Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2012 03:24

If you are looking for a wallpaper of a nice "desi-themed" Katrina, click on the link below;

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--gniP81LATE/T ... -final.jpg

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 01 Feb 2012 03:27

Raffy <3 <3

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 01 Feb 2012 03:29

Dassault will be required to supply 18 “made-in-France” Rafales in three-four years. After that, manufacturing will progressively shift to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Bangalore, which will build a new manufacturing line for the Eurofighter .

From the Ajai Shukla article in Business standard

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 01 Feb 2012 03:48

^^ He actually meant to say Rafale is Euro-fighter. It fought out Typhoon of European consortium and came out victorious.
Euro-Fighter

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/avi ... 8328870e9f

Following the announcement of the final selection of the Rafale in the frame of the MMRCA program, Dassault Aviation and its partners are honored and grateful to the Indian Government and the people of India to be given the opportunity to extend their long-lasting cooperation.

Dassault Aviation and its partners reiterate their commitment to meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force and underline their pride in contributing to India’s defence for over half a century.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 01 Feb 2012 04:29

Whether graft is involved or not, the better fighter won. The first time I saw the Rafale I remember wishing India could get this gorgeous fighter, Never thought it would happen though. Hopefully this will be leveraged vis a vis Kaveri.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Feb 2012 04:36

I had mentioned previously that the MMRCA deal was going to be nearer $18 bn. This seems to confirm it:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 04651.aspx

For 126 ac, it works out to $146MM unit cost for the L1. As you add in the accessories, it will go higher. My bet is that MoF is going to send it back to MoD because it will not want to be cornered by the technical process (the 600 parameters) into rubber stamping the deal.

Putting it another way, MoF will want to show who's boss when it comes to money. I hope it doesn't but Babus are Babus and MoF will want to rake MoD over the coals at the Cabinet level (Group of Empowered Ministers) just to enable PKM to get in a couple of shots at AKA.

This is not over by a long shot which is too bad.

Added later:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 706551.cms

"When the MMRCA selection process was initiated by MoD in mid-2007, the overall project cost was pegged at Rs 42,000 crore or $10.4 billion for 126 fighters. Since then, with inflation also being factored in, revised estimates indicate the figure will touch $20 billion, if not exceed it. If India goes in for 189 jets, it will further head north. "

Rajat Pandit is not the sharpest tool in the shed nor is he burdened with originality or investigative reporting skills. What this means is he got briefed.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 01 Feb 2012 05:00

Rafale 4tw! Congrats Dassault!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Feb 2012 05:50

"This deal, along with the new offset policy retrospected, will get $6 billion through offsets and $6 billion through technology transfers. It will be a force multiplier for small and medium enterprises tapping industries such as defence, aerospace and homeland security," said S Ravinarayanan, the chairman of Axis Aerospace & Technologies and head of industry lobby group Ficci's task force on defence offsets.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 707283.cms

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Feb 2012 05:53

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:What will the IAF fleet look like in 10 years time?

Mig29, Su30MKI, Mig21Bison, Mirage 2000, Mig 27, Jaguar, LCA, FGFA (?), AMCA (?) and Rafale.
Incorrect about the MiG-21. The last Bison will be phased out before the end of 2020. Saint Anthony has stated that the last MiG-21 will be phased out in 2017.

...

IN 10 years (or in the year 2025), the IAF's orbat will look like the following:

Retired:

~150 x MiG-21Bis/M/MF (7 squadrons)
~60 x MiG-27ML (3 squadrons)
~120 x MiG-21Bison (6 squadrons)
~40 x MiG-27UPG (2 squadrons)

Total (retired): 370 aircrafts (18 squadrons)

On the way out:

~50 x Mirage 2000UPG (3 squadrons)
~60 x MiG-29UPG (3 squadrons)
~100 x Jaguar UPG (5 squadrons)

Total (on last leg): 210 aircrafts (11 squadrons)

Core Strength:

~40 x LCA Mk.1 (2 squadrons)
~100 x LCA Mk.2 (5 squadrons)
~270 x Su-30MKI (15 squadrons)
~126 x MMRCA Rafale (7 squadrons)
~80 x MMRCA (4 squadrons)
~40 x PAK-FA/FGFA Mk.1 (2 squadrons)

Total (core): 656 aircrafts (35 squadrons)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2012 06:06

Cosmo_R, is a vowel missing in your abbreviation?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Feb 2012 06:08

Political storm in the making in the UK..

