Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[SaiK]

I think that was not the discussion per my thoughts.. HAL management and production engineering need to advance, and there is no stepping back on this. How fast it can get there it all depends, and this is where private partnership can enhance. So, it is all in HAL's hand to be the lead integrator with the help from private industries. HAL expertise can't be replicated by private, nor anyone else current know how.

R&D shops are different and production setup is entirely different that would be aided by production engineering r&d.

[Katare]

..LCA is too small and MKI is 2 big and ...

So you mean to say that Rafale is the Goldilocks fighter? How so?

Hehehe, because it's not too hot and it's not too cool. it's just what Goldilock (IAF) likes "medium"

Who says so--->The IAF Doctrine (Light, medium and heavy). I don't think it is going to change any time soon

MKIs are 15 year old technology, they were once the best fighter in the world but now they need upgrades (10 years). Anyhow thy'll be too expensive to operate as compared to medium weight aircraft.

SaiK,

Someone has to crunch the numbers and it'll show that the best way to procure is the way it is being done now. Economy of scale, ToT, logistics will not support piece meal acquisitions.

[SaiK]

Sure Katare, but we need to see also that the delays in MMRCA makes no sense.. in the sense, it exceeds the cost and price reductions for all the things you listed. It has been a 10 year saga now, and definitely price increase happens every year.

[abhik]

So you mean to say that Rafale is the Goldilocks fighter? How so?

Hehehe, because it's not too hot and it's not too cool. it's just what Goldilock (IAF) likes "medium"

Who says so--->The IAF Doctrine (Light, medium and heavy). I don't think it is going to change any time soon

You have any proof that such a doctrine actually exists? When did it come into place? What are the roles that are entrusted to each class? Historically which fighters fulfilled these roles?
If I am not wrong before the MKI the IAF didn't even have heavy fighter. Also you may have disregarded the fact that the IAF invited the Saab Gripen which has specs that are very similar to the LCA, a fighter that's apparently "too light". In fact the IAF called every available fighter that was not a heavy(Because they already had the heavy MKI).
With increasing costs of developing and maintaining aircraft most large countries had settled on Hi-Lo combo. For example the USAF with the F-15 + F-16(and later the F-22 & F-35), the Russians with the Su-27 + Mig-29 and even the Chinese with their Su-27/Clone + J-10(Note they are not buying the "Light" Jf-17). A smaller country like France has taken a One-Size-Fits all route with the Rafale. So how come the IAF wants 3 classes of fighters. Do we have more resources these countries? The truth is that India never really made it own fighters which suite its doctrine, so it simply bought form others. And they often had very limited choices and little resources. So they took what they got given the circumstances in an ad hoc manner. That's how the IAF has ended up with a "zoo" of disparate fighters. In a way the MRCA is a continuation of the same. A lot of such motives such as "ToT to improve domestic industry", "need to fill the medium role" etc. are being added post facto. And the Rafale is going to be just another specimen in IAF's zoo, and I'm afraid a very expensive one.
BTW I remember the ACM(I forget which one) some time back that he wished the IAF had only one single type of fighter.

MKIs are 15 year old technology, they were once the best fighter in the world but now they need upgrades (10 years).

That makes no sense, fighters are constantly given upgrades to keep them at the cutting-edge through out their life-span. Manufacturers don't actually make "+0.5" generation models from ground up just to replace the current ones that have reached their half-life.

Anyhow thy'll be too expensve to operate as compared to medium weight aircraft.

Fuel is not the only thing that goes into operating cost.

[vishvak]

There more to this then delay. The way by which Indian defense forces has evaluated needs to be benchmarked as procedural criteria. In fact, the French should have been celebrating for free publicity since Rafael came on top through the whole process as well as use of fighter over time by IAF; so a few coins here and there and tech is relative for French.

[manum]

what about actually selling the first fighter to a foreign force?

there is no issue of publicity, not many are looking to buy fighters these days...or actually fight a war...they rather align with US or not....

[Katare]

abhik,
The type of questions you ask do not make sense to me so I would not answer to your specific questions any more. Salam!Piece!

Saik,

It it took 10 years to get to the end and you want to cancel it and start another 10 year saga? Remeber Artillary, Hawk, gorshkov etc. The deal may stink and look ugly in many ways but it still is the best way to move forward.

