Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Indranil
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Indranil »

It is very evident that the "actual L1 vendor" penned this letter :D
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

The guy wants to follow his illustrious colleauge from the state MS Renuka Chowdhary and sink the aircraft deal.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kmkraoind »

Blame Antony for Gen’s outburst - DNA
The BJP leader said the decision to acquire aircraft — there was need for 226 and it was brought down to 124 — has not yet been implemented.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by koti »

ramana wrote:The guy wants to follow his illustrious colleauge from the state MS Renuka Chowdhary and sink the aircraft deal.
You got that wrong there.
Both are on the opposite sides of the political equation in AP.

I know the guy, very rational is his arguments and I always had a positive impression on him thus far.
I don't know what he is trying to achieve with this feat though.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

being rational on known aspects of arguments can become totally irrational if he does not know what he is talking about. first aspect of rational thinking, is trying to get the facts and get a basic understanding of issues. when writing such a letter, underlying basis to substantiate his complaints is very important to gain any public respect.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by rsingh »

There is an article in French magazine "Capital" about Rafale deal. Good article on capabilities of Rafale and Indian decision to buy the plane. Then author asks whether HAL has capabilities to manufacture the plane,citing the fact that HAL is yet to manufacture SU-30 MKI. Deal to manufacture SU-30 was signed in 2000. French are thinking that there are chances that all of the planes are going to be manufactured in France.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kartik »

rsingh wrote:There is an article in French magazine "Capital" about Rafale deal. Good article on capabilities of Rafale and Indian decision to buy the plane. Then author asks whether HAL has capabilities to manufacture the plane,citing the fact that HAL is yet to manufacture SU-30 MKI. Deal to manufacture SU-30 was signed in 2000. French are thinking that there are chances that all of the planes are going to be manufactured in France.
Please post the article..sounds like a whole lot of BS..HAL has had a couple of years in delays but nothing that should make them think that all 126 will be manufactured in France.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Indranil »

^^^ +1. It really sounds like a pacifying the masses how the Rafale deal is much bigger than what it looks.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sanjay »

A suggestion ? The probe is parallel to CNC discussions. Wait a while. It is also a very useful pressure tactic against the French.

Remember some members of the MoD panel also raised questions.

Clarity needs to be sought on the issues raised and it also puts the French in a position where they cannot drive a hard bargain.

Also remember the Su-30 deal went through one allegation after another but was implemented in the end.

This contract will be concluded on or before March 31 2013 - right now is the right time to deal with these issues.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

Jet deal hits air pocket
Antony orders probe into Rafale aircraft deal after charges of irregularities
Allegations of irregularities in the Indian Air Force's (IAF) deal for 126 fighter aircraft are likely to delay, not derail the $18 billion (Rs 90,000 crore) deal. Defence Minister A.K. Antony ordered a departmental probe into his ministry's January 31 decision to shortlist French firm Dassault to supply the aircraft. Antony's move came soon after doubts were raised about the evaluation process by an MP.

In January, India announced that Dassault had emerged as the lowest bidder for the contract to supply 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The Dassault Rafale multi-role combat jet edged out its closest competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon, to emerge the cheapest bidder in the world's largest open tender defence contract. On February 27, Telugu Desam Party's Rajya Sabha MP M.V. Mysura Reddy wrote to Antony alleging deviations in procedure. Officials involved in negotiations say the probe will delay the deal by only a "month or two". Ministry of Defence (MoD) expects the deal to be signed before March 31, 2013.

In February, MoD-appointed Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC), comprising the defence ministry's stakeholders, opened negotiations with Dassault. The final proposal will be put before the Cabinet Committee on Security early next year. "The formula for calculating the cheapest aircraft was re-totalled three times, by MoD and IAF," an official told India Today. The controversy arose because mod used 'life cycle costs' to select its finalist. As per this formula, the cheapest aircraft would not be the one with the lowest upfront cost. It would be the aircraft that worked out to be the cheapest over the aircraft's 30-year life cycle. The formula took into account variables like maintenance and engine replacement.

Sources say the Rafale aircraft was $5 million (Rs 250 crore) cheaper than the Typhoon. Losing finalists like the European Consortium found fault with the formula even as European diplomats made fresh proposals to lower the rates of the Typhoon. MoD, however, signalled that the door was shut as it began CNC with Dassault in February. Reddy's letter to Antony has, however, added a twist to the tale.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by JaiS »

Meanwhile,

Thales delivers first production RBE2 AESA radar to Dassault Aviation

Neuilly-sur-Seine – In February, Thales delivered the first series-produced RBE2 radar with active electronically scanned array (AESA) to the Dassault Aviation facility in Mérignac, France. The radar will now be installed on Rafale C137, the first Rafale with this new capability, which is scheduled for delivery to the French defence procurement agency (DGA) this summer. A comprehensive three-month flight test programme conducted with the first production RBE2 AESA radar at the Istres air base demonstrated the qualities of the radar and confirmed the expected levels of performance prior to delivery to Dassault Aviation.