France swoops to rob UK of £13bn Indian jet contract despite Government promises aid package would secure deal

Britain is sending £280million to India for each of the next four years, even though the country has more billionaires than Britain and has its own space programme. The aid package is 15 times larger than the £18million France sent to India in 2009. Asked to justify Indian aid last year, Mr Mitchell said: ‘It’s a very important relationship. The focus is also about seeking to sell Typhoon.’ The decision is also a setback for David Cameron, who visited India in 2010 with six Cabinet ministers and around 60 businessmen to try to establish Britain as the ‘partner of choice’ for India.

Last night Tory MP Peter Bone questioned the purpose of sending British aid to India at a time when cuts are being made at home. ‘It just goes to show that it’s a myth that by Britain becoming an aid superpower and doling billions of pounds out to countries like this exerts any influence whatsoever on the decisions made by those governments when purchasing equipment. ‘We need to slash the international development money and invest the billions saved to help hard-pressed British families.’ The Unite union last night expressed fears that the loss of the deal could threaten 4,500 jobs at BAE Systems’ Samlesbury base in Lancashire, where key components of the Typhoon are made, and Warton Aerodrome near Preston, where the aircraft is assembled.

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 01 Feb 2012 06:09

Finally, they appear to have made a decision before combat aircraft became obsolete. Both the aircraft in final selection were technically quite superb. I guess, the difference lay in the maturity of the platform and inherent development risks involved in achieving feature parity, which probably raised the price of the Typhoon.

The Rafale looks like an incredible bird, and with a naval variant, it can be a multi-service platform. Oh, to be younger and fly this in a couple of years

Cheerio
aharam

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Feb 2012 06:17

"The first MMRCA built in HAL should roll out in 2017-18. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end," said a source. Both MoD and IAF are confident there are "enough safeguards'' built into the project, which includes "performance-based logistics'', to ensure India "gets the best machine, spares and product support".

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 706551.cms

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 01 Feb 2012 06:19

nitinr wrote:Seems there is a strategic shift to french wares from Indian side.
Scorpene (+3 might also be ordered to make a total of 9)
Snecma + Kaveri
Rafael
Nuke reactors
And I feel there is more to come. (consultancy for 4 LPD's (mistral) / maitri)
Now the Q is what are we gettign or might be getting under the table for helping french with all this. I mean this is kind of new India - USSR friendship in making. And we know how Russia helped us.
So what can we get / getting from French. Any ideas??

Access to Megajoule

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Feb 2012 06:26

Between the MMRCA, M2K Upgrade, Scorpene and Mica orders France has secured Rs 92,000 Crores worth business from India.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Feb 2012 06:34

good for them. Brits are arrogent when we exploded the bomb and french only showed some understanding. Look at the brits behave even today. Still think that they are our masters.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Feb 2012 06:36

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:What will the IAF fleet look like in 10 years time?

Mig29, Su30MKI, Mig21Bison, Mirage 2000, Mig 27, Jaguar, LCA, FGFA (?), AMCA (?) and Rafale.
Incorrect about the MiG-21. The last Bison will be phased out before the end of 2020. Saint Anthony has stated that the last MiG-21 will be phased out in 2017.

Do you agree that I am right about the other planes though? Going by the new acquisitions and upgrades, we are going to have Su30MKI, Mig29, Mirage2000, Mig27s, Jags, FGFA, AMCA and the Rafale. As bad as the situation 15 years ago.

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:What capabilities does the Rafale (or the EF, for that matter) bring to the table? Will it stop the subconventional war from Pakistan? Will it stop the subconventional war from the Chinese in the NE and via the Maobadis?
Will any other aircraft stop any of the events that you have stated? If the Pakis get an itch to attack, no matter what we have will deter them from meeting their promised 72s. You are not making any sense.