[Vipul]

The more the Russians, French and Britishers have screwed us in the deals (Gorshkov/T-90, Scorpene/Raffy and Hawk trainers respectively)the more one is convinced that FMS route with the Americans is the way to go.
TOT is something that was written in contract for all the above deals but still all the suppliers have either denied it or are denying it and supplying just CKD/SKD kits.Through FMS route atleast we get proven big ticket items on time every time.

[SaiK]

No, I am not asking them to take it another 10 year saga.. I am asking if a whole purchase process does not end with couple of years, then plan only for couple of years. I want a minimum turn around time for purchases. The world and technology is advancing so fast. [that 2 years is just for argument sake... actually it could differ.. but not anything greater than 3-4 years]

OTOH, if the whole game plan is about missing generation of technologies, then heck, our existing process fits the bill. But, it should serve some indic strategy like (DRDO/HAL raises up to be a top notch company on par with Saturn, LM or boeing). I am not seeing any such indicators, except certain DRDO labs.

Our whole problem here is production engineering. We need specific dedicated DRDO labs focusing on production engineering alone.

[Victor]

The deal may stink and look ugly in many ways but it still is the best way to move forward.

Even now, if we want an outstanding fighter system quickly and cheaply with significant transfer of technology the F-18 is the answer and IMO, is the one that gives the chinese and pakis the worst nightmares with its radar and weapons fit. But if we want the best-est, most chankian-est, chosen-by-cleanest-most-transparent-patentable-selection-process fighter, then we are indeed stuck with the Rafale for better or worse. The process was so clean and transparent that after more than a year, the fighter is still practically invisible.

[Singha]

Have to agree. The chinese have felt the heat of american weapons already via getting most of the cheen/rus type stuff knocked off easily in multiple wars and the belgrade embassy bombing issue. The hate them but fear them also.

American weapons are hard to beat on price n functionality.

[koti]

Even now, if we want an outstanding fighter system quickly and cheaply with significant transfer of technology the F-18 is the answer

Soundt tempting for now.
But that would directly mock the acquestion process. This will not be the last aircraft deal India will be acquiring, but it might be very well for competetive bidding and end user based selection process.

IAF, the end user clearely knows what it wants. And it clearely stated what it wants and what it doesn't want. I can't see what changes SH or Rafale have undergone from that timepoint to derive your opinion.

[NRao]

From Go Katrina to No Katrina?

What is all this music about F-18s and all?

[Victor]

I can't see what changes SH or Rafale have undergone from that timepoint to derive your opinion.

IAF did not have the opportunity to test the the F414EPE equipped SH with 20% more thrust because it was not available at the time. This is essentially the same engine we are buying for the LCA2 also. Just the savings in commonality would have been tremendous.

[Cosmo_R]

From Go Katrina to No Katrina?

What is all this music about F-18s and all?

It was all a Mirage

So we get to continue this MMMMRCA thread for another 10 years. Mirage2K>MMRCA>PAKFA>PAKDA>AMCA>PRANAB DA etc.

Funny if not tragic.

[Singha]

F-18 with 414 engine did not meet the Leh test criteria. new prototype EPE engines will need to be fitted and a F-18 flown in to complete the test, which I think it will pass with no problem. other than a lack of acceleration wrt to the eurocanards I cant think of anything the F-18 really lacks in.

- rugged undercarriage can help with high sink rates (faster landing cycle) and slightly sub-par tarmac
- marinized, indian heat and humidity should not be an issue because F_18 on carriers constantly rotate in the gulf region and far east
- Tejas mk2 would get the same engine, so back end repair depot can be common
- most mature aesa radar
- the best aam ( aim120-D)
- one of the best wvr aam (aim9x)
- choice SLAM-ER , JSOW, JASSM for long range strike
- without doubt the best family of A2G weapons incl SDB
- stealth weapon cansisters on the map
- one of the best EW/defensive suites
- huge assured funding for upg with 700+ hornets in USN
- it will also ensure we get steam cats for the INS Vishal and IN can get themselves 40 on their own

if we can get a good pkg, cheen will surely be crapping in their pants...they know what ameircan weapons and EW can do to their kit - make paratha and keema of it.

there could be strong suggestions we not use it against TSP, but then our political establishment has no intention of beating TSP up no matter if a jihadi nuke takes delhi or mumbai out. and we can use our 270 flankers to flatten the TSPAF, TSNPN and economy in around 3 weeks of intensive work.

