Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[NRao]

KM,

What diff does that make? The end result is that it hurts India. THAT is all that matters. Point being, on their side, they all have acted in their own interest.

(As a total aside, on similar topic, in 1996-7 I had recommended (then) that India take over the Chittagong Tracts from BD and grant Baluchistan Indian statehood. Again the point - related to the current "discussion" - being - act. Do something that matters.)

[Karan M]

Agree, I was just explaining that the "hurt India" is relative. For instance, which "hurts India more". France selling 3 Agosta -90s with Exocets and a few upgrades for old in the tooth aircraft OR US providing several squadrons of F-16s with weapons PLUS artillery PLUS choppers PLUS infantry systems/TOW missiles PLUS P3s and Harpoons PLUS attack choppers PLUS huge dollops of cash which effectively allow Pak to move from a has been to somewhat of a contender all in the space of a decade?

The quantum of support by the US makes all others pale into insignificance, and hence the angst by desi folks

[vishvak]

All this great game in Indian neighborhood or string of pearls around Indian shores or propping up failed state of pakigs etc etc is assumed to a choice available as fair diplomacy by paki's fourfathers when it is clearly not. All these and such steps are anti-India clearly.

[NRao]

I know - we are going through the very same arguments made in 1995ish. My position then was India can deal with the US - not likely (in 1995). India can deal with Pakiland - more than likely, therefore grant Statehood to Baluch.

Anyways, I think I am done. We will now go in circles.

[KrishnaK]

Agree, I was just explaining that the "hurt India" is relative. For instance, which "hurts India more". France selling 3 Agosta -90s with Exocets and a few upgrades for old in the tooth aircraft OR US providing several squadrons of F-16s with weapons PLUS artillery PLUS choppers PLUS infantry systems/TOW missiles PLUS P3s and Harpoons PLUS attack choppers PLUS huge dollops of cash which effectively allow Pak to move from a has been to somewhat of a contender all in the space of a decade?

The quantum of support by the US makes all others pale into insignificance, and hence the angst by desi folks

We let pakistan acquire nuclear capability.

[negi]

Although OT but there is more than that there is no equal equal in the first place we cannot use a wide brush. French were not for sanctions against us in 1998, they SELL to TSP but then do not block sales to us. US has blocked RU sale of cryogenic engine by Glavaskosmos to us back in 90s (only a batch of 2/4 engines was sold ) , it delayed our AWACS acquisition from Israel, it has crippled our Sea King fleet and Hawks initially because munna UK was told to do so. To an uninformed by stander it might appear as things have changed for good and it views India differently but make no mistake that has happened not because of a change of heart but because our stick has grown longer both in economic as well as military terms it's sanctions only slowed us but did not cripple us and it knows that in long term they were counterproductive hence they were revoked it has not extended the same leniency to lesser capable nation which have been forced to succumb to it's whims either by sanctions or by force. Had it not been for our MIL might how difficult it was to justify a military siege of communal rabid Hindus and bring democracy to us on lines of Iraq or Af-Pak ? That thought has crossed the pentagon's radar more than once and 1971 was one such occasion when they came close to it.

[Karan M]

Agree, I was just explaining that the "hurt India" is relative. For instance, which "hurts India more". France selling 3 Agosta -90s with Exocets and a few upgrades for old in the tooth aircraft OR US providing several squadrons of F-16s with weapons PLUS artillery PLUS choppers PLUS infantry systems/TOW missiles PLUS P3s and Harpoons PLUS attack choppers PLUS huge dollops of cash which effectively allow Pak to move from a has been to somewhat of a contender all in the space of a decade?

The quantum of support by the US makes all others pale into insignificance, and hence the angst by desi folks

We let pakistan acquire nuclear capability.

Who is "we" here..India or the US.. Are you comparing India's inaction (a contentious theme by itself, as the US was again noted to have intervened to have prevented Indian action) versus the US's action.. kind of confusing as how are the two comparable.. Or are you saying that the US let Pakistan acquire nuclear capability, which does have some level of documented support (turn a blind eye to whats going on sort of stuff).