My argument is simple:
1. The aircraft will not deter subconventional war.
2. Its an overkill against the PAF, and an underkill against the PLAAF.

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:If the Chinese decide to do a salami slicing operation under cover of their S300/S400 SAMs and challenge air superiority with their J20 fighter, can the Rafale hold its own?
First you list what the J-20 is capable of doing (from a reputable source) and then we can have this discussion.

Capabilities are not known, but having seen the quality of Chinese engineers and expats first hand, I am in no doubt that they will have a credible 5th gen. fighter aircraft in J20.

Rakesh wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Further, can the Rafale do a better job than our MKIs or FGFAs? What about the cost of the expendables? Can you compare the cost of a MICA vs. an AMRAAM or an R77? How about capabilities?
The Rafale is not meant to replace the MKI, but rather complement it.

What can the Rafale do that the Su30MKI cant?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Feb 2012 06:45

Let me also ask, are French weapons going to be cost effective? They have a GPS guided JDAMski, and its quite possible we wont get the Storm Shadow due to MTCR..

So we have a really expensive weapons platform, with expensive ammunition rounds, that does not deter the proxy war threat on our country, does not get us a strategic alliance with a Super Power...

This, Gentlemen, is in my understanding, a waste of money.

Carry on with the Lungi dance, I am going to drown my sorrows in some single malt.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 01 Feb 2012 06:46

sudeepj:

J20 is a prototype. There is no data about its performance, its avionics, and very significantly its engines. The last aspect is important since that is one of the critical areas where the Chinese have not yet demonstrated their capability.

The PAK-FA/FGFA is also a similar class. So if and when the J20 becomes a threat, the IAF will also have the FGFA.

And having also worked with Chinese origin engineers, there is nothing special about them that the SDRE do not have.

================

BTW, your entire argument about whether it will deter war is bogus. Going by your logic, India should disband its forces, and just build nukes and nuke the hell out of anyone who challenges Indian borders.

The decision to go with the French has strategic components. It keeps the French technology out of China's hands. The French need partners to maintain their independent defense industry; and India aligning up with their industry is a good for India. India would like to have a third option apart from the US/Russian. India also wants access to technology. Do not be surprised if many of India's own efforts get specific technology input from the French. The French too need a partner to defray the costs of new systems, and India offers a market, the manpower, and the money to partner with them.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Feb 2012 06:57

>> And having also worked with Chinese origin engineers, there is nothing special about them that the SDRE do not have.

Very good. There is also nothing special about us SDREs that the Chinese techies dont have.

But when comparing the Chinese system with the Indian system (as opposed to a comparison between the Chinese and Indian engineers), I can confidently say, that they have been able to attract and maintain a larger fraction of their top notch talent in their home country, as compared to India. They have put in a long term program to replicate the success of DARPA and NSF in setting up an MIC, while we are still stuck with a 80s model UGC.

This seriousness of purpose makes me think, that they will succeed in some measure.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Feb 2012 07:04

VikramS wrote: BTW, your entire argument about whether it will deter war is bogus. Going by your logic, India should disband its forces, and just build nukes and nuke the hell out of anyone who challenges Indian borders.

No, thats just the absurd length you are trying to extrapolate my argument to. My argument simply is to spend money based on an analysis of threats and strategy. I am as Jingo as they come.

VikramS wrote:The decision to go with the French has strategic components. It keeps the French technology out of China's hands. The French need partners to maintain their independent defense industry; and India aligning up with their industry is a good for India. India would like to have a third option apart from the US/Russian. India also wants access to technology. Do not be surprised if many of India's own efforts get specific technology input from the French. The French too need a partner to defray the costs of new systems, and India offers a market, the manpower, and the money to partner with them.

Doesnt the EU have an embargo on weapon exports to Chinese? Also, will the Frenchies or any other pip squeak under the Chattra Chaya of America export offensive weapons to China when Obama is busy moving marines into Australia and declaring emphatically, that USA is a pacific power?

