could be formed on the Herons each of them mounted with two Fire and Forget missiles. Each divisional artillery brigade must have a battery of UCAVs comprising eight aerial systems.


another report of Herons being armed with Hellfire missiles

http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... 12122.html

Again i was making a general point not a technical one , you can discuss the technical points of all these projects with lot of experienced & well informed guys here at BRF

[Paul]

Is there a desperate attempt by vested interests in seeing this flying camel from the French "Foreign Legion",gt its nose inside the IAF's tent before the hustings? Scamthony is least bothered about taking a decision,as he is totally engaged 24X7 in trying to drum up a "turd front" of anti-BJP parties! This is his fond hope of remaining as "Deaf Min." in the event that a Congress -led coalition manages to cross the line first. If as is most likely,an NDA coalition comes to power,the Raffy could be in trouble on the issue of costs.

Philip, We need to test the next generation of nukes for the Arihant class subs soon, and this will surely lead to an embargo the GE-414 engines, thus effectively shutting down the LCA prduction line for a few years.

To get to a 55 squadron IAF by 2027 or so we need to hedge our bets....I am leaning in favor of the Rafale for this reason....Defence spending has to go up by at least 50% for this to happen.

[member_23694]

finally about UAV with missile firing

I was specific about indigenous capability which we don't have .

Again i was making a general point not a technical one , you can discuss the technical points of all these projects

yes me too , was discussing on a general level. If we go to technical details then probably things will be much more challenging

So till then we need Rafale to take care of the IAF requirements

[Manish_Sharma]

+1

After 2020+ the years will be of 5th gen + UCAV's

Also my guess is IAF will reform its strategy when LCA mk2 take the sky or good progress in shown on AMCA front ,HAL can actually change the game if mk2 or AMCA comes as a strong contender ( +ve thoughts ).

Another bird that has not been in news for quite sometime is AURA first flight is expected near 2015(wiki)

so best of luck Dassault/France/EADS

Amrikans put up a fighter in sky without gun in 60s, they found out soon. And now even Raptor has gun.

Forget about manned jets going out till 2060.

[tushar_m]

well we are using mig21 till now when all its friends & colleges of that time are dead , so i agree with you on that point

but we have to understand that keeping a minimum deterrence is not our goal now , we need more of force projection in current scenario.for all that we need 5th gen , UAV/UCAV & other assets that will go along with the 4th gen stuff in IAF inventory.

Secondly , for long we had govt. in the center which more of less treat our armed forces not as companions but sort of rivals .The nervousness shown by Govt. to the military movements during Gen V K Singh 's retirement is one such example.

we can only hope that the next Govt. will change that & we will party if all the thing's that we target for 2020 are achieved.

[Philip]

Interesting,I asked the gent quoted earlier about gun firing trials on the LCA.Yet to be done.I mentioned Rakesh Sharma's words about gun gas ingestion,vibration and other problems that aircraft experienced during these trials.The gent and I had a conversation about the relevance of a gun in the context of sophisticated AAMs,BVR warfare,EW defences,decoys,etc. and why some air forces like the Israelis insisted on their aircraft retaining the gun,the only weapon left when missiles run out!

[Brando]

new & unexpected news coming in at this time

Deal for 126 Rafale fighters close to being signed

just days after this

Antony refuses govt guarantee to France for Rafale deal

Same old, same old really. This is the same "one step forward, two steps back" waltz that the AK skirt at the MoD has been doing for the last 7-8 years at the helm.

The MMRCA deal, the Tejas induction, the Arjun Mk2 - basically anything and everything that should have been done will be done only by the next defense minister. Without the economy powering the defense budget, major programs will languish and defense will always be given the short end of the stick as long as there are welfare programs to waste money on.

[Philip]

AKA in an interview in "God's own country", says that "he was never a Delhi man"! What was or is he then? He hasn't the slightest interest in the country's defence,only the defence of his own dhoti.

His dereliction of duty stands out loud and clear ,in braille too,for the deaf and dumb and blind -that instead of staying at his post in defending the country,he has fled to the coolth of the backwaters and coconut groves,leaving the "heat" of Delhi and chaos in his ministry behind.His boss,the mendicant of snake-oil is also reported as wanting to "leave early",that is his official residence,for a palatial and salubrious 3.5 acre senior citizen's retreat on Motilal Marg (?),for just one inmate-himself! Reward for a loyal serf."Well done thou good and faithful chaprasi"!

