Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

member_28131 · Post by **member_28131** » 10 Dec 2013 01:03

I never understood this argument of hiring foreign scientists. What advantage does that serve us? They are legally bound not to spill secrets so it is not like we will be gaining anything. As far as R&D goes, our scientists are more than capable of doing it. What we lack are orders.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 10 Dec 2013 18:57

Reliance, Dassault may join hands to make wings for Rafale fighter jets - Firstpost

The two firms are planning to set up a Rs 1,000-crore facility for producing the wings of the Rafale combat aircraft and it is most likely to come up in Bangalore, industry sources told PTI in New Delhi. Wings for the fighter. Wings for the fighter.

Under the plan, Dassault Aviation would help Reliance to establish the factory similar to its production facilities in France where the aircraft is produced, they said.

The defence ministry and other agencies concerned have given a go ahead to the two companies for creating the unit, they said.

Dassault wanted Reliance to be the main partner in production of the aircraft in India but the government made it clear that it was not possible as the tender for the procurement clearly stated that aerospace PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be the lead integrator for the project.

The differences over the issue have been resolved and Dassault and HAL have started readying their teams for implementing the project after it is signed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Dec 2013 09:47

Rafale deal negotiations are on-going with the new Joint Secretary having taken up due to the death of the previous JS.

Defense Aerospace article

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Dec 2013 13:06

Negotiations on with Dassault for fighters jets: IAF chief
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/negot ... f/1206811/

The Indian Air Force is negotiating with French aviation major Dassault Aviation's Rafale for 126 medium fighter jets in a multi-billion dollar deal, Chief of Air Staff of IAF, Air Chief Marshall N A K Browne said on Thursday.

The deal suffered a "setback" due to the death of an official, who handled the negotiation, in September. Now a new Joint Secretary has joined last week to take the negotiations forward, Browne told reporters in Shillong.

"They have had meetings as of this time and I am hopeful that by early next year we should be able to wrap this case for the Air Force," Browne said after rounding up his two-day farewell visit to the headquarter of the Eastern Air Command where he also chaired a Commanders' conference.

Browne said the 'Rafale' are expected to be inducted into the force by 2017, three years approximately after the contract is signed.

srin · Post by **srin** » 13 Dec 2013 13:59

Given the lack of spine of the current dispensation, the deal will be left to the new govt to be signed. I find this more probable. Even the Air force chief is saying "hopeful" instead of saying "certain".

By that time, the cost likely would have gone up. And if we're in financial trouble at that time and LCA works well, the Govt would probably order more sukhois and LCAs and scrap the deal.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Dec 2013 18:30

He is easing out. It is the difference when on seat, going out of seat and then out of seat. We can now look to next Chief for newer versions of the statements.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 14 Dec 2013 00:21

The deal suffered a "setback" due to the death of an official, who handled the negotiation

Unbelievable and I mean that literally. There is no way in hell we could be stupid enough to leave something like this dependent on the well-being of a single person with no backups at all.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2013 02:14

From Claude Arpi:

Chinese military may not be ready for war
Thursday, 19 December 2013 | Claude Arpi | in Edit
12345 0 News reports in the local media have criticised the People’s Liberation Army for its low level of defence preparedness and revealed Beijing’s ongoing efforts to restructure the forces

China has once again provoked India by arresting three local porters in the Chumar sector of South Ladakh. But despite these constant acts of bravado, is China prepared for a conflict? The answer is that the Middle Kingdom is far from being ready.

“China’s People’s Liberation Army is striving to maintain its glorious wartime reputation by advancing military reform and putting paid to the ethos of decadence”, said an editorial of The PLA Daily, the day after the Third Plenum of the 18th Communist Party of China Central Committee ended. Beijing was rather frank: “The people have noticed that certain Army cadres have only a vague understanding of their mission after a long break from combat, and have become lazy in their primary tasks,” asserted The PLA Daily in its editorial.