[GeorgeWelch]

From Go Katrina to No Katrina?

What is all this music about F-18s and all?

I think there's a lot of built up frustration from the typical delays and disappointments in procurement lately, plus it's already been a long, drawn-out process just to get to this point.

Perhaps the contract will get signed before the end of the fiscal year in March and everything will go smoothly, but people are already seeing the signs yet another procurement fiasco.

As I understand it, the MRCA program had several goals:

1. Increase India's aerospace manufacturing experience by building the selected plane.
2. Increase India's knowledge base with Transfer of Technology.
3. Increase India's dwindling fighter fleet with something that's cheaper to buy and maintain than more MKIs.

Back when this was first conceived, the LCA was going to help fill in substantial numbers on the low end and China's best was a few bad Su-30 knockoffs. Since then the situation has changed. LCA (Mk II) is no longer imminent, China has been putting out advanced fighter designs at a dizzying rate, the only 'fresh blood' being added to the fleet is the heavy MKI with possibly the even heavier PAK-FA around the corner, and the economy has taken a turn for the worse.

Previously there was not a great rush, but as circumstances have changed, time has dwindled and the need for action has grown acute. In addition there is a greater need for frugality. How do you reconcile urgent needs with limited funds?

First of all I would propose decoupling the various goals of the MRCA program. Right now the top priority has to be to get a credible fighter. All the other concerns are dragging down progress. You see how the Kaveri project is becoming difficult, well the MRCA program envisions negotiating 10, 20, 100 other 'Kaveris' all at the same time. It becomes untenable and is a recipe for disaster.

Narrow your focus and do things one step at a time instead of trying to get everything all at once.

Now, how do you tackle the other goals? As far as improving manufacturing, HAL has been license building aircraft for 50 years, I'm not sure how one more plane is going to suddenly tip the balance and turn them into a global player. They are currently manufacturing the MKI, what more will they learn from another fighter?

For technology, I would say bid out each item you're interested in separately. There are several people who make AESA radars, several people who make fighter jet engines, etc. Yes it will cost money, but it certainly wasn't free with the MRCA package, it's just that it was all bundled into one big pricetag. Now at least delays in one area won't slow everything else down.

But I would also question the whole concept of 'Transfer of Technology' to begin with. If someone just gives you a recipe to follow, it might as well be a magical potion. Why did they say to do this but not this? You have no idea. You just blindly follow the steps and get your result. That's great, but then how do you take that next step to the future? When you actually develop something on your own, you have a much deeper understanding of what's going on that then enables you to expand it in new directions. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts to developing cutting-edge technology, just time and money.

Thus I would say scrap the current MRCA and refocus on just procuring a fighter that meets India's needs. India can no longer afford the time or the money it will take to try to do everything at once.

Now could India just order a bunch of Rafales direct from France?

Sure.

But I think this is where the SH really shines. Boeing can build far faster than Dassault, the SH is mature and ready to go immediately, the SH will be supported well into the future by the USN and most importantly, it is significantly cheaper.

If you're looking for a fast, reliable, no-drama workhorse that is amazingly versatile and yet affordable, the SH is your plane.

[srin]

Have to agree. The chinese have felt the heat of american weapons already via getting most of the cheen/rus type stuff knocked off easily in multiple wars and the belgrade embassy bombing issue. The hate them but fear them also.

American weapons are hard to beat on price n functionality.

The apache cost quoted is almost $1.4 for 22 choppers - almost $63m per chopper. That isn't cheap.

Price is complex - is it acquisition cost or life-time operating cost, which is extremely hard to calculate. See the problems the Brits with their Apaches - EOL'ed unless they pay up to upgrade !

Functionality too - how much of it is top of line, and how much of it is "export quality" ?