Talk about bandicoots leaving the sinking ship....!

[NRao]

Affordable air power

A request for proposals (RfP) finally went out on July 28, 2007 for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCAs), with an option for 63 more. Rs.42,000 crore, then worth approximately $10.25 billion, was budgeted to purchase the 126 aircraft. Recent reports indicate that the short-listed Rafales are now expected to cost over $20 billion, not least because of nearly 50 “miscellaneous” items that were left unpriced as part of the original French bid. Not only will the 126 aircraft cost about twice as much in dollar terms as originally budgeted for, depreciation of the rupee with respect to the dollar since the RfP was issued from less than 41 to over 60 will force us to effectively pay about three times as much, nearly Rs.120,000 crore, just in initial acquisition costs with over Rs.30,000 crore of that paid up front.

: )

Interestingly, five of the same aircraft that participated in the Indian MMRCA competition were simultaneously bid for in a similar Brazilian tender. The head of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), Juniti Saito, has recently stated that they chose the Swedish Gripen NG after an exhaustive evaluation emphasised its performance, the degree of technology transfer and price. The FAB estimated that it would cost $4,000 per flying hour rather than about $14,000 for the heavier Rafale. SAAB quoted $4.5 billion as the initial acquisition cost of the Gripens plus $1.5 billion for maintenance support over 30 years while the Rafale was $8.2 billion, plus $4 billion.

These figures for the Rafale are in line with those from the defence and security committee of the French Senat which estimated in 2011 that the Rafale programme cost would be €43.56 billion for 286 aircraft.

The largely Indian designed and developed Tejas multirole light combat aircraft (LCA) is not in the same class as the Rafale, but it is far more capable than the MiG-21s it was designed to replace. Modern radar and ground targeting systems, both coupled to a helmet-mounted display and sight, confer superb target acquisition and missile launch capability. Advanced beyond visual range and close combat missiles, along with precision guided munitions, make it more potent than the more powerful MiG-23s and -27s. Even if unit prices rise to $30 million by the time it attains full operational capability, 126 Tejas fighters would still cost well under $4 billion, or a fifth of an equal number of Rafales.

Operating costs would probably be comparable to that of the frugal Gripen largely because it is small, light and powered by a slightly different version of the efficient and hugely reliable GE-F404 engines that also power currently operational Gripens.

[srai]

^^^

Rafale is unaffordable. It would have been better for the IAF to buy 2 to 4 squadrons worth of second hand Mirage-2000s and MiG-29s and refurbish them to its UPG standards. This together with more LCA Mk.1/2 orders (4 Mk.1 plus 6 Mk.2 squadrons) along with 2 additional Su-30MKI squadrons would have been sufficient till 2030.

[member_20453]

Always been saying it Rafale is far too expensive for long term use in IAF, it will drain funds in IAF fast at expense of other services. Moreover, anything more than 126 fighters would be even more expensive. I think an immediate increase of orders of LCA MK-1 from 40 to lets say around 80 would be great, i.e 4 squadrons, 2 for IAF 1 for IN as LIFT trainer for last phase of Fight Pilot training majority twin seater trainers. 1 Agressor/Demo sqdron can be used for developing of tactics & airshow demos.

The LCA mk-2 order is 83 for IAF and 46 for IN i.e 129, the IAF's order can be increased to over 170, we'd end up with around 300 LCA's.

In order to make up for shortage till LCA production picks up, they can order another 40-60 Super MKI with Brahmos ability

[member_28397]

More than a decade of MRCA debate, now majority of posters wants this deal to be scrapped .
Can somebody open a poll on this.

[NRao]

Well, the issue, now, is the price. Are we going to poll what is the best when the price - for whatever reason - has gone up three times?

Besides there is an alternative that may not be a perfect fit, but is affordable. And is Indian!!

[member_23694]

More than a decade of MRCA debate, now majority of posters wants this deal to be scrapped

That is the problem , forget about the planners, even there is inconsistency among the posters and ultimately a few cents saved in the short term ultimately resulting in tonnes spent due to some knee jerk purchase later.

Well, the issue, now, is the price.

