Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Snehashis
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Snehashis »

Kersi D wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Only China makes the world's best - with the exception of America - military equipment. The rest...like the Europeans and others make only inferior and useless equipment.
WRONG WRONG WRONG

China makes the world's best military equipment.

AND

Pakistan makes the world's second best military equipment.

The rest of the world like the Europeans and others make only inferior and useless equipment.

SO WHY THE HELLWE DID NOT CONSIDER THIS J10, J11,J23.3434, J31.54 ?

Why do we settle for the nth best equipmnet

K



Kersi
Kersi, i agree with you wholeheartedly. China is the only country in the world that made a piano fly. The first time i saw a clear picture of J-20 i thought it was a piano to be played by Elton John in the Chengdu concert. But later i found the amazing Chinese engineers found a way to fly it.
Kartik
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kartik »

BAe Systems and Cassidian are apparently working on a revised proposal that will be "sharper" while not reducing their margins..Fat chance of such a proposal ever attracting the MoD or the MoF even if the Rafale negotiations get into a stalemate situation.

Aviation Week article
Meanwhile, the company continues to keep its eye on the Indian Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, where Dassault Aviation was named the lowest-cost compliant bidder. There is precedent for talks between the lowest-cost bidder and the government to stall, and the runner-up lowest-cost bidder – in this case the Eurofighter Typhoon – to win the final contract, BAE Systems CEO Ian King notes.

BAE Systems is now working with Cassidian, the German EADS unit leading the campaign, to improve the offer on the table in case New Delhi turns away from Rafale. The goal is to sharpen the proposal “without slashing margins,” says Guy Griffiths, BAE Systems managing director, international. “We and the U.K. government will be pushing hard to get our German partners to move forward,” King adds.
ramana
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

The above statement shows how the proposal was padded.

In US the bidder won't be allowed any where near the project.
Kailash
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kailash »

Nothing to do with MMRCA, but certainly shows the change in attitude..
Minister of State at the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Jeremy Browne, on Thursday said India deserves place at top tables where decisions are taken on security.

Browne was speaking at the Conference on CBRN Disaster Management and Security. He said that UK was keen to share its expertise in this field with India and there was much to be gained through sharing of experiences. He lauded India's economic rise and its strong industrial base
Reject one fighter and suddenly become important :wink:
Lalmohan
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ this change has been brewing for some time, the fighter deal was to 'cement the relationship' - france is also treating it the same way
we are back to the days of european artillery and musketry officers freelancing with indian armies :)
member_22539
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_22539 »

Singha wrote:^ :rotfl:

so its the PLAAF which is kimono shivering this time - the writer saying the J-10B and J-11 even with improved engines and radars would be insufficient to deal with the rafale.

Kimono is Japanese, this is akin to accusing Indians of salwar shivering :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shyamd »

FYI, EF gang and governments are launching an investigation into how dassault got the L1. Looks like this may not die down. Apparently arms dealers are being placed under scrutiny as well as dassaults contacts in Asia.

Expect some leaks to the press over the next month or 2. No one can believe how rafale got l1
kelesis
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kelesis »

Well, Rafale has always been cheaper than EF, there is no surprise at all! It seems germans and italians are giving up but the british unions are hysterical, that's why we can read violent articles in nationalist press.

The truth is very cruel for EF crew, the swiss evaluation (Typhoon more expensive and less capable than Rafale in all kind of missions, even air to air!) is very difficult to admit.

How will britain make an investigation in India? Even if the secret services try to find something to leak, it will be very negative reports for Typhoon...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

Badar
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Badar »

As I mentioned before the offset dilutions are beginning with the introduction of multipliers etc. Of note is also the fact that offset obligations are currently being met with low tech endeavors like shelters and air conditioners etc or non defense related investments.

What's also new is the proposed "offset credit" system, which will heavily favor already entrenched foreign vendors in future acquisitions.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/02/ ... ffset.html
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

Rafale Selected… Now Consolidation
News Click
It is however known that the MoD has shared the salient aspects with the two finalists to underline the fairness and transparency of the process, and so as to ward off precisely the kind of recrimination and charges of bias or worse that emanated from the losing parties at least in the immediate aftermath of the announcement.

