Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Rakesh
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

Sent you PM. Will provide mithai above & beyond what was already delivered :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

check email.

Funny, found a PM from Ramana from the 123 days!!!!!!!!!! :)

Over n out.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

Did you reply atleast now!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by sooraj »

Aussies’ modest proposal: Sell us F-22s, mate

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/02/09/aussi ... -22s-mate/

New Delhi is a complicated place, and there were probably multiple reasons for the decision. But here’s one factor that hasn’t been reported. India made three different requests for information to the U.S. government over the last several years about sea-based versions of the F-35, and somehow nobody in Washington ever managed to answer any of them. Not surprisingly, the Indians eventually went away, but the lack of a U.S. response can’t have made a good impression.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

So, from the above... arthuro link,

Eurofighter is expensive than JSF by $5-10M (compared against the new price of $80M - which I guess is the quoted price for IAF). And going by the $5M cheaper Rafale, being at $75M is still more expensive than $73M JSF!!!

what is going on in the pricing and placing?.. chew masters knows where it is hard and hot.

So, all it takes is one slammer for Rafale with MoD, and JSF will ensure EF will not get it too.

As good as re-tender. Perhaps, IAF should deal with L1 by a new rule.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by sarabpal.s »

Rahul M wrote:arthuro, any comments about rafale's supposed lack of 2-way datalink wrt the meteor ?
This video clear the doubt about two way datalink IMHO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8KOPzL ... ata_player
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Ganesh_S »

Rakesh wrote:

That table in his article is hilarious. F/A-16 Super Hornet! Really?

And check out this gem about the SHornet. "A customised variant with high-level aircrew situational awareness, rejected in favour of the Typhoon and Rafale." WOW!!! :roll:

Rakeshji, atleast we wouldn't hear him whining about F 35 not being considered anymore. For the time being he seems to have accepted the fact that india has settled down with Rafale.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Anant,the intention was not to rate the French tech or TOT higher than the US,it was to illustrate who was willing to provide such tech which would give it a distinct advantage in the aircraft deal.The French and Brazilians have already signed a deal whereby France is to help them build N-boats.At least that is what is stated openly.However,some sources have different viewpoints about the deal.

(http://en.mercopress.com/2011/11/26/wha ... -submarine)
So what are the Brazilians up to? A clue comes from a US academic.

Wendy Hunter, a University of Texas researcher who writes about the Brazilian military, recalled attending a Navy presentation to the Brazilian Chamber of Deputies in the early 1990s, when the subject of nuclear propulsion was discussed, in which the naval officer testifying said that the acquisition of a nuclear sub (presumably the engineering and logistics) might be more important for Brazil than actually owning one.

This view gained further credence two years ago when the Brazilian government issued a “clarification” of the reasons for pursuing the contract with France. Of the five submarines to be built with French assistance, each in turn will have a greater Brazilian contribution, ending with the fifth vessel, which will be nuclear-powered. “On the contract with France,” the Brazilians declared, “the national content index reaches 20%, representing the production in Brazil of more than 36,000 items for the submarine, including complex systems, in addition to the transfer of technology to domestic companies. There are already more than thirty approved Brazilian companies, and several others are in the process of qualification.” In the final portion of the Brazilian declaration, the possibility of yet another technological transfer, giving nuclear propulsion to Brazil’s civilian fleet, is only hinted at, but seems clear.

“The project will also allow the transfer of vital dual-use technologies which will further increase the competitiveness of Brazilian industry,” the statement read, “which is integrated more and more into the national strategy of development.” Russia, Britain, the U.S. and Germany have all tried nuclear propulsion in non-military shipping, with limited success. Recently, China’s Cosco shipping line has proposed using nuclear propulsion in its vessels. One of the likely routes, according to the industry-supported World Nuclear Association, is South America to Asia.