VikramS wrote:Do not be surprised if many of India's own efforts get specific technology input from the French.

humko maloom hai Jannat ki haqueeqat lekin,
dil ko behlane ko, Ghalib khayal achha hai.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 01 Feb 2012 07:10

sudeepj wrote:
Carry on with the Lungi dance, I am going to drown my sorrows in some single malt.

carry on sudeepj. you have my support.

may be french wine is better.

this is the time to rejoice. 2 equally good a/c and better one in the eyes of the user won.
I am happy as long as the IAF and others users (including knowledgeable jingoes) are happy.

Broadly speaking my understanding of the Indian defence forces is much much better than before , by simply following the discussion to some extent here and in other threads.
Thanks to all the brfites.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Feb 2012 07:11

* So what can the Rafale do, that an existing SU30MKI (or one with a suitable set of upgrades) cant?
[For every generation of aircraft that IAF has inducted, its quite clear what we get with each generation. Mig21 -> Mig 23, Mig27 and Jag -> Mig29 -> Mirag2000 -> Su30MKI

there is a clear capability difference, that even a child can comprehend. Loiter time, weapons, radars, max speed, ...

this is the first time I cant see a distinct difference between the latest aircraft being planned for purchase vs the last induction]

* We know that IAF compared the 5 aircraft competently on a set of requirements. How do these requirements blossom from our strategy and doctrine?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Feb 2012 07:51

Well, I have been averse to this competition for some time as well - I don't think it is a result of any great strategic plan - more the result of IAF being given little choice in the matter. Still, amongst all the birds available, there is little doubt that the Rafale was one of the lightest birds in the race, second only to the Gripen, which I am glad was not selected considering the danger it would have put the Tejas in.

Amongst all the twin engined birds in the world, I'd wager a guess that the Rafale has amongst the smallest fuel footprints. It has 2 engines to be sure, but their combined output is no more than the F-16blk60. It is closer to the "medium" category than any other MRCA contender, and would fit well in the IAF force.

Performance wise, it is clearly the best striker - with an amazing versatility in options provided. A2A too it was always amongst the top contenders.

And then there are many advantages besides - synergies with M2k, avionics + weapons thereby reducing supply chain costs. Possibilities of engine commonality once the Snecma-Kaveri gets into action. Hell, I'd be happy if the AMCA was a Rafale clone.

Without doubt it is the optimum choice under the circumstances. I think the IAF's preferences in both the Rafale AND Tiffy shows skeptics like moi that it still is a force that is professional and has not succumbed to the corrupting influences of a third rate political leadership and bureaucracy over a period of decades. Kudos to them for a thorough, efficient, and effective evaluation. Very heartening. JMT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 08:00

most of the british or any other foreign aid is actually a subsidy to their own agencies in the way US aid to Israel/Egypt is
- any aid in materials would be purchased from UK
- the fat goras to manage and administer this aid would be paid in pounds but live in posh area of delhi, with hardship allowance and koi hai staff
- services would again be sourced from UK agencies only.

in any case, for outbound investment and tourism from India, UK remains far ahead of france...so wtf are they complaining about? we did save their corus steel and JLR didnt we?

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 01 Feb 2012 08:24

saurav.jha wrote:
One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defense ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... A820120131

What is this supposed to mean ..?

It means F 35...as it was not included in the process.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 01 Feb 2012 08:28

Been reading the UK press reports and the comments. Lots of sour grapes. They've been commenting on all of the aid they give. They should consider it a very small partial reparations for the trillions of pounds stolen from India in the last 100 years and all of the millions they murdered with the 1941-44 famine in Bengal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2012 08:43

The minute the Brits wanted to be the lead for the EuroFighter, I thought it would lose as they ahve done a lot of bad faith business with India since 1947.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Feb 2012 09:03

Goodness Gracious Me!

[Edited image. Too graphic for offices]

My Favourite is Eurofighter but Rafale is good too.

All's Well That Ends Well.

Thank Goodness atleast the MMRCA did not end up like the "Artillery Procurement Saga" caught in a Version of the Ancient Indian Snakes and Ladders Game in which there are "No Ladders" but "Only Snakes", and if the Snakes bite you somewhere, the whole thing comes back to Zero.