Regarding the price, i believe people forget the 50% offset clause in the deal [roughly $10 billion with current cost] and the kind of growth it can lead for private aerospace sector which can be leveraged for future indigenous product. Currently even a MRF tyre for a Sukhoi makes headline

[Viv S]

That is the problem , forget about the planners, even there is inconsistency among the posters and ultimately a few cents saved in the short term ultimately resulting in tonnes spent due to some knee jerk purchase later.

Actually, if you include the supplementary munitions contract for the Rafale, we could save upto $10 billion (or about 1 trillion¢).

Regarding the price, i believe people forget the 50% offset clause in the deal [roughly $10 billion with current cost] and the kind of growth it can lead for private aerospace sector which can be leveraged for future indigenous product. Currently even a MRF tyre for a Sukhoi makes headline

That's our own money, rather than French investment, that we're talking about. $12 billion into the Tejas program would deliver 400 aircraft to the IAF, with most of it paid out to Indian companies. With the production scaled up we could even contemplate exports (particularly for the trainer). Leaving $8 billion for R&D budgets, or force multipliers like AWACS, tankers & Sukhois, or 5th gen aircraft like the PAK FA & F-35. Take your pick.

[member_23694]

Take your pick

My pick is simple . Get the best Tech from wherever possible. Buy/Beg/Borrow/Steal, I don't care.

Next is the debate on quantity over quality. Does it make sense for US to have 190 F-22 and another 2400 F - 35, when with this money they could have just reopened the F-16/F-18 production line and made 50000 of them .
Should IAF start manufacturing another 1000 jags/mig 27 etc ? it will probably be cheaper than Tejas and all the hard point
debate ends there.

Leaving $8 billion for R&D budgets

If money was the constraint for the progress in Indian defence R&D , then believe me, China would have had a 6th fighter by now.

However I will be the biggest critic of Rafale deal [though I still like the plane ] if the deal does NOT ensure that India receive significant TOT that can help develop Indian aerospace industry and can be leveraged for future indigenous product.

Honestly I never understand how can one speak about Tejas and Rafale in the same breath

5th gen aircraft like the PAK FA & F-35

How many PAK FA and F 35 we get from $8 billion. If Rafale is proving costly then should we even think of these other options. And suppose one saves this much money then why not we get 8 B-2

Sir , please understand we have not yet manufactured a world class automobile which has acceptance world over and within the country to people buy them as a cheap alternative. LCA has the potential to be a quality product but till then we need Rafale along with its Tech.

[Cain Marko]

More than a decade of MRCas.A debate, now majority of posters wants this deal to be scrapped

That is the problem , forget about the planners, even there is inconsistency among the posters and ultimately a few cents saved in the short term ultimately resulting in tonnes spent due to some knee jerk purchase later.:

Actually, I was calling the mrca deal a waste almost 5 years ago, the whole deal seemed a fiasco for a number of reasons, from the intractable delays to the variety in contestants. In any case, it is a good thing that folks are flexible enough in their thinking that they change their views with changing situations.

[Viv S]

Next is the debate on quantity over quality. Does it make sense for US to have 190 F-22 and another 2400 F - 35, when with this money they could have just reopened the F-16/F-18 production line and made 50000 of them .
Should IAF start manufacturing another 1000 jags/mig 27 etc ? it will probably be cheaper than Tejas and all the hard point
debate ends there.

They would hardly have gotten 50,000 F-16/F-18s for the same cost. Maybe... 5000 legacy aircraft in lieu of the 2400 F-35. Not a very cost effective option given the far far higher attrition rate it would suffer in combat. Same for the IAF's Jaguars/MiGs - being single role aircraft they'll need to operate with escorts. Factor in attrition and it will turn out of be an expensive proposition as well.

And the debate is not as simplistic as you're making it out to be i.e. quantity over quality always.

I can also make a similar argument - should the IAF continue with the Rafale purchase if the French tomorrow decide to charge $40 billion instead of $20 billion? After all, it'll still be better than the Tejas.

The Rafale's acquisition was one thing when it was to start in 2012 and cost $11 billion and a very different prospect when it begins in 2017 and costs $20 billion+. Under the current dimensions, the Tejas delivers better value-for-money.

If money was the constraint for the progress in Indian defence R&D , then believe me, China would have had a 6th fighter by now.
However I will be the biggest critic of Rafale deal [though I still like the plane ] if the deal does NOT ensure that India receive significant TOT that can help develop Indian aerospace industry and can be leveraged for future indigenous product.