[abhik]

Data points:- US did sanction Pakistan right after it has served its purpose in the Soviet-Afghan war.
The French has a base in the UAE i.e. offer protection to a state with which has often worked against our interests.

[Viv S]

Data points:- US did sanction Pakistan right after it has served its purpose in the Soviet-Afghan war.

Almost instantaneously after. Barely had the hand shaking and back-clapping ended, that the Pakistan was told to cinch up the belt.



Timeline


January 1987: US aid to Pakistan peaks at over $4 billion for the year.

February 1988: Gorbachev announces withdrawal from Afghanistan.

February 1989: Last of the Soviets pull out from Afghanistan.

July 1989: Bush informs Pakistan that all aid is being cut off, while Bhutto experiences a 'feeling of disbelief'.

October 1990: US imposes formal sanctions on Pakistan including suspending the transfer of F-16s to PAF, while still retaining the funds received for the aircraft (though the latter would slowly returned in dribbles of aid after repeated protestations of daylight robbery from Islamabad ).






The tough, albeit late, new American policy toward a nuclear-armed Pakistan, as it was relayed by President Bush to Ms. Bhutto, did not play well in Islamabad. “The Paks understood us better than we understood ourselves,” one informed American official explained. “They knew that once the Soviets were whipped in Afghanistan we wouldn’t need them anymore. Would we unilaterally defend Pakistan? Never. Our relationship with Pakistan was to counter the Soviet-Indian relationship. The Pakistanis knew that time was limited. And that’s why they went balls out on the nuclear program. Benazir never had a chance. If they held back the bomb from us, they could have held it back from her as well. It was too serious.”


The New Yorker (Its a good article, well worth a read)

[Viv S]

Heck even despite their 'free' F-16s, the Pakistani would almost be dazed coming out of this surreal decade.

Back in 2001, Afghanistan was their backyard and nursery for insurgents to be funneled into a burning J&K. In come the Americans, offering to show the Paks the wonders of the stone age.

Little over the decade later, Kashmir is in relative peace, the Pakistani army has a new unfriendly (if not outright hostile) army on their western front, 200,000 strong and growing, while an even more brutal offshoot Taliban as well as their traditional lackeys are fighting to take over their own state.

No wonder they can't wrap their heads around it.

[Viv S]

Are you comparing India's inaction (a contentious theme by itself, as the US was again noted to have intervened to have prevented Indian action)

How so? Even though reports on the same haven't been officially collaborated, apparently the Israelis were planning a strike on Kahuta in the early 80s but called it off after India didn't commit to the proposal.

I'd imagine the issue was the same as that faced by the western powers viz. Iran; there is no reliable way to permanent destroy the program. Its more likely to just move underground after a period of rebuilding.

[Lalmohan]

so time and again, unkil does special favours for munna, but every time munna is left feeling that unkil has stabbed him in the back
looks like neither unkil nor munna ever learn from this disasterous relationship

[vishvak]

Failed munna and Unkil may play along made for each other love song. But hypocrite behavior is not to be excused for tech power and financial wizardry.

For people who talk of no permanent friends nor enemies but only permanent interests, how do the factors such as -nuke and missile smuggling by pakis, passing structures and votes against India when Hindus were genocided in East paki, support of terror state pak and overlooking terrorism/serial-blasts/ethnic-cleansing/etc & India specific buildup- count??

Hindu genocide in east paki is an example here.

In particular, how much weight is given to such factors that affect decades of politics and wars even while excuses are given to make Indian state appear as part of problem.

Also, what is weights given to factors such as 'balance', co-religionists, economic partnership Each of these are excuses that project increase of paki importance while completely ignoring Indian side -
balance- to reduce Indian strengths wrt paki and increase paki support at same time
co-reliogionists - ignore others religions and people completely
economic interests- others not in picture.

Edit:added word count??

