Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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nakul
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nakul »

It is not a purely technical decision like the first stage of the MMRCA. US is offering partnership to Embraer via Boeing. France is committing to upgrading Brazil's military inc submarines. There is a lot of political bargaining in the deal. In contrast, the EF & Rafale were purely technical decisions. The likely winner for Brazil might be the one who makes a better political offer unlike india, where price was the main criterion between EF & Rafale.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

I am glad ex-president Patil didnt herself select the MRCA on political grounds, or drawing chits out of a glass bowl :) what a farce the brazilian thing is - thats what happens when you have no real enemies, no real need to prepare for a serious war ... everything becomes a politico-economic munnagiri. Brazil has long promised to be a good boy - no development of long range missiles or nuclear weapons.

one wishes them good luck on being a global pawa - neither the economic heft of japan nor the nasty attitude of cheen/bear or the deterrence of Yindia.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nakul »

I am glad ex-president Patil didnt herself select the MRCA on political grounds, or drawing chits out of a glass bowl
The Brazilian president declared Rafale to be the winner after visiting France. There was a lot of buzz since the military was not happy. Then there was the Boeing Embraer partnership in the balance. They should take a leaf out of Chavez's book. Shout Death to America, get a couple of squadrons of Su 35 and call it a day.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

With a solid manufacturing base of Embraer, they still have not started anything like LCA. This is really another point that we should note. HAL should look at Embraer for the products that they are strong in, and start assimilation.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nakul »

Saraswat already mentioned that the Embraer based AEW&C would be exported. We could also involve them in the civilian planes to be built. A combined HAL / Embraer plane could potentially diversify our sources from the traditional powers - Russia & US. It would also be a more research oriented partnership if we can get a few designs to be built from scratch.

The Brazilian defence minister was curious to know about our choice of the Rafale. If the price is low, they could potentially get access to HAL manufactured Rafales. I think France would not stop it as it faces tough competition from Boeing. Sell them a few Shivaliks with Brahmos to keep their maritime resources safe.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

I would sell LCA-Mk3 rather than Rafales, should a decision to sell indic fighter jets. We all should know Rafale is only a gap filler.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

SaiK wrote:With a solid manufacturing base of Embraer, they still have not started anything like LCA. This is really another point that we should note. HAL should look at Embraer for the products that they are strong in, and start assimilation.
+ 100

thats what is happening. we collaborate on scientific research with everyone and defence too. we will take over those industries in due course.
Last edited by member_20292 on 26 Sep 2012 23:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Dassault’s Victory in India Cornering EADS-BAE Turns Boomerang
By Andrea Rothman and Robert Wall on September 25, 2012

Dassault Aviation SA (AM)’s biggest corporate coup risks turning into a pyrrhic victory.

The French company was chosen by India in January to supply at least 126 Rafale jets valued at $11 billion, the first export order for the warplane and a defeat for the Typhoon built by a group including European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. and BAE Systems Plc. (BA/) That loss helped bring EADS and BAE together to plot a merger that now threatens to corner Dassault.

Combining EADS and BAE would dwarf smaller European aerospace and defense rivals including Dassault, a company in which EADS owns a 46 percent non-voting right. Dassault Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne and one of his most senior lieutenants, Eric Trappier, will meet French Economics Minister Pierre Moscovici today to seek assurance that Dassault doesn’t get crushed by a European defense champion in the making.

“There are big questions surrounding the fate of Dassault,” said Yan Derocles, an analyst at Oddo Securities in Paris. “If BAE joins EADS, Dassault may be marginalized.”

<SNIP>

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... -boomerang
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

^^good decision by India.. now we can offer them to participate in FGFA program from 50:50 to 25:24:51 [russkie:france:indiski]. show them friends in hand, and this powerful combo can beat the heck outta Eu union. All depends on letting that french ego lowered a bit.

France could play important role in stealth, engines and avionics including major electronics especially distributed computing and AlGaN radar, however it has to be played with indiskie designs.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Enders makes no progress in Berlin

By Quentin Peel in Berlin and Carola Hoyos in London
September 26, 2012 3:04 pm

Tom Enders, chief executive of EADS, the Franco-German aerospace company, on Wednesday failed to make progress in persuading key members of the German parliament to back his company’s tie-up with BAE Systems, the UK defence group.

