Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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nash
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nash »

shyamd wrote:Hearing news that IAF just upped Rafale order to 189 - up from the original number. earlier there was debate about the split order but now looks like IAF wants Rafale
Its a chai wala news or its in media, link will be very helpful
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

shyamd wrote:Hearing news that IAF just upped Rafale order to 189 - up from the original number. earlier there was debate about the split order but now looks like IAF wants Rafale
where did this come from
is the current discussion for 126 going on too good and so they increased the number or the French suggested that for 100% tech + other classified tech 8) ...we need to buy additional number of aircrafts .....

BTW what is the source of the info please
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by S.Abhisheik »

http://news.malaysia.msn.com/business/i ... s-source-2

Same speculation in media as well. Reads more like a plant.
shyamd
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shyamd »

AFP is carrying the story
member_23694
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

shyamd wrote:AFP is carrying the story
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... ces-318901

but i never understand how is it feasible for 189 such fighter to cost only $18 billion including life cycle cost.
possibly only for aircraft and lots of extra $$$$ for brimstone , meteor , Storm Shadow etc
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nash »

If it is true then possibly more workshare(no. of aircraft) will go to Dassault/Reliance.

No doubt Relaince has active lobby or insider in GoI.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

nash wrote:No doubt Relaince has active lobby
Only request to Reliance would then be that being an Indian company, against the additional 63 aircraft extract as much
critical tech as possible for the motherland from Dassault and work towards making India a force to reckon with in
area of aerospace technology which unfortunately HAL has not been able to do till now.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

It would be a death knell to Indian private aerospace manufacturing if reliance screw this up!
nash
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nash »

I don't think they would if they get this.

Because MA has been said that he is not much interested in oil/gas any more,already lost telecom to his bro, and trying to diverse to other sectors ...

It is the case of relaince(If i remember they already in talk with raytheon also), they are not afford to make any mistake, forget blunder, in this case.Beacuse it would open the billion $ market for them not only in india but also outside.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20067 »

SaiK wrote:It would be a death knell to Indian private aerospace manufacturing if reliance screw this up!
As if HAL never screwed anything up.....
tushar_m

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by tushar_m »

see everyone was expecting raffy orders to go up by 63 , its good that MoD & GoI are thinking about that now during initial negotiations.

a hard order of 189 will definitely lower the per unit cost as compared to order of 126 with possibility of 63.

Also the operating cost ,maintenance cost & unit cost will be included in 18 billion$$ .

The cost for 189 *(6-8 BVR+4-6 WVR ) = 1890(min) or 2646(max) no. of missiles will be extra.(assuming these many missile's are required in lifetime of 30+ years per unit fighter).

that's just for A2A ,there will be large number of Air to surface & HARM type missiles will also be required , maybe some air launched cruise missile.???
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by koti »

An industry expert said the time lag reflected India's request for two-seater jets rather than the one-seater model that Dassault currently produces.
Link
I thought IAF was interested in single seater recently. Weren't there news that IAF was looking at more single seater AC for FGFA too.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

Prithwiraj wrote:
SaiK wrote:It would be a death knell to Indian private aerospace manufacturing if reliance screw this up!
As if HAL never screwed anything up.....
They are not private. It is a different ball game altogether here.. pl note, this is not civil space they are dealing with. what is their expertise on building such advanced engineering products? Tatas are better placed than reliance imho. please substantiate why they would not screw up here?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by JTull »

It may that the first 18 will all be 2-seater. If we're going to get 10 squadrons of these then better to get the training program up and running quickly. IAF has recent experience with SU-30Ks which were flogged but got several squadrons operational quickly. A full SQN of 2-seaters helps a lot.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sagar G »

SaiK wrote:Tatas are better placed than reliance imho. please substantiate why they would not screw up here?
If engineering capability is the only parameter required to qualify then L&T is the 800 pound Gorilla here but even L&T would fail here for lack of experience. We like it or not but HAL is India's best bet at this point of time.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Aditya G »

Is chance that the additional aircraft are for the navy?
SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

can't be. IN would prefer LCA-N over Rafale-M, unless Rafale-M courts the up-thrusted Kaveri. IN supports LCA like no other force in desh.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by srin »

nash wrote:If it is true then possibly more workshare(no. of aircraft) will go to Dassault/Reliance.

No doubt Relaince has active lobby or insider in GoI.
On the contrary, this means that MoD has got everything it wanted. And as a carrot to mollify, it is exercising its options now for the additional planes - which it would most probably done it anyway later.