The RBE2 AESA radar was delivered in line with the contract schedule, demonstrating the new radar’s technological maturity and further consolidating Thales’s European leadership in radars for combat aircraft.

The RBE2 AESA will give the Rafale a number of key advantages:
Extended range for full compatibility with the latest-generation long-range missiles, such as the Meteor, combined with the ability to detect low-observable targets
Higher reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no major maintenance is required on the active array for 10 years)
Waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery and increased resistance to jamming


The Rafale will be the only European combat aircraft under full-scale production with an active-array radar. The operational superiority of this omnirole combat aircraft, which was demonstrated most recently during Operation Harmattan in Libya, is now further assured for the full spectrum of French Air Force and Navy missions relying on the new technology.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SShah »

Why don't people get it - this is coming straight from the Brits who were vomiting all over when they found out about the Rafale's victory as L1. I had written and predicted in my last post that this was going to happen.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

You can't help it. But, everyone can get it. The issue must feedback into correction process rather blame on contending nations. Afterall, they are marketing, like any org. If we have loopholes, we should fix that. One never gets oppty in India to fix loopholes.. and these signs are important corrections. CAG should play a role earlier in the selection process.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by chackojoseph »

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

is Thales providing anything for the Captor-E radar or its entirely owned by Marconi (UK) + SelexGalileo (Italy) ? is raytheon or northrop-grumann in anyway involved in the Captor-E?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Luxtor »

When a person begins a letter to a high ranking gov't minister with the word "scam" in the very first sentence and continues to say that word through out the letter then you know he's not an impartial party. Where does he get the notion that the Rafale failed precision bombing in Libya? Does he think that Typhoon which was not originally designed for ground attack role could do a better job than Rafale that was right from the beginning designed for ground attack as well as air superiority role? By design, it could perform both of those tasks simultaneously. Instead of entertaining this guy, the MOD should ask him to provide any proofs to substantiate his bizarre claims. Considering that almost all quarters, including the Typhoon consortium, commended the MOD for conducting such a clean, fair, transparent MMRCA competition and evaluation, these substantiations by this man should be dismissed. He is the one who should be investigated to see what his connection is to any party that might be interested in messing around with this desperately needed boost to India's national defense.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sumeet »

Singha wrote:is Thales providing anything for the Captor-E radar or its entirely owned by Marconi (UK) + SelexGalileo (Italy) ? is raytheon or northrop-grumann in anyway involved in the Captor-E?

Singha, UMS aka United Monolithic Semiconductors which is 50% Thales and 50% EADS is in business of supplying TR modules for for both CAESAR (at least for the prototype Captor AESA) and RBE-2 AESA. This is my understanding at least based on my reading. .

Read here:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... tr-modules

For production version of Captor AESA, I don't know who will be supplying. Even Selex Galileo website on the TR module section just say its gonna be European source. Nothing is specified as to whether it will be them or UMS (Thales and EADS)

http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/f ... 150710.pdf
Other than that everything in CAESAR is from Marconi and SelexGalileo.

For production version of RBE-2 AESA, TR modules will be completely from UMS.

Goal of UMS is to be single source of supply for TR modules worldwide free of ITAR
http://www.ums-gaas.com/company-profile.php
Missions of United Monolithic Semiconductors

- To offer independent state-of-the-art "ITAR free" MMICs and foundry services to the world-wide market

- To be a global provider of MMICs solutions for Communication, Radar, Electronic Warfare and RF Systems
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!seen in

Post by saptarishi »

DEFEXPO 2012 MMRCA UPDATE

mmrca buzz was less compared to last time.not even a single show daily like sps guide pub, sap media,mri etc carried a report dedicated to mmrca .just small sections were dedicated to mention that first rafale will be in service by 2016.