The Army publication criticises officers who lack the ‘awareness of always being ready to fight’; it even admits that some soldiers “have not been trained hard enough and the quality of military training is not good enough. They are just not up for the fight.” The newspaper reminds its readers that “the primary task and ultimate duty of military leaders should be to lead soldiers in battles.” The fact that this needs to be said probably means that something is rotting in the Middle Kingdom.

As analysts started talking about reforms, The Global Times published a short communique: “The Ministry of National Defence denies rumors of military restructuring.” The Global Times, however, details these famous ‘rumours’; one is “a ground force headquarters will be added to the current Air Force, Navy and the second artillery force (missile force).” A separate ground forces (Army) headquarters makes sense. Traditionally, the other three services come under the PLA.

General Xu Qiliang, one of the two vice chairmen of the Central Military Commission had earlier told The People’s Daily: “The Chinese military will strengthen and enhance the Navy, Air Force and the second artillery force in accordance with the challenges and threats the country is facing.” It clearly means that the prominent role of the ground forces needs to be rebalanced with the other three services. Mr Yang Yujun, the MND spokesman had also spoken of “blazing a trail in reform on joint operation command system …with Chinese characteristics.” He had given some examples to enhance the PLA’s ability of winning battles: “The ratio of officers to soldiers and that of troop units to organs are not reasonable in the PLA; …the scale and structure of the Chinese military should be further optimised and the proportion of combat forces should be raised.”

The fact that Beijing now calls ‘rumours’, some proposed changes is strange; it probably means that President Xi Jinping’s reforms are not unanimously appreciated in the PLA.

Another rumour quoted is more interesting for India: “The military areas in Xinjiang Uyghur and Tibet Autonomous Region will be merged into one force.” In case of a conflict with India, it seems logical for the PLA to have a single Military Area Command facing India, instead of having to coordinate the Western Front (Lanzhou MAC) with the Eastern Front (Chengdu MAC), with all the complications and coordination issues implied.

Another rumour is that the PLA’s garrison in Hong Kong would be withdrawn, and naval and air forces would be administered by other military bases. It would be a step further towards the integration of the former British colony in the mainland. This is also denied.

One often criticises New Delhi for the Indian defence forces’ lack of preparedness, but the Chinese too have their own problems. The PLA Daily published a report highlighting the urgent need for standardisation in the Chinese armed forces. It admitted that the lack of coordinated standardisation among the Army, Navy, and Air Forces could become the Achilles heel of China’s defence system.

The report gives concrete examples: “A brigade in the Second Artillery responded to an emergency with more than 300 vehicles and equipment, but there were as many as 90 different brands and models. The communications battalion alone had 12 different models of generators. The brigade commander complained that if there were a war, they would need to have several truckloads of spare parts.”

The newly-found Chinese transparency is interesting, though the ‘reforms’ announced after the Third Plenum of the Central Committee may take more time to come.

A week ago, Huanqiu, the Chinese edition of The Global Times, wrote about the internal and external security threats facing China. Of course for Beijing, the ‘external security threats’ are mainly due to what China calls the United States ‘return’ to Asia. The article quotes the unrest in the Arab countries as an example of what could happen in the Middle Kingdom. It ended with a warning to “outside hostile forces” that China has the world’s most powerful conventional ballistic missile, the top killer weapon, “to attack the most stubborn provocateur”. It probably refers to the newly inducted Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles which could be used, when fully functional, against US aircraft-carriers. The problem is that the “stubborn provocateur” is usually China, whether in Depsang Plain, in Chumar or in the East China Sea!

Even ‘unprepared’ China is still far in advance on India as far defence preparedness is concerned, but some good news recently came in (though it remains to be confirmed). While everyone thought that the Ministry of Defence had gone into hibernation before the 2014 general election, it may not be true. Press Trust of India affirms that: “France’s Dassault Aviation and Reliance Industries are planning to set up a facility to produce wings of Rafale combat aircraft selected by IAF for meeting its requirement of 126 fighter planes Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The two firms are planning to set up a Rs 1,000-crore facility for producing the wings of the Rafale combat aircraft and it is most likely to come up in Bangalore.” If this is confirmed, it will be great news for India.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would, however, remain the lead integrator for the MMRCAs: “The differences over the issue have been resolved and Dassault and HAL have started readying their teams for implementing the project after it is signed,” a source told PTI.