Snakes and Ladders - Wikipedia

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Feb 2012 09:12

Dassault deal: 108 Rafale jets may be manufactured in India

:
:
Under the MMRCA project , the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition" from France from mid-2015 onwards . The remaining 108 fighters will later be manufactured in India over six years after a transfer of technology to HAL.
:
:

sumits · Post by **sumits** » 01 Feb 2012 09:21

Since 18 Rafale will be bought in fly-away condition and rest assembled/manufactured in India - so how are the revenues shared?
I mean when HAL manufactures these jets in India, will they share revenue with Dassault?

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 01 Feb 2012 09:23

Mort Walker wrote:Been reading the UK press reports and the comments. Lots of sour grapes. They've been commenting on all of the aid they give. They should consider it a very small partial reparations for the trillions of pounds stolen from India in the last 100 years and all of the millions they murdered with the 1941-44 famine in Bengal.

Ignore the British press. Those donkeys have the superiority complex issue, and they bash anything and anyone including the lack of winter snow at sea level during the 2010 winter Olympics. I can't wait to bash the 2012 Olympics. In all fairness I am happy the French finally won a battle since 1939.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Feb 2012 09:24

The sweetest is the cockpit..

but I hate that cobra-ish look of the refueler pod.

bad ergo as well there.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Feb 2012 09:29

sudeepj wrote:What can the Rafale do that the Su30MKI cant?

To begin with, what does LCA do that MKI cant? Money aside, do you have an answer for this? Does this imply we need only have more MKI in our fleet instead of more LCA(I or II)?

Technically, MKI in its current form does not have a AESA or the active passive stealth characteristics Rafa is touted for. It will give us exposure to the most recent Westrn Avionics.

IAF wanted a hi-Med-Low mix of AC. And by time we will be getting MMRCA inducted, we will be having the said mix with other medium fighters retired or on the way for retirement.

The political clout it will bring in is also pretty desirable.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 09:36

The poms are sore losers. They have an excuse for everything. Remember the "Delhi Belly" and the prawns reulted in their getting SDRE washed at cricket.

They have lost an empire so they should learn to shrug off this loss with dignity. After all, losing a few typhoon order is nothing to losing an empire.

The Tiffy is also a mean and good a/c. And personally I too, though a Raffy fan, would have been happy if they had won.

Their reaction portrays that they needed this order badly. But alas, did they strategise correctly to win it? Claiming it was theirs a month back?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 09:38

hopefully we can leverage a lot of technology and design concepts from rafale for AMCA mk1. a totally greenfield design would be wrong approach to follow.

there was a long paper posted here by a chinese guy explaining how the lack of latest rus/western light but powerful engines with china, led to them choosing the complex wing and fin layout of the J-20 and not the leaner and more minimal raptor/pakfa shapes. he claims later on they discovered the current j-20 layout does give some advantages in transonic performance...the explanation was very long but detailed.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Feb 2012 09:41

Can we rename the thread to sometiing little less jubilant. It seems this is going to be the MMRCA thread going forward.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 09:42

koti wrote:
sudeepj wrote:What can the Rafale do that the Su30MKI cant?
To begin with, what does LCA do that MKI cant? Money aside, do you have an answer for this? Does this imply we need only have more MKI in our fleet instead of more LCA(I or II)?

Technically, MKI in its current form does not have a AESA or the active passive stealth characteristics Rafa is touted for. It will give us exposure to the most recent Westrn Avionics.

IAF wanted a hi-Med-Low mix of AC. And by time we will be getting MMRCA inducted, we will be having the said mix with other medium fighters retired or on the way for retirement.
The political clout it will bring in is also pretty desirable.

++ Koti. This is the answer I got from a retired fighter pilot two years back. To my question as to why are we going through the pain of MMRCA selection, when we could have ordered another 126 MKI's with consumate ease. He also smiled and said "The IAF need a different class of beasts."

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 09:46

I hope there is ToT for active stealth. Imagine the AMCA with a stealth airframe and add active stealth to it.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 09:46

Khaali sthaan bharo to noobs

----- will beg france to give them rafa as they want to balance yeevil India