Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

deploying them in a TSP centric way would be a total waste. their peacetime main stations need to be china focussed as in kalaikunda, bagdogra or tezpur. there is ample land in places like guwahati and probably jorhat as well if a greenfield base is sought and present transport command basing means the AF colony / infra is already there and just needs expanding.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

guwahati being a state capital also has decent hotels and restaurants serving liquor (upto 4*) for the french delegations should they want some wine and nightlife away from the visitors hostel in the IAF base :mrgreen: none of the other candidates have anything much away from base.
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Re: The Limeys behave utterly odiously

Post by Badar »

Jaybhatt wrote:Badar : "I think we don't need to react that much. The notoriously purple British press is distinct from the Government/BAe/Cassidian. They can say what they want (as does ours). Holding relations hostage to them is pointless. I think we should give a little rope to the british premier as well, his posturing is for his own voters and not really directed at us.
We should look at them, enjoy a moment of schadenfreude and walk away. Their tamasha is not worth getting worked up over."
A confused and meandering statement. Not clear what you mean.
Let me break it down for you
[1] Purple press screaming hoarse. Why? Page Views. Response: Ignore.
[2] Prime Minister pushing Typhoon. Why? Local Politics. Response: Ignore.
Our response: Enjoy their discomfiture. Calibrate response to official moves from GoUK/BAe/Cassidian.

Hope that is sufficiently less confusing for you.
However, their top political honchos, including their PM, David Cameron, have also been spouting nonsense. Specially Cameron, with his hyperbole about the EF being vastly superior to the Rafale.
No really - what did you expect him to say. "Say boys, Typhoon is a lemon. France totally deserved a win"?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by dinesha »

^^^ In a similar technical evaluation done by the Swiss air force in 2008-09, and recently leaked to the Swiss media, the Rafale was the clear winner
http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf
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The British Whining and Ranting

Post by Jaybhatt »

Badar : your so-called elucidation is even more contradictory than your earlier warbling.

And you tie yourself in knots further when you say something in one line and the exact opposite in the next.

Example : Badar A : "Prime Minister pushing Typhoon. Why? Local Politics. Response: Ignore."

Badar B : in the very next line : "Calibrate response to official moves from GoUK/BAe/Cassidian.".
Is the British PM the "GoUK" or not ? Which is "official" in your convoluted world ?

As far as responding to BAe / Cassidian is concerned, we don't even have to give them the time of the day. They lost / were booted out - the matter end here.

" Hope that is sufficiently less confusing for you." For a person who is going around in circles, this is rich.

A waste of time to carry on with this dialogue.
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Re: The British Whining and Ranting

Post by Badar »

Jaybhatt wrote:A waste of time to carry on with this dialogue.
Very sorry to have wasted you time. Please carry on.
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Re: The British Whining and Ranting

Post by Avid »

Jaybhatt wrote:Badar : your so-called elucidation is even more contradictory than your earlier warbling.

And you tie yourself in knots further when you say something in one line and the exact opposite in the next.

Example : Badar A : "Prime Minister pushing Typhoon. Why? Local Politics. Response: Ignore."

Badar B : in the very next line : "Calibrate response to official moves from GoUK/BAe/Cassidian.".
Is the British PM the "GoUK" or not ? Which is "official" in your convoluted world ?

As far as responding to BAe / Cassidian is concerned, we don't even have to give them the time of the day. They lost / were booted out - the matter end here.

" Hope that is sufficiently less confusing for you." For a person who is going around in circles, this is rich.

A waste of time to carry on with this dialogue.
Clearly, a calibrated response is not something that appeals to you. :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by srai »

Kersi D wrote:
merlin wrote: 3 operating bases with 2 squadrons each
Where ? Ambala ? Halwara ? Gwalior ? Kalaikunda ? Bhuj ?

Remember that a few years ago ACM Fali Major had said that all the air bases will be developed such that any aircraft can be based at any base.
Answer is Ambala, Jodhpur and Hasimara. Yes, a lot of bases will have some level of infrastructure to support all types in the IAF service. However, only the main operating bases will have the full infrastructure (as pointed out in the article you are refering) to support a specific type, such as the Rafale or Su-30MKI. When the IAF deploys a fighter type to other bases for short durations, it will use its transport planes to also move the necessary support equipment/parts and personnel for that fighter type to support operations for that deployment duration.