It is believed that the IAF was given far more primacy in the decision-making process than in most earlier deals. The aircraft performance and how the user saw it fitting into not only its strategic and tactical plans but also its fleet operations and maintenance would therefore have had substantial weightage. It is believed that around 640 parameters were used in the comparative evaluation. Value for money would undoubtedly have been a major consideration. But it can only be part of the contemporary mythology of tendering that in the final round, both contenders were on equal footing as to performance and compatibility with IAF fleet requirements, with only price being thereafter the only determining factor.
the Eurofighter is believed to be optimized for air superiority whereas the Rafale, with somewhat longer range and ability to carry more armaments (including, the French are believed to have stressed, nuclear weapons), is thought to have better fitted the IAF’s evolving requirements.
Several commentators consider the Eurofighter to be among the best contemporary aerial combat aircraft, excluding the US F-22 Raptor which is a class apart but too advanced for foreseeable threats and far too expensive even for the US which has discontinued further procurement. On the other hand, India already has the Sukhoi SU-30 MkI whose performance in the Indradhanush exercises against all US and European fighters must surely put it there among the best. India has recently ordered a further 64 Su-30 MkIs over and above its earlier order of 140 aircraft most of which are to be made in India, so clearly that slot is taken. If India wanted more aerial fighters, it would make far greater sense to simply buy more Su-30s than to go in for new Eurofighters. Besides, the Rafale also has a ready carrier-based version.
The Rafale with its longer range and modern technology provides excellent complementarity with the Mirage fleet, further augmented by the fact that both aircraft are from Dassault of France which is also executing the Mirage upgrade. On the other hand, the Eurofighter would have been a completely new type of aircraft for the IAF, requiring all-new support systems. There may also have been some questions about Its AESA radar which is still under development.
France is also said to have offered, and guaranteed its government’s backing for, significant transfer of technology to India. This has two dimensions, both very important: first, extent of indigenization and control especially over vital technologies in times of conflict, and second cost. It is quite likely that the Rafale scored heavily over the Eurofighter on both counts.
Today Russia and France are the two remaining non-US nationally-based military aviation industries covering design and manufacture of airframes, engines, armaments, avionics and systems integration, with Britain having increasingly turned towards the consortium approach. The British government was deeply hurt that the Eurofighter lost out but then the Eurofighter is not British.
Yet, for all this deep partnership, the British have been prone to cause problems, withholding or delaying assistance for commercial or other reasons. It took considerable persuasion by India to resolve several difficulties with the Hawk Trainers especially as regards technology transfer for license manufacture in India. In terms of long-term defence collaboration, therefore, it seems the IAF has decided to throw in its lot other with France and Russia for mainline fighters while going with manufacturers from Britain and even the US for support and specialized-role aircraft required in smaller numbers.
. The political leadership in India needs to ensure that these expensive and high technology acquisitions do not simply yield costly machines dependent on equally costly external support services but are converted into long-term investments in indigenous capability and industrial strength in advanced technology.
Christopher Sidor
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Christopher Sidor »