Just 15 years ago, China was still building variants of the MiG-21. If they'll be fielding a fifth gen aircraft before long, its because they've invested the requisite time and money in their domestic industry.

License building aircraft for decades didn't change the fact that the scientists and engineers of ADA had to start from damn near scratch when they took up the challenge of developing the Tejas. Over the last few years we've already developed core competencies in composites, airframe design, flight control systems & systems integration, achieved critical mass in EW tech and before the end of the decade we'll developed the requisite production tech.

Receiving the 'blueprints' to the SPECTRA or OSF won't enable us somehow leapfrog the process and straightaway develop next gen of those products. ToT from the Rafale isn't going to speed up or improve the Tejas Mk2 which will already be in production by the time, the tech is assimilated. The AMCA on other hand is intended to be a generation ahead of even the Rafale. Where developmental bottlenecks are identified, the process can still be sped up by opting for outside consultancy.

Honestly I never understand how can one speak about Tejas and Rafale in the same breath

Honestly, I don't know how one can fathom paying as much for a Rafale as we're paying for an AEW&C aircraft. For all its 'mid tech' nature, when backed by an AEW&C (or even an AESA equipped Sukhoi), I'll bet on the Tejas against the Rafale every single time.

5th gen aircraft like the PAK FA & F-35

How many PAK FA and F 35 we get from $8 billion. If Rafale is proving costly then should we even think of these other options. And suppose one saves this much money then why not we get 8 B-2

For $8 billion, we'd get about 60 F-35s off-the-shelf. The PAK FA's costs are mired in haze right now, but around 45 would be my guess.

Sir , please understand we have not yet manufactured a world class automobile which has acceptance world over and within the country to people buy them as a cheap alternative. LCA has the potential to be a quality product but till then we need Rafale along with its Tech.

Actually, we manufacture plenty of world class automobiles. Unfortunately, the said manufacturing has not enabled us to develop a world class automobile. Nor should we expect ToT from the Rafale to be a shortcut to the top.

[NRao]

Regarding the price, i believe people forget the 50% offset clause in the deal [roughly $10 billion with current cost] and the kind of growth it can lead for private aerospace sector which can be leveraged for future indigenous product. Currently even a MRF tyre for a Sukhoi makes headline

It still does not justify this purchase - with an *upfront known component* of 300% increase from the allocated funds. (BTW, we need to talk in terms of Rs and NOT Dollars on this matter - makes a big difference.)

What in the offset proposals is of importance to India as we speak? Do we know that? What have the French promised India? A computational testing facility to test nuclear devices? Or *all* the test data for the Rafale? Or MetSci data for engines? Or making tyres for the Rafale and the M2Ks - at 3 times the price and after 15 years? Yar kuch cheese ke bat karo. What is this offset, shofset? IMHO, India has gone past a great deal of "stuff" - not overcome every detail, but really does not need the hand holding that was needed 10 years ago - actually perhaps needs hand holding in more advanced "stuff".

Having said that I understand the need for the IAF to "make her numbers". But, even if it is a foreign plane, I would prefer one that is a "throw away" at mid-life. Get something that will keep ChiPak at bay, something that is "affordable", buy them off-the-shelf (NO ToT please, or making it cheaper in India, that experiment should be buried IMHO).



I have said this plenty of times: AMCA should be the goal. It is a risk no two ways about that, but it is a manageable/controllable risk - unlike the Rafale, the FGFA and actually even the MKI.

But, most of all, Indians need to change, that will reflect on a better India and thus the system. I am not sure if I will see that in my life time (not too much left - so that is a good part).

[member_23694]

But, most of all, Indians need to change, that will reflect on a better India and thus the system. I am not sure if I will see that in my life time (not too much left - so that is a good part).

Don't need to be sentimental Sir. Actually I too don't want we continue to catch up with the rest of the world and then they again move ahead and this is the reason I want that we buy/beg/borrow/steal tech from where ever possible and we come to some level playing field and then work towards being pioneer in future tech.
Cryo tech made us wait for 20 year, don't have more patience . Spend money , get the tech and by 2021 have first true 5th gen AMCA flight and first Indian astronout in space on Indian rocket

[NRao]

I think we have a winner:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1631315

Bill said so!!!!