In a closed-door meeting he sought to reassure deputies that the merger would not affect jobs in Germany, while arguing forcefully for a future company structure that would be free from government interference in daily decision-making.

But parliamentarians who attended the 90-minute questioning at the Bundestag’s economics committee said the session left “more questions than answers” over the planned merger, after a government minister told them it was “not a question of how, but whether” the plan would go ahead.

<SNIP>

One powerful group within France’s industrial elite also appears to have started to lobby against the deal. Charles Edelstenne, chief executive of Dassault, which produce’s France’s Rafale jet fighter, and Eric Trappier, a senior executive, this week met Pierre Moscovici, France’s economics minister.

<SNIP>

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/307f0c76-07dd ... z27duEntPD
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

yes... no....yes..
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

german mistrust of the ango-US centric BAE might scupper this deal.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kapil »

Today is the 10th anniversary of the induction of the Su-30 MKI into the IAF.
The first unit to operate the type, 20 Sqn Lightnings , is now the Operational Conversion Unit of the Fleet where newly minted pilots go to fly and fight the Su 30 MKI.
I still recall seeing the Su-30 MKI prototype being demoed by Vyachaslev Averyanov at Aero India 2001 and wondering when will it turn up in IAF Markings.
It did,with a boom, on Sep 27,2002 at Lohegaon,Pune. All the pilots were from different backgrounds,pipelined through the Su30 Ks of 24 Sqn which was the co-;located unit.

It's been an incredible journey and congratulations,compliments and thanks are due to all the people involved.
From visionary IAF officers who grabbed this when it was offered by the Russians.To the Techies and the aircrews who designed it to be what they wished for.To third nation vendors who collabrated on this.
To maligned Babus,politicians,DPSUs who pulled together when needed.
To the ground crews who kept the aircraft superbly maintained in deployments to France,UK,Continental US and other countries en route.

The magnificient men who fly them to the edge and beyond.

Let this be the template for future inductions of high tech multi-national origin platforms.It can and will be bettered.

It has been a long incredible,painful and at at the same time an exhilarating trip for the IAF.

Some squadrons converted, some got re-raised.
Lightnings, Rhinos , Hunting Hawks , Pursoots , Lions , Trisonics , Winged Arrows and now Desert Tigers.

You have come a long way Baby!
8)


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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Front-line Rafale-M successfully test-fires Exocet
By Henri-Pierre Grolleau, Brest
9/27/2012

An MBDA Exocet AM 39 Block 2 Mod 2 anti-ship missile was test-fired from an operational Dassault Aviation Rafale-M multirole fighter of the French Navy (Marine Nationale) for the first time on 19 September.

Flying from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle , the Rafale launched the Exocet at a target in the L'ile du Levant missile test range, near Toulon, operated by the Délégation Générale pour l'Armement (DGA), scoring a direct hit.

<snipped details of tested weapon and avionics>

The Exocet is now cleared for operational use by the French Navy's two frontline Rafale units – Flottilles 11F and 12F – equipped with the F3 Standard version of Rafale-M. As a result, the Super Etendard Modernisé, which up to now had provided the Exocet launch platform, will be gradually withdrawn from service.

http://www.janes.com/products/janes/def ... 1065971821
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

School of hard knocks
Sep 27, 2012

Bharat Karnad

"The lessons of Operation Vijay other than the value of self-reliance are that no foreign country will pass on professional secrets"

http://www.asianage.com/columnists/scho ... knocks-632

George Tanham’s scathing 1995 RAND report on the Indian Air Force excoriated the service leadership for much of the service’s ills....

<snip>

It is only after the report was published that Air Headquarters (AHQ) woke up to air war in the modern age and began contemplating tanker aircraft and airborne warning and control systems.

Last week, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace released a monograph by a former RAND staffer, Benjamin S. Lambeth, assessing IAF’s performance in the 1999 Kargil border conflict. It is a straightforward rendition of what happened and how the missions were carried out, coming to what are by now stock conclusions in any study on the Indian military in wars.... because “traditionally Indians do little formal thinking”.