Which doesn’t mean Brazil doesn’t have defence needs. A recent paper by Oxford’s Centre for Brazilian Studies says that despite a longstanding rivalry with Argentina, Brasilia’s military leaders were genuinely shocked by the ease with which Argentina was defeated in the Falklands War. The lesson which the Brazilians apparently took away from the war was the importance of submarines, as evidenced by the British torpedoing of the Argentine warship General Belgrano, and the Argentine’s costly use of submarines, as a feint, before launching devastating air attacks against British warships.

Nuclear reactor-powered subs are able to go as long as ten years without re-fuelling, and can stay underwater for weeks or months at a time. While naval experts may describe submarines generally as a “poor man’s weapon,” providing “a lot of bang for the buck,” that may not be the case with the nuclear variety. They are expensive and also complicated to run. In the 1960s the US lost two nuclear subs in five years, the USS Thresher and USS Scorpion, with their entire crews, in underwater explosions that have never been completely explained. The Russians have also experienced a series of mishaps culminating with the loss eleven years ago of the Kursk and her crew of 118.

An article in Der Spiegel earlier this year described the Brazilian effort to build a nuclear sub as a Trojan horse of a different kind—a cover for the real effort to build a nuclear bomb.
Whatever the truth in these reports,it is quite clear that the Franco-Brazilian relationship is deepening and a decision to buy the Rafale will only strengthen it further.Brazil is getting from France what it cannot get elsewhere,esp. from the US of A.

PS:Britain's decision to send to the Falklands a nuclear sub in the current tensions with the Argies,and the impotence of the Argies to counter it-they are now protesting the sending of the sub to the UN,underlines the strategic importance of possessing a N-sub and to "project power", apart from the obvious capabilities in defence.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shukla »

The air force gets its ideal platform
One of the most discussed subject in global strategic circles during the past few years was the proposed purpose of the Indian Air Force’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The sheer volume of purchase: 126 fighter aircraft at a speculated $18 billion was sufficient for the opening of the floodgates to intense competition. Also, since day one various motivations and implications were being linked to the entire process of finalising and procuring the aircraft.

Now, with the selection of the French firm, Dassault, as the preferred bidder for its Rafale fighter aircraft, a fresh debate has started to check the possibility of any ‘opaqueness’ in the entire deal.

It is important to appreciate that this was one of biggest major military purposes by India in the post-Bofors era. During the 1980s and 1990s much controversy arose over the purchase of Swedish 115mm Field Howitzers guns. The evidence of corruption that was unearthed created a permanent environment of suspicion over all defence deals. What exacerbated it were the preconceived notions, the self-serving perceptions on what is right and what is wrong for India’s defence promoted by arms dealers’ lobbies which individuals in government, academia and media covertly represent.

There was significant debate on the latest purchase within the country and without, but the discourse lacked strategic and technological appreciation about the proposed areal platform. The few technology based arguments put forward were found to be short on holistic appreciation of the entire process of selection. Often, selective us of data was done to either prove or disprove a point. The biggest opinion maker in this country, the media (both print and electronic) was mainly found projecting this story more as just another juicy morsel than one concerning the security of the country. Hence, even after the Rafale was declared a winner,  the attempt was found to ‘discover’ flaws in the system. It appears that many journalists were actually waiting for their “Tehelka moment”.

The entire process of the selection of this aircraft was very complicated, tedious and time consuming. As per the available information in the public domain no choice of any particularly make of aircraft was projected at any point in time. It is important to note that Dassault Rafale is a Generation 4.5 fighter and so were the others that were considered.

The Rafale is a versatile jet which has recently flown bombing missions in Libya and Afghanistan. Contemporary warfare demands aerial platforms which are not only fast and highly agile but also fitted out with state of art avionics. Other important aspects for selection of an aircraft require a full satisfaction with its maintenance schedule and easy availability of spares.