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review
...
IAF has already identified Ambala and Jodhpur airbases in the western sector, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector, to house the first MMRCA squadrons.
...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kelesis »

Future European Aircraft : Dassault and BAE

According to french financial newspaper Les Echos, France and UK will sign on friday a letter of intend to launch the future european combat aircraft. It is a bilateral negociation involving only Dassault and BAE and it is clearly mentioned that it will replace both Rafale and Typhoon. EADS is out of the game.

http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-sect ... 289951.php
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

So not much future for EADS.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Eric Leiderman »

May be thats something that we should be getting in on at the ground floor
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Mort Walker »

EADS is the parent of Airbus, so they will still be in the aircraft business.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kelesis »

I made a few post here on the relations between EADS, Dassault, Thales France and Germany. This is a good article from the FT.

Financial Time : Dassault’s family value has costs, say rivals

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/8ab8f008 ... z1mRMJ7wOx
The problem for France is that while the government has long acknowledged that its arms industry must consolidate – with recent austerity measures intensifying the pressure on companies to cut costs – progress has been almost non-existent. The UK, Italy and Germany have all consolidated their industries to the point where they have defined national champions in BAE Systems, Finmeccanica and EADS respectively. France, by comparison, has a complex system of cross-ownership and duplication, where Dassault, EADS and Thales, the military electronics group, all vie for leadership.
EADS is the company that loses most from Dassault’s dominance. Louis Gallois, the outgoing French chief executive, says it has made three attempts to buy into or acquire Thales to consolidate its own French military business with the defence electronics group. It has been blocked each time, most recently in 2008 when Paris let Dassault acquire a 21 per cent stake in Thales even though EADS offered a better price. Dassault now exercises “industrial control” over Thales. In one of those strange quirks of French industry, EADS owns 46 per cent of Dassault Aviation, but has no control. At a recent meeting with investors Marwan Lahoud, EADS’s number two, spoke of his company’s “Thales dream” and said he could think of 10 good reasons why it would make a good match. His problem is a German government – which controls 22.5 per cent of EADS, the same level as France – that is wary of making the company “too French”. Paris is equally suspicious about selling defence assets to EADS, particularly with the German Tom Enders about to become chief executive.
However, the article is incomplete, the author forgot to mentioned a big player : Safran which is bigger than Thales and Dassault. The french gov publicly asked Thales and Safran to merge, but it is difficult because of the commercial rivality between those two. And Thales is already buying DCNS little by little (35% for the moment). The French gov needs Dassault to control Thales and to lead the consolidation process. The Rafale success in India and maybe Brazil or AUE, will probably make things going faster.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kelesis »

ramana wrote:So not much future for EADS.
Mort Walker wrote:EADS is the parent of Airbus, so they will still be in the aircraft business.
France and Britain wants to prevent any potential new Eurofighter of A400M disasters and wants small bilateral cooperation or cooperation under the clear authority of one contractor (like nEUROn).

The truth is that German industrials are very isolated. If they want EADS to have more weight in european defense industry, they have to accept that EADS executive board will be in future mainly under French control.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

kelesis wrote:Future European Aircraft : Dassault and BAE

According to french financial newspaper Les Echos, France and UK will sign on friday a letter of intend to launch the future european combat aircraft. It is a bilateral negociation involving only Dassault and BAE and it is clearly mentioned that it will replace both Rafale and Typhoon. EADS is out of the game.
Brits are rather smart!!!!

BTW, did someone in India mention the AMCA to these guys?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^Wasn't the Jaguar aircraft an Anglo French colaboration prior to the EADS? So this would be back to the future.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

India: Rafale Decision Final
AIN
India’s Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne confirmed to AIN here at the Singapore Airshow that the country’s resolve to select the lowest bidder for the contract for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft remains in place. The contract negotiation committee (CNC) opened Dassault Aviation’s bid proposing its Rafale on February 13 and identified the French OEM as the lowest bidder. The decision to involve another manufacturer is “procedurally untenable,” said Browne. “We have a procedure as per the defense procurement policy that stipulates the contract goes to the lowest bidder.”