[KrishnaK]

Who is "we" here..India or the US.. Are you comparing India's inaction (a contentious theme by itself, as the US was again noted to have intervened to have prevented Indian action) versus the US's action.. kind of confusing as how are the two comparable.. Or are you saying that the US let Pakistan acquire nuclear capability, which does have some level of documented support (turn a dblind eye to whats going on sort of stuff).

We being India, Karan. I haven't started referring to the US as we, just yet . My point was the one incident that really mattered was the Pakis getting nukes. We should have tried our utmost to prevent that, even at the threat of all out war. US meddling as a reason for inaction doesn't count.

Once they acquired it, brandishing the bums about while pretending to be crazy was always going to work with the US. I think it works well on us too. I don't think the rest count for much really. We didn't attack Pakistan after the Parliament attack, Kaluchak, 26/11. We're not going to either. The policy of managing Pakistan has been mostly outsourced to the US and we're a willing party to that deal.

The US certainly contributed to all this mostly by omission. But karma spares no one, and the US has paid a steep price in the form of body bags and humiliation in Afghanistan.

[Karan M]

How so? Even though reports on the same haven't been officially collaborated, apparently the Israelis were planning a strike on Kahuta in the early 80s but called it off after India didn't commit to the proposal.

I'd imagine the issue was the same as that faced by the western powers viz. Iran; there is no reliable way to permanent destroy the program. Its more likely to just move underground after a period of rebuilding

The Kahuta strike was called off under Khan pressure Viv S.

[Karan M]

We being India, Karan. I haven't started referring to the US as we, just yet . My point was the one incident that really mattered was the Pakis getting nukes. We should have tried our utmost to prevent that, even at the threat of all out war. US meddling as a reason for inaction doesn't count.

So India didn't do enough to prevent the Pak from getting nukes, how does that excuse the Khan from also looking the other way when they did (while they piled on India) and also from giving Pakistan both conventional weaponry AND money, that allows it to build up its n-arsenal?

Once they acquired it, brandishing the bums about while pretending to be crazy was always going to work with the US. I think it works well on us too. I don't think the rest count for much really. We didn't attack Pakistan after the Parliament attack, Kaluchak, 26/11. We're not going to either. The policy of managing Pakistan has been mostly outsourced to the US and we're a willing party to that deal.

The US certainly contributed to all this mostly by omission. But karma spares no one, and the US has paid a steep price in the form of body bags and humiliation in Afghanistan.

Here I think you are missing the point that if Unkil had not repeatedly propped up Pak, it would have been far weaker than it currently is, and hence its ability to cause mischief or pose a massive threat to India, would have been severely curtailed.

By giving them both weaponry AND money, the Khan has ensured that Pak has the resources to spare to hugely boost its warfighting capability, which gives the Paks the leeway to be bigger terrorists.

[negi]

Well the argument sounds like it is a girl's mistake that she got raped , she did not resist hard enough. Sahi hai !

[Eric Leiderman]

the Katrina thread is veering off track

[PratikDas]

Perhaps it is, but there is method to the madness in the train of thought that brought the thread to this point.

negi ji's analogy is actually quite apt. In fact, if you consider the number of Indian lives lost by a nuclear-gifted and emboldened Pakistan, negi ji's analogy is actually an understatement.

While I understand the need to stick to discussion pertaining to the Rafale, I would request the mods to not move the divergent posts thus far.

[Philip]

Yes,this is a key point in the debate,where the US turned a "Clintonian eye" towards the Sino-Pak N-proliferation,because Clinton was being bankrolled by the PRC using as agent the daughter of the general heading Chinese intel who had free access to the White House! Clinton gave China a clean card on N-proliferation because the PRC outsourced Paki N-proliferation to its bum-chum NoKo,who delivered the Ding-Dongs to Pak who passed them off as indigenous missiles.Just go through the story.

http://michellemalkin.com/2010/01/05/a- ... y-returns/

A Chinagate/Clinton crony returns

By Michelle Malkin • January 5, 2010

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has no idea how Chinagate scandal figure and old family friend James Riady found his way back into the country this year.