It may not be the ‘top killer weapon’, but in case China is tempted by another 1962-like adventure (from a single MAC or two), it can be a serious deterrent. And thankfully, the ‘flying coffins’ (MIG 21) have been towed to the IAF’s garages.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 19 Dec 2013 04:39

Brazil selects Gripen...!!

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... l-21266457

Brazil's government said Wednesday that Sweden's Saab won a long-delayed fighter jet contract initially worth $4.5 billion that will supply at least 36 planes to Latin America's biggest nation.

The decision to buy the Saab jet over Boeing's F-18 Super Hornet or France's Dassault Rafale came as a surprise to many. Some analysts said Boeing's bid was hurt by reports that the U.S. conducted extensive spying in Brazil, including a direct targeting of President Dilma Rousseff's own communications.

Brazil wants the jets to ramp up its defense capabilities to patrol a porous land border that's more than 9,300 miles (15,000 kilometers) long, much of it covered by jungle, over which arms and drugs easily flow. Brazil also seeks better protection for offshore oil fields it has discovered in recent years.

Defense Minister Celso Amorim said the choice after some 15 years of debate was made following "careful study and consideration, taking into account performance, transfer of technology and cost, not just of acquisition but of maintenance."

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt went on Twitter to call the decision "a tribute to Swedish technology and competitiveness."

Many had expected the choice to be between the Boeing and French planes. Former Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva had favored the Dassault Rafale, while Rousseff was said to favor the F-18.

Revelations six months ago that the U.S. National Security Agency's mammoth espionage program included widespread spying on Brazil was likely a factor in Saab being chosen, some analysts said. Brazilian anger over the spying led Rousseff to cancel a planned state visit to Washington in October.

"Dilma had been favoring the Boeing plane and a lot of people thought she would announce her decision during her state visit to Washington," said David Fleischer, a political scientist at the University of Brasilia. "Boeing was very close, but then the NSA booted them out of the air."

Carl Meacham, director of the Americas program at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the NSA stories made it politically impossible for Rousseff to go with Boeing and the decision will be another blow to U.S-Brazilian relations that already "are at a significant low."

Alexandre Barros, a political risk consultant with the Brasilia-based firm Early Warning, disagreed the NSA was a big factor. The Swedish jet was favored by Brazil's air force, according to an internal assessment leaked to the newspaper Folha de S.Paulo in 2010, and Barros said it was always going to win the competition.

He said many in the government long opposed Boeing because the company's bid was less flexible in terms of technology transfers than the two European plane makers and also because they were wary of becoming indebted to Washington.

"The Americans tend to think that if you buy arms from them you are automatically their allies," Barros said. "Brazil doesn't want that kind of link."

He said that as South America's main power, Brazil doesn't want to be in the position of being perceived as having to support American policies on the continent. Part of the draw of Saab's bid was that Sweden doesn't have any political clout in the region.

Brazil's military hopes the purchase decision after years of debate will lead to advances in its defense capabilities.

The country had the largest defense industry in the developing world in the mid-1980s. It was the world's eighth-largest arms exporter with strong demand for its armored personnel carriers, reconnaissance and anti-aircraft vehicles, troop carriers and rocket launchers.

However, the industry went into a tailspin when the Cold War ended and demand for weapons declined. In 1990, Brazil's two largest arms manufacturers, Engesa and Avibras, sought protection from creditors for debts of about $200 million.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2013 07:06

No. the gripen clearly failed in some of our required tests...no way its going to crawl back unless cost becomes a huge issue. IAF might be willing to live with lesser units but not capability given the J20/J35/Flanker/J10 fleet being worked on.

its either Rafale or failing that EF which both passed the tests. I doubt either would be different cost wise or capability wise. both will cost a bomb to buy but offer good lifecycle costs due to "western" time limits & fuel efficiency on engines and airframes being higher.