As an important component of national power, IAF has a well defined task. It has to protect India’s security interests extending from the Persian Gulf to the Straits of Malacca. It is important to note that IAF needs to remain prepared to fight a conflict either with Pakistan or China. If two-front war (both Pakistan and China simultaneously) becomes a reality, then IAF would have an extremely important role to play as it is a force with a transoceanic reach.

India is a nuclear weapon state and IAF is an important constitute of country’s nuclear triad. Over the years India has moved beyond the memory of 1962 when IAF was not used due to the fear of conflict escalation. In the 21st century the story is a bit different. In modern conflict, air power would remain an important constituent to address both conventional and asymmetric threats.

IAF is upgrading its combat aircraft fleet for the past few years to enhance its operational capability. We are in an era where collateral damage in warfare has become taboo. Civilian casualties even during war are no longer acceptable. The days of indiscriminate aerial bombing are over. Modern day weaponry includes the most accurate laser guided beyond visual range (standoff) weapons. GPS-guided bombs like joint direct attack munitions (JDAMs) are going to become a part of any modern day fighting force. It also needs to be

appreciated that IAF would not be fighting any battle alone and would be plugged-in along with other fighting arms of the Indian State. Network-centric warfare is the key for the modern day combat. To undertaken these tasks IAF need a mix of various aerial platforms.

Unfortunately, the procurement of this MMRCA fleet was seen by many as more of a tool to gain geopolitical advantages than actually fit the country’s air force with the best possible aerial platform to cater to India’s strategic and tactical needs. Luckily, the agencies involved in finalising this deal were kept away from all these pressures and did a professional job. Various aircraft industries bidding for their products were using various means to make their presence felt in India. The last few years saw a flurry of conferences held in India supported by the aerospace industries. Also, a suspicious number of new “defence magazines” have popped up and nobody doubts that these are backed by the financial muscle of arms lobbies and serve as their lobbying tools.

Uncle Sam, needless to say, is most active in this last-named area. Many hearts were broken when two European companies were finally shortlisted.  It is also important to note to the political fallouts of all these activities. It is probable that the US Ambassador lost his job and had to return home because he failed to deliver on the most important assignment — bagging the MMRCA deal for either Lockheed or Boeing or both.


For the recession-ridden economies of Europe and the United States, much was riding on the Indian MMRCA deal. Therefore, the foreign offices of these countries were applying much pressure on the Indian government’s approved vetting process. Yet, the entire selection process appears to have happened in a very orderly manner. This exhibits a case of healthy civil-military relationship where all defence and civilian agencies worked together for a common cause. The final decision was taken based on only two major counts: the quality of the project and the cost of the project. In a broader context, India has proved that the defence industry could also be a buyer’s market.

Globally, on various occasions it has been found that quality and the cost of the product are not the only criteria’s for defence procurements. Strategic and economic interests, pressures of bilateral relationships, political calculations, tension between public goods and private ends, corporate greed etc play a significant role in defence purchases. But the Rafale selection looks to be an extremely professional exercise and India was able to withstand various hidden pressures. All this clearly indicates the boost in India’s global standing which eventually made it possible for the state to take a decision on its own terms.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kashi »

I wonder what technologies we absolutely need that the French be willing to transfer?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

ramana wrote:Did you reply atleast now!
Haha. Yes, I had. Fat fingers. However check yahoo account please.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Kashi wrote:I wonder what technologies we absolutely need that the French be willing to transfer?
Re-qualify thermo. For sure.

On the Rafale front, I would like to categorize the needs into manufacturing (single crystal, engines, yada, yada, yada) and avionics (with a meaningful subset of their threat lib).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

France is a signatory to the Convention on Cluster Munitions(according to wiki), so I had a Question: Does the Rafale currently carry any Cluster Bombs(France itself dosen't make cluster bombs any more I suppose)? Will there be any problems if we try to integrate our own or 3rd party cluster munitions?
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An American Take on the India's Choice of the Rafale

Post by Jaybhatt »

Fellow BR members may like to read an American take on the Indian choice. The article is fairly objective, specially if we bear in mind the fact that the two American aircraft in the MMRCA race got eliminated in the early stages of the competition, after the IAF did its technical evaluation.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_reckonin ... ench_.html

The last line in the piece is most relevant : "One billion Indians—and $20 billion—can’t all be wrong."