The CNC, which gets into action once the lowest bidder has been identified, is scheduled to start price negotiations with Dassault from March 5. Discussions will be held on electronics, radar, transfer of technology and offsets. Asked if he was satisfied with the Rafale selection, Browne said it was, “Brilliant! We got it at the best cost possible. The decision was based on performance and Rafale passed all qualifications.” However, Browne said the requirement for the fighters was “as of yesterday,” meaning that, in reality, he expects the process to be completed by the end of the year. The air force plans to start pilot training soon, he added. Browne also said Brazil has asked India to share its acquisition process, including evaluation and lifecycle costs.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

btw EADS had test flown a ucav called barracuda from goose bay canada back in late 2009. if UK-France BAE-Dassault are tying up for next project, its like NeuRon will be a key munna player in the portfolio, apart from a manned plane if they decide it (a bit late for that).

methinks NeuRon and derivatives is what they are after....along with new families of sensors and stealth weapons.

UK is being pragmatic as usual, very agnostic to anything but the safety of their own behinds :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

Jodhpur - hmph!

the piss process and sikularism will ensure there is no indo-pak war even if a 100KT jihadi nuke were to take out chandni chowk tomorrow.

should have been hashimara + guwahati. 66% china: 33% pakis. reason being if we are strike vital economic targets in mainland china and eastern/northern logistical approaches into tibet via manned sorties , NE is where we need to base out of.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rahul Shukla »

Singha wrote:Jodhpur - hmph! ... should have been hashimara + guwahati. 66% china: 33% pakis...
Per Dassault, only four C-130's (not the extended J's, mind you) need undertake but one flight each to transport all equipment and spares necessary to operate a squadron of 20 Rafales for 30 days. Rafales will fly to where they are needed, whenever they are needed.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vic »

If I advising France, I would say that they should immediately lend a few Rafales to India (for free) to start training procedures in order to cement the deal further.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Jaybhatt »

Jaybhatt wrote: :

Badar : your so-called elucidation is even more contradictory than your earlier warbling.

And you tie yourself in knots further when you say something in one line and the exact opposite in the next.

Example : Badar A : "Prime Minister pushing Typhoon. Why? Local Politics. Response: Ignore."

Badar B : in the very next line : "Calibrate response to official moves from GoUK/BAe/Cassidian.".
Is the British PM the "GoUK" or not ? Which is "official" in your convoluted world ?

As far as responding to BAe / Cassidian is concerned, we don't even have to give them the time of the day. They lost / were booted out - the matter ends here.

" Hope that is sufficiently less confusing for you." For a person who is going around in circles, this is rich.

A waste of time to carry on with this dialogue.
____________________________________________________________________

Avid : Clearly, a calibrated response is not something that appeals to you.
______________________________________________________________________________________________

So long as it is calibrated and meaningful, I will be more than happy. Blue skies. :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Indranil »

Rahul Shukla wrote:
Singha wrote:Jodhpur - hmph! ... should have been hashimara + guwahati. 66% china: 33% pakis...
Per Dassault, only four C-130's (not the extended J's, mind you) need undertake but one flight each to transport all equipment and spares necessary to operate a squadron of 20 Rafales for 30 days. Rafales will fly to where they are needed, whenever they are needed.
Source please.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

sounds a bit too good to be true, but we never know how 'expeditionary' things have become lately...engines must be super reliable to run at war sortie rates without needing spare engines.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rahul Shukla »

indranilroy wrote:Source please.
Singha wrote:sounds a bit too good to be true... engines must be super reliable...
indranilroy / Singha,

Pls refer to page 3, column 2 of this official Dassault publication (pdf): Fox Three. Fact is that Rafales can deploy to Hashimara and/or Guwahati within hours if necessary, "piss process and sikularism" notwithstanding. Regarding M88 engines, per Dassault (not in the link provided):
In an effort to reduce costs of ownership, the M88 has been designed with ease of maintenance in mind. The engine comprises 21 modules, interchangeable without a need for balancing and re-calibration. Some of these modules can even be changed without removing the engine from the airframe, and a M88 can be replaced in less than an hour. After maintenance, there is no need to check the turbofan in a test bench before it is installed back on the aircraft. M88 reliability is such that, even for sustained combat operations, only limited quantities of spare parts and spare engines are required.