Offering bigger orders in order to squeeze in volume discounts (and to squeeze the supplier on unit cost) is a time tested procurement tactic.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SagarAg »

Tareek pe Tareek pe Tareek...when will the deal get signed..when will it get INKED!! :mrgreen: :roll:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

Tactic is fine, but do we have the budget? I read a cut of 10k cr recently.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by JohnTitor »

Sagar G wrote:
SaiK wrote:Tatas are better placed than reliance imho. please substantiate why they would not screw up here?
If engineering capability is the only parameter required to qualify then L&T is the 800 pound Gorilla here but even L&T would fail here for lack of experience. We like it or not but HAL is India's best bet at this point of time.
If we continue on t his path, HAL will always be the only best bet.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

The alternative is not replacing a 50 year old expertise with zilch yuppy company. It requires graduation. HAL still needs to be the integrator. Reliance has long way to go, but having reliance do it all means, Dassault is playing the fool.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sagar G »

Shonu wrote:If we continue on t his path, HAL will always be the only best bet.
If pvt. companies start TODAY then 15 or 20 yrs. down the line they might be in a position to carry the burden of Indian aerospace requirements. There are no shortcuts to this. They have to put in the money, burn tons of money in R&D, be patient and also burn there hands in bad investments, after going through such trial by fire only can any pvt. company dream of becoming an aerospace giant. We need a JRD now.

HAL has to do the hand holding in the initial stages and act as a responsible big brother.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

Even a multi-billionaire JRD would not help in systems and processes. RT Systems and Critical Safe Product Development and Engineering is not management. This is not lalloo turf to play around... like happens in desh.. a long time trusted mason becomes a super duper civil engineer. Not in aero-space.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sagar G »

JRD is not known for his engineering skills but his leadership and that's what India is lacking in multiple fields hence the grim situation we face often.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Sagar G wrote:If pvt. companies start TODAY then 15 or 20 yrs. down the line they might be in a position to carry the burden of Indian aerospace requirements. There are no shortcuts to this.
If we were talking about designing an airplane from scratch, perhaps.

But for copying an assembly line, no, it doesn't take anywhere near that amount of time.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

IMHO, we have plenty of leadership folks who are not been giving the right position due to non-merit based and/or non-capitalistic mindset. We can't blame the people who have been subdued and suppressed by a regime/setup since independence.

We have the men, material and money (MMM). But, you can't make this happen. Management can come only after Engineering the product. Managing men alone will not get you anything. It is in the process, system development and life-cycle management of these advanced systems. Leadership is just one speck of a requirement here.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sagar G »

GeorgeWelch wrote:If we were talking about designing an airplane from scratch, perhaps.

But for copying an assembly line, no, it doesn't take anywhere near that amount of time.
I'am done with copying, deep ToT, screw drive manufacturing and related BS vomited by foreign aerospace companies. Only original ideas from now on because only then the real knowledge can be gained. India has created enough talent and a tech base through LCA and yes also by doing screw driver manufacturing as well. It's time to start utilizing that now.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sagar G »

SaiK wrote:IMHO, we have plenty of leadership folks who are not been giving the right position due to non-merit based and/or non-capitalistic mindset. We can't blame the people who have been subdued and suppressed by a regime/setup since independence.

We have the men, material and money (MMM). But, you can't make this happen. Management can come only after Engineering the product. Managing men alone will not get you anything. It is in the process, system development and life-cycle management of these advanced systems. Leadership is just one speck of a requirement here.
I am not arguing with rest of your points but agree with it. I am only saying that we need a strong leadership so that rest of the pieces fall in place. Example - Modi, need I say more :mrgreen:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Vivek K »

Based on toilet the GOI is "mulling" a "huge" increase in the Rafael order!! Can GOI please at least "place" an order for at least "1" Rafael instead of doing "extra mulling" to now delay the entire order further!!!!!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

You heard it in the news a week back that they would only finalize it after the first quarter. Now, how come you are getting irritated with the time consumed for this.. like we all discussed a few pages back, that this process is way too huge to cut short.. not possible, and the reason I was voting for a 2 year purchase policy.. if funds are not purchased within two years, goner! , but you would still have that as budgeted for next 2 years with pro-rated increase per union budget.

Sagar G, you need to modi-fy your thoughts towards process, system, life-cycle and products, and engineering & management rather. Your example is non sequitur to the subject in discussion. Leadership does not give this, but only can help in formulating it. Not the leadership in your example, can help build these. At the most, he can be nodding to funds, failures and success definitions. that is all, and perhaps project chartering and 50k level risk management. After that, he would have no control at all in reality.

It is with the hands of people like you, me and others Engineers and workers who need to think a lot for the future, and ask for change in budgeting, management, organizations, etc.. so that we can get engaged to produce world class orgs.
Last edited by SaiK on 18 Jan 2013 08:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Victor »

srin wrote:this means that MoD has got everything it wanted. And as a carrot to mollify, it is exercising its options now
If by "mollify" you mean "bribe" Dassault to ignore a stated concern about HAL's capability to deliver, it would be a very irresponsible thing to do on MoD's part and even more irresponsible for Dassault to accept. Let's hope this isn't the case. More likely, the realization has come (it is late but it has come) that LCA is not coming anytime in the next two decades.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

livefist. probably the french trying to lock in our money vs more MKIsuper30/Su35BM/more PAKFA as these extra options will be delivered not before 2022...at a time when MKI will be going through MLU and PAKFA should be entering FOC stage.

with Snecma not being in AMCA engine project, thats a few billion capex and lifecycle lost to france ...