[viveks]

so far... the way the pattern is going...we are slowly maturing the su30 program by ordering more suz....building more experience with its equipment. Dassault is sceptical as to how much attention HAL facilities can be made available to properly absorb rafale tech and they are right on that point....so would any MMRCA vendor...lets c how fast they take this forward...

If we really needed the rafale in 2-3 yrs time...we would have signed the contract for the 18 in fly-away condition by now...not carried out a dance! Then worked out the TOT and local manufacturing details later...
Most of the french deals have run into a rough weather..look how far has scorpene come....I think the deal was signed by the then BJP gov.......I am thinking we will not reach far in this one either...these are all so called "myth deals" to me....for now...

[abhik]

From Go Katrina to No Katrina?

What is all this music about F-18s and all?

I think there's a lot of built up frustration from the typical delays and disappointments in procurement lately, plus it's already been a long, drawn-out process just to get to this point.

Perhaps the contract will get signed before the end of the fiscal year in March and everything will go smoothly, but people are already seeing the signs yet another procurement fiasco.
...

With the 10K Crore defence budget cut it is already a given that the contract wont be signed with in the current fiscal year. And next year is an Election year. With no guarantee of a dramatic economic bounce back and an ever increasing expenditure on "social welfare" projects the pressure on the defence budget will be on next year too. Now under the current circumstances the Ideal thing would be if the MoD and Armed Forces sit down and discuss their options and prioritize(Which IMHO includes the MRCA). What I am afraid will actually happen is that the deals with "Natasha Power"/"Moti Rakam" behind them will go through. And other possibly more important acquisition programs may fall by the way side.

[abhik]

abhik,
The type of questions you ask do not make sense to me so I would not answer to your specific questions any more. Salam!Piece!
....

You were defending the acquisition of the Rafale over a LCA+MKI combo by stating reasons such as the IAF having a Heavy/Medium/Light fighter doctrine. I just said that there is no evidence of this(Not that I have seen at least). I guess it is incumbent on you to defend your reasoning. Else one can assume that your argument was a concoction . Sorry it this topic was already discussed in the previous MRCA threads. Any ways, Cheers!

[member_20292]

First of all I would propose decoupling the various goals of the MRCA program. Right now the top priority has to be to get a credible fighter. All the other concerns are dragging down progress. You see how the Kaveri project is becoming difficult, well the MRCA program envisions negotiating 10, 20, 100 other 'Kaveris' all at the same time. It becomes untenable and is a recipe for disaster.


But I would also question the whole concept of 'Transfer of Technology' to begin with. If someone just gives you a recipe to follow, it might as well be a magical potion.

TOT is basically transfer of recipe, GeorgeWelch. It is not license assembly. It is a little more than that. It says, get this get that, mix it up and serve it hot and fresh. Different from SKD and CKD and screwdriver technology.

Funda behind this is....lets say a war starts and we cant be supported from the mainland US for some reason.

At the time, HAL gets into overdrive and knows how to make the kit.

Transfer of Knowledge is not possible to much of a degree, as far as I know. most companies like to do cutting edge stuff in house, owning the patents, owning trade secrets. There is a lot of experience, careers and expertise involved.

In short, George, India does not want the "why you did what you did" knowledge. It just requires the "what to do, to build the plane from scratch" knowledge in order to support the country's war-making-machine in times of lack of support.

[GeorgeWelch]

Funda behind this is....lets say a war starts and we cant be supported from the mainland US for some reason.

Then you're screwed.

As the MKI tire incident demonstrated, even when you have ToT, it is simply not possible to make every single piece.

At the time, HAL gets into overdrive and knows how to make the kit.

Most likely any war would be over before HAL could draft a memo to start the process.

In short, George, India does not want the "why you did what you did" knowledge. It just requires the "what to do, to build the plane from scratch" knowledge in order to support the country's war-making-machine in times of lack of support.

That's a nice goal, but not realistic.

In the real world there are 2 ways to insulate yourself from such issues:
1. Build up a large supply of spares.
2. Choose a source country that won't be intimidated by your enemy and has the power to make sure parts get delivered in the face of opposition.

Of course the ultimate solution is to develop your aerospace industry so everything from design to production is done locally, but India isn't there yet and won't be in the immediate future.

What India most desperately needs is time, and the SH would be a way to help give India the time it needs.