however we desperately need to induct Tejas in 200 nos and get rid of the Mig27 , older Jags and Bisons which together must be around 250 airworthy frames at this point. Tejas production must be ramped up to atleast 25 a year to meet this target. that means Tejas assembly has to expand to 5 times the cottage industry size it is now. a couple billion $$ is needed for land, infra, machine tools and for ramping up the supplier chain...these are long lead things...just throwing money doesnt guarantee overnight surges....its a 2-3 yr process on war footing to reach that level. production planning etc they should look to engage M&M/Telco/Maruti type people as consultants being desi cos there should be no issue in getting help from our internal gurus.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Dec 2013 07:41

pandyan wrote:slow day...somebody is going to ask this annoying question. so, iam going to ask anyway.

"is this going to change India's decision in any way?"

Not directly. It wouldn't change the Gripen's prospects in India. However losses in Brazil and probably in UAE too, will impact Dassault/Rafale's production expectations and thus cost projections vis a vis the Indian order.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2013 07:46

Then what to talk about the decisions made by the GoFr?

GoI may just bail out another company!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Dec 2013 08:20

Singha wrote:No. the gripen clearly failed in some of our required tests...no way its going to crawl back unless cost becomes a huge issue. IAF might be willing to live with lesser units but not capability given the J20/J35/Flanker/J10 fleet being worked on.

its either Rafale or failing that EF which both passed the tests. I doubt either would be different cost wise or capability wise. both will cost a bomb to buy but offer good lifecycle costs due to "western" time limits & fuel efficiency on engines and airframes being higher.

however we desperately need to induct Tejas in 200 nos and get rid of the Mig27 , older Jags and Bisons which together must be around 250 airworthy frames at this point. Tejas production must be ramped up to atleast 25 a year to meet this target. that means Tejas assembly has to expand to 5 times the cottage industry size it is now. a couple billion $$ is needed for land, infra, machine tools and for ramping up the supplier chain...these are long lead things...just throwing money doesnt guarantee overnight surges....its a 2-3 yr process on war footing to reach that level. production planning etc they should look to engage M&M/Telco/Maruti type people as consultants being desi cos there should be no issue in getting help from our internal gurus.

post of the year.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Dec 2013 09:41

In a what if scenario, they move the current Dassault production line to India (and not replicate) just like how HAL manufactures Dorniers, how does the cost of Rafale compare to the Gripen? Mittal had a bad experience but in the long run they have to make sales, and after Brazil they might do introspection?

Will · Post by **Will** » 19 Dec 2013 14:20

Are we still hoping for this deal to be signed?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Dec 2013 05:43

The Brazilian decision has two aspects to it.The first,a finger up O'Bomber's a*se as a reward from Dilly to O'Bomber for being silly with his sniffin' up her backside,metaphorically speaking.The second is that the Rafale comes with a very heavy price tag.Well over a year ago,there was a lot of stuff floating around about the Brazilan air force generals preferring the Gripen to the Raffy,despite the French helping Brazil with its N-sub ambitions.That deal deluded the French into thinking that the Raffy would fly away with the boodle with ease.But costs do matter and being the cheapest of the three,the Gripen flew away with the prize leaving the other two contenders,pardon the pun," Gripin' "!

Lessons for India? If cost be the deciding factor in an electoral year of stale chappatis and cold dal,food subsidies notwithstanding,then
cordon bleu fare from Dassault's kitchen for IAF messes is going to be a dream too far.Unless that is the offer comes with much "free food" for a starving family and its friends.If Dassault displays such a charitable disposition and offers the dish at a discount,the IAF may still get lucky.Though the advent of the LCA is a relief to the nation,it has been clearly stated that it will be a replacement for the hundred of MIG-21s to be phased out.So if the Raffy ends up like toffee,where will the dish of the day come from?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Dec 2013 06:22

The NSA phone tapping tilted to grippens favour. F-18 was the real choice.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Dec 2013 07:33

I'm all for mass production of the LCA,but it still hasn't matured into the bird that will meet the IAF's requirements,which we are told will only arrive with MK-2,which has yet to fly and who knows when it will enter production.Anyway,at least MK-1 can start replacing the older MIG-21s with a hopefully ramped up production rate.This is where the GOI/MOD must now after the IOC-2 event put hard money into establishing large scale production infrastructure at HAL .Otherwise,with a low prod. rate,by the next decade the aircraft will be inferior to newer birds which are being developed worldwide.