[vishvak]

X-post from Indo-US Strategic News and Discussion
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1631909

* because of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's inability to water down the Nuclear Liability Act and Defence Minister A.K. Antony's decision to prefer the French Rafale fighter to its US rival, "orders were given to activate the Khalistan file so as to create embarrassment for Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh".

OT here since it adds nothing to details except competition

[Avarachan]

This is K.P. Nayar from Feb. 2012. It's worth re-reading.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120206/j ... 098135.jsp
The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.

India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.

It was in direct contrast to Washington’s approach: the bulk of India’s intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.

In addition, spread across India’s entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need ....

Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job ....

Levitte was senior diplomatic adviser to Chirac too when Brajesh Mishra, the then principal secretary to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, flew to Paris as his first stop abroad seeking diplomatic support after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Mishra found such support in Paris before he extracted reluctant support from Moscow.

Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.
Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.

Within the political and civilian leadership of India’s defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.

[chackojoseph]

Civvie nuke deal was French idea. We should buy 65 odd Rafales for that and its a worthy plane.

[vishvak]

It is a worthy plane, sir but what about life cycle costs of additional 65 planes.

[Paul]

We should ask them to give a free Barracude nuke sub as a quid pro quo for the deal.

[Viv S]

Civvie nuke deal was French idea. We should buy 65 odd Rafales for that and its a worthy plane.

French and Russian. Both of whom were interested in selling nuclear reactors/material/technology to India. With Atomstroyexport is already involved in Kudankulam, a more apt 'reward' for France will be a contract for Areva. And since the Americans were the ones who swung the NSG exemption for India, maybe a contract to Westinghouse as well. Being a supporter of nuclear power, I'm all for it.

But on the defence front, we can't really afford prolificacy at this stage. Especially not in lieu of a domestic aircraft that's on the verge of maturity.

[srin]

Civvie nuke deal was French idea. We should buy 65 odd Rafales for that and its a worthy plane.

Reducing the deal size is going to affect the volume discounts typical of these deals and the offsets. And then, it is possible for Eurofighter to say that they could have been cheaper if the number of units was 65 instead of 126.

So - at best, you are asking for renegotiations and at worst, you are asking for new tender.

[Manish_Sharma]

This is K.P. Nayar from Feb. 2012. It's worth re-reading.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120206/j ... 098135.jsp
The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.

India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.

It was in direct contrast to Washington’s approach: the bulk of India’s intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.

In addition, spread across India’s entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need ....

Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job ....

Levitte was senior diplomatic adviser to Chirac too when Brajesh Mishra, the then principal secretary to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, flew to Paris as his first stop abroad seeking diplomatic support after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Mishra found such support in Paris before he extracted reluctant support from Moscow.

Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.
Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.

Within the political and civilian leadership of India’s defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.

Sahastron dhanyawaad shriman for posting this gem _/\_

Go Katrina go...



http://rafale.freeforums.org/dossier-ra ... g-t31.html

Dossier Rafale :

Airframe, fly-by-wire, CAG


Formula :

The extreme versatility required for the new aircraft draw Dassault to choose the delta-canards aerodynamic configuration on a moderate weight of 10-tons airframe with a high thrust (15 tons with two M88-2).

Experts in delta wings, with the need to do the best as well in air-superiority as for very low level penetration, the research departments chose a moderate wing sweep and a high aspect ratio (48° versus 58° for the Mirage 2000). The wing is mounted on a medium height on the fuselage, and is improved with LERX forming a 72° angle, elevons, and one mobile leading edge slate per wing on all their length.

So as to further optimize those wings, large area canards plans are positioned near and slightly above the wing (coupled canards) : this position, ideal for high alpha air flows but also during cruise, provides the best behavior for all regimes, and all payloads.

Another new feature of the Rafale formula : the air intakes are semi-ventral with no moving parts. They provide better air supply from 0 to Mach 1.8, from -3 to 9 g. In addition, again to make the airframe as simple as possible, those intakes as designed so as not to use a boundary layer sucking device.

Requirements in terms of yaw stability being already met with this configuration, the lone vertical fin is proved to be enough.

The aircraft uses no airbrake : canards and elevons were chosen to do the job accoring to the flight parameters.