It is obvious that the Brits. (the English actually, since the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish are considering how best to jump from the English bandwagon) are such bad losers. The Limeys have been whining pathetically ever since the Indian decision was announced. And their language is getting more obnoxious every hour. It is high time we told them to go for a jump. :lol:
Last edited by Rahul M on 11 Feb 2012 22:07, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: why do you colour code the links ? it kills the hyperlink. please leave it as it is.
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Re: An American Take on the India's Choice of the Rafale

Post by Badar »

Jaybhatt wrote:It is obvious that the Brits. (the English actually, since the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish are considering how best to jump from the English bandwagon) are such bad losers. The Limeys have been whining pathetically ever since the Indian decision was announced. And their language is getting more obnoxious every hour. It is high time we told them to go for a jump. :lol:
I think we don't need to react that much. The notoriously purple British press is distinct from the Government/BAe/Cassidian. They can say what they want (as does ours). Holding relations hostage to them is pointless. I think we should give a little rope to the british premier as well, his posturing is for his own voters and not really directed at us.

We should look at them, enjoy a moment of schadenfreude and walk away. Their tamasha is not worth getting worked up over.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Christopher Sidor »

I seriously have my doubts on the so called strategic-influence on this deal. Let us take the example of EFT. Some 4 european countries, which do not see eye to eye in many of the international issues.

On Libya, Germany abstained along with BRIC nations. In the European financial crisis, it is Germany and France which have cooperated more closely than Germany-Britain or France-Britain. There was even an unimaginable spectacle of certain prominent members of EFT consortium member nations asking Britain to refrain from preaching to the EURO-Zone nations. From such a motley group of countries what so called "strategic advantage" one could derive is at best questionable if not totally irrelevant to the deal.

This bogey of strategic advantage is sought to be created IMHO to push up the value of dubious wares like F-16IN or F-18 Super Hornet. We should be looking at the best fighter for our IAF requirements within our financial means.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shyamd »

FYI, Rafale was the most costliest in Libyan operations - $14k per hour.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Also says something about the Gripen NG design - they say its thrust/drag ratio is very good, and this performance might tend to support such a claim.
Saar, see this...from the Armasuisse Evaluation of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter in 2008. Just to give a backdrop of the Armasuisse....they are arguably among the best air-to-air combat pilots around. Guess being neutral and peace loving does have its advantages :)

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/11/ ... afale.html
"Rafale and Eurofighter showed generally better performance than the F/A-18, Gripen worse."

"The performance of the Gripen in air-air engagements as well as attack missions was insufficient."

"The most limiting factors of the Gripen design were the operating time, the flight performance and the maximum weapon load."


"The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications."
Yes Rakesh Garu, the Swiss AF eval makes sense, however, does not necessarily contradict my point - that the Gripen NG might have done better than the Super Hornet in the IAF tech eval. AFterall, the Swiss were pitting the contestants against the original F/A-18, which has a better flight performance than the Super Hornet, so the F/A-18 might beat the Gripen, however, the F-18E/F might not do so well.

Also, I think, and this is just mvho, that the Swiss rely heavily on close, WVR type A2A fighting since their airspace is so small. What will always do rather well here is birds like the MiG-29, and Hornet and Rafale, which have exceptional nose pointing and slow speed ability. Highspeed BVR performance might not mean much here - you probly get out of Swiss airspace in 1 minute flat if you go supersonic! Not surprisingly, even the fabled EF-2000 barely made it ahead of the F/A-18 in their evaluation.