[member_20292]

That's a nice goal, but not realistic.

In the real world there are 2 ways to insulate yourself from such issues:
1. Build up a large supply of spares.
2. Choose a source country that won't be intimidated by your enemy and has the power to make sure parts get delivered in the face of opposition.

Chips etc. are all designed and some of them fabricated in Portland, Silicon Valley.

But the vast majority of chip making in the world takes place in East Asia. I dont believe that Foxconn has the "ab initio" tech, nor the ability , nor the tendency to do that research.

But they do have the manufacturing technology to get thousands on chips into your and my smart phones.

Theres a difference. The manufacturing technology is what allows them to make mass market chips. Intel will not do that. They stick to the higher end of things. And wisely so.

So, India does not want the latest and greatest thing from Sandia national labs. it does not want the latest from Lokmart Boeing labs. It wants the "manufacturing technology" . Not the actual science itself.


So, I disagree with you, and wonder why you are not convinced of the simplest mechanism of transfer of technology and subsequent manufacture, WITHOUT transfer of knowledge of the initial science that goes behind the design of arms.

Putting it another way, India wants an India based plant to make 35 F 18's a year , just like the plant in St Louis Missouri does. It does not want a huge Boeing RnD lab in Bangalore.

[GeorgeWelch]

So, India does not want the latest and greatest thing from Sandia national labs. it does not want the latest from Lokmart Boeing labs. It wants the "manufacturing technology" . Not the actual science itself.

India already has the "manufacturing technology", it builds the MKI. What exactly do you think is missing?

So, I disagree with you, and wonder why you are not convinced of the simplest mechanism of transfer of technology and subsequent manufacture, WITHOUT transfer of knowledge of the initial science that goes behind the design of arms.

Because even the 'simplest' is not simple at all, as I have a feeling you're about to discover (again).

India needs something fast to build up squadron numbers while remaining affordable. That's not going to happen if you insist on screwdriver assembly that even still doesn't really gain you anything.

India has the fighter they assemble locally (MKI) and it has true development projects to expand their capabilities (LCA, MCA, PAK-FA). The SH won't and isn't needed to contribute to either of those, rather it's simply to arrest falling squadron numbers.

If you start making it more than that you risk getting it mired in negotiations and politics and budget issues.

Putting it another way, India wants an India based plant to make 35 F 18's a year , just like the plant in St Louis Missouri does. It does not want a huge Boeing RnD lab in Bangalore.

Why?

Even if you assemble the parts locally, you're still having to import the parts.

HAL already knows how to assemble manufacturer-supplied parts, they have a long and distinguished history of doing just that.

Doing it for one more plane does nothing to advance HAL's abilities.

[member_20292]

India already has the "manufacturing technology", it builds the MKI. What exactly do you think is missing?

It is missing the technology to build, from ground up. I.e from the sheet metal up, the F 18 or the Rafale.

What we have got for the MKI, we want from the MRCA.

Because even the 'simplest' is not simple at all, as I have a feeling you're about to discover (again).

India needs something fast to build up squadron numbers while remaining affordable. That's not going to happen if you insist on screwdriver assembly that even still doesn't really gain you anything.

Agreed. Simple is not that simple. Sure we need fast Walmart like , premade F 18s. But it will not happen that way. Too much in the way of that happening.

You might think (and I might think) and the IAF might think..."to hell with HAL DRDO and the OFB. I want my arms and I want them now."

But in general, there is a strong element of swadeshi that people want in their defence products. And thus the contracts are drafted in that manner.

Why?

Even if you assemble the parts locally, you're still having to import the parts.

HAL already knows how to assemble manufacturer-supplied parts, they have a long and distinguished history of doing just that.

because TOT is not that (for the umpteenth time). Its not assembly from CKDs and SKDs .

[member_20292]

Mercedes, when it first came to India, partnered with TATA motors in Pune to get their CKDs assembled. Then they started doing more of the work in Pune, and now most of the car is made in India.

Note; they do not have an AMG -research unit here to tune the cars to the latest and greatest performance. But they do manufacture from Indian steel, and use Indian technology and Indian workers to do most of the work.

That is ToT.

Even in the absence of AMG, or in the chance that you cannot get the performance parts from them in Germany, you can, manufacture enough Mercs in India to do the job.