No idea whatsoever, according to the Washington Post:

In March 2004, James Riady, an Indonesian tycoon and devout Christian, received an honorary doctorate from Ouachita Baptist University in Arkansas. The university — which has a scholarship program funded by the Indonesian — didn’t announce the honor. Nor did Riady pick up the diploma in person: He’d been barred from America after pleading guilty in 2001 to a “conspiracy to defraud the United States” through illegal contributions to the campaigns of Bill Clinton and other Democrats.

Last year, however, the Indonesian mogul finally made it to Arkansas. He traveled there during the first of two previously unreported trips he made in 2009 to the United States. He was allowed in only after receiving a waiver from a rule that forbids entry to foreigners guilty of “a crime involving moral turpitude,” a term that government lawyers generally interpret to include fraud.

Riady’s return to the United States poses a prickly question for Hillary Clinton’s State Department: How and why did a foreign billionaire stained by Clinton-era scandals get a U.S. visa after being kept out for so long under the Bush administration?

Oh, and that $20,000 Riady donated to Bill Clinton’s philanthropic foundation? Nah, no appearance of a quid pro quo there. None whatsoever:

Riady, 52, declined to be interviewed but, in an e-mailed response to written questions, he said the teachings of Christ “inform all that I do.” He said he hadn’t seen the Clintons during his 2009 trips to America but did pay $20,000 to become a member of the Clinton Global Initiative, an annual gathering of prominent figures in politics, business and philanthropy sponsored by Bill Clinton.

A senior State Department official said Hillary Clinton had no knowledge of the decision to let Riady enter the United States. The tycoon’s visa, he said, was issued by the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta after the Indonesian asked to travel to America so that he could attend family graduation ceremonies. Riady, added the official, was granted entry for a “very narrow purpose.”

I know, I know. It’s silly to even entertain the idea that something untoward went on here.

I mean, it’s not like Hillary’s ever intervened before on behalf of her hubby’s donors.

Oh, wait…oops…

Secretary of State appointee Hillary Rodham Clinton intervened at least six times in government issues directly affecting companies and others that later contributed to her husband’s foundation, an Associated Press review of her official correspondence found.

The overlap of names on former President Bill Clinton’s foundation donor list and business interests whose issues she championed raises new questions about potential ethics conflicts between her official actions and her husband’s fundraising. The AP obtained three of the senator’s government letters under the Freedom of Information Act.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jan/12/news/mn-11506

Clinton Donor Riady Pleads Guilty to Conspiracy Charge
January 12, 2001|ROBERT L. JACKSON | TIMES STAFF WRITER

Getting back to the topic of this thread,time is fast running out for the deal to be sealed.The nation is accelerating towards election fever and the failed assassination attempt on Mr.Modi in Patna (human bomber) has only raised the mercury.The famous saying that "a week is a long time in politics" holds good in India too.The IAF current chief is also going into retirement come December.He has been an outspoken and dynamic figure,who has seen many acquisitions particularly on the logistic front,transports being inducted,vastly improving the IAF's airlift capability,revamping old abandoned Himalayan airstrips,acquisition of medium helos,choosing an attack helo,inducting a desi AEW aircraft.However,he still has two months in which to push the Rafale deal as much as possible,leaving it for his successor to complete formalities.If he can help seal the deal,it would be his finest hour.

[KrishnaK]

We being India, Karan. I haven't started referring to the US as we, just yet . My point was the one incident that really mattered was the Pakis getting nukes. We should have tried our utmost to prevent that, even at the threat of all out war. US meddling as a reason for inaction doesn't count.

So India didn't do enough to prevent the Pak from getting nukes, how does that excuse the Khan from also looking the other way when they did (while they piled on India) and also from giving Pakistan both conventional weaponry AND money, that allows it to build up its n-arsenal?

It doesn't excuse the Khan. But is Khan responsible for our security ? If so, why bitch and moan about signing intrusive agreements ? We can't defend ourselves. The piper has a price and must be paid.