The IAF otoh, will rely on both BVR, high speed and low/slow WVR, and I think that the Gripen NG will certainly get ahead of the F-16 blk 60 or Shornet in this area. It has a modest TWR (not unsimilar to the Shornet) but is less draggier by all accounts, and is supposed to have excellent transonic acceleration - even manages supercruise with a decent loadout iirc.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Badar »

"The most limiting factors of the Gripen design were the operating time, the flight performance and the maximum weapon load."
This is not a deal breaker as far as IAF goes. The Gripen is an outstanding bird (but for the US content) for the lower tier. Acquisition and OAS costs are its crucial parameters.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

The AdA Rafale training center in Saint Dizier: CFER (Centre de Formation des Equipages Rafale)

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9089 ... teurs2.jpg

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/921/simulateurs4.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7900/ba113013.jpg

The simulation centers are made by Sogitec, a division of Dassault.

http://www.sogitec.com/pdf/INTER24A/INTER24A.pdf
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

Badar wrote:This is not a deal breaker as far as IAF goes. The Gripen is an outstanding bird (but for the US content) for the lower tier. Acquisition and OAS costs are its crucial parameters.
What I'd really like to see is an LCA mk1 @ no more than 6 tons and a 9 ton engine. Would do beautifully imvho. Eagerly awaiting LSP 7, perhaps they have reduced the margins/overengineering some on this production variant.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Snehashis »

Rafale Partners with Reliance





New Delhi. Dassault Aviation has selected Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) as its private sector partner to manufacture the Rafale Combat jets in India.




Details are not known but Dassault confirmed the agreement with the Mumbai-based Mukesh Ambani-led Indian conglomerate. It was signed a week or so after the Government announced the Rafale as the winner in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) fray Jan 31.

In a statement, the French company said: Dassault Aviation, a major player in the global aerospace industry has entered into an MoU with Reliance Industries Ltd., India’s largest private sector company, for pursuing in strategic opportunities of collaboration in the area of complex manufacturing and support in India.

Dassault manufactures Rafale combat jets and Falcon business jets, and the proposed venture should foray into both these sectors.

Company sources also pointed out that much of the tooling and weapons of IAF’s Mirage 2000, which are being upgraded to Mirage 2000-5 standards, are common with those of the Rafale, and therefore it would be easier to absorb the new generation technologies, both in manufacturing and operations.

Authoritative sources told India Strategic that the two partners had also informed the Ministry of Defence (MoD).

Any such venture has to be cleared by the Government and several procedural and security clearances would be needed in due course as Reliance gets into the technology induction and manufacturing process.

As HAL is the lead integrator for the MMRCA project, the two companies will have to involve it also.

While in-principle approval for such collaborations already exists as per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), the Government has just cleared an important proposal permitting the Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) like HAL to forge partnerships with private sector companies to speed up technology induction as well as production of strategic systems for the armed forces.

RIL, already the top group in India, should become the biggest Indian player in combat jets and allied military systems.

Notably, RIL had inducted Boeing India’s former head for defence systems, Dr Vivek Lall, to lead a security and defence subsidiary. The intention apparently was to utilize the opportunities offered by India’s growing defence requirements, and the business that offsets would generate for the Indian industry.

Dr Lall, an Indian with US citizenship, has the distinction to have worked in the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the war systems US giant Raytheon and then the civil and military aviation world leader Boeing. He is credited as being one of the 2000 outstanding scientists in the entire world, and he was inducted as a Distinguished Fellow recently at the RIL-funded think tank, the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), apparently for initiating hi tech aviation studies.

The cash rich Reliance should infuse billions of dollars in its new partnership. There are timelines in the delivery of MMRCA, and this venture should be able to exceed the turnover of HAL within five years or so.

RIL has already gone into sophisticated Homeland Security systems to make cities secure, and signed agreements with Raytheon and German Siemens in this regard.

As per the terms of the Request for Proposals (RfP), issued by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2007, HAL will be the prime integrator for the selected aircraft. But the winning vendor would have the choice to go in for private or public sector companies, for the 50 per cent offsets commitments mandatory for the deal.