Material and strength :

The light weith of the aircraft (only one ton heavier than the F-16) has been obtained by abundant use of composite material, from carbon fiber (belly, back, wings, around the cockpit), kevlar (nose and rear fuselage), hybrids, aluminum alloys (with lithium) and titan. Finally, at least 30 per cent of the airframe is made of composite materials. This makes the Rafale very strong while being light, easily exceeding the planned 30 years of service. Even after 10,000 flight hours (the Armée de l'Air plans on 7,000 hours with 3,500 landings), the airframe is still capable to sustain 185 per cent of the nominal efforts before breaking.

Survivability

Also influencing the aircraft shape : the survivability requirements drove to attenuate as much as possible the RCS (Radar Cross Section) as well as the IR (infrared) signature. To achieve this, the airframe has no right angle, or very few, no rupture, no slot of relief and the shape is linear. The air intake ducts are "double-S" shaped so as to hide the compressor blades. Some areas remained very hard to hide, and thus, they were concentrated on the airframe and treated with RAM (Radar absorbant materials), saw tooth on mobile parts, gold layer in the cockpit canopy so as to hide to pit. The radome only allow the RBE-2 waves to pass, then every antennas and little shapes as well as the fin are made of radar transparent materials. Other solutions are applied for the IR signature, some weapons are also treated (Scalp) against radar waves.

All those solutions (but not only those) allow the Rafale to be "discreet", which materialize though the adoption by armies of special tactics to benefit from this discretion affecting the hostile sensors' ranges.

Controls

The aircraft controls are actioned by a double hydraulic circuit providing 350 bars (5,000 psi). The actuators are controlled by digital fly-by-wire.

The CAG (Contrôle Actif Généralisé = Active Global Control ?) acts on three digital channel, and an analog channel for back up, which can be used automatically of if the pilot wants it (less prone to jamming, but less performant). Those four channels are totally independant which blocks any catastrophic software bugs. The system allows for exemple to deal with the moderate longitudinal negative stability, to use an auto-trim, to adapt the controls sensitivity according to the flight phase, due to its high integration to use a extremely sophisticated auto-pilot, and in case of damage, to reconfigure automatically the controls so as to preserve the handling qualities. All of this means that the CAG is a major asset to reduce the pilot workload and let him concentrate on the tactical situation instead of on the flight.

Those FBW also give the aircraft both remarkable agility and maneuverability, as well as for air superiority as for low level penetration during which an heavily loaded Rafale have to cope with 5.5g accelerations in transonic speeds at 100 feet.

For example, even with the maximum payload, the response in roll keeps nearly unchanged.

Some data :

speeds from 100kts (in all configurations, even 24.5 tons and fully controllable in roll) to Mach 1.8 (though Mach 2.0 is possible). Fuel tanks qualified for Mach 1.6. During dogfights against M2000, a Rafale slowed down to 18 kts without loss of control.
Corner speed : 360 kts ;
Software limits :
Angle of attack : 29 or 30° in air-to-air, 25° with heavy payloads such as Scalp, 2000L fuel tanks, air-to-ground weapons. The aircraft has shown stable at 32°, and even reached 100° with a negative speed of -40kts without loss of control) ;
roll rate : 290°/s clean, 270°/s in air-to-air, 190°/s in air-to-ground configuration ;
acceleration Gz : 9g in air-to-air configuration (maximum : 11g), 5.5g in air-to-ground configuration.


Other demonstrated performances : take off in 400 meters in air-to-air configuration, 600 meters in heavy configuration, approach speed : 115kts, with a sink rate of 4 m/s without rounding out.

The 10 tons fighter can take off at a MTOW of 24.5 tons, with a possibility to increase it up to 27 tons.


Rafale M

The Rafale M has a strengthened structure and a retractable ladder. Its landing gear is also strengthened so as to cope with sink rate of 6.5 m/s. The nose landing gear uses the "jumper strut" technology so as to allow the fighter to take off after only a 75 meters run with a payload exceeding 21.5 tons (22.5 tons demonstrated). Its bring back capability is of 15.7 tons, which allow not to waste costly weapons.

The commonality requirement induced that all variants are treated against corrosion.

[member_28476]

Hello,
i will just give a lilttle info for my first post... And answer to another post.
SNECMA recently stated that indian M88 will be 100% indian made.
About the flyaway cost i used in an article in CAnada, i know it is very complicated to calculate fighter costs. So i ad to stick to one official number. But the numbers are official and documented here. http://www.senat.fr/rap/a13-158-8/a13-158-814.html
Do not forget they include VAT (20%) whcich is not charged for exports

[Viv S]

Hello,
i will just give a lilttle info for my first post... And answer to another post.