Once they acquired it, brandishing the bums about while pretending to be crazy was always going to work with the US. I think it works well on us too. I don't think the rest count for much really. We didn't attack Pakistan after the Parliament attack, Kaluchak, 26/11. We're not going to either. The policy of managing Pakistan has been mostly outsourced to the US and we're a willing party to that deal.

The US certainly contributed to all this mostly by omission. But karma spares no one, and the US has paid a steep price in the form of body bags and humiliation in Afghanistan.

Here I think you are missing the point that if Unkil had not repeatedly propped up Pak, it would have been far weaker than it currently is, and hence its ability to cause mischief or pose a massive threat to India, would have been severely curtailed.

By giving them both weaponry AND money, the Khan has ensured that Pak has the resources to spare to hugely boost its warfighting capability, which gives the Paks the leeway to be bigger terrorists.

No boss, I'm not missing the point at all. None of the US weapons ever granted Pakistan a victory. It is precisely that understanding, including the fact that neither the US nor China would fight on their behalf, that got them to get nukes and start a war of thousand cuts. The shiny american weapons is only so that they don't lose the war inside a week. Right now, the massive threat to India is not the F16s AND Attack Helicopters AND this AND that. It's the nukes that allow Pakistan to get away with intransigence. If what the US has provided Pakistan is a massive threat, China kaise sambhaloge mere bhai ?

There's no point denying that Pakistan will continue to have leverage with the US, even after they withdraw from Afghanistan. The nukes guarantee that. They took it good from the Pakis without so much as a whimper. It's simply because nobody knows how to handle this and the best option is to try and contain and try to postpone the worst case scenario. Our isolationist stance, our closed economy and strategic restraint meant we had no leverage with anybody and we paid for that. We're one of the TSP's many fathers.

We would rather the Khan put us on his knee, feed us some formula, sing us some lori, burp us and put us to sleep. Oh and also give complete access to all their military technology, co-develop their latest and best with you, scrap end user agreements, never so much as scratch india's security interests, treat us as an exceptional country and hand over Kate Upton.

[arijitkm]

the Katrina thread is veering off track

Back on the track.

Increased operational capabilities for Eurofighter Typhoon

Cassidian, the defence division of EADS, has successfully finalized its flight testing of the Eurofighter Typhoon Phase 1 Enhancements (P1E) programme. After an intensive test programme of this First Batch of Enhancements on Instrumented Production Aircraft 4 and 7, this enhancement is confirmed to deliver a robust simultaneous multi-/swing-role capability to the Nations' Air Forces. It will be ready for the customers by the end of 2013.

The testing took place at Cassidian´s Military Air Systems Centers in Manching/Germany and Getafe/Spain, in cooperation with BAE Systems and Alenia Aermacchi. "The Phase 1 Enhancements will provide a significant leap in Eurofighter's operational capabilities. Deploying multiple weapons with attack constraints simultaneously in all weather has never been easier", said Chris Worning, Cassidians Eurofighter Project pilot.

P1E implements full Air-to-Surface capability on Eurofighter Typhoon - including Laser Designator Pod -, full smart bomb integration, modern secure Identification Friend or Foe (Mode 5), improved Radios and Direct Voice Input, Air-to-Surface Helmet Mounted Sight System, improved Air-to-Air capabilities including digital integration of Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles and updated MIDS (Multifunctional Information Distribution System) Datalink functionalities for enhanced interoperability with Coalition Forces.

The Enhancements cover the design, development, qualification and clearance of the first major upgrade after the Main Development Contract. It is a major milestone in the development of Eurofighter Typhoon giving seamless air-to-ground integration to the weapon system and forming the baseline for further enhancements such as AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar and Meteor missile.

[VishalJ]

[NRao]

This is a translation and therefore will not read as was intended in the original article (in French), but the gist should be clear.

Nov 6, 2013 :: Without Rafale export Thales degreases
The Lack of sales Rafale is a threat to the strength of the French military aerospace industry

The electronics group anticipates a sale of the Rafale in India only after 2014. Its subsidiary Thales Airborne Systems (TSA) is preparing a voluntary redundancy plan via the device active employment management (EAM).