shukla wrote:Rafale Selected… Now Consolidation
News Click
the Eurofighter is believed to be optimized for air superiority whereas the Rafale, with somewhat longer range and ability to carry more armaments (including, the French are believed to have stressed, nuclear weapons), is thought to have better fitted the IAF’s evolving requirements.
Several commentators consider the Eurofighter to be among the best contemporary aerial combat aircraft, excluding the US F-22 Raptor which is a class apart but too advanced for foreseeable threats and far too expensive even for the US which has discontinued further procurement. On the other hand, India already has the Sukhoi SU-30 MkI whose performance in the Indradhanush exercises against all US and European fighters must surely put it there among the best. India has recently ordered a further 64 Su-30 MkIs over and above its earlier order of 140 aircraft most of which are to be made in India, so clearly that slot is taken. If India wanted more aerial fighters, it would make far greater sense to simply buy more Su-30s than to go in for new Eurofighters. Besides, the Rafale also has a ready carrier-based version.
Yes Rafael is a better omni-role fighter compared to EFT, which was primarily made for air-dominance role. But relying on only one fighter, i.e SU-30, for air-dominance is not wise. Especially when the same fighter is in service with PLAAF. By this time PLAAF would have a very good idea on what the air frame of SU-30 can do and its rough capabilities. The only saving grace is that Indian variant of SU-30 is powered by some very good western electronics unlike the PLAAF variant. We can take it to heart that PLAAF would have passed this info to Pakis too.
shukla wrote:
The Rafale with its longer range and modern technology provides excellent complementarity with the Mirage fleet, further augmented by the fact that both aircraft are from Dassault of France which is also executing the Mirage upgrade. On the other hand, the Eurofighter would have been a completely new type of aircraft for the IAF, requiring all-new support systems. There may also have been some questions about Its AESA radar which is still under development.
I don't think that there is much of a commonality between Mirage and Raffy. The support structure of Raffy will have to be built. This is basically a red herring.
shukla wrote:
France is also said to have offered, and guaranteed its government’s backing for, significant transfer of technology to India. This has two dimensions, both very important: first, extent of indigenization and control especially over vital technologies in times of conflict, and second cost. It is quite likely that the Rafale scored heavily over the Eurofighter on both counts.
Again heresy.
Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

IAF is depending on the big radars of the su30, its upgrade path and the PAKFA arriving @ IOC in say 2020....Rus is also said to be working on replacements for the r77 and r73 in parallel, plus a new LRAAM based on the AA9.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Nihat »

Not to mention that the rafale and the eurofighter would fire the same missile in the form of meteor aam .
Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

khan was said to be working to base a unit of F22 in japan or guam and use their VLO to sneak in close for amraam shots while the bigger aperture F-15E apg63 aesa radars behind them did the active illumination. not sure if it was a needed soln or a soln searching for a problem.

there was a article on it.
JTull
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by JTull »

F-22 were in Guam for 4 months in 2009 and 3 months in 2010
SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

the irrefutable aspect of khans is that the minimum of the max is always exported, whereas with others that is converse. russia and france has always given their max to us... without tech loopholes, but have chewed our pockets largely because of bad planning expecting an upgrade path [e.g. mig29 not having an aesa, m2k upgrade itself, etc].

but if the khan land raytheon slowly comes out to port their systems on every aircraft IAF has, then we begin a new chapter. these project must be totally handled by drdo lab boys.

plausibility yes, possibility no from the khans, due to jackal and hyde seekers.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

Smaller French Firms Feel Offset Heat
http://www.defensenews.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 2302190008
Asked if India could build an active electronically scanned array radar, Thales chief technical officer Marko Erman said, "Not in the very near future, but who knows?"

Erman later added, "To our knowledge, only France and the United States have operational actively scanned radars, but studies are being done in India."
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

How to Win Large Contracts in BRICS Nations: Follow the French
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2012/02/1 ... low-french
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

the sea dragon on our bears is a downrated version of the novella suite of RuN bears. its not full spec.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Badar »

SaiK wrote:the irrefutable aspect of khans is that the minimum of the max is always exported, whereas with others that is converse. russia and france has always given their max to us... without tech loopholes.
That's not true. France, Russia, Israel et al don't export their "max" either. The question shouldn't be who is exporting the best tech they have - but which is the best tech available to us.

The issue with US is less pure tech levels supplied; they are usually willing to supply higher grade of tech than available from Russia, France, Israel etc. It is the other costs of doing business with them - the implicit subversion of strategic independence through free mix of politics and arms sales, intrusive business protection rules etc that make them a bad seller.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

IAF officer faces court martial for demanding bribe
TOI
They said the CoI had found Thakur prima facie involved in demanding bribe from French company Dassault Aviation for allotting a 'more advantageous position' for its Rafale aircraft in the 'static' aircraft display section at the biennial airshow. One of the officials of Dassault Aviation, who had filed the complaint against the officer, is also there to appear as a witness in the General Court Martial (GCM) headed by a Group Captain-rank officer, the sources said.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by mallikarjun »