Welcome to BRF Pagot. Hope to see you as a regular here.

SNECMA recently stated that indian M88 will be 100% indian made.

HAL is also manufacturing the RD-33MK & AL-31FP including the engine core/hot section as well as its turbine blades. Trouble is, this (as well as M-88 production) wouldn't translate into anything more than a jobs program. ToT (and this is particularly true for metallurgy heavy gas turbine development) goes only so far in nurturing domestic capabilities.

France took well over a decade to develop the M88 (Rafale prototypes IIRC were powered by the GE F404) and that was preceded by decades of R&D. Whatever the intentions behind it may be, fact is India can't bridge that gap by signing a cheque. The same capital invested in GRTE on the other hand might actually lead to generation of core competencies in turbine development.

The Kaveri may not power the Tejas, but given a decade or so long focused development, will be sufficient to power the HAL's future UAV/UCAVs (similar to the way the M88 will power the Dassault Neuron).

About the flyaway cost i used in an article in CAnada, i know it is very complicated to calculate fighter costs. So i ad to stick to one official number. But the numbers are official and documented here. http://www.senat.fr/rap/a13-158-8/a13-158-814.html
Do not forget they include VAT (20%) whcich is not charged for exports

So that's about $100M or $80M minus VAT. Sounds about right. But this does not include profit margins, which given that the development was partially funded by the private industry will not be insignificant. May well bring us back to about $100M. And there's spares, maintenance, training, support infrastructure for the IAF as well as production infrastructure & training for HAL BEL Reliance & Co.

Also with the MICAs for the Mirages coming in at $2.7M a pop (compared to Aim-120C7s for SK at $1.7M/unit), one has to be worried about what the complementary munitions package (MICA, Meteor & AASM) for the Rafale will cost.

[Cain Marko]

My gut feeling is that the Rafale will be another Mirage 2000 story in the IAF. With the M2K, the original idea was to see a good number of sqds (6+), however, pricey as the product was, only a small fraction of the original numbers are to be seen today. Hell, they even built up the infrastructure to support 150 odd M2ks iirc. But alas, French products were always a bit out of reach, price wise. Even in the 90s, a completely different a/c (namely the flanker) was preferred over the M2K because the price again came in the way. I see history repeating itself, India will probably buy the Rafale, but in a smaller quantity:

60 birds @ $ 10 billion for the following reasons:

The IAF desperately WANTS this bird for a number of crucial reasons:

1) Diversifies acquisitions and prevents over-reliance on the Russians, or possibly the US. This independence is something that the IAF cherishes enough to put up with the miseries of having multiple types in service.
2) The Rafale is without doubt imho, the best in all 4.5 gen a/c - combining exceptional "weight lifting" capacity on par with a Su-34, on an economical and small airframe/engine combo (more or less equal to the F16 blk60). Likely the best life-cycle costs after the Gripen.
3) Exceptional aero-dynamic performance - supercruise, high ITR/STR, acceleration, very good slow-speed handling
4) Very exotic weapons mix - Meteor, AASM, Mica IIR - that would provide tremendous versatility in operational tactics
5) Very exotic sensor mix combining AESA radar, next gen IRST, and a highly regarded EW suite - SPECTRA - again huge operational advantages, the latter it seems is the Rafale's true USP
6) Points 3, 4, and 5 will give it a very clear edge over anything CHIF-PAF can conjure up in the next decade. Possibly competitive against VLO threats as well. At least ATLC 09 results are very strongly in favor of such a conclusion
7) Obvious buffer to dwindling numbers
Reliable supplier in France
9) BJP is very tight with the French, and I suspect their support of ABV during the sanctions era post POKII will not be forgotten by the BJP/NDA. Remember, the M2K was almost a done deal when the NDA lost - the $ 5 billion purchase then seemed like a sure thing. They might very well feel beholden (rightly or wrongly)

All in all, good reasons to go with a few Rafale with options for more -just hope they do it quick - considering it an interim purchase.

JMT

[maitya]

Hello,
i will just give a lilttle info for my first post... And answer to another post.

Welcome to BRF Pagot. Hope to see you as a regular here.