Therefore,what do we do in the interim? The LCA will not be available in enough numbers to replace all our MIG-27s,Bisons,etc.,and in any case the Jags are to be upgraded by Raytheon. That news was announced a long time,one air show ago,but progress seems to be zero. The M-2000 and MIG-29 upgrades are supposed to extend their lifespan by at least 20years.Twin-seat large expensive MKIs add to the capital,establishment and operational costs.There was a conf. in Oct. on "Affordable Air Power" in Delhi,with debates on the optimum force mix ,rationalisation of weapon systems & fleet,cost effective solutions,etc.One extreme example was given how the US is replacing the $13m A-10 heavily armoured with the $100m delicate JSF for close support! The debate reg. two-seat fighters vs single-seat ones is ever present.As mentioned several times before,we will still have a shortfall of between 120-200 aircraft even with the induction of the LCA and the MMRCA to meet the IAF's planned sqd. strength.How are we going to bridge the widening gap?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Dec 2013 12:26

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Dec 2013 15:33

Did Brazil order the Gripen or Gripen NG?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Dec 2013 15:41

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Dec 2013 15:59

Ok thanks, confused by calling it Gripen E, I guess it is scheduled to first enter swedish services in 2018, as on date largely a paper plane and way too similair to LCA MK II.

I guess risks are hedged as Sweden is modifying Gripen C to E, we should watch as they are going to make modifications for fitting GE 414 where GE 404's used to be.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Dec 2013 16:13

The are already flying a demonstration model of Gripen-NG ( Gripen-E ) with 414 Engine and a lot of the capabilities has been demonstrated via it , so its not a big risk and the ususal risk is certainly not something that experience of SAAB cant overcome.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 Dec 2013 19:14

Looks like Yaswant Sinha of BJP has raised a stink over Rafale deal.
1. The way calculations have been done to make it L1 has been questioned by several experts and two senior MOD officials
2. Offset clause and domestic component is being violated.
3. Money could have exchanged hands.

Govt might develop cold feet. Things were in advanced stage of finalisation.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 24 Dec 2013 20:13

GoI must not sign this contract at this stage, they should let this decision to the next government. It will be biggest mistake which congress govt can do, after this opposition will have enough ammunition to take down the Congress.

I am not sure how a new person replacing previous negotiator can conclude this mega deal so soon?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 24 Dec 2013 20:33

I don't care about this or next government. Elections happen and government come and go.
The country needs large number of good fighters to take care of the
security of the country.
MMRCA is already delayed and this should now NOT be linked to elections and new government.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Dec 2013 20:35

chackojoseph wrote:The NSA phone tapping tilted to grippens favour. F-18 was the real choice.

It was the political choice i.e. the government's choice. The FAB's choice on the other hand has always been the Gripen. Its only model that will give them the option of a follow-on order. With the Rafale or SH, the orders would have inevitably gotten capped at 36 units.

Leaked report: Brazilian air force 'wants Gripen'

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Dec 2013 08:00

Fair enough. At the same time President Dilma Rousseff (ex left guerrilla) told the surprised Americans that F-18 was the best plane. Kerry than went out of the way to alleviate Dilma's concern over TOT etc. It does not qualify to be a political decision. So there are two versions of the same event.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Dec 2013 11:51

Austin wrote:The are already flying a demonstration model of Gripen-NG ( Gripen-E ) with 414 Engine and a lot of the capabilities has been demonstrated via it , so its not a big risk and the ususal risk is certainly not something that experience of SAAB cant overcome.

Plus, they import a lot from Euro/American partners to speed things up. No fear of sanctions etc. or strategic choices for home grown solutions.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Dec 2013 11:52

chaanakya wrote:Looks like Yaswant Sinha of BJP has raised a stink over Rafale deal.
1. The way calculations have been done to make it L1 has been questioned by several experts and two senior MOD officials
2. Offset clause and domestic component is being violated.
3. Money could have exchanged hands.