---------------
Wire agency reports today suggest Dassault Aviation and the French government are looking to persuade the Indian government to immediately exercise options for 63 additional Rafale fighters over and above the 126 it looks to contract as part of the MMRCA acquisition.

A proposal of sorts was raised by the French when India's foreign minister Salman Khurshid visited Paris last week.

------
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Vipul »

The french are extracting /ensuring maximum possible returns in exchange for giving TOT.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nash »

i think 189 makes for the 10 Sqd. and remaining 9 wiil be used for extensive training, just like we did to Su-30.

AFA is inking is concern, i think it is on time, there is one article from TOI and Economic Times last year, where it was written that first aircraft would come around 2016-17 after 3 years of sigining and by 2017-18 HAL start producing 6 and later upgraded to 20/year.

So it very much on time, march 31 2013 is deadline and after that there is not much time left for this government before election so it should be inked before that deadline or atmost I half of this year.

I would say if 189 is the final number then by 2025 we would have 10 strong sqd of Rafale , just II to the french AF.

And this would help to get 55sqd. for IAF , required for 2-front war.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20453 »

189 Rafales including weapons will finally comes for around $30 billion or around 160 million a piece, very hefty price for a 4.5 gen aircraft. Also not sure if this full-tot song will finally happen, at this price they better release full-tot. The french right now cannot afford to screw about. No way this order is completed by 2025. Rafale line is crawling at a slow rate of 11 aircraft per year, reduced from 14 per year. SH international makes more sense everyday, it will be around 40 million cheaper per aircraft including ample weapons. Raffy deal needs to be cancelled.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

The realisation has dawned upon the UPA scamsters that a third UPA term is very much in doubt.therefore,completing as many deals as poss. (for obvious reasons) before the axe falls is the ambition of the UPA coterie.Hence the sudden awakening to the nation's defence decision making!
The extra Rafales are also going to come in at cost more than an SU-30MKI,a superior aircraft of which we are going in for more to replace aging MIG-27s,MIG-21s,Jaguars,etc.The LCA MK-2 is nowhere on the horizon,and numbers also do matter.

What is intriguing is that Salman-the-Kursed ,who vowed to "give his life for Soniaji",was deputed for the task of informing the French first,instead of AKA.As said before,echoing the uUS Navy chief,"bomb trucks (with stand-off weaponry) can do the job just as well as expensive luxury cars".In fact,if the order is to be increased to almost 200 aircraft,which it will reach in time for replacements,etc.,the cost per unit at this initial negotiating stage fro finalising the contract,should actually come down,not go up!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Why is it, in 2013 nonetheless, PEOPLE still make the argument that the MKI is cheaper than the Rafale, therefore ........................?

The two are NOT comparable because they technically are not in the same weight class!!!

Politics and corruption be damned, but they are for a different thread, different issue.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sagar G »

SaiK wrote:Sagar G, you need to modi-fy your thoughts towards process, system, life-cycle and products, and engineering & management rather. Your example is non sequitur to the subject in discussion. Leadership does not give this, but only can help in formulating it.


I am saying the same thing only.
SaiK wrote:Not the leadership in your example, can help build these. At the most, he can be nodding to funds, failures and success definitions. that is all, and perhaps project chartering and 50k level risk management. After that, he would have no control at all in reality.
Without a strong leader at the helm of affairs all your engineering and scientific talent will only go to waste as can be seen in current Indian setup. That's why I am rooting for a strong leader not only in the corridors of power but also in our R&D organizations and remember we need to have both of them at the same time cause in our setup nothing can be done before political bosses don't nod. Some programmes like ATV, IGMDP have received the required backing but by and large our political leaders have no vision regarding the scientific prowess in India. I agree that after signing the amount and giving the go ahead the political boss has minimal control over any programme but here even obtaining that signature is a journey in itself.
SaiK wrote:It is with the hands of people like you, me and others Engineers and workers who need to think a lot for the future, and ask for change in budgeting, management, organizations, etc.. so that we can get engaged to produce world class orgs
You think these things are not being asked for ?? They are, but since our system has political overlords things always move at a snail's pace.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Katare »

Philip wrote: The extra Rafales are also going to come in at cost more than an SU-30MKI,a superior aircraft of which we are going in for more to replace aging MIG-27s,MIG-21s,Jaguars,etc.
:eek:

The truth is that Russian weapons are almost always more expansive than comparable western weapons. They lost Tanker deal to Europe and Both Helicopter deals to Americans because Russian weapons were more expansive.


Love for mother Russia makes sons of India blinder than it's own sons. :lol:

For these people MKI, Brahmos and T-90s are the best solutions for all of India's defense requirements on air, land or water.
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