[member_20453]

SH all the way, scrap the MRCA, buy the Raffy off the shelf right now and discuss the details later is the wrst idea. With well documented and written agreements the French have seriously fouled up the Scorpene deal, no way will the Rafale deal go smoothly in such an event. All agreements before hand please.

Though France is a strategic partner, aligning with it has no significant advantage and on the long run little gain for India. Time to open up serious chats with Unkil, a 125-200 SH International deal with joint develmopment of upgrade + Indian funding for them will give us significant advantages to both the warfighters and the industry. With such a large deal, they will more importantly drop the intrusive agreements. Aligning with unkil will automatically bring loose motion response for Chi-Pak pigs.

[vishvak]

Since there was a transparent selection process for MMRCA tender, the issue of finance is secondary.

If finance is the problem then why purchase other fighter jets in bulk. Better have some off the shelf and others slowly inducted like Su-30MKI over time.

If the question is of number of fighter jets/engines then induct a few more Su-30 MKI and then slow-induction of Rafael over time.

To align with USA that has sold weapons and fighter jets, even donated some arms, to pakis and is bankrolling pakistan against the backdrop of terrorism makes no sense.

[Sagar G]

Time to open up serious chats with Unkil, a 125-200 SH International deal with joint develmopment of upgrade + Indian funding for them will give us significant advantages to both the warfighters and the industry. With such a large deal, they will more importantly drop the intrusive agreements.

Wishful thinking at it's best

Unkil wasn't ready to transfer tech for Javelin and here people are daydreaming of them doing ToT for state of the art tech in aerospace sector.

[GeorgeWelch]

India already has the "manufacturing technology", it builds the MKI. What exactly do you think is missing?

It is missing the technology to build, from ground up. I.e from the sheet metal up, the F 18 or the Rafale.

You already have at least 3 projects underway to do just that.

Right now though, it's more important to arrest falling squadron numbers than to have 4 projects aimed at helping you build an aircraft from the ground up.

Both are important goals, but that's the point, they're BOTH important. You can't keep sacrificing the immediate needs of the airforce on the altar of the future of the development of the aerospace industry.

The aerospace industry will be ready eventually, but in the mean time the air force needs real fighters that are ready to go.

Agreed. Simple is not that simple. Sure we need fast Walmart like , premade F 18s. But it will not happen that way. Too much in the way of that happening.

You might think (and I might think) and the IAF might think..."to hell with HAL DRDO and the OFB. I want my arms and I want them now."

But in general, there is a strong element of swadeshi that people want in their defence products. And thus the contracts are drafted in that manner.

Obviously scrapping MRCA at this point would be hugely difficult.

But it would still be magnitudes easier than getting something useful out of MRCA in the next decade.

[SaiK]

If we are planning into a quick buy scheme, okay with end-user agreements [perhaps modified fair enough for use against our enemies at will], through FMS route, get couple of fully loaded SH-India version. Best bang for the buck, that comes with certain hyde and jackle claws. But, for our enemies, these claws can be engaged, as our super duper babooze-dom is so stupid to lose our focus on squadron numbers.

The name game should give enough scare to our chippanda nation and keep the strike and regular NATO exercise participation that much easier. IAF gets a nice arrangement for participation in NATO exercise, (basically suggesting this under our unilateral thoughts), and interoperability concerns.

Now, we can think about super sukhois to LCA-Mk3(twin engined) as well... at its own pace. We only need two to three squadrons bump up! SH is ideal!

[GeorgeWelch]

Right now though, it's more important to arrest falling squadron numbers

that's taken care of additional orders of su/jag reengine and LCA when it comes thru.

India can't afford an all MKI airforce, Jag re-engine only helps slow the decline and does nothing to help with fighter strength and LCA is no closer than MRCA.

Nobody is going to fight a full fledged war anytime soon.

Glad that's settled.

[venku_Raj]

India working on contract details as Rafale deal inches closer

India is ironing out contract details on a purchase of French Rafale fighter jets that has been under negotiation over the past year, Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid said during a visit to Paris on Thursday, suggesting that a deal could be close.