It may be recalled that there was a time when the defence industries were open only to the private sector. But gradually, there has been relaxation as the Indian private industry has been seeking a level playing field with public sector companies in defence manufacturing.

There has also been the inability of some of the Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) to stick to time lines due to persistent labour trouble, and in some cases poor workmanship resulting from seemingly innocuous but otherwise serious problems like tobacco addiction among employees. The armed forces have been looking at the private sector for quality and timely delivery assurances.

How the Dassault-Reliance venture proceeds will depend on the finalisation of the MoD’s negotiations over the acquisition of Rafale. The RfP is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more. But over the years, this number should go up to 300 as IAF is looking for 42 to 45 combat aircraft squadrons by 2022 or so.

Notably, IAF, Army and Navy also need transport aircraft. For instance, IAF is looking for replacements for about 60 of its very old Avro aircraft. The Dassault-RIL venture should also open the doors for production of transport aircraft in India.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Surya »

Notably, RIL had inducted Boeing India’s former head for defence systems, Dr Vivek Lall, to lead a security and defence subsidiary. The intention apparently was to utilize the opportunities offered by India’s growing defence requirements, and the business that offsets would generate for the Indian industry.

Dr Lall, an Indian with US citizenship, has the distinction to have worked in the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the war systems US giant Raytheon and then the civil and military aviation world leader Boeing. He is credited as being one of the 2000 outstanding scientists in the entire world, and he was inducted as a Distinguished Fellow recently at the RIL-funded think tank, the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), apparently for initiating hi tech aviation studies.

OMG does Shiv know about this!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

>> RIL-funded think tank, the Observer Research Foundation (ORF)

thats very interesting. when did this happen? the ORF had some decent stuff like exploring the hydra that is karachi terror groups. but the latest TOI hit piece in favour of Khan clearly shows where their intent is these days :mrgreen:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by sooraj »

India finalises contract with GE for 99 aircraft engines
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/226 ... ge-99.html

Admin Note: Please do not post articles without providing a source or link.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

SWISS TECHNICAL EVALUATION LEAKED :

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

RAFALE N°1 IN EACH CATEGORY OF TESTS
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Snehashis »

^^^ Typhoon excelled in "Aircraft Performance", "Engagement" and "Pilot Workload" category. No victory for Gripen.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Virupaksha »

arthuro wrote:SWISS TECHNICAL EVALUATION LEAKED :

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

RAFALE N°1 IN EACH CATEGORY OF TESTS
do the swiss use english for their internal communications? - interesting because english is not one of their official languages.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by chackojoseph »

Dassault Aviation and Reliance Industries ink MoU for security business

We have put up our perspective of the deal in last three para's.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rahul M »

Virupaksha wrote:
arthuro wrote:SWISS TECHNICAL EVALUATION LEAKED :

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

RAFALE N°1 IN EACH CATEGORY OF TESTS
do the swiss use english for their internal communications? - interesting because english is not one of their official languages.
Both are signed by the Chief of the Air Force and Markus Gygax were written in English ("The only way to be certain that Romands, Alemanni and Ticino to understand," says a senior.). Their authenticity is not disputed by the Swiss Air Force.
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... 2F13757863

pretty damning on the gripen.

The MS21 is the technical name of the Gripen E / F that the Federal Council intends to buy, as confirmed by the spokesman for the Air Force Jürg Nussbaum. It was only 5.33 points out of 10, well below the minimum limit of 6.0 determined at the beginning of the evaluation process. The Eurofighter and Rafale reached 6.48 6.98. Note the Gripen is mainly due to a reaction time for takeoff emergency too slow ("Quick Reaction Alert ': score 4.7), the flight performance inadequacy (5.5) and endurance largely insufficient ( 3.8).