eurofighter pavillion: by far the biggest. cassidian and the consortium still have high hopes.its good to be optimistic. apart from a model of armed eurofighter and a poster of eurojet the stand also featured the newest WFoR CAPTOR-E radar. i counted the number of t/r modules .it was around 920 approx much lesser than 1423 as earlier thought and in the same number category as RBE-2AA WHICH HAS 850-869 MODULES.
saab pavillion: small model of gripen. saab people were handing over the year old GRIPEN IN FOR INDIA PAMPHLETS which were seen in aero india 2011 and in saab website in pdf form earlier.
thales pavillion had a model of rafale. thales demonstrated avionics systems like night vision goggles,damocles ldp etc.
MBDA PAVILLION HAD MOCK UPS OF storm shadow ,brimstone,asraam,meteor, am-39 block 2 {all offered for mmrca} in 1/2 scale.
full scale mock up of mica ir/em was also there. diehl pavillion had a full scale mock up of iris-t.
raytheon pavillion had mock ups of harpoon, paveway and slam-er. russia's UNITED ENGINE'S CORPORATION HAD A MOCK UP of rd-33mk engine for mig-35
overall MMRCA BUZZ CREATED in DEFEXPO 2010 was missing.this defexpo clearly belonged to small arms and howitzers
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

Air International April 2012

Year of Rafale ?

http://www.mediafire.com/?9hambw3boqer1un
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Luxtor wrote:Does he think that Typhoon which was not originally designed for ground attack role could do a better job than Rafale that was right from the beginning designed for ground attack as well as air superiority role? By design, it could perform both of those tasks simultaneously.


While I don't agree with the Hon'ble MP's opinion in the least, I have to point out the so called 'original role' is a flawed argument. The Mirage 2000 for example was designed to operate primarily as an interceptor, yet until the Su-30MKI's induction was the IAF's most capable strike aircraft. The F-15 Eagle, the original air superiority fighter, when configured for a swing role (F-15E) beat out the Rafale and Eurofighter, in Singapore and South Korea, and is also set to replace the Tornado in the RSAF. Similarly, the F-22 will be the best strike aircraft in the world, if and when it gets qualified with the Sniper pod.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!seen in

Post by Viv S »

saptarishi wrote:eurofighter pavillion: by far the biggest. cassidian and the consortium still have high hopes.its good to be optimistic. apart from a model of armed eurofighter and a poster of eurojet the stand also featured the newest WFoR CAPTOR-E radar. i counted the number of t/r modules .it was around 920 approx much lesser than 1423 as earlier thought and in the same number category as RBE-2AA WHICH HAS 850-869 MODULES.
:-? AFAIK only a model was on display to showcase the swashplate arrangement. It doesn't have any working T/R modules embedded. What you saw were white LED lights. A populated Captor E antenna will sit in a radome with about 60% greater area than the RBE-2AA, so about 1400 modules is a fairly reasonable assessment, given that they'll use similar modules (sourced from UMS).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

IIRC, our problems with Tejas MMR is mainly with radar processor and multi-mode computing [using Elta ones now] more than the t/r panels. LRDE is ahead in the game of t/r modules, and possibly likely to outsource them for RBE2-AESA with a little tech spec and production engineering setup knowledge transfer.

I think this is good sign.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kuldipchager »

del.
Last edited by Rahul M on 04 Apr 2012 07:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: learn to quote posts. you have been here long enough.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by keshavchandra »

There is an evaluation committee which is involved in these matters. The committee comprises six persons and there are persons from the armed forces and also the finance wing. My information suggests that two persons in this committee have allegedly manipulated this deal,’ MV Mysura Reddy, member of the parliamentary defence standing committee, tells Vicky Nanjappa
Earlier at the time of Bofors Procurement one of our minister(I think environment Minister) raised some allegation on the quality of the guns, even this minister suggested another company as comparative better quality. Now this reddy is trying to do the same thing with MMRCA deal. :evil:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20453 »

Being ITAR free has little impact, the fact is UMS has a major design center in the US and so does Thales. Critical tech related to both SPECTRA and other EU made electronics have all been developed in the US. They only are manufactured in the EU in order to make them ITAR free, the knowledge itself comes from US. ITAR is easy to avoid.

A lot of the technology for Thales and other EADS has roots in the US, manufacturing is shifted elsewhere to avoid ITAR. Besides Dassault has already obtained clearances from Unkil in order to provide TOT on the Rafale.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Being ITAR free has little impact, the fact is UMS has a major design center in the US and so does Thales. Critical tech related to both SPECTRA and other EU made electronics have all been developed in the US. They only are manufactured in the EU in order to make them ITAR free, the knowledge itself comes from US. ITAR is easy to avoid.