"When introducing into service such an advanced engine, you have to be very cautious at first", explains Jacques Desclaux. "For the M88, we have selected new technologies such as powder metallurgy, and we want to be certain that problems do not appear. This is why the engine initially had to be inspected every 150 hours, but in January 2001 this interval was raised to 500 hours, corresponding to roughly two/three years of operational use. As experience builds up, it will be progressively extended to 800 hours or 1,000 hours, depending on the components. In comparison with the Rafale, when the Mirage 2000 entered service, the M53 had to be checked every 75 hours."
I'm summarizing my findings about Rafale based on ~250 pages of reading material and will post in a few days.
Last edited by Rahul Shukla on 16 Feb 2012 13:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Thank you!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kersi D »

pandyan wrote:and a good way to improve local e-con-mi. New and improved bases would bring lot of new jobs and employment for the locals.
But getting hundreds of acres of land would involve a lot of local / state level politics.

K
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kersi D »

srai wrote:
Kersi D wrote: Where ? Ambala ? Halwara ? Gwalior ? Kalaikunda ? Bhuj ?

Remember that a few years ago ACM Fali Major had said that all the air bases will be developed such that any aircraft can be based at any base.
Answer is Ambala, Jodhpur and Hasimara. Yes, a lot of bases will have some level of infrastructure to support all types in the IAF service. However, only the main operating bases will have the full infrastructure (as pointed out in the article you are refering) to support a specific type, such as the Rafale or Su-30MKI. When the IAF deploys a fighter type to other bases for short durations, it will use its transport planes to also move the necessary support equipment/parts and personnel for that fighter type to support operations for that deployment duration.

IAF has already identified Ambala and Jodhpur airbases in the western sector, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector, to house the first MMRCA squadrons.
...
[/quote]

I though the Gwalior was decided as one of the bases.

I think Jodhpur has / will get SU 30MKI. I would not like to put both the frontline aircraft on a single base

K
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by pragnya »

Raf Khan wrote:I think i would have gone for only 2-seaters for the first batch of 18 fly-away a/c, in order to train as max pilots as we can, the sooner as possible.
isn't it a 'parallel' process (post contract signing) where batches of IAF pilots will be training on the Raffys in France and taking over the inducted ones??

.............

btw was this interview posted??

http://www.surlering.com/article/articl ... -de-rafale
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

jodhpur is a huge shakina kind of base. hashimara is not big enough to scare nepal even.
someone needs a huge dose of civil construction.

a single scrawny Mig27 on tarmac and some half dozen wrecked chassis of Mig23 inside a couple revetments to warn the PRC that if they dare step across we will come after them ... and unleash 2 full pods of rockets from the Mig27 :rotfl: :((

and on top of that the eastern side of runway abuts a shallow looking river...the kind that is prone to flooding and changing course.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Badar »

Singhaji, Massive fleet wide airbase revamps are in the works. As part of MAFI-I Hashimara will receive expanded, resurfaced, night ops capable runways. This is in addition to TACAN, DME, ILS nav aids etc, air control systems and integrated comm systems allowing all weather/adverse weather flying. The meteorological station being setup at each base will hopefully give adequate warning of incoming floods :)

A bunch of airbases and ALGs in NE and specifically Arunachal Pradesh are part of the modernization plan.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by neerajb »

pragnya wrote:btw was this interview posted??

http://www.surlering.com/article/articl ... -de-rafale
Rafale is looking just like Tejas TD (including the tailfin paint scheme) in the pic with Mirage-2000 :wink:

Remove the canards and most won't be able to recognize one from the other.

Cheers....
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by chackojoseph »

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Gurneesh »

neerajb wrote:
pragnya wrote:btw was this interview posted??

Rafale is looking just like Tejas TD (including the tailfin paint scheme) in the pic with Mirage-2000 :wink:
...
That is a M4000. Tail fin is curved at the root and also there are canards.