Sorry if it was posted earliar, thought interesting....
The Making of Rafale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=douzAeXk ... re=related

worth watching this one too..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWeiG52Q ... re=related
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kelesis »

Rafale F3 qualified by AdlA for war against Alien Tripod

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAbpjbv ... ure=relmfu

And this is something the Typhoon is not able to do. :twisted:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by VishalJ »

My Latest Photo:
More Rafale Girlie Action Image > http://j.mp/x1BQ8r
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

Rafale Revolution in Indian Airspace
Forbes India

Image

The Rafale deal has the potential to either make or break the country’s future in aerospace manufacturing
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France 24's coverage of the Rafale Choice by India

Post by Jaybhatt »

India's Rafale: 'The mother of all deals' - posted by pandyan.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120228-ind ... investment

This is interesting, except the appalling quality of the English anchor woman.

She mispronounces Dassault as "Dassawlt", sounding both "l" and "t" as the Angrez gaonwallahs do, when they try to speak
civilised languages like Hindi, Sanskrit and French. To compound her crime, she calls the aircraft "Rafaley".

This female is also most condescending about India, as her loaded questions showed.

Surely, France24 should be more choosy with their English employees. If the French want to retain Indian goodwill, this anchor should be shown the door.

Conspiracy buffs, of course, may rightly prefer to treat this as an attempt by the perfidious English to stab the French in the back. :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by skganji »

shukla wrote:http://forbesindia.com/article/special/rafale-revolution-in-indian-airspace/32340/1
The Rafale deal has the potential to either make or break the country’s future in aerospace manufacturing
I don't understand why this negative and pessimistic comment on Raffy's selection. It is not going to break the country's future by any means. The selection is made by a highly efficient team from IAF considering all the parameters.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

skganji wrote:
shukla wrote:http://forbesindia.com/article/special/rafale-revolution-in-indian-airspace/32340/1
The Rafale deal has the potential to either make or break the country’s future in aerospace manufacturing
I don't understand why this negative and pessimistic comment on Raffy's selection. It is not going to break the country's future by any means. The selection is made by a highly efficient team from IAF considering all the parameters.
'Make or break' is used as an idiom here meaning 'either succed or fail' to bring capabilities to enhance our aerospace growth. If you read the article you would realise that its not meant in the literal sense..
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

Rahul M
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Re: France 24's coverage of the Rafale Choice by India

Post by Rahul M »

Jaybhatt wrote:........ To compound her crime, she calls the aircraft "Rafaley".

This female is also most condescending about India, as her loaded questions showed.
..........
didn't see any condescension from the anchorwoman. the desi correspondent vikram singh was however a regular gungadin.
rafaley was funny though.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manny »

Rakesh wrote:How to Win Large Contracts in BRICS Nations: Follow the French
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2012/02/1 ... low-french
"it and has produced a great deal of licensed French technology to be sold abroad, especially to China. China currently does not have Dassault fighters, but does produce variants of the French Dauphin helicopter; one that has also been purchased by the US navy, as well as one of China’s most numerous Anti-aircraft systems, the HQ-7 Crotale. "

The french also sold submarines to Pakistan..right? Did they not setup a submarine building operation in Pakistan so they can target India?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by aniket »

Yes France sold Agosta submarines.The first two ere made originally for South Africa in France but delivered to France.4 more were sold to Pakistan with two of them being made in Pakistan with french assistance.These later 4 subs were modified to give lower acoustic signature, lower diving depth, improved battery range,performance and greater degree of automation to reduce crew needed and called Khalid Class submarines.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kelesis »

MoD raises objections over Rafale’s lifecycle cost

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/232 ... fales.html
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

So it begins!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rahul M »

rehashed old news.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_22516 »

It raises the question of 'can we pay for Rafale and in the same time pay for jaguar engines, trainers, M2000, and so on'.
It's a major concern ! And this alone could put down MMRCA...
So MoD is like Switzerland : chose an aircraft first and then wonder if the money will be available.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by karan_mc »

Is this the reaction to MMRCA selection in India

Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China
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