Lambeth refers to the “jugaad” mentality, which all Indian organisations live (and die) by. Had the IAF planners kept abreast of technology developments, such as GPS integrated into the avionics of all fighter aircraft as standard equipment, and if the Tactical Development (TacD) cell, then in Jamnagar (since shifted to Gwalior), had been tasked by AHQ to develop fighter tactics for use in mountains before, rather than after receiving the hard knocks of three aircraft downed in the first three days.... <snip>

But jugaad has limitations, as improvisation by its very nature is a sub-optimal solution..... <snip>

Lambeth, however, exaggerates the role of the US-sourced laser-guided bomb — the Paveway-II. Only nine of these LGBs were dropped during the entire conflict, eight of them by Mirage 2000 and one from a Jaguar and successfully took out the Pakistan Army’s Northern Light Infantry (NLI) battalion headquarters atop Tiger Hill. But destruction, especially of the Muntho Dhalo supply depot and base camp that made sustaining the intrusion impossible, resulted from an innovative use of dumb bombs — the 250 pound bombs left over from when the Ajeet (the licence-production version of the Folland Gnat) air defence fighter carried them in the 1970s. He also does not mention the fact that the LGB kits purchased from the United States by IAF prior to the 1998 nuclear tests had a grievous flaw in one of the internal circuits, which prevented integration of the Paveway with the Mirage 2000 fire control system. Americans refused to help correct the flaw because India was then under US sanctions owing to its nuclear tests the year before. None of these aspects find mention in the Lambeth study.

The innovation worked out by the ASTE (Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment) staff and IAF pilots even as the battle raged was to first correct the circuit and then to drop the bombs in precision-mode using the bracket-mounted bazaar-bought GPS units in the Mirage cockpit with its onboard computer. Lambeth does not relate the story behind this innovation either. IAF asked the French for advice on how to use the dumb bombs on low-value targets. True to their mercenary reputation, the French refused to part with any free advice, even though they had previously used dumb bombs successfully in precisely the manner ASTE-IAF had worked out, and suggested instead that they be given a contract for upgrading the avionics mid-operations!

The Lambeth study states that the initial series of dumb bomb attacks by MiG-23s and MiG-27s were wide off target because of inaccurate target coordinates supplied by the Army. What he does not reveal — perhaps because the senior IAF officers he talked with did not apprise him of this — is how the Army’s 15 Corps spotters risked their lives to close in on the entrenched NLI encampments and dugouts on the ridge line and mountain slopes to get an accurate fix on these targets. This more precise data led to the dumb bombs hitting their marks dead-on in the latter phase of the conflict.

The main lessons of Operation Vijay in Kargil other than the value of self-reliance and preparing for unforeseen tactical missions are that no foreign country will pass on professional secrets. And, as regards the French suppliers, their money-grubbing attitude and their propensity to default on contracts on technology transfer, the Indian government has to ensure that on the Rafale Multi-role Medium-Range Combat Aircraft deal, as I have iterated in this column, the payments be timed with every technology package actually transferred, including not just the source codes and flight control laws, but manufacturing technology for every last sub-assembly and component, and that there are no technology “black boxes”... <snip>

The defence ministry’s Price Negotiation Committees, in past deals, have invariably ended up favouring the foreign supplier because they have not conditioned payouts on suppliers meeting stringent and time-bound technology transfer criteria for the smallest bit connected with the aircraft, and provisions be inserted for cancellation of the deal if technology is not transferred in toto. These sorts of boondoggles cannot be tolerated anymore..... <snip>

The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi

READ THE FULL ARTICLE HERE http://www.asianage.com/columnists/scho ... knocks-632
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nakul »

I had attributed the lack of advanced technology in the IAF due to lack of funds rather than a lackadaisical approach. It is only recently that Indian economy has boomed and the defence budget increased. The article mentions that Paveway was not used since it was expensive. I think this is not the issue any more for the IAF. The economy has improved and the defenve budget (US$ 46 billion) has allowed us to get the latest & greatest (PAK FA will be superseded by FGFA, Rafale F4 for MMRCA).