SNECMA recently stated that indian M88 will be 100% indian made.

HAL is also manufacturing the RD-33MK & AL-31FP including the engine core/hot section as well as its turbine blades. Trouble is, this (as well as M-88 production) wouldn't translate into anything more than a jobs program. ToT (and this is particularly true for metallurgy heavy gas turbine development) goes only so far in nurturing domestic capabilities.

France took well over a decade to develop the M88 (Rafale prototypes IIRC were powered by the GE F404) and that was preceded by decades of R&D. Whatever the intentions behind it may be, fact is India can't bridge that gap by signing a cheque. The same capital invested in GRTE on the other hand might actually lead to generation of core competencies in turbine development.

The Kaveri may not power the Tejas, but given a decade or so long focused development, will be sufficient to power the HAL's future UAV/UCAVs (similar to the way the M88 will power the Dassault Neuron).

Though in agreement on the genric thrust of the above argument, some aspects needs correcting and clarifying:

First of all, we do NOT manufacture AL-31FL HPT/LPT disks and blades ... they are directly imported from Russia and HAL merely assembles them - even the compressor blades and disks are imported.
It's pertinent note here that the bulk production of compressor disks for Adour (and Kaveri) based on Titanium alloys Ti26A (Ti685) has just about started (IIRC around 2012 or so) by MIDHANI employing the DMRL infrastructure and technology.

So, as far as M-88 is concerned, if a well-thought-out ToT regime is negotiated and contracted for, the max we could get is the manufacturing technology/knowhow of some such critical engine tech.
And as you have rightly pointed out the R&D tech dev and core-competency towards turbofan core design and manufacturing is not going to be available via these type of ToT route ... those needs solid and decades of R&D, and there are absolutely no shortcuts.


Let's take the following example:
For example, M-88 HPT blades are based 1st-gen SCBs AM1/AM2 (max TeT achieved is approx 1650deg C - do note for AL-31FP that max TeT number is approx 1690deg C or so).
If suppose magically, Snecma agrees to do a full ToT of HPT/LPT blades/discs etc we will still have to import the required Vacuum Investment casting furnaces/infra etc that would allow the required temperature-gradient controlled crystallisation (at the solid-liquid interface where dendrite structure is being created) - this aspect is critical towards the formation of homogeneous fine dendrite structure with low porosity required for AM1/AM2.
Now this investment casting infra will allow casting of various blades (of various Superalloy compositions etc) over a range of temperature-gradient, which will be slightly more than that's required for AM1/AM2 series.


However tomorrow, suppose there's a need of casting another set a single-crystal turbine-blades with slightly diff characteristics (let's assume a modest 30deg C more TeT than that of M-88). Now this vacuum investment casting infra would be of no use if that addn temp and the required TMF and Creep-resistance factors being sought for, demands a slightly higher liquid-solid-interface temperature gradient.

Make no mistake, using this same infra you will still be able cast those shiny turbine-blades (and even present them in assorted AI's for photo-ops etc), but they will not be able to withstand the required TMF and Creep-resistance strengths required at those elevated (addn 30deg C) temp (i.e they will start failing at a much faster rate which would make it unacceptable etc.).

To put things into perspective just as an example, for AL-31FP the Turbine Blades are touted to have this temperature gradient requirement (at this solid-liquid interface) of the range of 200degC/cm in a monocrystalline application (aka for AL-31FP Turbine SCBs) ... while the generically available vacuum investment furnaces normally provide this solid-liquid interface temperature gradient of about 30-50degC/cm.

So how could it be possible for HAL (or anybody) to manufacture the AL-31FP tubine blades (and discks etc) in the absence of those specifically manufactured, and thus proprietary, investment furnaces.

And more importantly, why would Russia export those furnaces (and more importantly the exact proprietary casting and other manufacturing parameters) to India - for "friendship" is it?


Coming back to the topic of M-88 (and the larger Rafale deal etc) ToT etc - yes it is very positive thing if it's done in full intent and purpose as it will reduce dependence on OEM for a strategic assets (and less prone to price gouging etc) as well as it would help in building the required manufacturing infra for similar parallel programs etc.
But, beyond a apoint, it will still be of marginal help in turbofan turbine-core material technology development front - the basic aspects of which will still be required to be developed via solid and long R&D.

There's simply no other way.