The lack of a sale of the Rafale export weighs more on the industrial military aerospace industry. Including Thales and particularly its subsidiary Thales Airborne Systems (TSA), which is moving back to a social device active employment management (EAM). A device that is not strictly a social but facilitates voluntary redundancy, internal mobility, training and made permanently available (light, early retirement). The fourth plan in four years!

The plan would cover more than 200 people who might as well leave TSA over 12 to 18 months, according to our information. Some believe it may even go beyond 400 people in the subsidiary Thales regularly under load activity due to poor sales of the Rafale export. In any case, the inter-meeting Wednesday morning the direction of TSA to do a full update on the GAE both qualitatively and quantitatively.

Trappes, the most affected website

The device, which therefore remains to refine between management and unions TSA, basically consist Elancourt in Yvelines and to a lesser extent the other two sites TSA, Brest and Pessac (Gironde). However, this plan could be stopped or suspended if a Rafale export contract unblocked quickly.

Nevertheless. The trend is downsizing. For six years, TSA has steadily lost employees, who were between 3700 and 3800 end of August 2007. Management expects that the number will rise in August 2014-2800. A reduction of 27%.

Thales does not believe in a quick signing of a Rafale contract in India

How to interpret this new GAE at TSA? Clearly, Thales does not believe in the early signing of a contract in India. "We do not believe it even if we think that the Rafale will eventually be sold in India," explained several sources contacted internally. Hence the GAE ASD. Although the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier - and it is perfectly in his role - doing everything to achieve sign a contract before the parliamentary elections in India.

"With our Indian partners, whether the Ministry of Defence or industrial, we do everything for the contract to be ready before the elections, said Monday Eric Trappier on BFM. Then he returns to the Indian government to decide whether ' he wants to sign before the elections or not to make an election issue and sign it later. "

For its part, the Indian Defence Minister AK Antony, recently acknowledged that the signing of the contract still take time.

And Qatar?

India has chosen the Rafale in January 2012 and continuing negotiations for the purchase of 126 aircraft, including 108 to be assembled by its manufacturing. Dassault recently been attempting to sign before the end of the year. The owner of the aircraft manufacturer said remain "quite optimistic about a speedy conclusion," saying can complete this complex document, which includes manufacturing licenses for the equipment of the airplane during the 2013 fiscal year short in India until the end of March.

However, a quick contract could be signed in Doha. It is in the realm of possibility. And GAE TSA could fall into the water. What would make the happiness of TSA employees and beyond, the entire military aviation industry in suffering for years due to lack of export sales of the Rafale.

[NRao]

Gust: Qatar before India?

These guys seem to be clutching at straws.

[Sancho]

Gust: Qatar before India?

These guys seem to be clutching at straws.

That actually wouldn't be that bad for IAF, which still could benefit from the Qatari decision, by buying their M2K-5s which IAF wanted for a long time anyway. If the cost now would be reasonable, not only the number of crashed M2Ks in IAF could be corrected, but the total number of fighters could be increased again.
One reason why the Qataris might get Rafales earlier, is also the fact that they want to stick with the French versions, while IAF requires more customizations. So instead of just waiting 3 years to get the first Rafale that suits our requirements, we might get a squadron of pretty new M2K-5s first.

[abhik]

We should be looking at UAE's 60+ M2ks too.

[Sancho]

We should be looking at UAE's 60+ M2ks too.

Their decision will take even longer than ours and might end up with high ammount of customisation too, so that is not a fast option for IAF.

[Philip]

Posted elsewhere that I was told by one in the know,that US pressure is delaying the Rafale deal completion.There are both internal (the usual,if you get my meaning) and external-the Paki factor,which is affecting the deal's completion.US pressure to yet again get a US bird in the picture,MMS in favour,but the Saint standing firm,on this and the "usual" factor.Paki factor,sabotage the deal in Pak's interests.Twin bird for Uncle Sam,as Paki cooperation vital for the successful retreat from Afghanistan,Af-Pak.etc.