Image
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nachiket »

Gurneesh wrote:
That is a M4000. Tail fin is curved at the root and also there are canards.
And two engines.. :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Khalsa »

^^^ the french F-15 ;-)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Prem »

The Indian Air Force Faces Significant Challenges In Modernizing Its Antiquated Air Force
STRATFOR
http://stratfor.com/analysis/limits-mod ... z1maQQ0Qsb
France's Dassault Aviation announced late last month that it had won a bid to supply India with 126 Rafale fighters over the next decade. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has recently taken a series of steps to upgrade and improve its capabilities. However, until it resolves a number of underlying issues, the IAF will continue to face significant limitations.In addition to the MMRCA competition, the IAF has launched the "Super 30" program, which will see the upgrading of 40 Su-30MKI fighters with new radars, electronic warfare systems and BrahMos missiles. The IAF has also invested almost a billion dollars in modernizing its MiG-29s to the multi-role MiG-29UPG variant. Furthermore, the IAF finalized a deal in July 2010 to upgrade its French Mirage-2000 aircraft to the Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 variant, and in January 2012 it decided to purchase 490 MICA air-to-air missiles for the Mirages.Beginning in 2020, the IAF plans to induct 250-300 PAK-FA stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft, which are currently being jointly developed with Russia, but remain in a very preliminary stage of development. At a cost of around $35 billion dollars, the project is expected to be India's most expensive defense project ever. With these future purchases, the IAF is expected to grow to 42 squadrons by 2022, about 10 more squadrons than are currently in the IAF. By comparison, Pakistan is believed to have fewer than 20 fixed-wing combat squadrons.In addition to the modernization and improvement of its fixed-wing fighter fleet, the IAF is also seeking to improve its transport and aerial-refueling tanker force. As of February 2011, the IAF operated six IL-78MKI tankers, but with its growing number of squadrons and force projection needs, the IAF in 2010 initiated the Multi-Role Tanker Transport competition for an approximately $2 billion contract to provide the IAF with another six tankers. The IAF is also improving its transport fleet, with a $4.1 billion deal signed in June 2011 for 10 American C-17 Globemaster IIIs. The IAF had signed an approximately $1 billion deal for six C-130J transports in 2008, and it is currently seeking to purchase six more aircraft of the same type.An even more serious development is that, due to the shortage of trainer aircraft, the IAF has cut down flying time for new pilots to one-third of the usual rate (25 flight hours of basic training instead of the usual 75). By comparison, the U.S. Air Force offers more than 100 flight hours of basic training to its cadets. The number of basic training hours had reportedly dwindled even lower over the past two years but has now been stabilized thanks to better management of resources. One of the ways the IAF has sought to maximize its training fleet is to train some of its pilots on MiG-21 trainer variants
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nachiket »

Singha wrote:jodhpur is a huge shakina kind of base. hashimara is not big enough to scare nepal even.
someone needs a huge dose of civil construction.
Jodhpur apparently, has no less than 7 IAF squadrons deployed there including 4 fighter squadrons (3 Mig-27 and 1 Bison). Perhaps the IAF is planning to convert one of the Mig-27 squadrons to the Rafale when it starts coming in.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

Maharajhpur AFS @ Gwalior could have been a good choice, considering the Mirage 2000 is based there. It is also pretty deep inside India, compared to Jodhpur. Satellite bases can definitely be Jodhpur, Hashmira or wherever else...but the main base of operations could have been Gwalior. Like in the case of the Rambha's home base being Lohegaon AFS. They could house the Rafale simulators at Gwalior as well. Move the M2Ks elsewhere.

Gwalior is also home to TACDE (Tactics & Air Combat Development Establishment). Would have a good place to fine tune Katrina's doctrine, as the best of IAF's combat pilots are based there. The Rambha is also based at TACDE in Gwalior for that purpose. See below;

PHOTOS: New Runway At Air Force Station Gwalior, Su-30s Added To Base
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/ph ... ation.html
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nachiket »

I was hoping for an exclusive Rafale-only home base like what Lohegaon is for the MKIs and Gwalior for the M2ks. 8)
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