India chose Dassault Aviation’s (AVMD.PA) Rafale for a possible 126-plane order in January 2012 ahead of the competing Eurofighter Typhoon (EAD.PA) (SIFI.MI) (BAES.L) and started exclusive talks, lifting hopes in France of a sale that would restore the lustre of its aviation industry.

Khurshid – on his first visit to France where he will meet President Francois Hollande on Friday – said progress was being made on the deal, worth around $15 billion, but did not say when it could be signed nor what it would entail.

“We know a good French wine takes time to mature and so do good contracts,” he told reporters. “Contract details are being worked out. A decision has already been taken.”

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius also said the talks “were advancing well.”

Asked about the status of the deal, a Dassault spokesman said the company remained positive.

“Relations between India and Dassault are solid and long-standing, we’re confident,” the spokesman said.

In December, Dassault Chief Executive Charles Edelstenne said he was “relatively optimistic” the deal would soon wrap up despite tough negotiations.

Hollande will visit the United Arab Emirates next week, and is also courting Brazil, as Paris strives to ink a first sale of Rafales, billed as some of the most effective fighter jets in the world but also among the most expensive.

Former President Nicolas Sarkozy took personal charge of trying to market Rafales abroad in 2007 after the embarrassing failure of a bid to sell $2 billion of the jets to Morocco.

India already owns more than 50 French Mirage jets as it seeks to upgrade its largely Soviet-era air force and navy.

LINK

[Manish_Sharma]

Time to open up serious chats with Unkil, a 125-200 SH International deal with joint develmopment of upgrade + Indian funding for them will give us significant advantages to both the warfighters and the industry. With such a large deal, they will more importantly drop the intrusive agreements.

Wishful thinking at it's best

Unkil wasn't ready to transfer tech for Javelin and here people are daydreaming of them doing ToT for state of the art tech in aerospace sector.

US even is not ready to give number of launchers wanted by us, they refused point blank at MoD's request for number of launchers for missiles. No patriotic deshvasi can support buying MMRCA from these b@$tards.

[Manish_Sharma]

We only need two to three squadrons bump up! SH is ideal!

phat panting teens couldn't even take off in Leh , they're inferior product only US supporting infra makes them look super-duper.

Here again I post Shri Hnairs comment :

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1078469

Acharayaji, the takleef is this - currently. Khan power is personified by two things amongst World public. Its aircraft carrier sailing ominously over a calm sea and the multi-role fighters that dash off to smote "God's righteous anger". Forget the fact that those 10s of bus-size satellites make it all possible. In fact no lowly tinpot cringes when these satellites silently flit over their heads. But the stock footage of roaring teen fighters and stock footage of a carrier with lots of conveniently parked craft in CNN makes them assume the worst......

So any number of orders for transports is not going to get khan to acknowledge that their wazikashi is blunt. Especially when said by an SDRE warrior with a barely straight face. There is going to be bitterness against India. Bitterness of a kind that would make a paki jihadi or Osamy-mama contemplate apostasy.....

Geez, I cant afford a 2$ meal, but boy am I laughing

[tushar_m]

We only need two to three squadrons bump up! SH is ideal!

phat panting teens couldn't even take off in Leh , they're inferior product only US supporting infra makes them look super-duper.

we can always go for SH say 40-50 & then later convert it to "growler",Australia is doing same with its 12 SH(out of 24) when f35 arrives.

[AmitG]

Why not F-16 Block 60 which was offered. Around 40-60 of them could be used to fill in the numbers. What we should realize is that no country will be willing to part with technology for which they have invested billions of dollars, just because we are ready to pay for it. And with the offsets, we are not paying them directly....what we are saying is that take the money and invest back 30% of it in India...

If we can get the F-16 without the AESA radar (if it requires to be sent to US to reprogram), then it will definitely boost the numbers. The Pakis are getting the Block 52 which we feel is a considerable adversary.

[SaiK]

For all the dreams to flourish, we need couple of LCA squadrons with IAF, and IAF engaging the DRDO team with additional job. That way, we can talk more on technology. Else these chew masters will chew us harder and harder till we lose all bones.

[shyamd]

Hearing news that IAF just upped Rafale order to 189 - up from the original number. earlier there was debate about the split order but now looks like IAF wants Rafale