Govt might develop cold feet. Things were in advanced stage of finalisation.

Perhaps BJP is afraid a lot of hush money will exchange hands to help their rivals, for 2014.
Best deal is left for 2014.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 25 Dec 2013 22:58

Dassault Aviation carrying out gap analysis of HAL’s capabilities.

Preparing to supply 126 Rafale combat aircraft to India, French firm Dassault Aviation is carrying out gap analysis of aerospace PSU HAL’s fighter plane production capabilities to recommend upgrades.

Dassault Aviation and HAL have to work together to produce 108 Rafale fighter planes in India as part of the contract to supply 126 Medium-Multi-role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) to the Indian Air Force.

“Dassault is interacting with various HAL divisions on work packages related to the M-MRCA contract. As part of the technology transfer, Dassault is recommending production capability required. By carrying out gap analysis, HAL would be planning upgradation of facilities as per norms,” HAL officials told PTI.

The Defence Ministry and the French firm are still in the process of negotiating the deal which is expected to cost the Government more than Rs 60,000 crore.

The HAL is designated as the lead integrator in the programme and it has been making preparations for the implementation of the project.

“HAL has created a dedicated full time MMRCA Project Group in May 2012 and it is operational since then. Action groups have been created at all HAL divisions taking part in the MMRCA programme. All groups are working in a coordinated manner to interact with the Original Equipment Manufacturers,” the officials said.

Dassault wanted Reliance Industries to be the main partner in production of the aircraft in India but the government made it clear that it was not possible as the tender for the procurement clearly stated that aerospace PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would be the lead integrator for the project.

Dassault is collaborating with a number of other Indian private and public sector companies to fulfill its offsets obligations and as part of it, will set up a facility with Reliance to produce the wings of the Rafale combat aircraft.

India had last year selected Rafale aircraft of France after a five-year process after eliminating five other contenders in the race.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Dec 2013 00:07

Hope HAL replicates the Dassault facility to build the Rafale in India. That in itself will be a step up for HAL.

member_28336 · Post by **member_28336** » 26 Dec 2013 00:58

HAL is not known for efficiency. My friend interviewed IIT Aeronautical engineering grads and one of the questions is why not seek employment in HAL instead of moving over to software. Aside from the pay, the primary reason cited is the bureaucracy and inefficiency at HAL. ISRO seems to have a much better reputation and has got its act together (comparatively speaking).

One would hope that Dassault's gap analysis is taken seriously and HAL uses this opportunity to improve itself. Indian private industry is several times more efficient and government shouldnt be vary of letting private players into defense manufacturing with government doing more of an oversight duty to ensure that strategic information is protected. Our defence indigenisation and manufacturing would be several times more efficient if our private players like L&T, Tatas, Mahindras are let in. Reliance should demonstrate more integrity before it is let in on defense contracts, imo.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 26 Dec 2013 17:19

Ideally GoI should be focussed on NAL, DRDO and CSIR. Once the prototype is ready, it should call a tender, give the exact specifications like grade of titanium or quality of optics to be used and so on, and let L&T, BHEL, M&M, TATA's and other compete to manufacture the fighter. The company which quotes the lowest price per unit wins. There should be very tight quality control at each and every step. The maintenance should have another tender with the company winning the construction tender being immediately disqualified for the maintenance part.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 26 Dec 2013 19:31

Christopher Sidor wrote:Ideally GoI should be focussed on NAL, DRDO and CSIR. Once the prototype is ready, it should call a tender, give the exact specifications like grade of titanium or quality of optics to be used and so on, and let L&T, BHEL, M&M, TATA's and other compete to manufacture the fighter...

This is the fundamental error IMO. A product is only as good as its prototype so this job should be handled by the most qualified people available in India. Unfortunately, those people are increasingly found in the private sector, not the PSUs for reasons already pointed out above. If we absolutely must split up these tasks, it would be far better for the M&Ms, Tatas & L&Ts to develop the prototypes with full GoI support and let the PSUs do the manufacturing. But the ideal would be to fully privatize the PSUs, cull the deadwood and pay the rest on par with private sector. Until we get to this point, every rupee we throw at the PSUs will be mostly wasted and increase India's vulnerability. This has been our story so far but we stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it.