Here's a comparison of % of GDP approximately spent on defence
USA 4.7%,
China 2%,
Russia 3.9%,
France 3%,
UK 3%,
India 2%

Since our country's economy has improved, we can spend more on defence. Interestingly, the last four countries have similar GDP values as compared to US & China but the difference in defense budgets is largely due to the differences in the share of GDP spent with Russia spending 2x India with similar GDP.

As we go towards homegrown tech, we will get more bang for our buck and allow us to improve our military more. Eg IAF has an capital outlay of $6b which is expected to grow every year by 10-15%. We will be spending 3x that amount for MMRCA alone. Even the FGFA won't be cheap. At US$ 35b, it will give us 13 squadrons of 5th gen fighters. 13 sq of FGFA + 7 sq of Rafale = 20 squadrons. To get to the reqd 42 sq, we will need to get LCA asap.

The other option, which is to increase our budget looks unlikely IMHO. We can continue to imporve our forces on 2% of GDP as long as the economy & indigenisation increases.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Katare »

Nakul,

It's very complicated and often not even possible to meaningfully compare defense spending by countries. Each has their own ways of classifying what is defense spending and what is earning etc.

India leaves out a large amount spent on defense pensions, nuclear devices, strategic missiles and paramilitary forces including Border security forces. Some countries include some of this kind of expense some won't. I think we spend more 3% of our GDP and, IIRC, defense budget is the largest expense in federal budget, second only to interest payments.

It's murkey world and more you try murkier it gets.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Time-wasting video with wicked-cool sound track ("Back in Black" by AC/DC)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

If one considers the budget that Obama or any khan prez could secretly sign for secret services and their command structure, that near 5% is all bull!. I can't think anything less than 20% for khaan defense[it not feels like that amount, but visually see vast defense expense being incurred]... who knows how this 4.7% is being massaged for the world.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nakul »

Image

The Rafale is the first European combat aircraft in operational service equipped with the Thales RBE2 AESA* radar.

The RBE2 AESA brings the Rafale a number of key operational benefits:
  • extended range capabilities supporting low-observable target detection and full use of new weapon systems such as the Meteor air-to-air missile;

    higher reliability for reduced maintenance and lower through-life support costs;

    greater waveform agility for SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) imaging and improved resistance to jamming.
Dassault Aviation and Thales are proud to equip French forces with this advanced radar technology, which is now entering operational service on a European combat aircraft for the first time. The project was completed on time and on budget, and owes its success to exemplary cooperation with the DGA and all the companies involved in the RBE2 AESA programme.

Export versions of the Rafale also incorporate AESA radar technology.

*Active Electronically Scanned Array

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Pages/PressR ... 8&pid=1650
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

^^^^^^
Great news!

More reading about the RBE2 AESA radar....

From Thales website, including link to a brochure on the RBE2....
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/De ... RBE2Radar/

Further reading about AESA radars in general (five pages, click-through at bottom of pages).....
http://defense-update.com/features/du-1 ... aradar.htm
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

So, how did Rafale managed to get the additional power for their GaAs modules?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Katare »

From link above
Very long detection and track ranges

I like the sound of it ---
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Vivek K »

so when will the MRCA deal be signed - 2015?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kmc_chacko »

I think in 2017 after retiring Mig-27s
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ShauryaT »

nakul wrote: The other option, which is to increase our budget looks unlikely IMHO. We can continue to imporve our forces on 2% of GDP as long as the economy & indigenisation increases.
@ 2% it is good for Pakistan. To meet China half way, we have to be spending at 3%, minimum. Change the govt and the budget changes too.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by alexis »

ShauryaT wrote:
nakul wrote: The other option, which is to increase our budget looks unlikely IMHO. We can continue to imporve our forces on 2% of GDP as long as the economy & indigenisation increases.
@ 2% it is good for Pakistan. To meet China half way, we have to be spending at 3%, minimum. Change the govt and the budget changes too.
Just out of curiousity, did NDA or Third front spent more money than UPA as % of GDP for defense?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ShauryaT »

alexis wrote: Just out of curiousity, did NDA or Third front spent more money than UPA as % of GDP for defense?
With NDA , increases by small points. But what you see is real increases, meaning significantly higher than inflation rate. The thing is without adequate reforms, more money alone cannot do much. This is what the NDA govt was not able to do well. George Fernandes got slapped with a charge of a coffin scam and things went downhill from there. After that GF was scared to make any decisions and used to wait for CVC clearance before a decision was made. Things did not rectify, till JS became defense minister but it was too late. Also, whatever reforms even JS did in one year was disbanded by UPA, e.g: Non-lapsing budget for Capital acquisitions.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by tushar_m »

mig 27 retiring when its upgrade option is available & discussed in tons................................