Immense danger building up from 2014 for India,as Paki establishment turn on the Taliban/Jihadis towards India.Reason,their demands to impose Sharia law in Pak and other ultra-Islamic diktats will not go down well in Pak and may lead to civil conflict.Therefere,the bargain with the Talib/Jihadis,turn the guns against India.Simultaneous moves afoot through Nepal-unable to manage the security aspects of the country, and in Bangladesh,elections soon,where the US of all people is actively supporting the Opposition,the war criminals of '71,pro-Paki regime ,forgetting that 400,000 women were raped by the same species in '71 and millions massacred.The MEA is alert over the developments,despite US diplomats painting the jihadi elements in B'DEsh as boy scouts,but MMS is too weak to implement agreements already signed with the BD govt. due to Mamta's tantrums.Huge covert funding by the yanquis of the Opposition.The current Hasina regime has cooperated hugely with India handing over NE ultras/terrorists to us.If Hasina falls,then we will be facing the same situ as on the paki border/LOC.

We're not even mentioning the Sino-Paki game being played out in Sri Lanka,where huge Saudi funding of jihadis in Kerala is afoot.TN/Kerala very vulnerable to infiltration due to resurgence in LTTE in TN (no thanks to the despicable TN politicos) and arms smuggling into both states for jihadis/IM.The Maldives situ is being engineered by Islamists and the ISI mischief too.China andd Pak want an anti-Indian regime in place and a base there.

Expose of O'Bomber's covert promise to "nudge" India to compromise on J&K ("hand and deliver") otherwise terrorism to continue unabated and in greater intensity-more 26/11s,is a very real possibility.Plans are in the works.Therefore,the Rafale (MMRCA) deal is vital for the IAF's strike power in the immediate future as sev. hundreds of legacy MIGs are to be retired.The armed forces are in a very poor state of readiness,including the IA,

[GeorgeWelch]

Therefore,the Rafale (MMRCA) deal is vital for the IAF's strike power in the immediate future as sev. hundreds of legacy MIGs are to be retired.The armed forces are in a very poor state of readiness,including the IA,

So you're saying all those MKI's are worthless?

How many fast jets do you need to bomb a few insurgent camps?

Are fast jets even the appropriate tool? *cough*drones*cough*

If the IA is in a poor state of readiness with all the MKIs, MiGs, Mirages and Jaguars it has, how will adding yet another type of aircraft improve the situation? Won't it just be yet another aircraft in a poor state of readiness?

[Karan M]

Bwaahahaha

Posted by Austin

Check page 40... Khan wont allow even AESA modules to be repaired in SoKO even after winning a mega 140 F-16 upgrade deal. So much for TOT.
http://in.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416284824

[Philip]

GW,the Chief has expressed himself publicly in no uncertain terms that the Rafael and LCA are vital for the IAF and that there are no plan Bs.I've given stats,no great secret, that 360 MIG-21s,Bisons and MIG-27s will be retiring before 2020 and some may be nursed to last a few years beyond 2020.Even if all 270+ MKIs are in service,they are going to be vastly outnumbered by the hundreds of Russian built SU-30s and SU-27s China has ,apart from reverse-engineered versions of the Flanker.I've posted the views of AMs,analysts,etc.,who have been repeatedly warning us about the impending shortfall both in quality and quantity.Let me repeat just one point made,that from 2020 onwards,"for the first time,the PLAAF will have both qualitative and quantitative superiority over the IAF".

I've also posted today the great haste,no more extensions,for the IOC-2 of the LCA in Dec. being conducted on a war footing by the ADA and HAL,and a few new glitches have to be ironed out.However,one is positive that the attempts will succeed now that a fire has been lit up the backsides of those responsible for the success of the programme.However,the production rate is woeful and unless we build a min. of 16 /yr.,the falling numbers to maintain current fleet strength will not be achieved,let alone the plan to raise the sqds. to 42 in the next decade.A recently retd. AM very recently told us that we are in no position to fight a JV spat with our two mortal enemies and other experts warn us that in a future war with Pak,even limited,there is no guarantee of victory because of the poor state of affairs in the IA,who lack arty in particular,along with other issues which can't be debated in open forums.