For all these areas, the minimum score of 6.0 was set based on the capabilities of the F/A-18 Helvetic currently operated. In short: the new aircraft which intends to equip Switzerland from 2016 to 3.1 billion francs, and which must remain in service until at least 2035, will be less efficient than the F/A-18, which came service in 1997 and regularly updated.
Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

one could always see the saab NG marketing was trying to project a cougar as a lion. a cougar is ok in its own way, but it can never be called a lion. range and payload matter to us a great deal - esp vs the western bases where PAF will hide if given a smashmouth nose and in tibet/yunnan.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

STUNNING! The myth that the EF is better in A2A has been totally busted in the above report. The French knew what they were doing when they made that nose as small as it is - the RBE2/Spectra combo will be a heller to beat. Reminds me of the IAF bisons being a pain in the buttocks BVR, despite having a rather small radar size thanks to the EW suite! Go SPECTRA!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Jaybhatt »

Rahul M :

I am merely following what seems to be the prevalent practice in BR.

See the posts above by Arthuro, Philip, Sarabpal.s, Sooraj (to name a few) and many others.

I have no problem, at all, in leaving the link as it is. Just need a clarification.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

They have given better ratings for EF in A2A performance , also i wonder how a small nose will end up with better radar , a bigger nose means a radar with wider FoV as it can accommodate more T/R modules

via toan
Swiss AF gave very high scores for Typhoon's A2A flight performance (9 points, while 7 points for Rafale and 5.4 points for Gripen) and Pilot's workload (9 points, while 8 points for Rafale and 7.1 points for Gripen). Besides, Typhoon was also ranked as the best for engagement.
Any thing that says Typhoon is a better A2A performer will be treated with skepticism it deserves , considering the genesis of Typhoon has been to be a better A2A performer viz a viz Flanker threats.

Rafale is a better multirole fighter and that is what IAF needs ,doesnt matter what Typhoon is or not and Rafale is cheaper too ....so its the best deal for IAF.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kuldipchager »

<snip>
Last edited by Rahul M on 12 Feb 2012 21:24, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: incoherent.
Rahul M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rahul M »

Jaybhatt, they ARE leaving the url as it is. try it.
Cain Marko
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

Austin wrote:They have given better ratings for EF in A2A performance , also i wonder how a small nose will end up with better radar , a bigger nose means a radar with wider FoV as it can accommodate more T/R modules

via toan
Swiss AF gave very high scores for Typhoon's A2A flight performance (9 points, while 7 points for Rafale and 5.4 points for Gripen) and Pilot's workload (9 points, while 8 points for Rafale and 7.1 points for Gripen). Besides, Typhoon was also ranked as the best for engagement.
Any thing that says Typhoon is a better A2A performer will be treated with skepticism it deserves , considering the genesis of Typhoon has been to be a better A2A performer viz a viz Flanker threats.

Rafale is a better multirole fighter and that is what IAF needs ,doesnt matter what Typhoon is or not and Rafale is cheaper too ....so its the best deal for IAF.
Austin, that is A2A FLIGHT performance, ahem not "FIGHT" performance. Overall, A2A, Rafale detects and acquires earlier than the Typhoon even with the small nose cone, and even with the older PESA. Yes, I can imagine the Swiss were pretty impressed with the EF's flight performance though - exceptional TWR, and supercruise @ M1.4.

But this was well known - the EF is more powerful than the Rafale, also the Rafale's sensor's have been known to cause pilot overload thanks to too much info, iirc, the Adla at one point wanted more two seaters for this very reason. Arthuro could probly elaborate more.

What is surprising (NOT so much actually) though is that the Rafale handily was ahead on all overall A2A categories. IOWs, the Swiss are making it clear that the Rafale is likely to be the winner in an A2A fight between the two. Actually the results corroborate everything in the DACT exercises such as ATLC. The combo of a decent radar, smaller RCS and exceptional EW suite (active cancellation?) makes the Rafale v.potent in A2A.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

This say it all...

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