i smell something cooking like a procurement plan for new fighters coming up in next 2-3 years.are

maybe unkil will get a share of new fighters & we will get all the high tech:) low cost:) weapons to deploy in our current & future fleet
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nakul »

Maybe get an additional squadron of Rafales directly from France. Takes care of two issues - speed of induction & decrease risk for pilots. Other than that Tejas Mk I is the easier way out for ground attack aircrafts. Get it in nos & upgrade the avionics 10-15 years down the line or simply sell it to a friendly nation. There will be no shortage if Tejas Mk II is inducted in large numbers (200+).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by RoyG »

tushar_m wrote:mig 27 retiring when its upgrade option is available & discussed in tons................................

i smell something cooking like a procurement plan for new fighters coming up in next 2-3 years.are

maybe unkil will get a share of new fighters & we will get all the high tech:) low cost:) weapons to deploy in our current & future fleet
Uh no. The most logical thing to do is add more su-30 mki. Rafale will take a while and LCA will take forever to induct.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by tushar_m »

we can again not put all the eggs in one basket for example

if suppose 50% of our assets are su30mki & a glitch is detected in one then our 50% fighters will be grounded until investigation is done

point 2 is su30mki is a massive machine will take more maintenance & fuel then any MCA or light fighter.(cost of maintaining the fleet will be high)

point 3 is that IAF (& all other airforces) have a strategy of having 3 types of fighters classes (light,medium,heavy) only su30 will not fulfill that criteria

point 4 is that its airframe was not designed to be stealthy & it will take a lot to get there, better to get a new stealthy fighter right
in next 10-15 years whatever upgrade you do 5 gen will be around & su30mki will face difficulty in competing with them.

(point to be noted i am a massive fan of su30mki)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by sarabpal.s »

IMHO we missing role of AURA UCAV here.i think jaguar & mig27s role would played by UCAV Aura.
quite optimistic but not out of equation
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

Katare wrote:From link above
Very long detection and track ranges

I like the sound of it ---
It does not help.. it only adds an imaginary value to an offensive set, unless it should be classified.
IF we are projecting our power, then any details would help. In specific, like 250km for LCA/M2K type target :wink: , etc .
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nakul »

SaiK wrote:
Katare wrote:From link above
Very long detection and track ranges

I like the sound of it ---
It does not help.. it only adds an imaginary value to an offensive set, unless it should be classified.
IF we are projecting our power, then any details would help.
Its a very clever statement. While it says it is vry long, it does not tell us how long it is. IIRC the Bars radar can detect ships & large planes at ranges greater than 300 km. I don't think this would exceed that. We already entering a network centric phase where the plane radar would be overshadowed by the AEW&C one. The plane should be left to deal with electronic warfare and this is where Rafale can excel.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

:arrow: :arrow: New Awsome High quality RAFALE demo video with in cockpit views. The maneuverability demonstrated is pretty amazing.

http://vimeo.com/50506313
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

real good HD quality.. that engine shut off for 5 to 7 seconds is awesome at 1:20ish.
I wish they can show one similar video with all things loaded up full MTOW!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Shrinivasan »

arthuro wrote::arrow: :arrow: New Awsome High quality RAFALE demo video with in cockpit views. The maneuverability demonstrated is pretty amazing.
http://vimeo.com/50506313
Awesome video, great sound quality... i love this bird... hope this deal gets signed quickly.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

France always does good video presentation of their birds.. whatever they do with the camera, must have hired real pros to get this done.. similarly was the mirage one some years back.. excellent low flying over the sea etc, was fantastic.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Shrinivasan »

SaiK wrote:France always does good video presentation of their birds.. whatever they do with the camera, must have hired real pros to get this done.. similarly was the mirage one some years back.. excellent low flying over the sea etc, was fantastic.
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