A lot of the technology for Thales and other EADS has roots in the US, manufacturing is shifted elsewhere to avoid ITAR. Besides Dassault has already obtained clearances from Unkil in order to provide TOT on the Rafale.
Not true at all. Spectra is entirely developped at Elancourt close to Paris/Versailles and build Elancourt and Pessac near Bordeaux.
Having my entries at Thales and Dassault I can confirm that the US have zero input in spectra and the RBE2 be it development or manufacturing.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Will »

keshavchandra wrote:
There is an evaluation committee which is involved in these matters. The committee comprises six persons and there are persons from the armed forces and also the finance wing. My information suggests that two persons in this committee have allegedly manipulated this deal,’ MV Mysura Reddy, member of the parliamentary defence standing committee, tells Vicky Nanjappa
Earlier at the time of Bofors Procurement one of our minister(I think environment Minister) raised some allegation on the quality of the guns, even this minister suggested another company as comparative better quality. Now this reddy is trying to do the same thing with MMRCA deal. :evil:
Lifafa Lifafa Lifafa
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sumeet »

Septimus P. wrote:Being ITAR free has little impact, the fact is UMS has a major design center in the US and so does Thales. Critical tech related to both SPECTRA and other EU made electronics have all been developed in the US. They only are manufactured in the EU in order to make them ITAR free, the knowledge itself comes from US. ITAR is easy to avoid.

A lot of the technology for Thales and other EADS has roots in the US, manufacturing is shifted elsewhere to avoid ITAR. Besides Dassault has already obtained clearances from Unkil in order to provide TOT on the Rafale.
This is what Thales does in US:

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Countries/Un ... _the_U_S_/

Neither critical EW nor Radar development work happens in US. The only non american company that has significant pie in that business area in US is BAE System. As Arthuro mentioned SPECTRA and RBE-2 AESA are mostly French sourced if not entirely so.

UMS does not have any R&D unit in US. Its R&D and production facilities are based out of Germany and France.
http://www.ums-gaas.com/company-profile.php
United Monolithic Semiconductors was created in 1996, as a joint venture of Thales and EADS, to provide a European source of III-V technologies and products.

The Company has industrial facilities in Ulm, Germany and Villebon / Yvette, France (headquarters), and sales offices in Lowel, MA USA and Shanghaï, China.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20453 »

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

ahah a joke, significant input into Thales comes from Thales Raytheon where Raytheon has pumped in a huge amounts of techno input. UMS has design facilities in the US.

Spectra was developed entirely in Thales US.

Thales and Dassault particularly are known for bundling US tech and claim it to be "ITAR free".

For both Brazil and India retransfer licences have been already issued in order to have a clear export, to claim Rafale is ITAR free is pure marketing BS.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sumeet »

Septimus P. wrote:http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

ahah a joke, significant input into Thales comes from Thales Raytheon where Raytheon has pumped in a huge amounts of techno input.
Thales Raytheon System is a equal JV between Thales and Raytheon in the sense that workforce is equally divided.

http://www.thalesraytheon.com/en/about- ... mpany.html
As a forward-thinking, dynamic company, TRS offers numerous career opportunities in the United States, France and internationally. Eighty percent of the company's employees are top-level engineers who benefit from decades of experience. Our employee base of 1,600 is equally split between France and the USA.
Oh really so there is nothing from Thales here, its predominantly Raytheon? Or you mean Thales is student and Raytheon giver/teacher? Either way can you explicitly state your reasons with evidence?


UMS has design facilities in the US.
Evidence ?
Spectra was developed entirely in Thales US.
Evidence ? As far as I have read its developed by Thales and MBDA

Thales and Dassault particularly are known for bundling US tech and claim it to be "ITAR free".
Evidence ?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by keshavchandra »

There is an evaluation committee which is involved in these matters. The committee comprises six persons and there are persons from the armed forces and also the finance wing. My information suggests that two persons in this committee have allegedly manipulated this deal,’ MV Mysura Reddy, member of the parliamentary defence standing committee, tells Vicky Nanjappa
Earlier at the time of Bofors Procurement one of our minister(I think environment Minister) raised some allegation on the quality of the guns, even this minister suggested another company as comparative better quality. Now this reddy is trying to do the same thing with MMRCA deal. :evil:
Lifafa Lifafa Lifafa
Kindly do some research first before putting a comment next time. The details on my above comment already have posted and discussed before on other thread and a link was posted by Roperia on NDTV discussion program.
Link
While the above statements of reddy procurement issue on MMRCA are from rediff news. Hope this will be a suffice explanation.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Danell »

arthuro wrote:
Being ITAR free has little impact, the fact is UMS has a major design center in the US and so does Thales. Critical tech related to both SPECTRA and other EU made electronics have all been developed in the US. They only are manufactured in the EU in order to make them ITAR free, the knowledge itself comes from US. ITAR is easy to avoid.