I too hope that HAL seizes the moment and fully implements everything Dassault suggests. That is the only hope it has of surviving in any form, not just as a PSU. I believe a BJP GoI will be far less forgiving of inefficiencies because they will simply be less tied into the "system" that feeds all the corruption. And it is a very corrupt and rotten system.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Dec 2013 08:08

Vive le France?!!!

Raffy in pole position to win the UAE deal as the Euro-Farter is rejected.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... eal.html[b]

Blow for Britain and BAE Systems as UAE rules out Eurofighter deal
Britain fails to seal multi-billion pound deal to sell 60 Eurofighter Typhoon jet fighters to the United Arab Emirates [/b]

By Alistair Osborne, and Alan Tovey

8:09AM GMT 20 Dec 201

Defence contractor BAE Systems has been hit by a double-blow from the Gulf over its Typhoon fighter jet programme, damaging its export ambitions and forcing the company to warn on profits.

In a major reversal, announced after the market closed, BAE said the United Arab Emirates had ended protracted negotiations over a potential order worth up to £6bn for around 60 of the supersonic aircraft – despite the personal intervention of Prime Minister David Cameron.

The defence group also disclosed that, for the third year running, it had failed to agree the price for 72 Typhoons for Saudi Arabia, reducing this year’s forecast earnings per share by “6p-7p” – equivalent to about £250m off operating profits, according to analysts. They had been expecting 43p of earnings.

BAE shares, which had closed up 7.9 at 442p before Thursday's announcement, dropped 4pc when trading began on Friday.

UAE’s decision to balk at buying Typhoons is a major setback for BAE, which was hoping to make the Gulf principality its fourth export market for the jet after Saudi Arabia, Oman and Austria.

In a blow for British jobs and exports, the defence group said: “BAE Systems and the UK Government have been in discussions with the Government of the United Arab Emirates regarding a range of defence and security capabilities including the potential supply of Typhoon aircraft. The UAE have advised that they have elected not to proceed with these proposals at this time.”

BAE insisted that “recognising the risk, scale and complexity of such a transaction, the group had not built this prospect into its planning assumptions”.

However, senior BAE executives had been extremely hopeful of winning a contract that would have guaranteed around two more years work for its production and assembly facilities at Salmesbury and Warton in Lancashire. The current Typhoon workload only extends to 2018, while fresh orders also bring contracts for the Hawk training jet.

BAE was lead negotiator for the UAE contract within the pan-European Eurofighter consortium, whose other members are Italy’s Finmeccanica and Airbus-maker EADS, representing Germany and Spain.

A BAE spokesman said: “We put a world-class proposal on the table, but the UAE has elected not to proceed at this time.” The company added: “BAE stands ready to work with the UAE to address any future requirements.”

The setback is an embarrassment for Mr Cameron, who on a visit to Dubai last month said Britain was “in the running” to sell the Typhoon to the Middle East.

Speaking as the Eurofighter faced competition from French rival Dassault and its Rafale aircraft, Mr Cameron said he was continuing to “support Typhoon around the world, which is doing extremely well and is clearly in the running here as well, so there’s a lot of jobs, a lot of investment to be garnered from visits like this”.

Mr Cameron also visited the UAE in November last year, when a spokesman for Number 10 issued a statement saying: “The UAE, Saudi Arabia and Oman have all expressed an interest in purchasing Typhoons and the Government is aiming to secure sales of more than 100 aircraft to the region in the coming year, deals that together would be directly worth over £6bn pounds to British firms.”

A Government spokesman last night denied that the UAE decision was in any way related to Britain’s “no” vote on military intervention in Syria, saying: “This was a commercial decision. It was always going to be a difficult deal to do. And as BAE have said, it was an exciting prospect but not part of their business plan.”