The role of air power in our future spats is going to be critical as Maj.Gen.Bakshi has written,and he has recommended not just a parity with China and Pak,but a distinct superiority in capability to overcome our handicaps and adopt an assymetrical approach in the Himalayan/mountainous regions.It is never unwelcome,or a bad thing to have greater,superior firepower or numbers than the enemy,for one its acts as a deterrent against his mischief ,and secondly ,when it matters,it will determine the vital difference between victory and defeat.

[GeorgeWelch]

GW,the Chief has expressed himself publicly in no uncertain terms that the Rafael and LCA are vital for the IAF and that there are no plan Bs

But not because of any Pakistan terrorist agitation, as was your claim.

Even if all 270+ MKIs are in service,they are going to be vastly outnumbered by the hundreds of Russian built SU-30s and SU-27s China has

But you weren't talking about China . . .

[vishvak]

Pakistani terror behavior, however ignored or looked through good/bad/other prism can't be an acceptable civilized behaviour. Even then Indians should account for why pakis are able to do this in terms of backing. Chinese as well should not be making arbitrary claims with power Chinese military has. For a country like India with defensive posture, Indians have to be doubly careful for pakis Chinese arbitrary behaviour and their backers playing politics and sermoning others just to avoid being answerable for such support. So it becomes even more important for any country facing such a situation to be at very least well defended.

[Philip]

GW,increased Paki terror,more 26/11s,bring us dangerously close to a red line that we never crossed after the attack on Parliament during the NDA's rule.There are various scenarios being considered,but the fact remains that as of now,we are very vulnerable,the IA too with lack of arty.Just imagine a large force of thousands of jihadis pushed into the Valley with the full support of the Paki army.Pak will try for quick gains before international pressure forces a cease-fire.Remember that after the yanquis retreat from Afghanistan,the Paki army now fighting against the Talibs in Af-Pak can relocate to the LOC.The IA in a crisis,the IAF with falling numbers,the IN appears to be the only service in good shape,the sub crisis notwithstanding.But here too the ASW helos situ is grave,with 50+ new ASW helos needed and the AW helo scam delaying decisions.

If the Rafale deal is finalised,a quick fix of a sqd. or two of French Rafales (just as we did with the Jags) would be very welcome until new-built Rafales arrive.

[NRao]

IF there is a threat from terrorism - and there is one, there is precious little that can be done via the conventional way - Rafale, subs, etc. So, I do not see the correlation there - some? perhaps, but not too much.

On TSP pushing the limit and then leaning on some "international" pressure only speaks volumes of lack of Indian thinking. IF we on BR can come up with all this logic wonder what is the GoI up to with all her might. Not to even speak about the topic that this was the thinking in 2000 too - what has really happened in 13 (now soon to be 14) years? Silly.

[NRao]

EADS plans up to 6,000 job cuts across Europe

Get EuroFighter at half the price?

[vivek_ahuja]

EADS plans up to 6,000 job cuts across Europe

Get EuroFighter at half the price?

{Begin Rant}
Sigh. Every week I visit this thread to see if the impossible has happened and the deal has been signed. And every week I find detailed analysis by the posters on the need for the Rafale (or any other 4+ / 5 Generation fighter ). But no deal signing.

Now that the LCA is being inducted in a matter of days, can we not just double our bets and hog down on the MKI-LCA combo instead of having every weight category fighter in the spectrum? Get more tankers if they want to increase the endurance and punch of the LCA fleet if they have to?
{End Rant}

But seriously though? Is the Rafale/Eurofighter/Gripen ever going to arrive?

[NRao]

But seriously though? Is the Rafale/Eurofighter/Gripen ever going to arrive?

at the *right* price, one of which:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1554951

Every week I visit this thread

I found it on page 2!!!!! Buried.

[Prem]

EADS plans up to 6,000 job cuts across Europe
Get EuroFighter at half the price?

Instead , if Babbus are smart enough and procactive, we should be hiring few of these good fellows and relocate them in India.