A lot of the technology for Thales and other EADS has roots in the US, manufacturing is shifted elsewhere to avoid ITAR. Besides Dassault has already obtained clearances from Unkil in order to provide TOT on the Rafale.
Not true at all. Spectra is entirely developped at Elancourt close to Paris/Versailles and build Elancourt and Pessac near Bordeaux.
Having my entries at Thales and Dassault I can confirm that the US have zero input in spectra and the RBE2 be it development or manufacturing.
You're right Arthuro. It's the same divisions that are working on Spectra since the beginning , only their names have changed. In fact , at Elancourt, the initial Spectra main designer was Dassault Electronique , D.E. was helped by Thomson-CSF and Matra.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... ?tracked=1
Dassault electronique merged with Thomson CSF in 1998 and they become Thales in 2000. On its side Matra (Matra haute technologies) merged with Aerospatiale in 1999 , and the part of Aerospatiale still in charge of Spectra (among others) is now in MBDA since 2001 (the most important Aerospatiale part going to EADS).
http://www.mbda-systems.com/products/ai ... pectra/17/
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

guys instead of just posting links (not all have rights or registered users of sites that needs registeration), could you please just post the one liners from the link to discuss contentious issues. /jmt [hopefully the one liner is not plagiarism since you are supporting the link]

that could also stand as evidences as people ask for it. that way, we have more discussion points or people who come to visit this thread has something to read rather arguments.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Jaybhatt »

Sumeet wrote:
Septimus P. wrote:http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

ahah a joke, significant input into Thales comes from Thales Raytheon where Raytheon has pumped in a huge amounts of techno input.
Thales Raytheon System is a equal JV between Thales and Raytheon in the sense that workforce is equally divided.

http://www.thalesraytheon.com/en/about- ... mpany.html
As a forward-thinking, dynamic company, TRS offers numerous career opportunities in the United States, France and internationally. Eighty percent of the company's employees are top-level engineers who benefit from decades of experience. Our employee base of 1,600 is equally split between France and the USA.
Oh really so there is nothing from Thales here, its predominantly Raytheon? Or you mean Thales is student and Raytheon giver/teacher? Either way can you explicitly state your reasons with evidence?


UMS has design facilities in the US.
Evidence ?
Spectra was developed entirely in Thales US.
Evidence ? As far as I have read its developed by Thales and MBDA

Thales and Dassault particularly are known for bundling US tech and claim it to be "ITAR free".
Evidence ?
Ah, so we now have Septimus P back in the fray, after serving out his ban, but basically singing the same old song. Or the same old refrain.

Now that his favourite pony, the EF, is out of the fray, Shri Septimus P is going after the Rafale in every which way, as the people from the other side of the Atlantic would say.

He is now plugging the line that the Rafale has such a high level of U.S. components that it would need Uncle Sam's clearance under the ITAR regime.

Really, how desperate can one get ? Clutching at straws does not quite describe what he is trying to do.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Will »

Ah, so we now have Septimus P back in the fray, after serving out his ban, but basically singing the same old song. Or the same old refrain.

Now that his favourite pony, the EF, is out of the fray, Shri Septimus P is going after the Rafale in every which way, as the people from the other side of the Atlantic would say.

He is now plugging the line that the Rafale has such a high level of U.S. components that it would need Uncle Sam's clearance under the ITAR regime.

Really, how desperate can one get ? Clutching at straws does not quite describe what he is trying to do.
I wouldnt be surprised if Shri Septimus is one of our well payed journalists in disguise endorsing US systems
:mrgreen:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20453 »

Never said a very high level of content buddy, not desperate at all, i only try to counter the pure bs that raffy is this golden bird purely independent which is pure hogwash. Except for the mig-35, every other bird in the competition has US made parts including critical components. Ef and Gripen NG have higher % while though Rafale has a smaller percentage, it still has a fair amount.

Even with the Rafale we will have to end up depending on the US for help and permission to counter china, even with the Agni-5 we still unkil's nod to fight a respectable war either with PAk or china or both. Good luck going to war with china without unkil's full backing.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20453 »

http://www.ums-gaas.com/shareholders.php

UMS does have a design centre in the US and the customer support as well.
member_20067
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20067 »

just a cool image
Really Large Image
Last edited by Suraj on 12 Apr 2012 03:13, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please don't post such large pics inline
MN Kumar
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by MN Kumar »

Prithwiraj wrote:just a cool image
Really Large Image
That looks like hardcore criminal tied in chains.
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