The spokesman added that “the Government continues to support BAE Systems in their efforts to win further export orders”, noting that the “Typhoon is a world-leading capability” that had been selected by seven Air Forces - the Eurofighter members and the three export markets.

“We continue to have a strong bilateral relationship with UAE that delivers jobs and growth in both countries, for example following the Prime Minister’s last visit in November both Emirates and Etihad airlines placed large orders for Airbus aircraft worth more than £5bn to the UK economy,” the spokesman said.

Zafar Khan, an analyst at Societe Generale, cautioned that he had never seen Typhoon as favourite for the UAE deal.

“My feeling is that the UAE have a very strong relationship with the French and the current fleet has a lot of Mirage jets in it. So I had always felt that UAE was likely to veer towards the Rafale,” he said.

BAE’s ongoing failure to agree a step-up in prices for 72 Typhoon jets for Saudi Arabia, under the “Salam” contract first negotiated in 2007, will hit this year’s profits.

BAE said “the group’s focus in these negotiations continues to be on agreeing appropriate terms and not the timing of such an agreement”.

But the stand-off is a setback for BAE chief executive Ian King, who said in August: “We do expect we will close this out in the second half of this year," noting that the Saudis were now talking about increasing the order “beyond the 72”.

BAE has so far delivered 28 aircraft under the contract and stressed that Saudi Arabia had continued to sign contracts with the company relating to the Typhoon order. They include a £3.4bn deal, running to 2016, for the provision of manpower, logistics and training to the Saudi air force.

BAE said its relationship with Saudi Arabia “remains excellent”, noting it had agreed £1.5bn of contracts this month for the “supply of guided weapons and Tornado maintenance and upgrades”.

A BAE spokesman said the after-hours announcement was due to having not been “notified by the UAE government” until Thursday afternoon.

The fact that BAe hasn't even finalised the price of its Farters to the Saudis indicates wto things.One,the kickback sum ,methodology of payment hasn't yet been agreed upon (remember how the previous allegations of kickbacks was squashed in the national interest?),or that the aircraft is hideously expensive and the Saudis are driving a hard bargain,perhaps in the know that the UAE would buy French and keep both EU manufacturers happy.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Dec 2013 08:22

Yawn ....................... they reportedly stopped negotiations 10+ days ago (http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 649264.xml)

the current fleet has a lot of Mirage jets in it. So I had always felt that UAE was likely to veer towards the Rafale

Jun 24, 2009
As per news reports, the UAE is interested in a purchase of 60 Rafales with an agreement that France will help it to find a buyer for its 60 ...

France has been sitting on this egg for a long time.

Dec 26, 2013 :: France’s Rafale Fighters Need Exports – But Where?

despite statements by French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Driana that this was a:

“…disappointment on a target that wasn’t a priority…. Brazil was not the priority target for the Rafale. We have more important targets in India and the Gulf (Arab states)…. We have good reason to think that in India and the Gulf (Arab states) there will be results.”

nash · Post by **nash** » 02 Jan 2014 09:19

after scrapping of AW deal, the way opposition united against government on this deal and other deal.

I feel that chances are diminishing very fast for this spineless government to ink rafale deal in FY 2013.

we are already in JAN and probably in 2-3 months current LS will be dissolved.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 02 Jan 2014 10:55

nash wrote:after scrapping of AW deal, the way opposition united against government on this deal and other deal.

I feel that chances are diminishing very fast for this spineless government to ink rafale deal in FY 2013.

we are already in JAN and probably in 2-3 months current LS will be dissolved.

Good. More power to the Flanker+LCA saga.

Time to end this MRCA charade and focus on the birds in hand. Literally.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Jan 2014 11:28

If this gets delayed even further (till after elections), some beancounter will do the foll math and raise objections: More Sukhois (cheaper acquisition cost + higher operating cost) is better than Raffy (very high operating cost but lower operating cost).

I think IAF missed a trick in not calling for smaller tender, should have learnt from the Hawk saga. First 66 were very painful, but the next 57 caused only minor flutter. The subsequent 20 didn't register much at all. They looked to get the bigger discounts by increasing order size, but ironically has become a big millstone around their necks.